Rules Interaction Question

[LanSlyde]

Alright, lets say we have a form swift action movement. Now, the Rules Compendium (Page 7) explicitly states that a swift action can occur at any time during your turn. But you can only use 1 swift action per turn. Out of curiosity, could you say.. Perform a full attack on a target, drop it and (assuming you still had attacks left over) move within range of another target that wasn't within 5ft step distance and continue your full attack?

I know when you use full attack the only movement you can normally perform is a 5ft step. Which is why I came to the board with this question.

[The Random NPC]

I'm not sure on the RAW, I would think you would at least need Spring Attack.
EDIT:
Yes, Spring Attack would allow you to move before and after your attack.

[Acanous]

Reasonably certain you'd be able to full attack and then use this to move, or move with this and then full attack, but you wouldn't be able to continue the full attack without Spring Attack.

[Kazyan]

There's precedent for "no", thought I don't have a RAW text on the matter. Usually, the game provides specific exceptions for preforming an action during another action. This is why you need a Frenzied Berserker to 5-foot step between Cleaving.

[Asheram]

Alright, lets say we have a form swift action movement. Now, the Rules Compendium (Page 7) explicitly states that a swift action can occur at any time during your turn. But you can only use 1 swift action per turn. Out of curiosity, could you say.. Perform a full attack on a target, drop it and (assuming you still had attacks left over) move within range of another target that wasn't within 5ft step distance and continue your full attack?

I know when you use full attack the only movement you can normally perform is a 5ft step. Which is why I came to the board with this question.

I'm trying to get what you're saying here. You want to know that if (in theory) there was a swift action which granted you movement, you could use it During a full attack?

[Boci]

I don't see why this should work. By the rules, you can use a swift action in the middle of a full attack, so unless there is a rule that specifically voids continueing a full attack after movement...


I'm trying to get what you're saying here. You want to know that if (in theory) there was a swift action which granted you movement, you could use it During a full attack?

Not really theory, since off the top of my head:
Knights move (PH II), anklet of translocation (MiC), shadow blink (ToB) or any quickened movement spell that doesn't specifically disallow further attacks.

[animewatcha]

Scenario that I am thinking for the casing of this. Travel devotion + Whirlwind attack.

[LanSlyde]

Well, if I must present the full situation. I have a barbarian with a dip in warblade. He has sudden leap (a form of swift action movement) and both knockback and rampaging bull rush. Assuming he connects on his power attack, more than likely he's going to send a target flying and prone. I was wondering if I could, on a full attack, send a target flying with the 1st iterative then leap after the poor sod and continue bashing his face into the earth with my Goliath great-hammer. Because I like the picture of overwhelming brutality it depicts I wanted to see if it was mechanically legal.

[The Random NPC]

I don't see why this should work. By the rules, you can use a swift action in the middle of a full attack, so unless there is a rule that specifically voids continueing a full attack after movement...

Basically, on page 143 PHB
The only movement that you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. you may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. And on page 100
Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move before and after the attack,....
EDIT:
I would say grab Spring Attack to be able to do it.

[Boci]

Basically, on page 143 PHB The only movement that you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. you may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. And on page 100 Spring Attack: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move before and after the attack,....

Fair enough, although I'd argue specific beats general (with the ability to move as a swift action beating the general rule for moving during a full attack) but I could see others disagreeing.

[Acanous]

Well, if I must present the full situation. I have a barbarian with a dip in warblade. He has sudden leap (a form of swift action movement) and both knockback and rampaging bull rush. Assuming he connects on his power attack, more than likely he's going to send a target flying and prone. I was wondering if I could, on a full attack, send a target flying with the 1st iterative then leap after the poor sod and continue bashing his face into the earth with my Goliath great-hammer. Because I like the picture of overwhelming brutality it depicts I wanted to see if it was mechanically legal.

Well, if you read up on the bull rush rules, I believe you can choose to move with your target. (Unless Rampaging bull rush/knockback changes that) so you should be able to keep beating his face in anyhow.

If your DM is cool with you using your Sudden Leap "As a 5 foot step", then you could pull it off. (IE it takes the place of a 5 foot step and is the same kind of action)

Finally, if you grab Spring Attack you're golden.

[LanSlyde]

Well, if you read up on the bull rush rules, I believe you can choose to move with your target. (Unless Rampaging bull rush/knockback changes that) so you should be able to keep beating his face in anyhow.

If your DM is cool with you using your Sudden Leap "As a 5 foot step", then you could pull it off. (IE it takes the place of a 5 foot step and is the same kind of action)

Finally, if you grab Spring Attack you're golden.

Knockback pushes them back without the user following them. Basically the force of the blow is enough to 'bull rush' the target. I know of spring attack, but I'm trying to avoid it entirely.

[Curmudgeon]

You can take a swift action during a full attack.
You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. However, you can't use that swift action for movement because of this special restriction:
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks. The Sudden Leap maneuver doesn't provide any language excepting you from the full attack movement limitation, so you're stuck there.

Because Spring Attack splits a move action around an "attack action", if you have a way of getting an extra move action in a round you can split that around a full attack action. You still can't use a swift action for movement during your full attack, though.

[Boci]

You can take a swift action during a full attack. However, you can't use that swift action for movement because of this special restriction: The Sudden Leap maneuver doesn't provide any language excepting you from the full attack movement limitation, so you're stuck there.

Shadow blink and knight's move should be fair game though, as would anything that increases the distance of your 5ft step like the monk's draining dummy, the stance stance that allows two such steps, and the rediculously high tumble check from OA (I think its DC: 50).

[LanSlyde]

Hmm, Alright then. I thank you all for the timely response and I have resolved to ask the DM. He tends to allow badass stuff like this.. so long as I don't abuse it.

[Invader]

I'd have to agree with curmudgeon but personally I'd allow you. I'd say the no movement rule RAI wasn't written with the idea of swift forms of movement.

It seems like by RAW you could cast a swift spell that resulted in movement. The swift action would actually be the casting of the spell, the movement is just the consequence. I think an argument could be made for maneuvers as well.

[animewatcha]

You can take a swift action during a full attack. However, you can't use that swift action for movement because of this special restriction: The Sudden Leap maneuver doesn't provide any language excepting you from the full attack movement limitation, so you're stuck there.

Because Spring Attack splits a move action around an "attack action", if you have a way of getting an extra move action in a round you can split that around a full attack action. You still can't use a swift action for movement during your full attack, though.

You sure about that? Since swift action came out 'after' player's handbook 1 which is the source for 'full-attack'. Wouldn't this be one of those 'adaption' things WOTC autoamtically assumes you do.

[Curmudgeon]

You sure about that? Since swift action came out 'after' player's handbook 1 which is the source for 'full-attack'. Wouldn't this be one of those 'adaption' things WOTC autoamtically assumes you do.
Oh, I'm quite sure. I included the quote explaining how swift actions get integrated into the core rules, and the specific movement restriction of the full attack action. There's nothing in the text introducing swift actions (see Miniatures Handbook and Complete Arcane) which overrides that movement restriction. You're free to take swift action movement before or after a full attack, or non-movement swift actions during a full attack; you just can't take swift action movement in the middle of a full attack action.

If you want a way around this full attack movement limit you need to look into specific class abilities like the Dervish Dance.

[Rejakor]

The problem is that all those abilities are a) expensive b) terrible and c) focused on dex characters, and this is a Str dungeoncrasher goliath.

And d) this is rather an edge case.

So yeah, apply to your local DM. I doubt it will be a serious problem to houserule the edges off this.

[Boci]

The problem is that all those abilities are a) expensive b) terrible and c) focused on dex characters, and this is a Str dungeoncrasher goliath.

Anklet of translocation is pretty cheap. (So is knight's move, but its situational.)

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, according to the text in "Deciding Between an Attack Action and a Full Attack", you're not actually making a full attack until your second hit. I'd say you can do it, if you hit with your first attack, declare your swift action and then declare your full-attack.
In my games, I just let the swift action overrule that restriction, though.

[animewatcha]

Oh, I'm quite sure. I included the quote explaining how swift actions get integrated into the core rules, and the specific movement restriction of the full attack action. There's nothing in the text introducing swift actions (see Miniatures Handbook and Complete Arcane) which overrides that movement restriction. You're free to take swift action movement before or after a full attack, or non-movement swift actions during a full attack; you just can't take swift action movement in the middle of a full attack action.

If you want a way around this full attack movement limit you need to look into specific class abilities like the Dervish Dance.

What about my interaction of swift + whirlwind attack. The 5 ft during whirlwind has possibilty of adding more targets. So what about activating swift action before your full attack, then carrying out the full attack as part of the movement ( you can move up to your speed as part of swift action ) of the swift action.

To try and put it simpler. Street fighter. Ryu and Ken. Hurricane kick. Kicking part - full attack. moving through the air and potentially adding more targets - Travel devotion.

[Deophaun]

What about my interaction of swift + whirlwind attack. The 5 ft during whirlwind has possibilty of adding more targets. So what about activating swift action before your full attack, then carrying out the full attack as part of the movement ( you can move up to your speed as part of swift action ) of the swift action.

To try and put it simpler. Street fighter. Ryu and Ken. Hurricane kick. Kicking part - full attack. moving through the air and potentially adding more targets - Travel devotion.
Wouldn't work. When you use Whirlwind attack, you get to make 1 melee attack against each opponent within reach. If you were to whirlwind, hit one, and then move to another creature five squares away, you wouldn't get the attack, because that creature wasn't within reach when you used whirlwind attack.

I'm inclined to disagree with Crumudgeon, simply because I interpret "movement" to be a move action (it's not a defined term). Otherwise, if the only movement you can make is a 5 foot step, then your attacks, like swinging a sword, that require movement are also forbidden :P

[Rejakor]

Anklet of translocation is pretty cheap. (So is knight's move, but its situational.)

All the stuff that explicitly allows movement during a full attack. Is what I was referring to. Like dervish dance etc.

Which theoretically anklet of translocation would since teleportation is classed differently to other 'movement modes' etc.