Bard questions

[Salik]

Hello playground,

I'm thinking of playing a bard in our next 3.5 campaign. I want to focus on my music and casting (+ being the party face of course), not so much on melee combat (or ranged, for that matter). I don't know much about bards, but I've read several forum threads.

For my roles of buffing/music/casting, I think the sublime chord prestige class is a given, since it gets me 9th level spells eventually. I also want my inspire courage as high as possible for buffing purposes. After some reading I think the popular build for that is something like

bard 9/virtuoso 1/sublime chord 2/ virtuoso X (advance sublime chord spellcasting).

This only loses me 2 effective bard levels for inspire courage, if I am not mistaken, and gets full sublime chord casting. I notice that as a sublime chord I gain access to new spell levels 2 levels later than a same level wizard, but that is to be expected I guess.

I am not sure about dragonfire inspiration. It sure sounds great, but it costs 2 feats and I think I really am feat-starved here. Also, +1d6 fire damage is not much better than +1 hit/damage, especially if two-handed weapon power attack is available.
- I wonder though, is it possible to have both dragonfire inspiration and the normal inspire courage active? Say, with the lingering song feat? If yes, this sounds really good... but it still costs two feats.

I plan on using the bardic knack ACF together with the jack of all trades feat. Those two should be really helpful in the skills department, which I like. Here are the feats which I am considering (more suggestions are welcome):
dragonfire inspiration (+ dragontouched), jack of all trades, melodic casting, lingering song, song of the heart, lyric spell, versatile spellcaster, force of personality (I plan on dumping WIS).
- Is there anything nice and/or flavorful that I have missed?

Since I am a 9th level bard, I get inspire greatness. With Song of the heart, this can give me or an ally 3 extra hit dice.
- Would the practised spellcaster feat apply here? I don't see why not, if I'm honest.

That would give me four extra caster levels (since I lose a caster level at virtuoso 1). Sublime chord 2 gets the great song of arcane power, which might give me another 4 caster levels.
- Are there any spells which might especially benefit from up to 7 extra caster levels? My greater dispels will be instantly at +15, but I'm looking for other spells which really benefit from high caster levels (I am not very experienced with high level spells)

The Song of Arcane Power requires a high perform check (DC 30 for 4 extra caster levels).
- Are there any tricks to buff my perform check?

At level 12 (where I get the Song) I will have 15 ranks, and maybe a +7 charisma bonus (if I can start with a 18 CHA, not sure. We use PB 30). I think a masterwork instrument gives a +2 circumstance bonus. A songblade (found in Complete Adventurer) gives a +2 enhancement bonus. However, won't I need both hands to use my masterwork instrument?

Anyway, items. A masterwork instrument is a given, I think. The SRD one gives the +2 perform bonus. However, I also found masterwork instruments in Complete Adventurer, which give boni to my bardic music directly. The lute, for instance, gives me +1 effective bard level for music effects. I suppose I have to choose between the music effect and the +2 perform...

For other bard items, I like the vest of legends (+5 effective bard level for music), the badge of valor and either a songblade or a crystal echoblade.
- Any other suggestions?

I'm sure I will have other questions, but for now that's enough I think.

Thanks!

[Kansaschaser]

I am not sure about dragonfire inspiration. It sure sounds great, but it costs 2 feats and I think I really am feat-starved here. Also, +1d6 fire damage is not much better than +1 hit/damage, especially if two-handed weapon power attack is available.
- I wonder though, is it possible to have both dragonfire inspiration and the normal inspire courage active? Say, with the lingering song feat? If yes, this sounds really good... but it still costs two feats.


To get Dragonfire Inspiration, you just need to be of the Dragonblood Subtype. You can do this by playing one of the races listed in the front of the Dragon Magic book, such as a Fireblood Dwarf or a Stonehunter Gnome. My personal favorite is the Silverbrow Human.

My DM always allowed me to do both. EXAMPLE:

-Round 1: Inspire Courage.
-Round 2: Dragonfire Inspiration.
-Round 3-6: Everyone gains bonus to hit from Inspire Courage and bonuse to damage from Dragonfire Inspiration.

[eggs]

My DM always allowed me to do both. EXAMPLE:

-Round 1: Inspire Courage.
-Round 2: Dragonfire Inspiration.
-Round 3-6: Everyone gains bonus to hit from Inspire Courage and bonuse to damage from Dragonfire Inspiration.
Depending on how pedantic the rules readings are, rounds 1 and 2 might need to be switched (DFI changes the IC bonus, so if there's an existing IC effect, its bonus could be argued to swap over to d6s)

@OP It sounds like you've looked up the relevant builds, know about Words of Creation and have turned it down for one of the many reasons to turn it down. But on the offchance it wasn't mentioned, WoC's one feat for a huge boost to IC, compared to Lingering Song, which just makes bonuses last longer than most fights last. It has some serious downsides like harsh ability and alignment requirements, nonlethal damage when using it and a big "DM approval needed" flag, but it's useful in builds milking IC for all it's worth.

On practiced spellcaster+IG, there's nothing stopping it from adding those CL.

If perform ranks are a problem, a visit to heward's hall or circlet of persuasion shouldn't set you back more than a couple thousand GP, and the Heroism spell has a good duration.

[Keld Denar]

I'd go with Melodic Casting over Lingering Spell. Melodic Casting allows you to continue your song while casting. It also saves you a bunch of skill points on keeping Concentration up, so you can spend those skill points on the 300 skill points needed for Sublime Chord entry.

And yes, the Inspire Greatness + Practiced Spellcaster trick works. Combo that with SC's Song of Arcane Power and you can hit CL20 by ECL12 with a little work. Spread out that sweet sweet Chained GMW +5.

[Morbis Meh]

To really buff any skill to all sorts of ridiculous is a spell called improvisation, it's in the Spell Compendium. DFI is a great choice and like already mention you can gain it easily via silverbrow human who still gets the bonus feat from human.

You can run both DFI and IC at the same time and you do not need lingering song since after you since a song lasts 5 rounds which is more than long enough heck get a belt of battle and do both in the same round. Dump Lingering song for Words of Creation it will be able to pump your IC and DFI to silly levels it's in the book of exalted deeds, also if you don't mind being illiterate take the savage bard ACF to get a good fort save instead of a good reflex save.

You don't get class levels from Inspire Greatness so you can't use practiced spellcaster to inflate your CL, it is a silly thing to try and any DM would be suspicious of it plus you're blowing a song use and a feat for something you can do with a song you get from Sublime Chord.

Spell that benefits from high CL: Wings of Flurry, no CL cap on damage dice

Ditch the echoblade, if you are focusing on a caster instead get meta magic rods instead. Also a belt of battle is a beautiful thing for bards.


Other feats to consider: Martial Study-> Any white raven maneuver, why? because it grants you intimidate as a class skill and that allows you to take the best debuffing feat every: Doomspeak- It gives a -10 to saves and attack for one round; this may not seem like much but if you can quicken a spell or use a belt of battle to gain an extra round it is a godsend!

[Salik]

Wow, thanks for the quick answers!

I can't believe I did not notice the silverbrow human. I like it. And since it is possible to have both dragonfire inspiration and inspire courage up (for a few rounds at least), I think I will take dragonfire inspiration.

Yeah, I know about words of creation, but I don't really like anything from the BoED, since it requires you to play... well, exalted. Might be a fun challenge, but then the group has to be ok with it and play similar characters in order to avoid conflict. Don't think that will happen. Also, I don't want to be too over the top optimization-wise. I think DFI and IC together are already pushing it, to be honest. Well, I'll have to see what the DM and the rest of the group think.

While we're at it, are any of the draconic feats from Dragon Magic worth it? The Draconic Aura one sounds nice, since it will improve with character level as a silverbrow human. But then, I really have enough good feats to choose from, and not enough feat slots...

The circlet of persuasion I kinda forgot about because it gives a competence bonus (same as the masterwork instruments), but I had forgotten it applies to ALL CHA-skill checks. Seems like a good buy! This together with the great spell improvisation (thanks for the tip) should work nicely.

The Wings of Flurry Spell is good, thanks.

While I've heard good things about the Tome of Battle, I don't have it and neither does anyone in my Pnp-group. So it probably won't be used.

Thanks all, and more comments are welcome!

[Zherog]

The circlet of persuasion I kinda forgot about because it gives a competence bonus (same as the masterwork instruments), but I had forgotten it applies to ALL CHA-skill checks. Seems like a good buy! This together with the great spell improvisation (thanks for the tip) should work nicely.

A masterwork instrument grants a circumstance bonus, actually.


Musical Instrument, Common or Masterwork: A masterwork instrument grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Perform checks involving its use.

[Diarmuid]

And yes, the Inspire Greatness + Practiced Spellcaster trick works. Combo that with SC's Song of Arcane Power and you can hit CL20 by ECL12 with a little work. Spread out that sweet sweet Chained GMW +5.

KD - I've seen this referenced many times and I'm curious why anyone would think IG would boost a normal PC's caster level?


A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target's Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability

A wizard, bard, cleric, etc does not have casting based on Hit Dice. Outsiders with spell like abilities generally seem to have the CL of those abilities be based on their HD, but I dont get how that applies to a PC's CL for class based casting. Was this errata'd or updated somewhere I'm not aware of, or is this just something people assume works and unwary DM's let slide, but is not technically RAW.

[Salik]

Oh, I have misread the masterwork instrument then. Thanks for the clarification.

Well, since practised spellcaster gives up to 4 caster level (but no more than the character has hit dice) I thought it worked. Probably have to ask the DM anyway though. But it's no problem if it does not, then I can use the feat slot for something else ;)

Hmm, which perform should I take? If I use oratory or sing, I could hold something while performing. If I take an instrument, I have to hold the instrument. If I am not mistaken, that means I cannot cast spells with somatic/material/focus components, right? But then, I could always just stop performing... hmmm. I was kinda set on an instrument though.

[MidgetMarine]

If you play a bard, in my opinion, play a badass bard. I understand why people play bards with flutes and lutes, etc. but I will never, ever play one of those.

I've always loved to play a bard with ranks in perform (drums) (voice) and (horn). Make your bard have a deep, deep bass voice, who wades into battle blaring on a warhorn, and pounding on a war dru, whose rumbling fog horn of a voice breaks through battle and shakes the bones of enemies. It takes a little bit of time, but it feels badass.

[Kansaschaser]

Oh, I have misread the masterwork instrument then. Thanks for the clarification.

Well, since practised spellcaster gives up to 4 caster level (but no more than the character has hit dice) I thought it worked. Probably have to ask the DM anyway though. But it's no problem if it does not, then I can use the feat slot for something else ;)

Hmm, which perform should I take? If I use oratory or sing, I could hold something while performing. If I take an instrument, I have to hold the instrument. If I am not mistaken, that means I cannot cast spells with somatic/material/focus components, right? But then, I could always just stop performing... hmmm. I was kinda set on an instrument though.

Well, you could use them all, if you can squeeze in another feat. Possibly take a flaw?

Versatile Performer from Complete Adventurer, page 112

[Keld Denar]

KD - I've seen this referenced many times and I'm curious why anyone would think IG would boost a normal PC's caster level?



A wizard, bard, cleric, etc does not have casting based on Hit Dice. Outsiders with spell like abilities generally seem to have the CL of those abilities be based on their HD, but I dont get how that applies to a PC's CL for class based casting. Was this errata'd or updated somewhere I'm not aware of, or is this just something people assume works and unwary DM's let slide, but is not technically RAW.

Inspire Greatness alone would not. If, however, you took Practiced Spellcaster for Bard (or SC) then that raises your CL by 4, up to the limit of your HD. Since your HD under the influence of IG is 3 higher, your CL would also be 3 higher. When IG wears off, Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't do anything until you put it back up. Best used for buffing, especially for hours long buffs like GMW.

[eggs]

Was this errata'd or updated somewhere I'm not aware of, or is this just something people assume works and unwary DM's let slide, but is not technically RAW.
You'll notice the language of the highlighted portion of your quote was not exclusive. There's no indication beside speculation of RAI that bonus hit dice aren't actually hit dice; there's just a clarification that they count as actual hit dice for one potentially confusing type of effect.

The reasoning, based on the text you quoted, is:
Inspire Greatness gives bonus hit dice.
Practiced Spellcaster boosts CL up to HD.
So together, IG+PS=increased CL.

Per RAW, it works. There might be bones to pick because the interaction probably wasn't considered in either ability's writing/balancing, but that raises exactly the kind of group-by-group variations which lead people to take RAW as the default mode of discussion 'round these parts.

[Acanous]

that's actually a really neat trick, can't believe this is the first time it's come up.
Of course, to make it work you're looking at a spellcaster gnabbing an otherwise useless feat, then being buffed by a lv 10+ bard. But I could see it working if you ALSO burned a feat on Leadership >.>

[Kelb_Panthera]

that's actually a really neat trick, can't believe this is the first time it's come up.
Of course, to make it work you're looking at a spellcaster gnabbing an otherwise useless feat, then being buffed by a lv 10+ bard. But I could see it working if you ALSO burned a feat on Leadership >.>

Or if you're, you know, a bard. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

We used to use it all of the time in Living Greyhawk. Have the cleric take Practiced Spellcaster, then pop of Bead of Karma, bard buffs with IG, and then the next round, the Cleric uses Divine Spell Power and drops a CL 25ish Holy Word and ends the encounter in 12 seconds. Then the mod writers started introducing half-fiend advanced animals and vermin with CR12 CL30+ Blasphemies...that ended that idea.

[Salik]

Yeah, I probably won't do the practised spellcaster + inspire greatness trick. If I can get away with DFI + IC I'm happy already.

Versatile performer looks also very nice, thanks for the tip. Adds some nice flavor, and I can feel like a real bard prodigy! It's probably not optimal optimization-wise, but then I don't need to be really optimal with the character.

[Diarmuid]

Inspire Greatness alone would not. If, however, you took Practiced Spellcaster for Bard (or SC) then that raises your CL by 4, up to the limit of your HD. Since your HD under the influence of IG is 3 higher, your CL would also be 3 higher. When IG wears off, Practiced Spellcaster wouldn't do anything until you put it back up. Best used for buffing, especially for hours long buffs like GMW.

Ahh, I was missing the connection with the Practiced Spellcaster. Thanks KD!

[Kansaschaser]

Yeah, I probably won't do the practised spellcaster + inspire greatness trick. If I can get away with DFI + IC I'm happy already.

Versatile performer looks also very nice, thanks for the tip. Adds some nice flavor, and I can feel like a real bard prodigy! It's probably not optimal optimization-wise, but then I don't need to be really optimal with the character.

If you decide to take Versatile Performer, take a look at what the Masterwork Instruments do to your Bardic music. Complete Adventurer, pages 124-127. You could carry around a plethora of different instruments and change what you are playing based on your needs at the time.

Also, if you end up playing multiple instuments, you might consider picking up Animate Instrument, Complete Scoundrel, page 94.

One last thing. In case your DM throws a Silence spell your way, be sure to take Joyful Noise, Spell Compendium, page 127. It allows you to negate silence in a 10 ft radius emenation from you.

[Salik]

Thanks for the tips. Yeah, if I take versatile performer (and I think I will) I am for sure going to carry lots of masterwork instruments with me and use them as my mood (or the party's need) dictates!

Animate instrument sounds like a very fun spell, though not very useful if I take melodic casting. But I could be a one-man-band, animating for instance drums, playing a lute and singing all at the same time!
Joyful noise would be great if its duration wasn't concentration. I guess with the spell I can keep singing/playing, but I cannot do anything else. Hmm, well if I'm silenced, then I cannot do much anyway, since I guess most spells have verbal components. I'll see.