PrC's for a Fighter/Wizard?

[qwertyu63]

I will be making a character who will be a Fighter/Wizard, using the Armored Mage ACF from Complete Mage. They will be a melee caster, which I know isn't a very bright idea, but just go with it. That's all I've decided thus far, but what I want to know is if there are any PrC's for this kind of character.

[GoatBoy]

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) is often regarded as the strongest fighter/caster prestige class.

If you are a dwarf, the Runecaster (Races of Stone) will allow you to essentially make arcane spell failure from armour a non-issue.

[qwertyu63]

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) is often regarded as the strongest fighter/caster prestige class.

If you are a dwarf, the Runecaster (Races of Stone) will allow you to essentially make arcane spell failure from armour a non-issue.

That class looks very nice. It has also pointed me to other classes (which reading them are inferior to it. you weren't kidding about it being the best), so thanks for the pointer.

The character is actually going to be a half-goblin, which I need to stat up already.

[Cranthis]

As above, Abjurant Champion. Eldritch knight is an sort of ok way to go, if you run out of options.

[Keld Denar]

The operative word here is "gish", an old term for Gith-yanki fighter/magic-users from older editions. Do a quick google search for "D&D gish builds", or "site:giantitp.com gish build" and you'll come up with HUNDREDS of ideas. Pick the ones you like and incorporate them into your build. AbjChamp, as mentioned, is probably THE best PrC for this build. Other ones are the Eldritch Knight (DMG), Knight Phantom (Five Nations- Eberron), Spellsword (CWarrior, generally 1 level dip), Dragonslayer (Draconomicon, generally a 1 level dip), Ruathar (Races of the Wild), and Sacred Exorcist (CDivine). Generally, the idea is to try to keep as many caster levels as possible while still having a decent BAB. Casting can make up for any shortfalls in your build.

[Eldariel]

Important part to remember:
1 level in Fighter gives you 1 BAB and 0 casting.
1 level in Wizard gives you 1 casting and 0.5 BAB.

So you want to take the maximum number of Wizard levels and the minimum number of Fighter levels to qualify for the prestige classes that advance both.


For the build you're going with, 1 level of Spellsword could be good (any more and you lose even more casting which is a kind of a poor proposition). As such, a reasonable build you could go with would be:
Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5

This would mean you're only 2 BAB and 2 casting levels behind a full class up until level 12 (at that point you need to enter some other prestige class since you have full levels in Abjurant Champion already; e.g. Sacred Exorcist is a decent option that maintains your casting while only losing 2 BAB, giving you 16 BAB and 18 casting on level 20).


At this point, I'm not sure you even need Armored Mage; Spellsword reduces Arcane Spell Failure; then just buy Mithral Plate with the Twilight enchantment and you can wear almost anything with no arcane spell failure.

[Snowbluff]

Swiftblade. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) Yooooouuuu forgooot Swiiiiiiftblaaaaaaade... OOOH I am a ghoooooost~!

[ravagerofworlds]

I'm always a fan of Fighter 2/Wizard 5 -> pick your prestige class, say Eldritch Knight.

Why?

The extra fighter feat allows you to bridge into an Improved Disarm/Trip/etc. if you choose Combat Expertise. Even at mid levels, being able to add your BAB to your AC can be useful, especially when casting spells which may result in an AoO (a bad roll on Concentration).

My current toon runs the simpler build, with a mithril breastplate of twilight (max Dex cap +5), so my Dex 16 elf can still use Cat's Grace to buff up. This results in 0% spell failure coupled with a mithril large shield of twilight. You lose 3 off AC for a breastplate vs. plate, but movement 30' is better than 20', even coupled with spells like Haste.

Being a melee spellcaster is not a bad idea at all. But it depends on how melee you want to be... and how much of a spellcaster you want to be for your toon.

My build allows to half tank (albeit at a lower hit point total than a straight up fighter), with a high AC, and still leave room for at least 3 item creation feats (scribe scrolls, wondrous/brewpotion, and the 5th level wizard feat).

[tyckspoon]

I will be making a character who will be a Fighter/Wizard, using the Armored Mage ACF from Complete Mage.

Don't. Armored Mage is pretty trashy, for 2 major reasons. The first and biggest is that its benefit only applies for spells of up to (Fighter level +1); if you do a Fighter 2 stub before you go into PrCs, you only get the benefit of the ACF for spells level 3 and lower. If the game lasts long enough that you advance past that point, you still have to find a different ACF solution for your higher-level spells.

The other problem is that giving up your medium and heavy armor proficiencies disqualifies you from Spellsword.

[Wonton]

No one's mentioned Suel Archanamach from Complete Arcane yet!

...Because it's terrible. You have awful pre-requisites and the only class features you get are %Arcane Spell Failure reduction and double-duration buffs.

[Rejakor]

Also, as this is an unseen hurdle in gish-making, if you want to cast buffs on yourself, try to find a way to do so that doesn't mean wasting combat turns - as combat will likely be over if you try to spend combat turns buffing. Either in favour of your group, or not in favour of your group.

Persistent Buffs, Quickened Buffs, or war weaver quiescent weaving buffs, or ten minutes/level or longer buffs. rounds/level buffs are only good if you have a way around casting them in combat, or you're ambushing someone.

[Snowbluff]

... which is why Swiftblade is so great. Swift Action haste that covers a couple other good buffs at the same time.

[qwertyu63]

This is not for some high OP game. I'm just going to go with Abjurant Champion, with the other levels mixed between Wizard and Fighter as strikes my fancy. Thanks for the help, I'm done here.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You want to get a +16 BAB and 9th level spells by 20th level. That means you can lose four BAB in twenty levels, but only three levels of casting with wizard, or only two levels of casting with sorcerer.

Only get Fighter 2, never ever more than two of that, and sometimes only one. The casting loss is just too costly.

There are certain classes, and particular levels of certain classes, that are more efficient for both BAB and casting than any other classes/levels.

Abjurant Champion is at 100% for both casting and BAB for all five levels. Spellsword if you only take one level is just as good as Abjurant Champion, and is prerequisites are exactly one level sooner. You can pretty much just consider Spellsword 1 the first level of the six-level class that is Abjurant Champion. Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion is the ideal build, unless you're using Lightning Warrior. You can substitute half of those Fighter and Wizard levels with Human or Elf Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm), so you'll be H/E Paragon 1/ Fighter 1/ Wizard 2/ H/E Paragon 2/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, but that's only if you're using one of those races. Either racial paragon class is a slight upgrade to just Fighter 2/ Wizard 4, but it is noticeably better. The only reason to ever get Fighter 2 above using one of those is if you get the Dungeoncrasher ACF from Dungeonscape, in which case you should learn the spell Melf's Unicorn Arrow in PH2. Note that Spellsword requires heavy armor proficiency, plus you should be casting (Greater) Luminous Armor from BoED instead of wearing armor, since that also benefits from Abjurant Champion (and Mage Armor doesn't). For those reasons plus what tyckspoon said, you can just forget that Armored Mage even exists.

There are a few classes that can be used as filler in a build like this to keep both the BAB and casting progressions until 20th. Eldritch Knight is the most obvious choice for this, but Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) is also a decent choice. Knight Phantom would be the better choice, but it has a feat prerequisite that you're not going to like once you realize just how feat-starved this type of build can be. On that note, always use the Martial Wizard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) variant from UA to get a Fighter bonus feat instead of Scribe Scroll. Sacred Exorcist is another good choice for filler on builds that can afford to lose more BAB than casting (particularly the standard Sorcerer+Paladin build).

A fairly standard build, considering the above racial paragon substitute, would be Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ (Class) 4/ Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 4. That class you take for four levels can be any combination of classes that gives you 2/4 BAB and 4/4 casting. The absolute strongest choice to put there is Incantatrix 4, which gets Persistent Spell shenanigans (get its Iron Will prerequisite from the Otyugh Hole in CS). You could use Divine Oracle 4 (gaining its feat prerequisite via the Frog God's Fane in CS) to get Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, which are useful on any melee build. Paragnostic Apostle 2 or 4 is also good, especially with Mind Over Matter and (Greater) Luminous Armor. You could also go for Master Specialist 4 depending on what school you pick, but it's not exactly amazing. If you really need a lot of Fighter feats for whatever reason, you can get two more Martial Wizard there for an extra one plus two Paragnostic Apostle, and go with Eldritch Knight afterward.

As a bit of a distraction from all that, one build that deserves an honorable mention is Martial Wizard 6/ Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9/ Abjurant Champion 5. It manages to get 9th level spells and a +17 BAB at 20th level, you can get the prerequisites for Swiftblade via your Martial Wizard bonus feats, and it's got all of those Swiftblade goodies. Swiftblade is definitely an attractive class, but it's basically all-or-nothing and doesn't offer anything worth losing 9th level spells for. If you can use the Fractional BAB variant in UA, start out Wizard 5/ Paragnostic Apostle 1 instead, with Spatial Awareness.

[Endarire]

Why not go Martial Adept/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage instead? (See Tome of Battle for details.)

And the Armored Mage ACF is just ick. You're better off with spells for AC. But if you insist...

[navar100]

As an alternative, read up on Duskblade to see if it's to your liking. It's a 20 level base class that's a built in warrior/magic user. You don't have access to the whole variety of arcane spells available to a wizard, but you get a decent access list along with interesting melee abilities to mesh with your magic. You'll have the aesthetic feel of playing a warrior/magic use from level 1 and perhaps easier to focus on your build (spells, feats, skill point allocation, etc.) since you're single class.

Abjurant Champion is the most popular prestige class, but RAW does not fit with RAI in regards to Mage Armor. Check with your DM to see if he's willing to house rule synergy with it as it was meant to be; otherwise, you're stuck with regular Mage Armor but casting Shield will almost always be your first action in a combat. Probably would be anyway even with the house rule Mage Armor synergy.

[Snowbluff]

JPM Roughly equates to 1 Empower and 1 Quicken per encounter. It favors blasting over buffing. The way Initiator Level works make taking levels in this hardly worth it until later levels.

IMO, you are better with a Class with Channel Spell (Like the Ordained Champion) of somekind, then when you do a strike, release the spell.

@Navar Luminous Armor is an Abjuration. I don't think this guy would like that...:smalltongue:

Getting Mage Armor, Greater helps a lot.

[GoatBoy]

This is not for some high OP game. I'm just going to go with Abjurant Champion, with the other levels mixed between Wizard and Fighter as strikes my fancy. Thanks for the help, I'm done here.

No you're not! You're going to sit here and evaluate every feat, spell, prestige class, alternate class feature, and skill trick we suggest to you, across three dozen splatbooks and several more web supplements, until a consensus has been reached that you have squeezed every drop of optimization out of your character!

Just kidding. Have fun with your character!

[Aquillion]

Another fun option is the Arcane Paladin variant combined with that feat that allows Paladins to cast their spells as a swift action. It's not as powerful as some of the more casting-heavy fighter-mage types, of course (let alone full casters), but getting all your spells as swift action for free can make up a lot.

[Snowbluff]

Another fun option is the Arcane Paladin variant combined with that feat that allows Paladins to cast their spells as a swift action. It's not as powerful as some of the more casting-heavy fighter-mage types, of course (let alone full casters), but getting all your spells as swift action for free can make up a lot.

Sword of the Arcane Order? Doesn't synergize with Battle Blessing at all, since battle blessing only works for Paladin spells, not wizard spells.

[Rejakor]

It's much more reasonable homebrew than most things DMs get asked to okay, though.

[Acanous]

Heh, I was just about to point at sword of the Arcane Order. Suel Arcanamach isn't that bad, really. It's biggest problems is that you don't get much from it in comparison to Ab. Champ.
If you need something to go into after 12, it could work for you.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Sword of the Arcane Order? Doesn't synergize with Battle Blessing at all, since battle blessing only works for Paladin spells, not wizard spells.

This discussion is taking place right now in another thread. Let's not bring it in here too. The interaction between battle blessing and Sword of the Arcane Order is ambiguous enough to require a DM call. There are arguments to be made both for and against the two interacting that way. So let's not derail the OP's thread, eh?

*ponders making a thread for that very discussion, so it won't derail other threads for a while*

[qwertyu63]

I'm back with more stuff I came across.

First, some notes. This will likely not even approach level 20, let alone get there. As such, I don't care to much about getting 9th spells and +16 BAB by then.

With that in mind, is the Battle Sorcerer from UA any good? From a glance, it seems to hit my checklist (At least 3/4 BAB, can cast spells, can do so in light armor with out ASF, halfway decent hit dice). For those who don't know it...

Quoth the SRD:

Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die
d8.

Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.

Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

On a bit of a tangent, is there any easy way to change which stat the Sorcerer spellcasting keys off of?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Battle Sorcerer is made of fail. Fewer spells known = bad idea. Always. Yes, even then.

You might want to re-read the Armored Mage ACF. It only permits casting in light armor and shields up to the spell level equal to your number of Fighter levels making it effectively WORTHLESS.

If you want casting in light armor, dip a level of Spellthief and take the feat Master Spellthief.


No one's mentioned Suel Archanamach from Complete Arcane yet!

...Because it's terrible. You have awful pre-requisites and the only class features you get are %Arcane Spell Failure reduction and double-duration buffs.

Actually, Suel Arcanamach is surprisingly powerful for doing what it does.. buffing and removing buffs from opponents. Combine with Abjurant Champion and you net something like your BAB + 8 for effective casting level, and can drop Dispels as a Swift action or even as part of an attack.

SA also pairs stupidly well with War Weaver for party-level buffing.

It's not a traditional 'gish' class, in that it doesn't advance an already existent spellcasting progression. It has its own casting, which is surprisingly powerful within its realm. And of course, it's pretty easy to graft spells onto a spell list.

[Coidzor]

With that in mind, is the Battle Sorcerer from UA any good? From a glance, it seems to hit my checklist (At least 3/4 BAB, can cast spells, can do so in light armor with out ASF, halfway decent hit dice). For those who don't know it...

It's OKish, but not really good per se. It depends on what level ranges you're actually going to be playing at.



On a bit of a tangent, is there any easy way to change which stat the Sorcerer spellcasting keys off of?

Illumians can change what stat their bonus spells are keyed to based upon their sigils, as I recall, but there's no easy way to change your primary casting stat as a sorcerer to my recollection.

[Eldariel]

The principal issue with Battle Sorcerer is that Sorcs are already starved for Spells Known. Now you lose one more and there are precious few ways to get more. It really hurts outside very high levels (where being able to single-class Battle Sorc gets you more top level spells than Gish-builds).

So if you were to play on level 20 and wanted a Gish, then Battle Sorc/Abjurant Champion might be interesting, but if the game ends long before then...

[Snowbluff]

The principal issue with Battle Sorcerer is that Sorcs are already starved for Spells Known. Now you lose one more and there are precious few ways to get more. It really hurts outside very high levels (where being able to single-class Battle Sorc gets you more top level spells than Gish-builds).

So if you were to play on level 20 and wanted a Gish, then Battle Sorc/Abjurant Champion might be interesting, but if the game ends long before then...

They actually have more 9th know than a sorc dropping 2 levels and their CL is higher. :smalltongue:

[Eldariel]

They actually have more 9th know than a sorc dropping 2 levels and their CL is higher. :smalltongue:

Precisely what I was referring to with the level 20 viability :smalltongue:

[Urpriest]

To modify the earlier advice about +16 BAB and 9ths by level 20: since most games don't get to level 20, you generally want to get as many attacks and as high a spell level as you can in the levels you expect to get to. Now usually this involves roughly the same builds, but occasionally you've got more options.

Let's assume you're going up to level 12. Then Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5 will get you +10 BAB, not enough for your 3rd attack. It will give you your 2nd attack at level 8, so you'll have that for a decent chunk of the game. In terms of spell levels, you'll have 5th level spells by level 11.

If instead you went with Battle Sorceror, you'd have BAB +9 at the end, and get your second attack at 8th level as well. You would have 6th level spells, but only one, and only at the very last level of your progression. You would be a single spell level ahead of the above build, but you'd have to choose your spells known much more carefully, which means that you'd need to optimize much more than you would as a Wizard, which doesn't seem like what you want to do.

[Rejakor]

You seem like you want relatively low-op and low-maintenance suggestions - how about a Duskblade, from PHBII?

They get to cast in armour, hit people with fire on their swords, have a terrible spell list but are perfectly okay for low optimization games because punching someone with a Combust sword swing never really gets old.

They are also int-based, which may be a plus.

[etrpgb]

The little raiding hood (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7200.0) is awaiting you. Seek the Build 8: The Trancer.

[LTwerewolf]

Races of Renown- Bastards and Bloodlines has a feat Lost traditions where you change your casting stat to something else. It specifies that the feat must be taken at level 1, but it does not specify that the casting stat has to even be a mental stat. I'm sure there's some abuse for an ubercharger wizard somewhere.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm back with more stuff I came across.

First, some notes. This will likely not even approach level 20, let alone get there. As such, I don't care to much about getting 9th spells and +16 BAB by then.

With that in mind, is the Battle Sorcerer from UA any good? From a glance, it seems to hit my checklist (At least 3/4 BAB, can cast spells, can do so in light armor with out ASF, halfway decent hit dice). For those who don't know it...

Quoth the SRD:

Sorcerer Variant: Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die
d8.

Base Attack Bonus
The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.

Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting
A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

On a bit of a tangent, is there any easy way to change which stat the Sorcerer spellcasting keys off of?

Battle Sorcerer can be useful, but it involves some very specific tricks. It does get fewer spells/day and spells known, but the spells known can be made up for with a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). You can take the feat Ancestral Relic (BoED) and you'll get to pick exactly what spells it has. If the party would sell junk loot for half value, buy it out of the party's treasure pool for that price, and when that sum gets divided you'll get a portion back. Sacrifice the loot's full value into your relic, so you get to upgrade it for less than half price. Its properties have to stay within the level based value limit, but you can store up as much value in it as you want for later use. Each time you upgrade/modify what magical properties it has, you can completely change everything about it, as long as the end result is the same type of item (staff) and stays within the value limit. That means you can trade out the spells it grants for different ones whenever you get some downtime.

If you're going that route, you may as well combine it with the Stalwart Sorcerer variant in Complete Mage. That gets yet fewer spells known, but you get an extra +2 HP per Sorcerer level and a martial weapon proficiency plus weapon focus. You won't get any of the per-Sorcerer-level benefits of Battle/Stalwart Sorcerer for any prestige class levels you take, such as Abjurant Champion, which is why those are often declared worthless, but for an intentionally less optimal character it's one of the more ideal choices.

[NoobForHire]

Can I ask what's so good about a single Spellsword level? As I see it, you don't get a caster level, point of BAB, or decreased spell failure until the second level of it. Am I missing something?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Can I ask what's so good about a single Spellsword level? As I see it, you don't get a caster level, point of BAB, or decreased spell failure until the second level of it. Am I missing something?

You're probably looking at the 3.0 version from Sword and Fist, the current 3.5 version is in Complete Warrior. That one gives +1 level of spellcasting, 10% spell failure reduction, +1 BAB, and two good saves at the first level.

The point is that Spellsword only requires a +4 BAB and 2nd level spells, whereas Abjurant Champion requires a +5 BAB. You get as much spellcasting as possible while qualifying for Spellsword as early as possible, then after that one level of spellsword you've qualified for abjurant champion.

[NoobForHire]

Whoops, you're right. That's what I get for checking what book it's in off of a google search.

[TopCheese]

Races of Renown- Bastards and Bloodlines has a feat Lost traditions where you change your casting stat to something else. It specifies that the feat must be taken at level 1, but it does not specify that the casting stat has to even be a mental stat. I'm sure there's some abuse for an ubercharger wizard somewhere.

This has been one of the things I wished was written into the rules in core. Instead of having one casting stat, let the PC choose a mental stat.

Fluff it however you want.

But onto the topic.

To bad you can't just gestalt wizard/fighter, that would be nice.