Sizing weapons: Dwarven Waraxe falls, everyone dies?

[CardCaptor]

I was running a session with my players, when one of them decided to buy a Dwarven Waraxe, and apply the sizing upgrade on it. I found that truly curious, as the guy in question was a small-sized wizard. Time passes by, I forget about it, and there's an encounter in the open wild. My wizard then declares that he flies high up, changes the sizes of his dwarven waraxe from a tiny item to Colossal +++ (we're running with a lot of Savage Species stuff), and drop it onto the battlefield. I've calculated that he's effectively dropped onto the battlefield a amazing 67,108,864 lbs dwarven waraxe (I've reached this number by going with the logic that changing the size of an object from Medium to Large makes it 8 times heavier, the Large to Huge, etc. but I might be wrong on this) an extreme large radius due to its amazing size. I stepped back a minute and tried to figure if there were anything in the rules about this, and the only relevant thing I've found is that falling objects can't deal more than 20d6 damage when they land (instead of that 335,544d6 if that rule didn't exist). But who's gonna have enough strenght to get out of there and not die from crushing damage?

Since the session was coming to an end anyway, I called the day off and told them I'd come back with an answer. Now, I don't really mind cheesing in my games, and I'm usually pretty lax when it comes to the rules, I usually don't mind this kinda stuff, but really, am I doing something wrong? Did I misread something? There seems to be no effective limit on what size you can change a weapon into with the Sizing option, and you can just do stuff like that all day every day? Even if my math could off, there's no doubt that such a weapon would be incredibly heavy and nearly unescapable if you're stuck under it.

[Qwertystop]

All I've got to say is that you should remember: It's not a circle. It's a Dwarven Waraxe. Have the player draw out a picture of the axe, in siloughette, and make sure that when he does this in future it actually happens.

Also, maybe a Reflex save to let go fast enough to prevent his fingers from being snapped by the handle expanding so fast.

Finally, make sure to keep track of the fact that when something falls on something else, both take damage. Thus, the weapon is limited-use, moreso if enemies have something really hard and sharp on them, like Adamantine.

[Deophaun]

First, as it comes to inescapably, no matter how heavy something is, it falls at the same rate as everything else.

Second, the sizing ability does not change the weapon's size, it changes its size category. This works a tad bit differently, as it means the weapon's weight only doubles each category, and it starts out as medium, not tiny (unless he bought an axe for a tiny creature, but they'll both get you to the same point).

So, you've got six increases from Savage Species for a medium-sized weapon (which is 3.0. If you're using those rules and not updating to 3.5, the weight increase is only 50%, not 100%).

Start with your 8lb weapon, and double it six times. That brings it to 512 lbs. It deals an extra 2d6 when dropped from more than 10 feet due to its weight.

[Kerilstrasz]

Well.. here's what i think...
in order to activate a weapons special ability you have to hold it right?
(at least that's how i play it)
so...
yes he uses the ability and does that enormous dmg...
but then...
he can't actually "hold" that colossal+++ weapon... merely touch it...
so its a "1 time use bomb" that costs weapon price + 2k for +1 + 5k and leaves
you with an enormous nice statue of a weapon...
ofc after that you can toss all this bk at him if you have a bit of imagination...
like: ...
a devastating earthquake that annihilates the continent and "bam" now you are
the most wanted Evil Creature on the planet!
or..
an ancient legendary evil giant, now finds a weapon that suits him :P

[Kelb_Panthera]

Go ahead and roll with it, then inform him that he's out one magic waraxe. The sizing ability can only be activated by the character wielding the weapon and it's now much too big for the character to wield. He can't shrink it back down, and I'm betting he can't even move the thing with his magic at that weight. He's found a way to get an effective battelfield nuke for 8k, but that's it; fire it one time and it's gone along with whatever you nuked.

[Deophaun]

He's found a way to get an effective battelfield nuke for 8k, but that's it; fire it one time and it's gone along with whatever you nuked.
The problem is, this is a very cheap nuke at 8k. The 20d6 limit is for distance only, not for weight. (OP, read page 303 in the DMG again)

It's better to use the actual rules regarding sizing weapons and falling, instead of trying to create a patchwork that will lead to trouble down the road. As the rules exist, this trick is not broken, and is actually a very ineffective use of the sizing property.

Edit: SRD


For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

"To a maximum of 20d6 points of damage" only applies to the effect of distance, not weight.

[Splynn]

How high up did he fly? As others have pointed out, everything falls at the same rate. The axe takes time to hit the ground. I would make it take until his next action for it to actually happen.

Meanwhile, everyone down below is now *very* aware that something very large is falling towards them. I would give them all their actions. He's flying to at least 200 feet up to get the 20d6; that's more than 6 seconds of falling.

Honestly I wouldn't let it do much except against immobile or unintelligent enemies. Even goblins would know enough to move.

Maybe a Will save, for saving against fear. Otherwise they just stand still staring at it or move erratically. But I definitely wouldn't simply allow the thing to hit everyone.

[Curmudgeon]

Any very large object drops unaimed, because it's too big to wield as an improvised thrown weapon. That means that the DM decides which square(s) the item hits. Also, anyone on the ground can avoid a dropped (unaimed) missile with a DC 15 Reflex save, regardless of the size of the missile. From the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle on page 68:
Damage: The damage dealt by a dropped object is based on the weight of the object and the distance the object falls, as noted on page 303 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save.

[BowStreetRunner]

Deophaun is correct that the weapon itself is not colossal, it is merely sized for a colossal wielder and weight of a weapon only doubles each category increase. Regardless of what size it starts at, all dwarven waraxe stats are based off of an 8 lb weapon for a medium wielder, so a colossal dwarven waraxe would be 128 lbs (8x2x2x2x2=128).

[Garan]

Also, how large would it actually become? You look at the scaling in some pictures, and I don't think it would become large enough to squash more than 80 or so people. Alernatively, you could look at the "size" of the object (would it be "tiny" "diminutive" etc.) as a stand alone object. Then just scale that to be proportional to a colossal creature.

[ericgrau]

Even if he could find a way to wield it again the fall would destroy it.

Maybe you wouldn't apply normal falling damage to objects, but it undoubtedly took a lot of damage. And if there's no rule for this, that's getting a bit too RAW silly even if you're lax.

[Deophaun]

Even if he could find a way to wield it again the fall would destroy it.

Maybe you wouldn't apply normal falling damage to objects, but it undoubtedly took a lot of damage. And if there's no rule for this, that's getting a bit too RAW silly even if you're lax.
Maximum of 20d6 from distance. Objects are not damaged by their own weight in a fall.

Not sure how it's RAW silly in this case, as its weight only adds an extra 2d6 by RAW.

[GoblinGrenade]

Won't it fall blade-down? It should be a line nuke. I don't think he could control exactly how it falls, so roll d12 to find the direction that the line is going in (roll 1, 1 o'clock position, 2 for 2 o'clock, etc). Essentially a very risky nuke that could hit the party and no enemies, or the reverse, or some mix of both.

I don't know what to say about damage though, but the others in this thread seem to be on top of it.

[MesiDoomstalker]

For everyone saying he can't deshrink it since he can't wield it, dispel magic. Suppress it for a few rounds, wield it. Prepare an action to size to medium when suppression wears off.

[doko239]

I'd say, give him enough rope to hang himself with.

Note: the following in no way reflects the actual rules, and is more a thought exercise to figure out just what the effects would be for Mr. Wizard and his pals. Feel free to drop this on him though (pun intended) :smallamused:



Ask him just how large he makes the axe. For our purposes, let's assume that the original numbers are correct, and the total weight of the newly-created axe is 67,108,864 lbs. Let's also assume the axe is made of iron, to keep things simple.

Iron has a density of 491 lbs/cubic foot. That gives us a volume of appx. 136678 cubic feet of Axe that suddenly appears in midair in under 6 seconds. That's a whole lot of air with nowhere to go. Furthermore, the axe immediately starts falling to earth, during that same 6 seconds, displacing more air as it goes and creating a vacuum behind it.

Ever see the movie Pushing Tin? Remember the scene where they stand underneath the 747 as it lands and get blown right the hell away into the field? Well we're talking about something that weighs over 60 times as much, and moving at a much faster rate, straight down. Anything on the ground at or near the impact zone would be utterly unrecognizable afterwards, and anything in the air above or near it (read: the Wizard who Did It) would get sucked down in its wake and crash into the ground at pretty near terminal velocity.

Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Thoughts? :smallbiggrin:

Just one.

Why would you do that to those poor catgirls? Don't you think the little ears and tail are cute? They're not all whiney and annoying. :smallfrown:

[ericgrau]

Maximum of 20d6 from distance. Objects are not damaged by their own weight in a fall.

Not sure how it's RAW silly in this case, as its weight only adds an extra 2d6 by RAW.

I mean the axe would break from falling 20 stories, making whether or not you're able to pick it up again moot.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There is some precedent for large objects taking damage on impacts; the rules for vehicular collision in the arms and equipment guide.

An axe isn't a vehicle and neither is the ground, so it's definitely not RAW, but if you wanted to houserule how much damage it would take that might be a good starting point.

[ericgrau]

Ya, seems like you'd have to. But a +1 waraxe can only handle 32 damage, regardless of most special properties. So even if it doesn't take the full ~70 damage, it's probably broken.

[Deophaun]

I mean the axe would break from falling 20 stories, making whether or not you're able to pick it up again moot.
20d6, on average, is 70 points of damage, while your sized-colossal++ +1 dwarven battleaxe has a hardness of 7 and 18 hp if my math is correct. Yeah, I'd say if you dropped it from 20 stories, it would break.

And math wasn't. Looked at the wrong column. Hardness of 7, hp of 30. Still it's likely gone.

[ericgrau]

I missed the note on size category. So 170+ hp. Really a heavier axe should take extra damage too, but falling rules don't cover that. I'm done trying to make sense of it :smalltongue:.

[Deophaun]

I missed the note on size category. So 170+ hp. Really a heavier axe should take extra damage too, but falling rules don't cover that. I'm done trying to make sense of it :smalltongue:.
Bah, and here I was trying to calculate it by thickness (where I got my measly X4)

But it is more than that. There are six size increases here, so its hardness 7 with 370 hp. By RAW, as long as you don't size it too far down (gargantuan size if you rolled below average for 50 hp at 64 lbs. Otherwise...), you can recover it and spend money getting it fixed back up.

[Spuddles]

Any very large object drops unaimed, because it's too big to wield as an improvised thrown weapon. That means that the DM decides which square(s) the item hits. Also, anyone on the ground can avoid a dropped (unaimed) missile with a DC 15 Reflex save, regardless of the size of the missile. From the Aerial Bombardment rules in Heroes of Battle on page 68:

Damage: The damage dealt by a dropped object is based on the weight of the object and the distance the object falls, as noted on page 303 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. A creature can avoid damage from the attack by making a DC 15 Reflex save.

These rules are the RAW way to shut down any attempt at aerial munchkinism, yet for some reason when this stuff comes up, they're often ignored.

I mean, look at all this discussion here. No matter how good of a "nuke" this is, there's still the fact that a DC15 reflex save negates it.

[Curmudgeon]

Maximum of 20d6 from distance.
Sorry, but you're confusing the falling creature and falling object rules, which are rather different. See the referenced page in the DMG for falling objects.

[Deophaun]

Sorry, but you're confusing the falling creature and falling object rules, which are rather different. See the referenced page in the DMG for falling objects.

Sorry, but I quoted the relevant passage. The 20d6 limit only relates to the additional damage done by falling distance. It does not relate to the object's weight.

[Ashtagon]

Pounds per square inch. Tanks don't have tracks for show; they are needed to reduce the ground pressure enough that they won't sink in loose earth.

That oversize waraxe is going to sink deep into the ground and be as good as lost.

[SowZ]

Pounds per square inch. Tanks don't have tracks for show; they are needed to reduce the ground pressure enough that they won't sink in loose earth.

That oversize waraxe is going to sink deep into the ground and be as good as lost.

Also, it isn't indestructible. So there is that, too. It being an efficient Nuke for 8k isn't a problem. The DM can simply make it difficult to find a sizing enchant in the future. Besides, it does not seem metagamy or cheesy or purely TO like the commoner railgun or somesuch. And pulling it off doesn't take the Wizard knowing about the game mechanics or his own stats.

On the contrary, in a world of magic and monster fighting, if you COULD fly above someone and then drop objects that will then increase in weight drastically, there is no reason the 18 Int Wizard wouldn't have thought of it.

[hoverfrog]

Parallax error. he's dropping something from a great height and hoping to hit a creature 200 feet away. He could probably figure out a way of targeting bombs properly after a few shots that miss the battlefield completely but the first one should almost certainly miss.

[Darrin]

Sorry, but I quoted the relevant passage. The 20d6 limit only relates to the additional damage done by falling distance. It does not relate to the object's weight.

Falling objects were given a more explicit damage cap in the Rules Compendium:

"A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage."

Thus, both weight and height are capped at 20d6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Falling objects were given a more explicit damage cap in the Rules Compendium:

"A falling object can deal a maximum of 20d6 points of damage."

Thus, both weight and height are capped at 20d6.

This was probably a direct result of a war-hulking hurler being able to chuck small mountains at people for ludicrous amounts of damage.

[Darrin]

This was probably a direct result of a war-hulking hurler being able to chuck small mountains at people for ludicrous amounts of damage.

Actually, no. The Hulking Hurler builds uses the Improvised Weapon Damage table (Complete Warrior p. 159), which includes the text:

"For every additional 200 pounds of an object’s weight beyond 400 pounds, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage if used as an improvised weapon."

As far as I know, that's never been capped.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, no. The Hulking Hurler builds uses the Improvised Weapon Damage table (Complete Warrior p. 159), which includes the text:

"For every additional 200 pounds of an object’s weight beyond 400 pounds, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage if used as an improvised weapon."

As far as I know, that's never been capped.

Go go gadget logical inconsistency!

Silly WotC. :smalltongue:

edit: come to think of it, just because they put the cap on the wrong thing doesn't necessarily mean that war-hulking hurler wasn't the impetus. It's entirely possible (some might even say probable) that the Wizo's just screwed up again and capped the wrong mechanic.

[Deophaun]

Falling objects were given a more explicit damage cap in the Rules Compendium:
Curse you, clearly written Rules Compendium! I shall have my revenge!

[CardCaptor]

Thanks for the advices, guys. This'll help me sort it out. One last question, though: would the damages of this falling object be magical?

[ericgrau]

Hmmmmmm......


Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat.




Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

[Crossblade]

would the damages of this falling object be magical?

No, completely physical, even if it was +4 flaming, only physical damage would happen, not flaming and no +4 applied because that only applies when the weapon is wielded. So less worry about having a shelf of magical pointy items fall on you.

This thread did have a lot of inconsistency though. The correct points I saw were:
*falling object takes damage itself (drop a glass on the floor, it'll shatter)
*an axe is weighted, it's blade will fall before its hilt, and considering the lack of strength a small sized creature has, the sharp end is more likely to be facing down rather than the blade be flat
*Reflex DC 15 to dodge falling objects, by RAW
*Max dmg 20d6, axe's hardness and hp need to be remembered