Versus Thread (Formerly Versus #10)

[Cranthis]

I'm going to give you guys two 3.5 classes, sometimes drastically different, sometimes very similar. I want to hear your opinions on who would win between the two, and why. The only rule is "Don't use tiers as your only means of explanation". This isn't any sort of contest, it is just a side by side comparison of classes.

Today's versus: Wizard vs Archivist


Assume both are level 6 (this will not always be the case)

Use your own logic, and your own builds if you want, and explain which side you think wins.

This thread is for gathering general opinions, and is not intended to copy anything similar that may have been done already, excluding my own posts.

[Snowbluff]

Um... Archivist gets all of the spells, doesn't he? I am probaly wrong, but I might be right?

Also, the cheatiest for practical use build: Archivist/Anima Mage(Divine adaptation)/Tenebrous Aspostate. Infinite DMM. And you are a binder. For the lolz.

[Acanous]

The Archivist is largely reliant on the idea that cleric domain spells, scribed into scrolls, can give him most/all Arcane spells as divine spells. Actually pulling this off at a table is quite difficult, as it usually involves petitioning clerics from all over the alignment/pantheon spectrum to sell you scrolls. How many clerics even TAKE Scribe Scroll?

Anyhow, Potential/theoretical OP? Archivist. Practical OP? Wizard. Given that they're both lv 6? Wizard. Archivist doesn't have the WBL to get the edge on a Wizard, even if the clerics are all willing to sell. Wizard also has access to Colligeate Wizard, so there's that.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It's a wash. They're almost the same thing anyway. Maybe give just the razor thinnest of edges to the archivist, since a fair number of good sorc/wiz spells appear on various divine lists.

[Draz74]

The Archivist has a larger spell list, a slightly better chassis, and class features that actually do cool things.

The Wizard has SAD spellcasting, a small handful of broken super-spells that aren't on the Archivist's list, and -- most importantly -- a LOT more ACFs to choose from.

I'd say Wizard has the edge here, mostly due to things like Focused Specialist, Abrupt Jaunt, and Spontaneous Divination. (And *shudder* Domain Wizard, if it's allowed.)

[vhfforever]

Archivist.

All the spells.

Between Domans, splatbook Spell lists, and everything else...they have it by an edge.

[eggs]

A few things that I think make this a bit more interesting:

Level 6 means WBL still limits spell access, so individual characters from neither class actually have more spells than the other.
There aren't a lot of open-ended effects like Planar Binding/Polymorph/Create Dread Warrior on the table yet, so both classes are basically limited by their explicit abilities.
The Archivist's still picking up normally advanced-level spells from the 4th-level casting classes like Confusion/Fear, Freedom of Movement and Death Ward. But this is highy group/campaign-reliant.
The archivist's class features are more geared toward party buffing than the Wizard's, but the Wizard's tend to be bigger and flashier or to combo better [save/attack bonuses v. bonus feats and familiar/abrupt jaunt].

I think 1v1, the Wizard has better tools to win the fight (better init boosters, a immediate "no" from an ACF or a built-in sidekick of some sort, and both have casting to hit like trains).

In a cooperative group v. environment scenario, I think it depends on the restrictions on the Archivist to learn non-Cleric spells: if it can pick up Druid/Domain/Paladin/Ranger spells as readily as the Wizard can pick up Wizard spells, they're probably about even; if the Archivist can pick up prestige or variant spell lists like Nentyar Hunter, Disciple of Thrym or Divine Bard, it probably has a bit of an advantage; if the Archivist can exploit the existence of certain feats/PrCs that translate arcane->divine (Geomancer, Alternative Spell Source, etc.), Archivist, no contest.

[toapat]

The Archivist is largely reliant on the idea that cleric domain spells, scribed into scrolls, can give him most/all Arcane spells as divine spells. Actually pulling this off at a table is quite difficult, as it usually involves petitioning clerics from all over the alignment/pantheon spectrum to sell you scrolls. How many clerics even TAKE Scribe Scroll?

Anyhow, Potential/theoretical OP? Archivist. Practical OP? Wizard. Given that they're both lv 6? Wizard. Archivist doesn't have the WBL to get the edge on a Wizard, even if the clerics are all willing to sell. Wizard also has access to Colligeate Wizard, so there's that.

this, basically.

Even if we give the Feats and most powerful wizard sub (elven generalist, i said sub, not ACF) to Archivist, the comparison is simply a question of: Who, most of all, is easier and cheaper to build.

and the simple answer is: Wizard.

Level 6 is a bit early to go into the point of why actually wizard>Archivist long term though, but basically, there is no cheap Turn undead for Archivist, giving Wizard the advantage in PrC power

[TuggyNE]

The Archivist is largely reliant on the idea that cleric domain spells, scribed into scrolls, can give him most/all Arcane spells as divine spells. Actually pulling this off at a table is quite difficult, as it usually involves petitioning clerics from all over the alignment/pantheon spectrum to sell you scrolls. How many clerics even TAKE Scribe Scroll?

I would put in a minor correction here. Due to the rules on magic item creation, the Cleric in question need not have Scribe Scroll nor expend XP; instead, the Archivist himself can act as the creator, and the Cleric merely donate spellcasting for the usual fee.

(I doubt this influences the comparison at hand much, but it is useful for certain other cases, especially acquiring Ranger/Paladin/Trapsmith/whatever spells.)

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Archivist is largely reliant on the idea that cleric domain spells, scribed into scrolls, can give him most/all Arcane spells as divine spells. Actually pulling this off at a table is quite difficult, as it usually involves petitioning clerics from all over the alignment/pantheon spectrum to sell you scrolls. How many clerics even TAKE Scribe Scroll?

Anyhow, Potential/theoretical OP? Archivist. Practical OP? Wizard. Given that they're both lv 6? Wizard. Archivist doesn't have the WBL to get the edge on a Wizard, even if the clerics are all willing to sell. Wizard also has access to Colligeate Wizard, so there's that.

The Archivist gets Scribe Scroll for free, and multiple character can cooperate for crafting an item. "You cast the spell, I'll pay all the gold and XP!" There are standard rates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#spell) for this sort of thing.

In the higher levels (not for this challenge, though) you can take Leadership for a Warlock cohort, who at level 12 can contribute literally any divine spell in existence for your scroll-crafting.


For this particular challenge, the Wizard could do Shrink Item shenanigans and Explosive Runes + Dispel Magic shenanigans and still be flying. The Archivist can do Animate Dead, but he doesn't really get any iWin buttons. Initiative is the real winner in this match-up, and the Archivist gets Sign while the Wizard has Nerveskitter. It is indeed a toss-up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Archivist is largely reliant on the idea that cleric domain spells, scribed into scrolls, can give him most/all Arcane spells as divine spells. Actually pulling this off at a table is quite difficult, as it usually involves petitioning clerics from all over the alignment/pantheon spectrum to sell you scrolls. How many clerics even TAKE Scribe Scroll?

Sorry to dogpile on you like this, but there's one major hiccup in this argument. Barring unusual circumstances, your archivist probably isn't the only archivist out there. You buy or trade those spells off of other archivists who got them from either an original source or from a third archivist who may or may not have gotten it from an original source, and so on.

[Snowbluff]

Sorry to dogpile on you like this, but there's one major hiccup in this argument. Barring unusual circumstances, your archivist probably isn't the only archivist out there. You buy or trade those spells off of other archivists who got them from either an original source or from a third archivist who may or may not have gotten it from an original source, and so on.

Don't forget the monthly Archivist Magazine, and the Archivist conventions... man, these guys love their networking.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Don't forget the monthly Archivist Magazine, and the Archivist conventions... man, these guys love their networking.

Just like their kindred spirits in the arcane world; the wizards. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Just like their kindred spirits in the arcane world; the wizards. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah... strangely enough, Wizard's Weekly and Achivist Magazine are written by antisocial level 12 Warlock who spend all their time sipping Mountain Dew Thought Bottle in their parents' basements offices writing the scrolls that make the pages.

These magazines are crazy expensive, too. :smallannoyed:

[Arcanist]

Don't forget the monthly Archivist Magazine, and the Archivist conventions... man, these guys love their networking.

I wonder if I can convince my DM that the Erudite Quarterly, the Wizard Weekly and Archivist Almanac actually exist in my next game... :smallamused:

Hmm... Maybe in a High Magic Campaign... :smalltongue:

[GoatBoy]

Given how easy it is for either to access the others' spell lists, the average winner over multiple fights would probably be the archivist just for having the higher Fort save and slightly more hit points. Otherwise it's too close to call.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah... strangely enough, Wizard's Weekly and Achivist Magazine are written by antisocial level 12 Warlock who spend all their time sipping Mountain Dew Thought Bottle in their parents' basements offices writing the scrolls that make the pages.

These magazines are crazy expensive, too. :smallannoyed:

In all seriousness though, it wouldn't be unreasonable for archivists devoted to a god of magic and/or knowledge to set up a divine analogue to the typical wizards' college.

In the core pantheon Boccob would be a perfect fit; TN deity of magic and knowledge who wouldn't care that many of the spells his archivist followers were passing around weren't on any of his domain lists. (he's known as the uncarring after all)

It'd probably be a combination wizard/archivist academy. Veritable goldmine for obscure spells if you can just find it somewhere in the ridiculously massive archives that are poorly catalogued because only the archivists have better than average (but still not great) wisdom and are working with those obsessive-compulsive, half-paranoid wizards. 'd make a mystic theurge fall to his knees and weep for joy I think.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah... strangely enough, Wizard's Weekly and Achivist Magazine are written by antisocial level 12 Warlock who spend all their time sipping Mountain Dew Thought Bottle in their parents' basements offices writing the scrolls that make the pages.

These magazines are crazy expensive, too. :smallannoyed:

I love this image, and am totally stealing it for a campaign.

At level 6, the Archivist is limited to mostly cleric spells. He can afford some of the Wizard's best tricks, but not all of them without being seriously behind in other areas.

The Wizard has the higher ceiling with access to Uncanny Forethought, and Mage of the Arcane Order for true versatility.

I love Archivist, but at this juncture I would have to say advantage Wizard.

[Arcanist]

In all seriousness though, it wouldn't be unreasonable for archivists devoted to a god of magic and/or knowledge to set up a divine analogue to the typical wizards' college.

In the core pantheon Boccob would be a perfect fit; TN deity of magic and knowledge who wouldn't care that many of the spells his archivist followers were passing around weren't on any of his domain lists. (he's known as the uncarring after all)

I'm also pretty sure an Archivist of Mystra would be cool to sit down at her temple and loot every spell in creation ever :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

I love this image, and am totally stealing it for a campaign.


Go right. Be sure to credit me or whatever. I need recognition for my snark, otherwise I stop showing it and wonderful opportunities like this are lost. :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

At the given level (6) I wouldn't give the archivist much of a chance. At higher levels, however, I think the archivist has the significant advantage in the spell list, having nearly all the spells wrapped up neatly. (Greater) Any spell and limited wish being on domain lists helps this significantly.

[Arcanist]

At the given level (6) I wouldn't give the archivist much of a chance. At higher levels, however, I think the archivist has the significant advantage in the spell list, having nearly all the spells wrapped up neatly. (Greater) Any spell and limited wish being on domain lists helps this significantly.

Especially considering at roughly 11 the Archivist has access to Dread Secret and can stun lock the Wizard. :smalltongue:

[Wings of Peace]

My money would be on the wizard due to having more support and thus more potential tricks than the archivist. Yes the Archivist has a nice spell list but without some amount of multi-classing that's all the archivist has wheres the wizard has easy 9ths, better metamagic mitigation, etc. as options in -addition- to his spell list.

Once multitasking gets involved (in the higher levels) things get messier but I'd give the wizard the edge due to options like Incantatrix, Mind Mage, and Tainted Scholar.

Were I a gambling man though I'd say that somewhere in the middle of their fight a Sha'ir pops in and takes them both down.

[dextercorvia]

At the given level (6) I wouldn't give the archivist much of a chance. At higher levels, however, I think the archivist has the significant advantage in the spell list, having nearly all the spells wrapped up neatly. (Greater) Any spell and limited wish being on domain lists helps this significantly.

An Archivist has an extremely difficult time taking advantage of Anyspell -- Greater or otherwise. By extremely difficult, I mean that I haven't yet seen a way that didn't involve losing casting levels.

[Snowbluff]

Once multitasking gets involved (in the higher levels) things get messier but I'd give the wizard the edge due to options like Incantatrix, Mind Mage, and Tainted Scholar.

Are you really calling better MM reduction after I cited the Cheatiest Build? The combo is infinite Divine Metamagic. It's a draw in that regard.

[LTwerewolf]

An Archivist has an extremely difficult time taking advantage of Anyspell -- Greater or otherwise. By extremely difficult, I mean that I haven't yet seen a way that didn't involve losing casting levels.

The point isn't that it's the easiest thing ever, the point is they can.

[ojayaba]

important question to ask for these Versus threads is versus in what way?
you say wizard vs archavist, but in what way? strait fight? spelling it? melee? ranged? what sort of environment? what sort of limits are in place for the situation?
when you say level 6, is that no dips, no Prc? because without any of that the open ended book is so open ended that you will never have a solida nswer...

[LTwerewolf]

important question to ask for these Versus threads is versus in what way?
you say wizard vs archavist, but in what way? strait fight? spelling it? melee? ranged? what sort of environment? what sort of limits are in place for the situation?
when you say level 6, is that no dips, no Prc? because without any of that the open ended book is so open ended that you will never have a solida nswer...

He's explained in other threads that he doesn't want a solid answer, whatever your interpretation of it is.

[ojayaba]

He's explained in other threads that he doesn't want a solid answer, whatever your interpretation of it is.

thanks, still kinda new around here and missed the ones pre vs #8

[dextercorvia]

The point isn't that it's the easiest thing ever, the point is they can.

Care to demonstrate?

[LTwerewolf]

1 level dip in cleric (not significant), and then PRC into sovereign speaker. Free domain slots. You end up at CL17 so you still get access to 9's.

This also puts you in line for persistent spell shenanigans.

[Snowbluff]

Sovereign Speaker is relatively weak, since the Archivist can just get scrolls for the spells he would learn, but it might be better than trying to use Anyspell with the Domain slots. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does it matter? Regardless of who wins... reality itself loses. Entire planes of existence are annihilated as the fabric of space and time itself is torn by being pulled in so many directions simultaneously.

Yes. At level 6.

[Wings of Peace]

Are you really calling better MM reduction after I cited the Cheatiest Build? The combo is infinite Divine Metamagic. It's a draw in that regard.

You're going to have to explain to me how your build actually functions. I'm aware of Tenebrous and the divine adaptation for Anima Mage. What I'm not familiar with is how you're combining them with Archivist in a way that they couldn't also be combined with a Wizard. Since Divine Metamagic doesn't require divine spellcasting I don't see how this combination is an Archivist thing instead of just a Binder thing.

Edit: Off the top of my head I'm guessing that you're playing with the fact that Tenebrous offers infinite turning but in a manner that can only be directly used every few rounds. I'm not saying I'm right but if I am that's still a trick that either class can use.

[Cranthis]

He's explained in other threads that he doesn't want a solid answer, whatever your interpretation of it is.

Correct! It is entirely up to the individual poster on how he/she wants to interpret the question.

[LTwerewolf]

Sovereign Speaker is relatively weak, since the Archivist can just get scrolls for the spells he would learn, but it might be better than trying to use Anyspell with the Domain slots. :smalltongue:

I don't see it as weak, you get a lot of domains (and subsequently domain powers) without losing level 9's. You also get DM shenanigans, and the ability to use anyspell and a super easy limited wish. You gain proficiency in all favored weapons of the Host: Battleaxe, halberd, heavy mace, longsword, morningstar, quarterstaff, sickle, spear, and warhammer. You get 2 + INT modifier skill points per level (which I know is not amazing) and the standard Cleric skill list. Also like a Cleric, you get a D8 HD and 3/4 BAB.

[Snowbluff]

Edit: Off the top of my head I'm guessing that you're playing with the fact that Tenebrous offers infinite turning but in a manner that can only be directly used every few rounds. I'm not saying I'm right but if I am that's still a trick that either class can use.

Hmm... with hoops if you are Wizard. DMM was errataed to only work with Divine Spells.

[Cranthis]

Hmm... with hoops if you are Wizard. DMM was errataed to only work with Divine Spells.

I am tired of trying to figure this out on my own. What the heck is dmm?

[LTwerewolf]

I am tired of trying to figure this out on my own. What the heck is dmm?

Divine metamagic. I referred to it in my post.

[Cranthis]

Divine metamagic. I referred to it in my post.

Excellent. Thank you. I do like that feat quite alot.

[LTwerewolf]

Excellent. Thank you. I do like that feat quite alot.

It's the source of most divine magic shenanigans, and the reason turn/rebuke is such a valued asset.

[Snowbluff]

@Ltwerewolf The extra Domain Spells known doesn't matter much unless you are in a setting that doesn't allow for easily spell copying. You are better off with other class features overall.

[LTwerewolf]

@Ltwerewolf The extra Domain Spells known doesn't matter much unless you are in a setting that doesn't allow for easily spell copying. You are better off with other class features overall.

Difficulty in spell copying is a wizard problem as easily as it's an archivist problem. It's not the extra domain spells known, it's the access to slots and the domain powers that are more important. For anyspell to work you need to save it in a domain slot.

For your standard cleric no, it's not a great prestige class. However, this isn't about standard cleric.

[Wings of Peace]

Hmm... with hoops if you are Wizard. DMM was errataed to only work with Divine Spells.

Easy enough. Alternate Source Spell.

[Snowbluff]

Easy enough. Alternate Source Spell.

That's what I call a hoop, brother.

It's not my build. It came up in one of my threads. Just trying to give credit where credit is due.

[Wings of Peace]

That's what I call a hoop, brother.

It's not my build. It came up in one of my threads. Just trying to give credit where credit is due.

I'm not sure if it counts as a hoop or not, a lot of it depends on how we do our feat math. If we're sticking strictly to Base Class + Anima Mage the Wizard should actually break even due to bonus metamagic feats that would otherwise occupy a normal feat slot. And I get what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that strictly speaking, it's not a definite point for the Archivist if the Wizard can do it too.

[Snowbluff]

I'm not sure if it counts as a hoop or not, a lot of it depends on how we do our feat math. If we're sticking strictly to Base Class + Anima Mage the Wizard should actually break even due to bonus metamagic feats that would otherwise occupy a normal feat slot. And I get what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that strictly speaking, it's not a definite point for the Archivist if the Wizard can do it too.

It if it's the best way to do this, then it would bring it to a draw, I think.

Now... okay looking through this, I really want to know where this guy got the Divine Anima Mage from...

[dextercorvia]

1 level dip in cleric (not significant), and then PRC into sovereign speaker. Free domain slots. You end up at CL17 so you still get access to 9's.

This also puts you in line for persistent spell shenanigans.

You get no domain slots above 1st level with this build. Care to try again?

Nevermind, I was forgetting about the other ability.

You are still losing casting levels.

[Cranthis]

News for any and all Versus posters, whether fans from the beginning a few weeks ago, to only discovering it now.

This thread will be now be the main Versus thread, due to request of administration. I will post new Versus in this thread when it is time, and you may feel free to post as usual.

[Wings of Peace]

It if it's the best way to do this, then it would bring it to a draw, I think.

Now... okay looking through this, I really want to know where this guy got the Divine Anima Mage from...

It's mentioned under one of the subcategories as I recall. I think under Adaptation in this case but I could be wrong.

[LTwerewolf]

You get no domain slots above 1st level with this build. Care to try again?

Nevermind, I was forgetting about the other ability.

You are still losing casting levels.

And yet you're still getting 9's, which is the important part.

[Snowbluff]

It's mentioned under one of the subcategories as I recall. I think under Adaptation in this case but I could be wrong.

Yeah I checked the Adaptation subcategory. Couldn't find it. :smallannoyed:

I checked the Apostate as well. Doesn't seem to be a Wizard compatible variant. Which makes me very sad. :smallfrown:

[eggs]

The relevant blurb is:
"You could also relax the prerequisites to open this prestige class to any spellcaster - or even a psionic character."

[dextercorvia]

And yet you're still getting 9's, which is the important part.

Let me explain a different way. You are willing to lose 3 casting levels and forgo other abilities in order to gain access to a portion of the wizard spell list.

[Snowbluff]

The relevant blurb is:
"You could also relax the prerequisites to open this prestige class to any spellcaster - or even a psionic character."

YOU know what this means right?

Tibbit/AwakenedCat/HairySpider Psion/AnimaMage! All of the dumb stuff!

[LTwerewolf]

Let me explain a different way. You are willing to lose 3 casting levels and forgo other abilities in order to gain access to a portion of the wizard spell list.

And several more domain powers and weapon proficiencies, as well as heavier armor proficiency. And if you're that obsessive about the 3 caster levels, just take practiced spellcaster. Since you're not losing 9's, it covers the ground.