Building a Minotaur Battle Cleric, need experienced Advice

[Silentone98]

Firstly, hello all.

My issue is I am struggling with a character design and would like some advice. To start however, you must be aware of the guidelines this character is being built under. Our DM is starting a new campaign in which he states "I want to take off the kiddie gloves and smack you guys around with a real challenge" and to this effect, is granting eveyone with a free +2 LA of their choice. Or alternatively take a powerful item in exchange, to start with. He also, for all his campaigns, ignores racial levels fully, you simply pretend they arnt there and take everything else thats not from racial levels.

Well,.. I choose Minotaur(and call it a steal, hell yea im jumping on that!), with the concept of a battle cleric, my ending stats AFTER racial adjust are as follows:
STR:24 INT:10
DEX:15 WIS:18
CON:20 CHA:11

starting with war domain and good domain as a cleric whorshipping Heirenious, with plans to jump into Ordain Champion at 5th Level

This is my feat choices.
Lvl 1-Combat Reflexs
lvl 3-Touch of Healing
nonfeat, Lvl 4 stat: DEX +1
lvl 5 Ordain Champions Domain power Conversion- Dodge/Mobility
lvl 6-Craft Wand
nonfeat, Lvl 8 stat: WIS +1
lvl 9-Holy Warrior
nonfeat, Lvl 12 stat: WIS +1 (full CON after this, likely wont matter)
lvl 12-Spring Attack
lvl 15-
lvl 18-

So basically, eventually(lvl 12) he'll take one big attack and then get away from ya with spring attack, forcing you to close in and enter his reach and take AOO. He'll still grab out of combat healing without issues at all, but during combat it'll be a toss up between whats more effective, healing companions or killing the enemy dealing the damage? Obviously it's a situational call.
weaponry will include longsword and shield as my defencive set, a longspear, and a greataxe. Greataxe being my primary.

so my issue is I have no idea what would be most effective for this character design for my 15th and 18th feats.. also I am allowed 1 flaw in exchange for a feat(improved initiative likely?), and no flaws either fit or sound too crippling, as in thats a weakness everyones gonna exploit just because it's a powerful build. So suggestions on a UA flaw would be appreciated also, and an explanation as to why it's a superior choice.

Suggestions on the entire build are encouranged, I am not against alterations. I will state tho that I HIGHLY dislike divine metamagic cheese, nightstick craziness and whatnot and fully believe my DM would throw a holy fit over that anyhow.

Note that this character is NOT the tank, but a supporting tank/damage dealer mainly. As the only one with healing capabilities, I am not against building him towards that and it will be expected of me(battle cleric conundrum), but I do want to play towards his strengths rather than spread him thin.

Avoid campaign books(eberon, faerun, ect)

For backstory, the basic concept is that in my DM's world minotaurs can be a slave race since im playing one. And my master was a devotee to Heirenious, which when my minotaur showed interest, he took up studies and one day healed his master accidentally while the guy was near dying from an assassin, showing that he took up the favor of his god and so forth and so forth,... i'll worry more about the backstory later as I have plenty of time,.. but suggestions here are also welcome.

As a side note, I am very interested in a build that uses Defensive Sweep instead of spring attack(or both? they dont synegize well tho), as my 18th level feat, I can do it with 4 cleric/5 OC/9 levels of Divine prestige with medium base attack. I havent found anything that fit the bill and still gives full spellcasting. (stormlord too hard to qualify for with OC)
Defensive sweep would be killer with his reach, and it would free up the spring attack chain of feats for some other stuff.

[Gwendol]

I think that right now you are wandering in several directions at once, and risk not being particularly good at anything. My suggestion is to dump the dodge line of feats completely, reduce your dex somewhat (it's cool to have a lot of AoO's but you wont get that many in practice, trust me on this one) and put those numbers elsewhere (CHA/WIS to pump up turn undead and spells), take cleave instead (with your strength + cleric buffs you are likely to drop enemies now and then), and focus on battlefield control combining debuffing spells and your superior reach.

Feats like stand still, robilar's gambit, and defensive sweep are all good. Use a guisarm. Since you have natural weapons you always threaten the space next to you anyway.
Or, being a minotaur and all, you could go imp bull rush, knock-back, and shock trooper.

Whatever you do, don't stick with what you've got.

As for flaw, take shaky: you will not engage in ranged combat with a weapon (you will use spells for that), since your spiritual weapon is already a lot better for you than any bow and arrow anyway.

[Silentone98]

so your suggesting burn a feat for the proficiency in guisarm? is this optimal when I can just go longspear, or is it for the tripping?

I originally didn't think I qualified for shaky as a melee character,.. but your right that it affects my ray spells(if any), so I may be able to justify that. Good suggestion there. But otherwise he expects any flaws taken to be something that actually affects a character

Due to my reach, anyone closing in on me, I should get an AOO just because of my reach and I have a large coverage area, unless he uses reach capable mobs against me. Im gonna take your word for it tho,.. my concept on that was very situational, and I should instead be overwhelming my enemies, not giving them a chance before im up in there face.

As for the 3 bullrushing feats there... damn, that is gonna be nasty... I will definately go that route and I thank you for pointing it out.(pump even only 1 point of atk into damage and I still get a free bullrush each attack? SWEET!!)

finally, changing up my stats are limited,... those were rolls, so the best I could do is 13 in CHA if i switched it with DEX.(-2 CHA Racial) and Wisdom already got my best roll, max possible.

Anyhow, your suggestions are solid, and I like it.
Any suggestions on a medium base attack prestige so i'd be able to eventually get that defensive sweep? I wont be able to pull it off otherwise. But feats like robilars gambit and defensive sweep rely on number of AOO as well.

was there any advice on keeping touch of healing and/or craft wand(heal sticks)? I'll need SOMETHING for downtime healing to lay of my spells and this DM isn't known for giving proper rests.

EDIT: New feat outline(CRAP, i still get caught up on lvl 15 and 18 feats)
lvl 1-Martial Weapon: Guisarme
lvl 1-Power Attack
lvl 3-Touch of Healing
Domain Conversion- Improved Bullrush/Knockback
lvl 6-Craft Wand
lvl 9-Holy Warrior
lvl 12-Shock Trooper
lvl 15-
lvl 18-Defensive Sweep?(If second prestige has medium base attack)

[Gavinfoxx]

If you are burning a feat for Guisarme, you might as well go for Spiked Chain.

[Gwendol]

With the war domain you should be proficient with your deity weapon: nothing there you can work with? Or just bite the bullet and take a level of fighter. It's not the worst you can do.

[Gwendol]

Just buy a belt of healing and take cleave instead. Cast mass lesser vigor instead of in battle healing and use the belt in emergencies. Since you're not going DMM you'll have a truckload of spells daily anyway.

[Spuddles]

Combat expertise improved trip knockdown- anytime you do more than 10 damage, free trip attempt.

[Gavinfoxx]

Combat expertise improved trip knockdown- anytime you do more than 10 damage, free trip attempt.

So that is several feats!

EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Knockdown

[herrhauptmann]

I think Half-minotaur actually gives better stat adjustments than regular minotaur.
Your regular stat boosts are lower, but if you apply the template to a medium creature, you get a size boost. And the template then says to apply all the stat adjustments that come from a size boost. Which includes a boost to strength, con, and natural armor.

Apply it to a human, and you get to keep the human bonus feat.(or should)
You can also get freaky with Primordial or Quor-bred templates. I actually forget what primordial gives but it's common,
But quor-bred lets you ignore a lot of psionic abilities. And if SR=PR in your game, you'll get a respectable level of SR when someone tries to cast on you. If the DM is just throwing stock monsters at you (just higher CR than normal), it should help. If he's customizing all your enemies, it'll be less useful because he'll probably pick spells/abilities that ignore SR/PR.
The downside? You can't manifst psychic abilities or use them as items. Oh darn.

[Silentone98]

EDIT: Thanks guys, this is going LOADS faster than I was getting on my own. I feel silly having asked for help but I certainly don't regret it :)

these are all good suggestions... umm, the healing belt is a big IF.
I am not sure i want to ride my build on big IF's...
we like to play it sort of realistically as far as picking up new items and stuff,.. who is gonna have a healing belt for sale really? even if you find a magic shop(which we should) there would be the issue of, what does he have in stock, and thats largely dependant on the DM. And he has already established himself in the terms of, "I am gonna be an ******* and teach you how hard a campaign can be"(due to some other players complaining about some easy stuff being 'too hard' in a different campaign)... usually his mouth is bigger than the reality of the matter tho, so who knows.

I could always pick up craft wonderous items, thats always useful >.>

The half-minotaur idea, its a thought, but I don't think im willing to dump down some of what I'd be lossing.
As for the psionic stuff... it'll be psionics is different, otherwise the reverse would have been true also. Basically whatever I choose to defend myself against he is leaving ten more things to worry about, so your running issues either way. He'll just pick different mobs. I am working with the other players to see how we can cover all, or most areas.

if you take a large spiked chain(for example) he'd always do 'minimal' of 9 damage, baring enchantments, so the improved bullrush knockback PLUS improved trip/knockdown... ?? you combine that with OC's channeling == serious ouch, and they are left trying to recover from what just happened or continue to get screwed. And prob get screwed anyhow as my whole team falls on them... now,.. would combining these two feat builds be ideal if I get enough feats for it? or do they contradict eachother in some way? Free actions as I understand can be taken as many times per round as you feel like so long as its not a spell.
I have done a spiked chain build as a psionic monk and do remember it was nasty for my enemies.

I don't particularly have any faith in cleave... late game its useless no matter how strong I am. Early game it would rock tho.

I'll rebuild that feat list again and see how it all falls in.... might be tomorrow tho, keep the suggestions going, im still looking for the second prestige with medium attack and full spellcasting if its out there :( so that I can take defensive sweep still

[Gavinfoxx]

if you take a large spiked chain(for example)

Uh, you don't want to use Large Weapons unless you have Powerful Build... I don't believe Minotaurs get Powerful Build. Otherwise, you need some bracers from Magic Item Compendium to lower the penalty to 0.


Never take the Monkey Grip feat.

If you want extra damage, get Power Attack and go down the Shock Trooper line.

Remember, if you have 22 strength, even if your weapon attack is 1d1, as long as you are wielding a weapon 2 handed, you deal a minimum of 10 damage. That's 6+3+1 = 10.

[Silentone98]

as a large creature, why would I need that?

24 strength, with large two handed weapon(spiked chain for example) = 12 damage at the lowest. 13 using 1 point of power attack to make use of the free bullrush attack feat(Knockback) which then qualifies for the free trip attempt from Knockdown,... assuming I fit both in.

[Gavinfoxx]

as a large creature, why would I need that?

Ah, right, forgot Minotaurs were large. my bad.

[Silentone98]

Ah, right, forgot Minotaurs were large. my bad.

part of why i wanted to make use of AOO's originally... with a reach weapon, thats 15ft threaten squares... and with defensive sweep, if I remember correctly, they are effectively end up with an AOO rather they move or not.

EDIT: and thats before Righteous Might bumping me up a size, or an enlarge potion....

[Urpriest]

He also, for all his campaigns, ignores racial levels fully, you simply pretend they arnt there and take everything else thats not from racial levels.


That isn't actually a meaningful distinction. What is or isn't predicated on "racial levels" is dependent on how the monster is parceled out into a class. For example, if you use Savage Species' take on the Minotaur, without racial levels the Minotaur only has +2 Str, +2 Dex, -4 Int, -2 Cha.

I get that what you're doing is just removing the RHD without changing anything else, but I wanted to give you a bit of an idea about how arbitrary/prone to problems that is. Suppose someone decided to play a Gloura (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e). They also have LA +2, with in their case seven racial hit dice. So in your campaign, one of them could start with 8th level bard casting at level 1, potentially dramatically more powerful than everyone else. Casting isn't dependent on racial hit dice, so removing the racial hit dice still leaves the casting intact.

[Silentone98]

im not sure what your saying... in his campaign that race would start as a level 1 bard with none of those racials... and the savage species breakdown is thrown out the window practically.

It's an overpowered campaign, doing it his way... but I am not sure what you were trying to point out that I didnt already know? Suggesting a different race since the system he is using is so prone to abuse?

EDIT: Here, I had it written down: may be missing something.
STR+8, CON+4, INT-4, CHA-2
Powerful Charge: Charge Gore attack
Large Size: -1 AC, -1 Atk, -4 Hide, +4 Grapple, Carrying Limits doubled
Gore Attack(1d8)
Darkvision 60ft
Natural Armor +5
Scent
Natural Cunning: Immune to maze, never lost, can use tracking, never flat footed.
+4 Search, Spot, Listen checks
Greataxe Proficiency

Re-EDIT: ahh... nevermind, I see what your saying... casting may not be based on racial HD but in that case it would be, at least in my DM's mind... In that particular case I am possitive that he'd rule it as you have 'access" to the spells, but cant cast them till you get the slots thru class levels

[Silentone98]

On a side note.... for Ordain Champions Channeling,... this works with 'prepared spells' meaning if I prepare an empowered harm spell, would that be superior to any 8th level spell I could cast? I am assuming in most cases, a disabling effect of some kind would be more effective?

EDIT: nm,... antimagic field...

[Urpriest]

Re-EDIT: ahh... nevermind, I see what your saying... casting may not be based on racial HD but in that case it would be, at least in my DM's mind... In that particular case I am possitive that he'd rule it as you have 'access" to the spells, but cant cast them till you get the slots thru class levels

So why does casting work that way, and stat boosts/every other racial ability work the other way? That's what I'm asking. It seems pretty arbitrary.

[Silentone98]

So why does casting work that way, and stat boosts/every other racial ability work the other way? That's what I'm asking. It seems pretty arbitrary.

your guess is as good as mine? if you look at it tho, usually those kinda spellcasting races have an equal number of racial HD as they do spellcaster level, even if by RAW it isnt written as being limited to such.

but the spellcasting Stats are still given, just like the physical stats, to add spell caster levels ontop of that is even MORE rediculous than what he is already doing,... im just taking advantage of what I can since he is already creating craziness and I am not gonna argue against it.

If i wanted access to more spells despite what he's doing there, I would take something that has spell like abilities instead.... wierd I know, and not very smart on his part.... I am still new to D&D myself and much of what he does, doesnt make sense.(this is the first time he is doing something like this tho)... this may be due to that he has years of experience, 20 or so,.. yet never bothered to read the books through and through like I have and actually TRY to understand the reasoning why some rules are made the way they are.
LA's and racial levels are by far rediculous and completely messed up as far as im concerned and I agree with him on that, but he really only made it worse... oh well, i'll capitalize on that :)

EDIT: I remember a while back I brought up a satyr build and he refused it, saying satyrs are different in his world and I remember specifically him having an issue with the pipes.... I don't recall the exact reasoning, but he offered HIS version of a satyr, as they are in his world.. which he already had fully prepared and ready to go. I didn't like the race and refused it(but not because of the lack of pipes, he even refused the MM satyr after I suggested simply taking that part out.... its odd)

[Gwendol]

part of why i wanted to make use of AOO's originally... with a reach weapon, thats 15ft threaten squares... and with defensive sweep, if I remember correctly, they are effectively end up with an AOO rather they move or not.

EDIT: and thats before Righteous Might bumping me up a size, or an enlarge potion....

Note that minotaurs are monstrous and therefore X person spells don't work (such as enlarge person).

[herrhauptmann]

part of why i wanted to make use of AOO's originally... with a reach weapon, thats 15ft threaten squares... and with defensive sweep, if I remember correctly, they are effectively end up with an AOO rather they move or not.

EDIT: and thats before Righteous Might bumping me up a size, or an enlarge potion....

Large gets you 10feet reach normally. With reach weapons that gets you 20feet, not 15.

[Silentone98]

Large gets you 10feet reach normally. With reach weapons that gets you 20feet, not 15.

I thought reach weapons add 5ft to the total reach, not double. From both mine and our DM's understanding... hmm, D&D wiki says your right but I dont see the relevent text in the players handbook.. havent checked DMG yet.

thats what I get for taking a DM at his word...

Hey Grendol, does humanoid not count towards Enlarge Person? Book says it does. Its an Elan that runs up an issue with that(abberation)
Unless being monstrous somehow makes the humanoid part irrelevent, but I don't believe it does. And the enlarge person spells states humanoid, which a minotaur is.
Edit: NEVERMIND, I thought it was a subtype... damn, I am alittle annoyed at that, and yet its kinda a good thing too,.. no charm person, dominate person, ect.
My DM may houserule that anyhow,... he is very particular with how HE views it should be. So I gotta be ready to expect that to go either way.

[Gwendol]

Please do: In a monster campaign its perfectly reasonable for those spells to have monstrous counterparts.

[herrhauptmann]

I thought reach weapons add 5ft to the total reach, not double. From both mine and our DM's understanding... hmm, D&D wiki says your right but I dont see the relevent text in the players handbook.. havent checked DMG yet.

thats what I get for taking a DM at his word...

Hey Grendol, does humanoid not count towards Enlarge Person? Book says it does. Its an Elan that runs up an issue with that(abberation)
Unless being monstrous somehow makes the humanoid part irrelevent, but I don't believe it does. And the enlarge person spells states humanoid, which a minotaur is.
Edit: NEVERMIND, I thought it was a subtype... damn, I am alittle annoyed at that, and yet its kinda a good thing too,.. no charm person, dominate person, ect.
My DM may houserule that anyhow,... he is very particular with how HE views it should be. So I gotta be ready to expect that to go either way.

You'll have to check savage species or another book dedicated to monsters for reach rules. PHB is written more for medium/small size PCs.

For various monsters, having the same general body shape as a human (ignoring size differences) does not make you count as humanoid. Minotaurs are monstrous humanoids, and therefore I think, not subject to enlarge/reduce/charm/dominate person. Charm/dominate monster is still an issue. Being monstrous also gets you certain feats that less freakish people can't get. Again, savage species and monster manuals. Ghostwalk has a few too.
Elans are aberrations and don't get enlarge person. Fortunately many are actually psions, and can just use Psionic Expansion (which doesn't care about creature type). Doublecheck with your DM asap about those spells. If he hits you with those spells and you give him a "Lol, no!" you could end up suffering the wrath of an angry DM.

[Silentone98]

I fully intend to... I always show him my planned build, and address any issues I think I might run into that we hadnt covered before, each time we start a new campaign.
I showed him the minotaur- Cleric/OC build and he choked near to death(but readily accepted it) but that was before i got these wonderful feat advice from you guys,.. I am rather obligated to show him the changes when im done. Which is fine with him so long as he knows, anything goes until the first session the character is in use.

anyways,.. I take it no one has a 2nd prestige idea for this? one with at least medium attack and full spellcasting? else I might be forced into putting more into straight cleric if I want that Defensive Sweep...
If not,.. other ideas for a second prestige that would fit this build well are also welcome.
Feat layout will be ready in the morning or midday, thx for all the help guys! I am really appreciating this, just wish I had a better way to show it.

[Urpriest]

You'll have to check savage species or another book dedicated to monsters for reach rules. PHB is written more for medium/small size PCs.


Eh, not really. It's right there in the PHB: page 150, the end of the section on big and little creatures in combat that you need to read in order to use monsters with reach in the first place. Says right there that reach weapons double natural reach.

As for making other versions of spells, except for a few like Raise Dead (for which a higher level version for outsiders exists), the fact that typical spells don't work is generally supposed to be one of the perks of the creature type. It's worked in to the level adjustment.

[Silentone98]

I'll bring it up with him when I see him next, maybe, I dont want him to realize his mistake and take everything away now. The way I see it, is its a combination of being worked in the level adjustment AND the racial levels, but then the whole thing is, as you pointed out(because really, you can't build anything decent out of a monster with those racial levels, they are always forced down a certain path)
The problem is tho, using his system, with a caster level of 7 bard levels, take your first lvl of bard and you got the spells and slots of a 8th lvl bard at character level 1... does that appeal more than my minotaur build? hell yes, without a doubt, especially when you bring in those crazy bard builds you see floating around.

The entire issue becomes mute tho when you consider that yes I am playing a monster race, but I'll be the only monster race in the group(other being a celestrial Dwarf, and the other a plain human, using his +2 LA for an overpowered weapon instead, others might join before we start)... and I only get away with a minotaur because it's a slave race in his campaign. The race Gloura isn't playable unless it fits into normal everyday society. So, unless I wanna run bribes and debate for a few hours on why I'd have something like a Gloura, the issue becomes mute altogether.


OKAY, here's the feat list I am considering thanks to everyones excellent contributions:
New Stats:
STR: 22 +6 INT: 12 +1
DEX: 15 +2 WIS: 18 +4
CON: 20 +5 CHA: 11 +0
traded out strength and INT (16 and 14) and above are after racial bonus.
At lvl 4, I can put one stat into Intelligence to qualify for combat expertise
New feat outline
lvl 1-Exotic Weapon: Spiked Chain
lvl 1-Power Attack
lvl 3-Improved Bullrush
5th lvl-Domain Conversion- Combat Expertise/Knockback
lvl 6-Craft Wand
lvl 9-Knock-down
lvl 12-Shock Trooper
lvl 15-Holy Warrior
lvl 18-figure something out later

Now is Knock-down a feat I can actually choose? it doesnt say it in the pre-reqs, but the description states "A diety" twice over, once in the general description and once in the benefits description

[herrhauptmann]

Knock-down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown)
Prerequisites

Base attack bonus +2, Improved Trip, Str 15.
Benefit

Whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee, you make a trip attack as a free action against the same target.
Nothing in there says you need to be a god to use the feat. Nothing about divine rank or Salient Divine Abilities.

The only issue people have is that the feat was introduced in the book Deities and demigods.


What's 'Holy Warrior'? I'm not finding that in my feat compilation.

Why are you taking craft wand as a battle cleric? Unless it's impossible to buy wands and other magic items in cities, you really don't need to craft wands. Does the party have an artificer or similar who can do the crafting? Other classes do decent crafting as well, there's feats/prc they can take for improved costs, but those are mostly arcane classes/prcs in Faerun.

Have you looked at Leap Attack? It'll make your charging attacks much nicer. 2handed weapons get 2:1 PA, 2handed weapons with Leap Attack get 3:1 PA. I know you're not the main damage dealer, but if you're going as far as shocktrooper, it seems like a waste to not make better charges. (Combat brute's momentum swing gives you a second round of nice power attack after your charge, but you'll need Imp Sunder)


Other questions.
Your DM wants to take the kid gloves off, but might burst a blood vessel if you start using metamagics?
Have you looked at what spells you're going to use the most? ex: If you're going to start every fight with divine power or righteous might, it might be simpler to just have a second character sheet where you've already got all the changes for DP/RM listed.

[Mishkov]

Maybe this is just to prove a point about how silly the ignoring racial HD is, but...you realize this opens up completely insane lycan options, right? Were-bear for free? Were-battletitan? Were-giant squid? You can have way more stats and a better starting package than Minotaur if you'd like...

[Silentone98]

every fight starting with Divine power? that highly depends on if its nessessary. He is known for level appropriate monsters, but dragging us thru a dungeon without a proper rest all the dang time. I don't wanna burn out, which is why these lockdown type feats are REALLY appealing to me. They were really good suggestions and I may be able to conserve very well because of it.

And for simply stopping in a shop and buying stuff,.. not really
If there is a shop, and IF they have that... but thats assuming every shop is just gonna happen to have everything your looking for, and craft wands has other uses, such as giving them to my allies for them to use. Backup spells if I DO run out,.. that kinda thing. Playing with him in the past, I know I might be screwing myself just by not taking craft arms and armor/wonderous items... unless he throws in an NPC he controls that has those.
Minor stuff are uncommon and anything more is RARE.
low cost potions are about as far as you'll get for guarentees on whats available at any given time.
You know, as far as that, I like that he plays it that way... no one should be able to just assume they'd be able to just pick up whatever they want, whenever they want.

Thanks for the input on Knock-down... I know it was in that 3.0 book as well,.. it should be fine, so i'll see when he looks my character over next.

Holy Warrior is a reserve feat in the Complete Champion
http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-champion--57/holy-warrior--1405/
it's just gravy really.

Umm, I have leap attack on a glaive fighter build I have for a different campaign... the character hasnt seen much action yet and I havent had a chance to actually use it >.>... This character however doesnt intend to pick up jump skill so it's out of the question anyhow.

The problem with the divine meta magic thing is, we both have issues with that,.. I dont like it, and he dont like it. I find it kinda silly the amount of people pushing for nightsticks and I would rather not bother. And then the builds that dont use nightsticks would force me out of what im trying to build here. Now I know that because I am looking to conserve my spells, divine magic works to that effect,... but really?,.. I'd be a fool to think he wouldnt just dispel me every chance he had if I try to pull that.(he isn't a very fair DM, and doesn't always consider; that just because HE knows something, doesnt mean the monsters know it)
in a way, it works out since I dislike those builds anyhow.

As for a second character sheet,... the character IS kinda confussing, and I fully intend to have a whole list of every option I can think of outside the norm.

[Silentone98]

Maybe this is just to prove a point about how silly the ignoring racial HD is, but...you realize this opens up completely insane lycan options, right? Were-bear for free? Were-battletitan? Were-giant squid? You can have way more stats and a better starting package than Minotaur if you'd like...

I am well aware... I had thought about it several times during this discussion.
Problem being he already put the "No f'in way" out there when i brought it up because of another player ALWAYS playing rogue lycans in his games in the past. I am surprised I am allowed fur at all really, lol.

Your actually trying to prove a point to the wrong person tho... im just a player in his game. I agree with him that the current system with LA's and racial levels is by far flawed and completely useless. I disagree with his solution, but I am silently going along with it for the sake of abusing what I think I can before he catches on.... he does run with the mentallity of, after the characters in play, if he already accepted it, then its his fault and you get to keep it, period.

[Spuddles]

What level are you starting at, again?
Knockdown is pretty much the coolest feat ever.

I played a half minotaur goliath once. For +2 LA, I had huge sized weapons, reach, and like +16 to str and +8 to con. Definitely look up the half minotaur template in DR 313. Then look up the size boosts you get going from medium to large. If you don't mind the mental penalties, you can also apply half ogre to your large sized creature FOR FREE, due to what is likely a copypaste error from the CR to the LA text.

Also note that RAW, when you hit someone for over 10 damage, then get a trip attempt, you get ANOTHER attack from improved trip against your prone opponent. Successful knockdown attacks also qualify you for cleave attacks, regardless of whether you kill your opponent. Check out the cleave text.


So why does casting work that way, and stat boosts/every other racial ability work the other way? That's what I'm asking. It seems pretty arbitrary.

It's hardly arbitrary. Stat boosts are nowhere near as powerful as say, ethergaunt without racial HD.

[Silentone98]

Starting at level 1... so i'll have 13 HP, with a powerful charge of 4d6+9(with the current build)

so basically,.. anything I fight early on is dead round one if I go first... maybe I should have left room for improved initiative?

Cleave:
"If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it) ,you get an immediate..."

bolded part will catch him up,.. he did this to me on knowledge checks once.

knowledge checks are a free action, yet because the book says "Typically they are free actions" he took it to mean in battle, its a standard action >.>
I took it to mean that if you were studying a wall of ancient powerful magics, then you'd have to take longer due to the non-standard use of the skill. But there was no argue'ing with him and the only reason we got it to a move action instead was because others voiced their opinions against it to.

It's a good angle to go by tho... and I do have a missing feat to decide on... I'll have to brooch the issue on that and see what he says, just to be sure.

EDIT: Conviently, he just stopped by long enough to pick someone up. Was able to squeeze the question in.... since the person being put down is caused by a trip attempt and not by damage, it doesnt work(even if damage is a pre-req for trigger of that trip attempt) But he didn't put an official ruling on it and stated he'd think on it,.. "since your build is freaking beastly enough...." LOL, I get the feeling im damned close to pushing him over the edge on this.

[herrhauptmann]

Silent,
What Spuddles was talking about was the usage of Knockdown and trip, trip and cleave.

Normally you trip someone, then hit them for free.
Knockdown you hit someone, then trip them as a free attempt. (reversed order)
Spuddles wants to hit someone, then trip them using imp trip, then hit them again when they're on the ground.


Some people do want to use trip+cleave for extra attacks, but their logic seems pretty shaky to me, since they just focus on the "damage to make it drop"


For an example of multiple sheets for one person.
A while back I had an AC focused dwarf. He had his dwarven defender defensive stance, but he also deepwarden 2 for con to ac. But, defensive stance boosted his con, for a futher boost to ac.
And since I also some custom boots of haste, I'd get extra attacks (and AC). And then my armor, my AC changed based off of how much I moved in a turn.
Finally I had the feat slashing fury (bad choice there).
Ended up splitting my sheets based on whether I was in my stance or not (stats were just too different). Then put my different attack routines, hasted, hasted with slashing fury, slashing fury without haste, and normal.
And of course my different AC depending on movement and haste.

[Silentone98]

well, regardless... DM has spoken, at least in part... I doubt he'll allow cleave to work that way. Honestly, if it was me.. I'd also say no also. I realize he was talking about using the cleave in conjunction with knockdown, but I don't think it works that way... the person is dropped because of your free trip attempt,.. not because of the damage you did to earn that trip attempt.
And I believe cleave wasn't written that way to include trips anyhow, I believe it was written in that way to include regular damage death, massive damage instant kill, enchantments on weapons that take a person down before the damage does, and other effects so your chance doesn't get wasted due to those.


Besides, great cleave, I trip you,.. i then hit you as a freebie and cleave the next person, whom because he took damage, also gets tripped and a free hit against him, CLEAVE, ect... where does the extra hits even stop?! the second I miss one? That could protentially be unlimited >.>
He brought up great cleave and how it really messes things up if we played it like this,..
MASSIVE WHIRLWIND OF DEATH! (more like world wide hurricane...)

[herrhauptmann]

Besides, great cleave, I trip you,.. i then hit you as a freebie and cleave the next person, whom because he took damage, also gets tripped and a free hit against him, CLEAVE, ect... where does the extra hits even stop?! the second I miss one? That could protentially be unlimited >.>
He brought up great cleave and how it really messes things up if we played it like this,..
MASSIVE WHIRLWIND OF DEATH! (more like world wide hurricane...)
If only you got a 5ft step as part of each cleave. You'd have the fastest way through a crowded city possible.(without magic)
Charge a commoner, kill him, 5ft step, cleave another commoner, 5ft step, etc
Like the commoner railgun, but bloodier. Take a few luck feats like 'never outnumbered,' once you kill the first, it's safe to assume the others will be considered hostile enemies. Oh, and 'better lucky than good,' to deal with the inevitable fumble.

[Silentone98]

:smallbiggrin:

honestly,... with the kinda rules he is running,.. why not?! lol
But again, I really doubt he'd go for it,.. and i'd lose my alignment :smallannoyed:

[Spuddles]

Spuddles wants to hit someone, then trip them using imp trip, then hit them again when they're on the ground.

No, the first is from knockdown, which comes from doing 10 or more damage. The second attack is generated after you successfully trip, as per the rules for improved trip.

It looks like this:
Attack?
If it hits, roll damage.
Over 10 Damage?
Free trip attempt. (Knockdown)
Successful trip attempt?
Make a free attack vs. your prone opponent. (Improved Trip)

There was 3.0 Sword & Fist Errata that fixed this extra attack generation in sword & fist, but the latest reprint of knockdown was in deities & demigods, sans errata.

[Silentone98]

okay... got to speak to him again.

Apparently knockdown is a 3.0 feat in both books it appears in,.. oops?
He say no on that knock-down one due to it being 3.0, but approved Knockback and shocktrooper(but I suspect only on the basis that it was 3.5 material)

he's getting alittle shaky with the build,... and not having knock-down and the prereqs just mean I have room for improved initiative and combat reflexs anyhow. >.>
Still, having the Knockback one instead is nice enough.... and improved trip might be worth it on its own.

On the issue of reach weapons,.. him and I were both surprised on that one but finially found where it was written and he is hesitant but says he wanted to roll with it as double the natural reach on this campaign as a tester, as its written. So i will get that after all... Cleave MIGHT be a viable option given my strength and reach,.. but im so hesitant due to the late game fallout. however, against large, weaker numbers, i would be glad to have it even then....

After consideration of a few things; I am gonna pass up on the half minotaur idea and use that in defence against if he accuses me of min-maxing or some****(which in this case, I am for once trying to come close at least) but he doesnt need to know that :smallcool:
It'll save me having to work in the "who got raped" backstory headache also...
Also, Robilar's Gambit,.. I hate that feat, my DM used it in one of his campaigns and after stating that my enemy 'assumed a strange stance leaving him open' or something like that, I immediately found its weakness, not attacking it in melee and switching to other options... the NPC was basically screwed BECAUSE his feat gives him away, it's too transparent. Now because of how its worded "at the start of your action, you can adopt...." you can't even move or anything on your turn either...

herrhauptmann, while leap attack doesn't quite appeal to me,.. you and the others are right that my original build wasn't a good idea, an active character 90% of the time will win out over a reactive character, spring attack just means I'll be losing attacks since no sane person will close in and take the AOO... I will look into more charge feats since I have to redo the feat setup again anyhow. If you have other suggestions along those lines, would be cool.

EDIT: With some further research, I noticed I should either replace Holy Warrior with Blade of Force, or use them both?(Holy warrior is always active tho,.. but Blade of Force will give ignore miss chance on incorporal... tough one, possibly blade of force loses its appeal when you consider, how often do I fight incorporal?)

[herrhauptmann]

A shame about Knockdown, it's on the SRD. Oh well. Might be better to not push further on it.
Vae school from Drow of the Underdark (pg 57) gives you a similar effect, but only 1/round on flatfooted or flanked enemies (Just gotta hit, no damage requirement). Requires imp trip, and weapon focus. So if you've got a god who has a spiked chain and the war domain, Vae school might be a good idea.

Just wanted to remind you, I suggested Leap Attack, where you jump at your opponent; not spring attack, where you run at him, hit, then run away. Spring attack is ok with your reach, but there's better choices.


Other options?
Knowledge devotion is a great feat IF you've got a couple skill points sunk into various knowledge skills. Making a knowledge check about your enemies gets you a +1 to +5 on attack and damage.
Requires 5 ranks in a knowledge skill. Or, you can swap out domains for the similar named devotion.
And the easiest way to get knowledge domain? Cloistered Cleric (srd/UA). It also gives you the skill points to actually use it effectively. But you'll need to find a way to boost your attacks as a cloistered cleric.
Powerful charge and greater powerful charge get you some extra d6's on your charges. Might not be needed.

As far as "Who raped who(m)" it's possible to skip both scenarios if you write the appropriate backstory. Check out the story written for my half-minotaur. Under "Other Notes." (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=252041) No mention of how/why momma got pregnant.

Vexing and Adaptable flanker from PHB2. Bonus to attacking while flanking. And makes it easier to flank a specific enemy. (If adjacent, your current squares, and 1 other count as being occupied for determining if he's flanked. So you can flank an enemy even if he's literally standing in a corner.)

Finally, it's time to start suggesting items.
A no-holds-barred game sounds like the DM's gonna wreck your items. Get blueshine/everbright/durable weapons and armor (MIC and dungeonscape). Now your weapons won't get destroyed just from being near a rust monster or certain oozes.
A smoking weapon, I think, is useful for all shocktroopers. Grants you some miss chances at start and end of your movement. Great when you keep dropping your AC to 2 every charge. Unfortunately, you'll need 4 for full coverage. Main weapon. Armor spikes. Spiked gauntlets. And something else. Maybe a blade in your shoe (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__DATQSa1Sxw/TS-w4tjoRBI/AAAAAAAAABM/79kZ4rqZNqc/s1600/howdoesitwork.jpg) It's also a 3.0 item. Lords of Darkness.
A valorous weapon for boost to your charging damage.
Soulfire armor (BoED). Permanent deathward.
Retribution armor (BoED). Punish people for hitting you. Once they figure it out, don't be surprised if they go hit other people. Fortunately your reach keeps them nice and close.


Custom items (good luck on these)
Helmet or mask of synesthete (psi power). Lets you ignore blindness or deafness.
Souldrinker Weapon. Standard souldrinker is a greataxe. For 38k, it can be anything. Don't do if you don't have soulfire armor, or the DM likes to dispel your armor.
Custom haste boots. Infinite use of haste (5 rounds at a time) is about 27k.

edit:
Last item.
Hanks Energy Bow. So long as you didn't take shaky, you're suddenly useful as an archer, without resorting to spiritual weapon for ranged combat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Knockdown, in addition to being in 3.0 books, is in the 3.5 srd.

[Silentone98]

Knockdown, in addition to being in 3.0 books, is in the 3.5 srd.

I'll keep this in mind for the future, its a very nice feat.. but for the time being, Herrhaup is right- it's not a very good idea to push any further on that one. My DM is gonna be struggling with an issue of my character outshines the other players at this point, on everything I think... (even my unskilled spot/listen/search checks are a +8,.. wtf? lol unskilled jump/climb +7)

We don't have a straight up arcane or psionic user either,... The DM says he is gonna likely NPC an arcance user in our group because of it.

Herrhaup,... Cloister cleric has been a consideration for awhile now but I was holding out for defensive sweep... at this point since I can't work defensive sweep in, you just sold it to me.
so 4 Cloister cleric/5 Ordained Champion and from there, into Contemplative, im thinking.
As a bonus, I'll be covering bardic like lore but OC doesnt stack :(, and knowledge skills that we would otherwise be missing within the group. I don't like giving up the possibility of mithril fullplate, but the movement may be more important anyhow. I believe I'd still get away with a mithril breastplate tho :smallbiggrin:
Big question tho,... in my eariler post I pointed out we had issues regarding knowledge checks and you still make a knowledge check as normal... he made it a standard action originally even tho its suppose to be a free action. We only talked him down to a move action as a compromise,... he takes it as, you are trying to remember something in the heat of battle and you can't afford to be distracted. I see it as... Why the hell am I gonna forget your weak to adamantine, just because im fighting? I am fighting, I immediately look for weakness while fighting >.> He doesn't get that.
Lowers Knowledge Devotions usefullness.

Now something that gives me some kinda movement as a swift action, so I can be up in someones face, and use channeling as my regular move, then strike.... thats more powerful than a regular charge, if I have an enemy close enough... what do you think of that? Granted its not in the spirit of conserving my spells, but its potent.

vexing/Adaptable flanker?? Correct me if I am wrong,.. but those two feats effectively give me a total of +6 to my attack rolls at ALL TIMES since my reach lets me reach right over people(almost,, I can think of certain issues still), .... and all teamies get +2
WTF? lol, okay... I have to go with this,... More hits >>> more damage and to hit is what I am missing on this build if I am conserving spells.
This is perfect.

Hey, that was a good call on the rust monster,... he has mentioned them several times before and has been exposed to them in other campaigns he played as a player. I was fully expecting them to make an appearance in this campaign.
I'll look into those.

Where is Hanks bow from? I seen it before but forgot... that auto adusts its composite bonus from STR to whatever my STR actually is, right? wicked....

(Was more,... damn post was too long so I cut things out that were too little importance,... still too long, sorry)

[herrhauptmann]

Forgot about the restriction on knowledge skills. I could understand a move to remember, and then explain it to the party (talking's a free action, but there should be limits).

Hank's energy bow is from the D&D cartoon in the 80s/90s. It's on the wizards website somewhere, it'll show up with a quick google. There's issues with the 'arrows of force bypassing DR, or not.' Get a ruling from the DM on that one. And yeah, auto adjust strength, more than just 1d8 damage, etc.

Remember, vexing/adaptable requires you to be adjacent to the target, not just have him in your reach. And you only get to select one target at a time, rather than all enemies in reach (how I first used with a human chain wielder). It's good too because as a cleric, you can summon monsters. Guaranteed flank buddy if you need it. Not sure if you get to give yourself flanking or not. If yes, great. If not, oh well.

There's a weapon enchantment in complete mage (or arcane) that gives proficiency with that weapon, AND gives cleric bab while using it. I usually recommend it for warhulks, but a cloistered cleric or wizard benefits too.

You can get strongarm bracers for larger weapon size. Huge in your case. But that's getting into overkill I think.

I might've missed it, but did you select a deity yet?

Oh yeah, there's also a trap in dungeonscape, it's a CR12. Oozes appear, and on their turn, they eat your weapons, your armor, pretty much anything made of metal or wood you're wearing. No save. Second encounter in a level 15 game we had that. Poor psion lost his retribution amulet, money, and his +9 cost armor. Me? I lost a shield and my gold pouch.

Before I forget, remember if you want to charge, you need 10ft of movement. With your 20ft reach, you'll need enemies 30 feet away to charge them. And afterwards, they can still charge you (though you'll get an AOO)


Extra actions?
Belt of battle.
I think there's some boots or gloves in MiC that can help with that too. Honestly, anytime I wanted more actions, I went swiftblade9.

[Silentone98]

Before I forget, remember if you want to charge, you need 10ft of movement. With your 20ft reach, you'll need enemies 30 feet away to charge them. And afterwards, they can still charge you (though you'll get an AOO)


idealy yes... I am gonna want to be charging in with the reach weapon to pull that off,.. nastier than a powerful charge if I can povoke them into an AOO.
I can always get them in the 15ft. spot also with a charge(not keeping them at max length)and get an AOO no matter what direction they go... question tho,.. if they are at the 20ft spot and move directly up to me, do I get 3 AOO's with combat reflex(and enough dex)? as moving for 20 ft to 15 provoke, 15 to 10 provokes, then 10 to 5 provokes....
or is it one AOO per target, regardless of number of provokes?

My diety is Heirenious for now... it'll likely change when he builds his pantheon... he doesnt want to use standard and let me know he'll have something to accomidate the build still.

for vexing adaptable flanker... the 10ft spot is still considered adjacent to me, correct? so to pull off what I was talking about, I'd just have to be in their face and it works for flanking.(assuming they are medium creatures)

[herrhauptmann]

You have to end your charge as soon as enemy is in reach. Meaning that the enemy will be at 20 feet away (3 squares of movement for him to get adjacent to you). I don't know any way around that restriction.
Your charge has to have 10ft of movement, but be less than a double move.
Your charge has to be in a straight line (minus certain feats and skill tricks)
You have to see your target at start of a charge (see above caveat)


You only get 1 AOO for a single action.
If he moves and provokes an AOO, he can then literally run circles around you without provoking a second AOO.
---If he makes a charge and provokes, and you decide not to attack with him at the end of your range, but rather have him come a square closer so you get flanking with an ally he charges past. Well, you can't do that (I think). He provoked for his first square of movement, the second/third/fourth/etc squares don't count as provoking AOOs.

Move, then cast while in reach? That's 2 AOOs.

Cast a standard spell, then a swift/quickened spell while in reach? That's 2 AOOs for two different actions.

[Silentone98]

thanks for clearing that up!

[Gwendol]

Have you looked at other PrC's besides OC?

I saw cloistered cleric mentioned, as well as contemplative.

Other classes to consider are: Prestige Paladin (one level dip for paladin spells)
church inquisitor (gain inquisition domain, or trade that for knowledge devotion)
divine oracle (gain evasion, in heavy armor)

[Silentone98]

Have you looked at other PrC's besides OC?

I saw cloistered cleric mentioned, as well as contemplative.

Other classes to consider are: Prestige Paladin (one level dip for paladin spells)
church inquisitor (gain inquisition domain, or trade that for knowledge devotion)
divine oracle (gain evasion, in heavy armor)

I am not class dipping and attempting to do so will lock me in until I finish the prestige anyhow. (his homebrew rule or something. Doesn't matter, I frown on dipping also)
He originally thought I was gonna do dipping when I brought up "I am taking two prestiges" and almost went on to remind me how he'd treat that before I told him that the first was only a 5 level prestige and I'd complete it.
I think he allows dipping base classes... thats still silly IMO >.> I'd maybe do it for fighter, but thats it.

Yes, the cloistered 5 cleric/5 Ordained Champion/10 contemplative is my current plan... Divine Oracle was a consideration but I decided I liked Contemplative better.
Church Inquisitor doesn't fit me, I can't roleplay that, nor do I find it particularly useful outside its pierce illusion and poccession immunity. Those can be lifesavers in their own right, but it doesnt appeal to me and then the real killer ontop of it is the alignment,... Imma be playing a Neutral Good. As a minotaur, I am gonna struggle with the concept of law, chaos, order,.. and being raised as a slave ontop that? He has alot to do before he can bring any sort of peace to his soul or establish any sort of order in his life.

as far as changing from Ordained Champion to something else? Maybe when you can tell me something more amusing that channeling a lvl 1 command spell in my melee hit, half killing my target. Then ordering them to fall to the ground(does this provoke even? idk). Now its my turn and they wasted a turn and made things easier for me to boot :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:
saves and resists aside, this will amuse me greatly. It's no wonder it's appears to have become popular within the 3.5 ruleset...
spells im gonna enjoy channeling at spell level 1: Command, Cause fear, Obscuring mist(only the target is covered in mist and having trouble see'ing, I think it's quite clear how that works?)
Level 2: Shatter, Hold person, Sound burst?
level 3 and higher: Any number of amusing effects. What happens if its a blade barrier? Becuase of the wording of channeling, does the blade wall stay centered on them and they get slashed to death by a thousand blade no matter what they do? Only one way to find out!

As I gain levels, my old spells retain some usefullness... I can't ignore that, the allure is too great.

As I want to play a battle cleric,.. I am gonna have to instead ask you what do you think is better than a Ordained Champion prestige for such a build? I have looked and havent found anything other than what I might like for a second prestige. It'll be funny as heck if you had something and I could build a backup character, not tell him and if he tries to kill this character off.. WHOOPS! something with even more headaches for him :smallamused:
I don't think he will tho... I just sent him my backstory earlier and he was vastly impressed and even thankful of the plothooks and story material it provided. I am no pro at story writing but I did what I could.

[Gwendol]

Warpriest, for example. There are a number of others, though those will not advance spellcasting as much.

Not sure it is strictly better than OC though.

[rockdeworld]

Off topic (since everyone here has the main topic covered pretty well): does your DM realize the implications of his decisions?
-You could play a Dragonborn Saint Warforged (any class) for free and be immune to most forms of damage.
-If you're starting at level 2, you could play a Tauric cheese monster.
-On the less cheesy end, you could play a Shadow Whisper Gnome Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler +2/Rogue +3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue +3, a.k.a. the melee Killer Gnome with a Shadow template.

And that's not even going into the RHD creatures.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is, maybe after this campaign is over, help him rethink his ideas. In the meantime, enjoy your supercharger.

[Silentone98]

Off topic (since everyone here has the main topic covered pretty well): does your DM realize the implications of his decisions?
-You could play a Dragonborn Saint Warforged (any class) for free and be immune to most forms of damage.
-If you're starting at level 2, you could play a Tauric cheese monster.
-On the less cheesy end, you could play a Shadow Whisper Gnome Swashbuckler 1/Rogue 1/Swashbuckler +2/Rogue +3/Blade Bravo 10/Rogue +3, a.k.a. the melee Killer Gnome with a Shadow template.

And that's not even going into the RHD creatures.

Edit: What I'm trying to say is, maybe after this campaign is over, help him rethink his ideas. In the meantime, enjoy your supercharger.

it was covered eariler, but prob got swallowed,... alot of text in my posts. A few people, including myself have already commented on how his system is too easily abused.
But aside from that, basically a dragonborn saint warforged? I have to justify having a minotuar as it is,... LUCKILY they are a slave race in his game. The only suggestion I seen on races here that would work is a human half minotaur.
I havent looked into the shadow template for that gnome build tho,.. that one might get accepted in his campaign, too bad I don't play rogue often(I'll keep it in mind).
And no idea what a Tauric cheese monster is... im just gonna assume that one don't fit in normal society in his game.

In his mind, he is fixing a flawed system, at the same time providing us some extra power "so he can take off the kiddie gloves"... but his solution butchers an existing system instead of working with it. >.> oh well. My gain.
Ignore 6 levels of RHD, AND a LA+2? sure... i'd much rather hace those levels in a class than a racial HD :)
This is the most I felt comfortable attempting to get away with however. Push for too much and you lose it all... And the half-minotaur as is, was written poorly and is broken to begin with from my understanding. It makes minotaurs the ultimate cross-breeders because anything bred with it comes out stronger as a half-breed than the base minotaur... wtf?

As to more directly answer your question: No, I don't believe he does realize. I realize and yes, you are right, imma love having this character.
I do not believe I am gonna help him realize what it does to game balance.. I mean, if you were the only one in a group that understood what you could do with it(because your the only one that bothers reading the books and understanding them), would you tell him?

[Silentone98]

Warpriest, for example. There are a number of others, though those will not advance spellcasting as much.

Not sure it is strictly better than OC though.

Doesn't have to be better if combined... :)
Maybe like a cleric 5/OC 5/warpriest 10

its definately a thought... I want access to the 9th level spells tho :(
but that would also allow me to get enough base attack to grab defensive sweep... its tempting, yes....
at lvl 20 I am a lvl 14 caster tho... yuck
Its biggest allure is the BAB and haste as SLA...
I'll have to keep it in mind... I passed it up several times before due to the spell progression but it allows for some other craziness and is worth alittle more consideration, so I'll think on it.