devil vs. demon behavior

[leegi0n]

Of devils or demons, which would be more likely to want to open a gate into the "common" world of DnD? Why?

[Flickerdart]

Both the Abyss and the Hells would be interested in a stable gateway to the Prime Material plane. However, the Bebilith (a powerful demon) can already Plane Shift, and demons have trouble organizing themselves to do anything anyway, so devils are the likelier candidates for actually making a coordinated effort to do this.

[ArtoriasOfFour]

Agree, both devils and demons will probably find something interesting in "common" D&D world. So they both would want to get there, but as Flickerdart said, devils are more likely to do that, because they are more organized.

[leegi0n]

I thought so. The demons seem more chaotic and reckless.

[leegi0n]

...and of the devils, which is the most flavorful....barring 'ol Asmodeus.

sorry 'bout the double post.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Depends on what you want to, for example Fierna and her Dad (whose name I forgot) probably want to corrupt Mortals for the lulz mostly and for the smex too; but Mephisto would try to use cults are damned mortals to improve his standing and power in yet another bid to usurp Asmodeous place (assuming I am remembering his motivations correctly)

[ArtoriasOfFour]

You can also think about Mammon, as he has little interest in the hell politics, he could create a gate to easily send his minions to do some stuff or to convert more mortals on his side by making his presence more visible.

[Acanous]

As for Behavior, well..Devils act like Tarquin. Demons act like Xykon.
That's the best example I can think of without delving into long paragraphs.

[Eldan]

Some of hte disposed nobility, say, Geryon, might be interesting too. Trying to regain power by off-plane to sneak it past Big A.

[Kane0]

They would fight over the portal. Savagely.

Mortal souls are both currency and power in the lower planes, so both sides want that upper hand to use against the other in the Blood War and against Heavenly crusades made against them.

The reasons and actions around the portal would be the difference. Demons would pour out to destroy and capture, devils would slowly trickle through to scheme and corrupt.

Depends on your players I guess.
If you want to throw an epic fight at them then make it demons.
If you want to make it a tough challenge (which will also include fighting) to surpass make it Devils and their minions.

Of the Devils:
Bel: Treat him like a high ranking general. Looking for military might and strategically important objects/people/locations
Dispater: Not so great a choice. He rarely leaves his safe tower in Dis, so he would only be sending proxies. Also slow to act, but you can use this to your advantage.
Mammon: Would probably do it to get his original form/power back. Also greed.
Belial & Fierna: Might be doing it to establish power separate from the other behind their back. Also Hedonism.
Levistus: Freedom from his prison, and revenge after that.
Glasya: Trying to establish some power away from Asmodeus, or strengthen alliance with Fierna. Can be unpredictable.
Baalzebul: Lies and deceit. Lots of it.
Mephistopheles: Some new plot to overthrow Asmodeus. Or possibly trialling new applications/forms of Hellfire.
Asmodeus: Always has a plan, within a plan, etc. Might be doing something for the Blood War, fighting the forces of good, or maintaining Baator status quo.

Bonus Devils:
Geryon / Zariel are deposed achdevils that may not be dead. They will likely be looking for a way to regain their power with what support they have left (like Orcus did with the whole Tenebrous thing).

[Slipperychicken]

Demons make more sense for pouring through the gate, while Devils for a more organized (but still extremely quick) deployment. The decision might come down to how you want your infernal hordes to look/behave: Demons for dancing and cackling madly, mutilating, and charging recklessly into their enemies. Devils for marching, chanting, negotiating, tempting, humiliating, possessing extreme coordination and restraint.


They would both want the gate, but it's your campaign. Maybe there's a reason only one of them can access it for now (too deep in Hell/Abyss for the other side to reach realistically, requires a McGuffin to work/reach it, is inherently Lawful/Chaotic, etc). Or maybe one side hasn't gotten wind of it yet, like Asmodeus setting the gate up in a heavily warded area, or one whose natural environment interferes with divination. Or the fight for the gate can be part of the campaign, perhaps a three-way battle between Devil, Demon, and Do-Gooder.

[Steward]

Devils are a solid choice for this type of plot, especially if you use the characterizations that Kane0 describes.

If you want to use demons, well in Fiendish Codex 1, the Abyss (the Chaotic Evil domain of demons, equivalent of the 9 Hells of Asmodeus) itself is portrayed as almost like a living thing, with designs of its own. It has an unrelenting desire to permeate the entire cosmos and twist reality to its will, and it explicitly talks about situations where the Abyss itself spontaneously generates portals between itself and the mortal world. Not only do demon hordes pass into the mortal world through these portals, the portals themselves actually infect the areas in which they form some of the hate and chaos of the Abyss.

The book gives some examples as to what can happen; for example, if the portal appears in a forest, the animals in the forest can suddenly mutate into larger, more violent versions of themselves. The wood on the trees might become almost like flesh. The weather might become unnatural or apocalyptic in that localized area; blood rain, overcast skies in bizarre colors, etc.

[Arcanist]

Devils are a solid choice for this type of plot, especially if you use the characterizations that Kane0 describes.

If you want to use demons, well in Fiendish Codex 1, the Abyss (the Chaotic Evil domain of demons, equivalent of the 9 Hells of Asmodeus) itself is portrayed as almost like a living thing, with designs of its own. It has an unrelenting desire to permeate the entire cosmos and twist reality to its will, and it explicitly talks about situations where the Abyss itself spontaneously generates portals between itself and the mortal world. Not only do demon hordes pass into the mortal world through these portals, the portals themselves actually infect the areas in which they form some of the hate and chaos of the Abyss.

The book gives some examples as to what can happen; for example, if the portal appears in a forest, the animals in the forest can suddenly mutate into larger, more violent versions of themselves. The wood on the trees might become almost like flesh. The weather might become unnatural or apocalyptic in that localized area; blood rain, overcast skies in bizarre colors, etc.

For more information see A great and powerful malevolence from the Book of Vile Darkness :smallamused:

I support Demons in the idea that they can be manipulated Much in the same way that the Undead can (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html), however the most important difference is that Evil Outsiders are usually so caught up and so obsessed in their own plans that the only thing they are looking at is your Soul when in reality they should be looking at your Brain. If properly directed they can be convinced to perform almost anything. I personally prefer Demons because the only resources they have for taking your soul is if you are weak enough or stupid enough to let them. An intelligent Demon binder will prepare a method to dismiss the Demon at the moment and any moment their after their first successful binding. My Personal favorite is being a Neutral Good Cleric (Malkonvoker) that preps Holy Word to pop them back into their pit for defying you for even an instant.

But meh... Summoning Devils can be good too really, but breaking contract can be suicidal really... :smalltongue:

[SowZ]

The greatest advantage of Devils over Demons is their infrastructure and organization. Conversely, the greatest disadvantage of Devils over Demons is their infrastructure and organization. So... Either side. The bureaucracy of the Devil's is as likely to slow down an organization as the impulsiveness of a Demon is likely to seize any opportunity.

[Slipperychicken]

The greatest advantage of Devils over Demons is their infrastructure and organization. Conversely, the greatest disadvantage of Devils over Demons is their infrastructure and organization. So... Either side. The bureaucracy of the Devil's is as likely to slow down an organization as the impulsiveness of a Demon is likely to seize any opportunity.

Isn't the Demons' advantage (in the Blood War at least) their literally infinite numbers? :smallconfused:

Also, you'd think that guys running around with 20+ Int scores would be able to design a decent bureaucracy, or at least hammer out most of the kinks within a few million years, no?

[leegi0n]

I'm going to treat it as a massive underground construction of a Baator gate (via Mammon) that is of such a massive scale that were it to succeed, the elder evils would have no problem, whatsoever, breaching the planes....and that's gonna be the plot hook.

The construction has been on going and prepping for a good 10 years, with the help of the Illithid/Abberation communities mostly. They have collectively worked to stop all divination or outside, unwanted, monitoring of the construction of Mammon's Gate.

All of the magic users that are, and have been abducted (see my other post), are now under hell-born contract that they will aid (through their arcane prowess), the construction and initiation of this behemoth of a gate that, when complete, will actually have two openings on opposite sides of this home-brew world. My ultimate plan, is to get the squishy heroes involved to do what they gotta do (rescue family from this) and as it's happening there is going to be an introduction of the Tanaari. Something happened with the collective divination defenses and the Demons know and are coming.

Of course, the underground meeting of a bunch of Devils and Demons in a highly synthesized arcane area (miles of it) is the biggest bomb ever imagined. The story ends when they destroy everything around them (including the gate and enslaved participants) in the small war that will surely happen when they meet.

The heroes must get out. Period.

[JBento]

Note that, generally speaking, the only way to go to and from the Nine Hells or the Abyss is the top layer. This means that for the devil side, you'd have to get Bel involved somehow (but Bel doesn't give a rat's ass about the Prime Material Plane, so "involved somehow" could be as simple as "he's getting paid in coin, items, or additional toops").

[Lord_Gareth]

Note that, generally speaking, the only way to go to and from the Nine Hells or the Abyss is the top layer. This means that for the devil side, you'd have to get Bel involved somehow (but Bel doesn't give a rat's ass about the Prime Material Plane, so "involved somehow" could be as simple as "he's getting paid in coin, items, or additional toops").

Untrue. Portals and gates can open to any part of any plane unless it's otherwise sealed off. Sigil, in particular, is famous for dumping people into the more-hostile parts of planes.

[JBento]

I'm away from books right now (and I won't be close to them for a long while, unfortunately :smallfrown:), but I think the remaining layers are as close to "sealed off" from inter-planar travel as you can get.

IIRC, to delve into the Abyss you have to make a mandatroy detour through Pazunia (in which portals exist that can get you anywhere in the Abyss, except, in all likelihood, where you actually want to be), and there's no way to bypass Baator's first layer (which is why all demon-fighting is focused there, and the remaining 8 layers are mostly concerned in jockeying for internal positions). If you COULD by pass the first layer of Baator, then it stands to reason that every other layer would have to be demon-ready at all times.

[leegi0n]

Right...I've already considered the Bel situation and he is being paid with coin and slaves to look the other way.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm away from books right now (and I won't be close to them for a long while, unfortunately :smallfrown:), but I think the remaining layers are as close to "sealed off" from inter-planar travel as you can get.

IIRC, to delve into the Abyss you have to make a mandatroy detour through Pazunia (in which portals exist that can get you anywhere in the Abyss, except, in all likelihood, where you actually want to be), and there's no way to bypass Baator's first layer (which is why all demon-fighting is focused there, and the remaining 8 layers are mostly concerned in jockeying for internal positions). If you COULD by pass the first layer of Baator, then it stands to reason that every other layer would have to be demon-ready at all times.

Every layer is. However, there's some gates that are easier than others. Casting the spell Gate simply won't do to move large numbers of troops (not to mention dispelling the damn thing) and most of the other portals that go from point-to-point are either heavily guarded or in locations that are not accessible (Sigil being famous as that second one). No, for the most part planar armies walk, which is the real biggest reason that Bel is so damn busy - if you're moving from layer to layer with your own two feet/wings/tentacles then yes, you have to march through layer by layer by layer.

[GungHo]

Both would want to open a gate to the Prime Material to gain power, convert worshipers/thralls, and fight their wars with each other and the rest of existance.

The real difference would be in what they did when they got there to achieve those goals, with demons having less impulse control.

[SowZ]

Isn't the Demons' advantage (in the Blood War at least) their literally infinite numbers? :smallconfused:

Also, you'd think that guys running around with 20+ Int scores would be able to design a decent bureaucracy, or at least hammer out most of the kinks within a few million years, no?

If a Devil cared about the goals of Devils on the whole more or as much as their own goals, sure. But no army can move forward very effectively if every soldier is concerned with only their own advancement. Succeeding in Devil goals is important so far as it advances the individual only. Sure, while it may be bad for Devils as a species that Devil A backstabs Devil D, it hurts Devils overall less than it helps Devil A. So every Devil will scheme against other Devils. No bureaucracy can work smoothly when every individual has 100 percent selfish motives which include screwing over superiors.

[ArtoriasOfFour]

Note that, generally speaking, the only way to go to and from the Nine Hells or the Abyss is the top layer. This means that for the devil side, you'd have to get Bel involved somehow (but Bel doesn't give a rat's ass about the Prime Material Plane, so "involved somehow" could be as simple as "he's getting paid in coin, items, or additional toops").

Which book exactly gives such kind of information ?

[Duboris]

So every Devil will scheme against other Devils. No bureaucracy can work smoothly when every individual has 100 percent selfish motives which include screwing over superiors.
{Scrubbed}

Moving on, I think that this idea will work, however he is actually very right. The lesser devils will be scheming, but that's negligible. The one's you should be worried about are the generals of said armies, which will probably be moderately high in CR, along with the fact that, should they be bought off, or diplomacized, the PC's probably just found a sneaky way into somewhere.

[AdamT]

I'm going to treat it as a massive underground construction of a Baator gate (via Mammon) that is of such a massive scale that were it to succeed, the elder evils would have no problem, whatsoever, breaching the planes....and that's gonna be the plot hook.

The construction has been on going and prepping for a good 10 years, with the help of the Illithid/Abberation communities mostly. They have collectively worked to stop all divination or outside, unwanted, monitoring of the construction of Mammon's Gate.

All of the magic users that are, and have been abducted (see my other post), are now under hell-born contract that they will aid (through their arcane prowess), the construction and initiation of this behemoth of a gate that, when complete, will actually have two openings on opposite sides of this home-brew world. My ultimate plan, is to get the squishy heroes involved to do what they gotta do (rescue family from this) and as it's happening there is going to be an introduction of the Tanaari. Something happened with the collective divination defenses and the Demons know and are coming.

Of course, the underground meeting of a bunch of Devils and Demons in a highly synthesized arcane area (miles of it) is the biggest bomb ever imagined. The story ends when they destroy everything around them (including the gate and enslaved participants) in the small war that will surely happen when they meet.

The heroes must get out. Period.

Sounds very much like "Night Below"... one of the best adventures ever, imho.