3.5 party optimization

[Zoblefu]

Hello.

I've recently started playing in a game where one player controls an entire party of 4 through an endless dungeon. That is to say, it is extremely combat focused, with the occasional trap or puzzle, but almost no RP elements.

We have quite a few restrictions on our build options so I was wondering if you guys might have any hints or tips on how to make this party work well.

Here are things I think are important to the party, and why:
1) Doing decent reliable damage - kill them before we take damage back
2) Having every party member survive FROM LEVEL 1 on - there are harsh penalties if PCs die
3) Having an arcane caster - battlefield control, haste/buffs, damage
4) Having someone capable of healing but likely not their main focus. At minimum needs to be able to use wands of CLW and lesser vigor at early levels.
5) Having someone good at search, spot, and listen. Search being the most important, and preferably an elf -- just about every level on the dungeon will have at least one secret door and many times looting the area after combat will give extra rewards with a good search check.

Here are the build rules: Stats are 18/16/14/12/10/8. PHB races only. You may add +2 to any score and -2 to another score to adjust your build, but you cannot have any stat over 18 before racial adjustments.

Allowed classes are: PHB classes NOT INCLUDING DRUID plus Swashbuckler, Hexblade, Favored Soul, Shujenga, Warmage, Wu Jen, Scout, Ninja.

Allowed feat sources are: PHB, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Complete Arcane

Core classes can only cast core (PHB) spells. Other classes can use core or the book which they come from as appropriate. (For instance, a favored soul can get lesser vigor, but a cleric cannot)

--edited to add--
In addition:
1) No multiclassing or prestige classes. Pick a class and thats it.
2) Divine Metamagic is ok, but you must be capable of casting the spell level of the adjusted spell. So DMM empower and maximize may eventually be viable, but DMM quicken and persist aren't near as useful for a long long long time.
3) No polymorph spells of any kind
--end edit--

After much consideration, here is what I'm thinking...

Half-Orc Fighter
uses spiked chain for more flexible reach, grabs power attack, cleave, weapon focus, combat expertise, perhaps eventually mage slayer. Maybe get improved buckler defense to help AC later.

Melee Oriented Human Favored Soul
Party "healer" mostly due to the fact that he has decent # of castings of lesser vigor. With the need for high CHA, has low dex so thinking about taking heavy armor profiency and some melee feats -- but not really sure on good feats for this guy.

Elf archer Ranger
I couldn't decide between ranger or rogue or scout here. Ranger here gives a good ranged combat option for the group, as well as covers the spot, listen, and search checks. Likely uses a composite longbow and takes your standard ranged combat feats (PBS, Precise, Rapid, Weapon Focus, Manyshot, Improved Rapid Shot, etc)

Halfling Wizard
Halfling may sound like an odd one here, but having to play from level 1... a sling or thrown weapons can make it decent. Plus the extra AC and to hit from being small...
I haven't much decided on what to do with the wizard yet either, but he will have important knowledge skills, and take toughness and a toad familiar to try to survive early.
---

But anyway, I came here for your thoughts, not just to share mine. Have any other great ideas?

It's also possible this game might take on more players soon if this type of thing interests you.

[Eonir]

All of it sounds pretty good for what you are having to work with, however I foresee one issue. Without ACFs that you don't have access to, Ranger's do NOT have trapfinding, so he won't be much help there.

Also, I would go with a dwarf over the half-orc. A con bonus, stonecunning, and bullrush resistance is much better in this setting in my opinion.

[Gnaeus]

Can you take domains from other allowed sources or core only.

Can you use item crafting powers/feats?

[Zoblefu]

Only PHB domains for cleric sadly.

I have thought about going scout or rogue instead of ranger.... With ranger we would simply muscle through the traps instead of worrying about disarming...

No item crafting feats other than creating consumables (scrolls, potions, wands, maybe staffs)

The DM is trying to carefully monitor what loot is available.

[LTwerewolf]

Why Favored soul instead of cleric? In a couple levels you'll just be using wands anyhow and as a favored soul you have to be really choosy about which spells you take.

[Gnaeus]

I will suggest Cleric (melee focused), Cleric (backup melee/support), Rogue 1/Wizard, Wizard

At least 1 cleric should rebuke undead, this is a primary way to get extra guys. Maybe consider one of the domains that let you rebuke for more minions. The melee cleric should take Strength and probably War or Destruction Domains, and should probably be a dwarf. A melee cleric is close to equal to a fighter at level 1-2, and better at higher levels, and especially better for endurance (more heals until you get that wand of clw, and good will save means less running away).

Wizard needs Craft: Alchemy. Throwing fire at people is a valid backup weapon. The wizard will take craft wands at level 5. They will get scrolls for free, and potions are unnecessary. The support cleric can take staves. The first wizard (transmuter or conjurer) bans Abjuration and Evocation, the rogue/wiz (transmuter, conjurer, or illusionist) bans Enchantment and Necromancy. Both wizards take Toads, but both swap them for Imps or Quasits at the first opportunity. Keep your UMD maxed. Those familiars will be spamming wands with buffs or battlefield control, and their Communes will be good for locating secrets you missed. If he really, really really runs short on skill points, the rogue wizard could drop 2 more caster levels to enter Arcane Trickster (or 1 level of Assassin, then Arcane Trickster), but Rogue 1/Wizard X is likely stronger.

At low levels, you will be doing a lot of spamming of save or loses. Wizards cast sleep or color spray, backup cleric casts cause fear. Melee cleric attacks. If you hit level 3-4, all should be golden as real defense spells come on line, and when the wands come out at level 5 you have a real advantage. The wizards can benefit from scribing spells from each others spellbooks.

[Seharvepernfan]

You could do a wilderness rogue instead of a ranger. Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Listen, Spot, Survival, Sense Motive - all class skills. Scout is also a choice, but they don't get open lock. Ninja would work too, but holy hell do these forums hate the ninja.

[Morbis Meh]

Also since you can use complete divine for feat you can totally take Divine Metamagic for cheesy goodness on your clerics, also persistent spell for double the cheese from complete Arcane though this build doesn't kick in until level 7... but from an optimization standpoint you should scrap your entire party and go Gnaeus' suggestion

Edit: also have one of the wizards as a grey elf from the Monster manual, they get +2 Int/dex and -2 str/con they can also use bows which are far better than slings...

[SowZ]

Make the halfling Wizard a strongheart halfling and that is just fine. 18 Int, 18 Con, 16 Dex or even 18 Int, 18 Dex, 16 Con if you prefer should be just fine. Use slings as a back-up I suppose, just don't blow any feats on combat stuff. Improved Initiative and magic related feats are yummy.

Human Favored Soul is a decent choice.

There are better Melee alternatives to Fighter. Clerics are better at melee, actually. If you stick with Fighter, Orc is better than half-Orc in a dungeon crawl since you can start with 22 Str, (even Str modifier means TWO extra damage!) at the cost of -2 wisdom. -2 wisdom is more than worth +2 Str.

A Rogue is a better choice than a Ranger in a pure dungeon scenario. If I wanted to go archer rogue and Targeteer is not allowed, I'd go dual pistol crossbows. Quick draw, (assuming DM lets it sheathe weapons for free or tie the crossbows to your hands and drop them to dangle,) Hand Crossbow Focus, and Crossbow Sniper. But that is me, it isn't a must do but is personal preference. It is easier to make a good longbow build. :P But yeah, Rogue nice as a skillmonkey if nothing else. Feats from Champions of Ruin aren't allowed, right?

[Morbis Meh]

[QUOTE=SowZ;14195885]Make the halfling Wizard a strongheart halfling QUOTE]

I do believe that the strong heart halfling isn't a viable race since it is a Faerun race, heck my suggestion of a grey elf may not be valid due to the restraints (I didn't see any mention of MM but who knows!).

[Zoblefu]

Thanks for the feedback so far. It seems I forgot to mention yet more restrictions and I'll go back and edit the original post.

1) No multiclassing or prestige classes. Pick a class and thats it.
2) Divine Metamagic is ok, but you must be capable of casting the spell level of the adjusted spell. So DMM empower and maximize may eventually be viable, but DMM quicken and persist aren't near as useful for a long long long time.

As for the races, only straight out of the players handbook. So no full orc or grey elves.

I was thinking Favored Soul to get the vigor line of spells (since clerics can't use spells from complete divine) and more of them, but you may be right that using wands will become the most common form of healing. Or even a favored soul AND a cleric instead of the fighter... but I suppose I figured that without a persisted or quickened divine power that a cleric wouldn't be as good.

Also, crossbow sniper is in PHB2 which is not an allowed source for feats :)
And no, not Champions of Ruin either. It seems the DM knows what he's doing on stopping a lot of cheese.

[Eldariel]

I'm fairly certain you just want maximum number of spell slots per day. I'm not sure if you can afford more than one non-caster; I'd probably go Cleric/Favored Soul/Wizard/Rogue myself.

Reach weapon controller Cleric, warrior Favored Soul, initially ranged and later TWF Rogue and the obvious Wizard. Everybody should obviously be Human or Dwarf; well, you can make do with an Elf Rogue but she'll be hopelessly squishy early on. 18/18/14/12/8/8 seems like the go-to array. If a character other than the FS has higher than 8 Charisma, something is wrong.


Looking at this:
Dwarf Cleric at 18/10/14/14/18/4 (he's the heavy armor bruiser, picks Improved Trip by 6, prolly uses Longspear until EWP: Spiked Chain)
Human Wizard at 10/18/14/18/12/6
Human Favored Soul at 16/10/14/6/14/18 (another heavy armor bruiser, skills Concentration and Diplomacy)
Elf Rogue at 10/20/14/14/14/6 (eventually Finesse)

You really need the spell slots. Rogue would be Rogue/Wizard/Trickster if you could but alas. Cleric also covers more spells than Favored Soul and from a more varied list. Leave FS mostly as a battlefield controller/buffer/debuffer; his save DCs won't be anything to write home about. Most importantly he can bring some of the Complete Divine spells to the party, and he himself will be a decent frontliner; have him wield a weapon that's a legal target for Spikes.

Cleric will also pick up Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc. eventually (and FS can too). Sure, he won't be able to quicken them easily but with surprise rounds or just casting them before enemy charges in they're still worth it. And level 9 he can Quicken Divine Favor for +3/+3 which is real nice. Favored Soul on the other hand can pick up Divine Might.

A bit of a pity taking Combat Reflexes would cost you Improved Trip; I think ultimately Improved Trip is more important and Combat Reflexes can be acquired eventually if you have stat boost items available through crafting or loot (Wands are going to be huge btw).

Rogue is a problem but you need some class with Trapfinding or you're going to die. A lot. He'll be stuck on Use Magic Device/Thrown Weapon duty (with that Charisma) against things immune to Sneak Attack, but against things he can SA, he'll be fine at range early on and in the melee with TWF Finesse and Ring of Blinking later. Scout's a lot worse than Rogue especially single-classed and Favored Enemy is even more situational than Sneak Attack so yeah, Rogue it is. Getting him Wands of Gravestrike, Vinestrike and Golem Strike (and something to boost his Charisma-checks/UMD) should be a priority.


EDIT: How about alternative class features? E.g. Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) would be better than standard Rogue here. Oh, and you definitely want to make the Favored Soul a Shock Trooper.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd suggest all casters... Cleric, Favored Soul, Shujenga or Bard, Wizard. Get a lot of animals for low level HP tanking.

Can you heavily ACF the Ranger? Cause Rangers can get some fantastic ACF's!

Trapfinding, Wild Shape, Wizard casting, lots of great stuff.

Can you get Mystic rather than Favored Soul?

[Gnaeus]

Thanks for the feedback so far. It seems I forgot to mention yet more restrictions and I'll go back and edit the original post.

1) No multiclassing or prestige classes. Pick a class and thats it..

Yuck. Have you noticed that your DM is kind of controling? I would find this a bad sign at the start of a game.

Anyway, I will still suggest Cleric x2, Wizard x2. The support cleric should now take ranks in Search, and get a wand of find traps at L5.


2) Divine Metamagic is ok, but you must be capable of casting the spell level of the adjusted spell. So DMM empower and maximize may eventually be viable, but DMM quicken and persist aren't near as useful for a long long long time.

I was thinking Favored Soul to get the vigor line of spells (since clerics can't use spells from complete divine) and more of them, but you may be right that using wands will become the most common form of healing. Or even a favored soul AND a cleric instead of the fighter... but I suppose I figured that without a persisted or quickened divine power that a cleric wouldn't be as good.

Cleric v. Favored soul:
Favored Soul needs 2 casting stats. That makes them worse at pretty much everything. They can focus on just 1, but that has drawbacks.
Favored Soul gets 2 free (bad) feats. A war cleric gets one of these earlier than the FS. The other one doesn't come until level 12 when it is useless. Cleric gets Heavy armor, so if you were thinking of taking it as a feat cleric comes out better until level 12, even after that, and still has one domain left to play with.
Cleric gets turn undead. Even without DMM, this still has uses.
Domains have lots of nice spells and special abilities. Even Core only gives a number of very nice options.
Favored soul only really has more spells at level 1 and at even numbered levels. At odd numbered levels, cleric has more.
Favored Soul gets good Ref save. They also get flight at a level when they should have been able to fly anyway.Thats nice, but not worth it.

[Eldariel]

Cleric v. Favored soul.

Favored Soul can cast spells from Complete Divine tho. That alone makes it kinda worth having one. Lesser Vigor, Spikes, Recitation, Divine Agility, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, there's a lot of really nice-to-have unique spells in there.

[Gnaeus]

There are some good spells in there. But he is one of your primary casters, and FS gimps him at everything involving save DCs. This is the guy that should be casting Save or Sucks while the frontline cleric fights, and he is now really bad at that.

He is behind in feats (as a backup melee). He has many less options. The spells he gets he gets late. The only thing that would be remotely worth it for me is Resurgence.

Ultimately, there probably isn't too huge a difference, but I still think Cleric has the edge.

[Eldariel]

There are some good spells in there. But he is one of your primary casters, and FS gimps him at everything involving save DCs. This is the guy that should be casting Save or Sucks while the frontline cleric fights, and he is now really bad at that.

He is behind in feats (as a backup melee). He has many less options. The spells he gets he gets late. The only thing that would be remotely worth it for me is Resurgence.

I think you want both of these guys in the frontline. After all, endless dungeon by definition is about doing as much with as little resource expediture as possible (since resting always invokes random encounters and thus saps even more resources and bogs you down real fast if you have to do it repeatedly) and thus every time it's possible to do X without spending a spell, that should be done.

I think hour/level buffs should be the focus. Cleric can take AoOs while casting spells so he's golden far as being the primary divine caster while FS can take care of most of the long duration buffs and no-save debuffs thanks to his high number of spells/day. Between the Rogue, the FS and the Cleric there are 3 characters with very respectable melee output so buffs like Spikes, GMW, Magic Circle, Magic Vestment, etc. are going to multiply the party efficiency (Spikes is real nice btw; level 3, hour/level, +CL damage, Keen & +2 enhancement to any weapon with wooden strike surface - if you have 3 people using wooden weapons it'll be pretty amazing though I'm not sure if there are any wooden reach weapons with the tripping-property).


Make no mistake, the Favored Soul should be in the front just as much as the Cleric and perhaps even more so since his spells are worse suited for offensive casting. I'd say Favored Soul Zilla and Cleric is the way to go; Cleric using melee mostly out-of-turn while casting where casting is required and Favored Soul takes active attack actions.

It's simply a lot of perfectly good spells missed if you go double Cleric instead, though that certainly leaves you stronger straight-up. Also, having an FS has the advantage of giving you somebody with Charisma as the primary stat which should enable some success in the inevitable social encounters you'll run into.

It might actually be worth looking dumping Wis on the FS and just never preparing a spell that requires a saving throw. In a party with 2 other casters it's easy to split the spells so that the FS never needs to cast a spell offering saving throw without really losing out on anything-


I'm also fairly certain a Rogue is unfortunately needed. Most low CR traps can oneshot a party member early on, way before Wand of Find Traps becomes feasible. Not to mention, some traps can be instant game over if triggered (Gate trap is what, CR 10? And this level 6 party won't stand a chance against a Pit Fiend or something similar at that point), and the trap CR rules are kinda unfair far as detection and disarming goes so I think it's necessary to have one character devoted to the job complete with all the buffs you can find in terms of magic items and spells.

By the sound of this we're talking about a meatgrinder that abuses the **** out of the CR rules; much in the same vein as the original Tomb of Horrors. I wouldn't go in there without all my bases covered.

[Gnaeus]

I think you want both of these guys in the frontline. After all, endless dungeon by definition is about doing as much with as little resource expediture as possible (since resting always invokes random encounters and thus saps even more resources and bogs you down real fast if you have to do it repeatedly) and thus every time it's possible to do X without spending a spell, that should be done.

He says crafting is allowed, even if limited to wands. I hear nothing prohibiting normal casting tricks, like Rope Trick. Resting must be possible.


I think hour/level buffs should be the focus. Cleric can take AoOs while casting spells so he's golden far as being the primary divine caster while FS can take care of most of the long duration buffs and no-save debuffs thanks to his high number of spells/day. Between the Rogue, the FS and the Cleric there are 3 characters with very respectable melee output so buffs like Spikes, GMW, Magic Circle, Magic Vestment, etc. are going to multiply the party efficiency (Spikes is real nice btw; level 3, hour/level, +CL damage, Keen & +2 enhancement to any weapon with wooden strike surface - if you have 3 people using wooden weapons it'll be pretty amazing though I'm not sure if there are any wooden reach weapons with the tripping-property).

Make no mistake, the Favored Soul should be in the front just as much as the Cleric and perhaps even more so since his spells are worse suited for offensive casting. I'd say Favored Soul Zilla and Cleric is the way to go; Cleric using melee mostly out-of-turn while casting where casting is required and Favored Soul takes active attack actions..

Disagree. You don't want your primary caster in the front. You have already lost one extra action/turn by losing the 2nd wizard (and therefore his familiar) for a rogue. By level 6 (when Spikes becomes available), you want undead or other controlable enemies in the front ASAP. That means you want turning pools.


It's simply a lot of perfectly good spells missed if you go double Cleric instead, though that certainly leaves you stronger straight-up. Also, having an FS has the advantage of giving you somebody with Charisma as the primary stat which should enable some success in the inevitable social encounters you'll run into.
.

He says there will be minimal RP, so probably not an issue. If it is an issue, then whichever cleric has the turning duty will also have a decent Cha.


I'm also fairly certain a Rogue is unfortunately needed. Most low CR traps can oneshot a party member early on, way before Wand of Find Traps becomes feasible. Not to mention, some traps can be instant game over if triggered (Gate trap is what, CR 10? And this level 6 party won't stand a chance against a Pit Fiend or something similar at that point), and the trap CR rules are kinda unfair far as detection and disarming goes so I think it's necessary to have one character devoted to the job complete with all the buffs you can find in terms of magic items and spells.
.

You may be right here, but if so I think it favors 2 clerics over cleric & FS further. If you have 2 wizards casting fight ending spells, you might get away with FS. But with only 1, the 2nd full caster will want to be casting effects with saving throws, and will want to be varying his spell load for probable enemies.

[Zoblefu]

ACF from unearthed arcana (the ones on d20srd) are in. If there are any ACF in the books I said were approved for feats they are likely in as well, but I don't think they have any.

I really like the idea of the cleric, FvS, Rogue, Wizard. Dwarf, 2 humans and an elf (rogue).

If you don't mind helping me out with filling in some of the feats?

Favored Soul you mentioned Shock Trooper. Requiring a BAB of 6, this wouldn't get there until level 9. As a human favored soul what kinds of feats do you think would be best to fill in? We have 2 extra feats, and we can take them both at 1 if we wanted -- leaving 3 and 6 for the prerequisite feats.

The cleric you mentioned being a control type, grabbing 14 int out of the point buy at the expense of only 10 dex, to get a reach weapon and improved trip. With no charisma to speak of, he doesn't even get any turn undead uses right?
With improved trip by 6, this leaves one other feat to take care of before. Improved buckler defense? Toughness? EWP Spiked Chain?

The elven rogue... you mention starting out ranged and moving to weapon finesse later. Weapon Finesse has to wait for level 3... TWF could be taken at level 1 easy enough I suppose, and the penalty is negated if he can stay flanking with one of the two others -- he is a risk of dying early like this though, so I'm not sure... With only 10 strength he's only going to be decent in combat when he can get off a sneak attack, and that seems too hard to do at range... he could certainly start off with ranged but I worry about lack of precise shot.

And the human wizard. With these sources I'm not really sure what to do here either. I'm much more used to building with almost all sources... The toad familiar and perhaps toughness feat may let him survive early... but what feats are really useful here? The dungeons are set up to have probably 10 fights between each rest so resources are meant to be stretched. So, the wizard needs to be decent at doing something other than casting spells to start... I guess it's all on the light crossbow with 18 dex?

[Kaustic]

I don't know about the Rogue though. Honestly, I like the Scout a lot better. Better HP to soak up a failed trap or if they somehow get into melee. Plus they get some better abilities than what a Rogue can pick up.

Since you can't Multiclass you can't do the really nice Scout/Ranger Skirmish/Favored Enemy combo, so that is a down side.

If ACF's were allowed(not sure if they are or aren't yet) the Wildshape Ranger ACF for a frontliner would solve the problem of throwing the FS up there. Either way though, the FS does have d8's for HP.

Another question: Can the Cleric still use Wands off the other books? Such as later on finding a wand of Lesesr Vigor. Will the Cleric be allowed to use the wand as it being Divine?

If not, then I would like to think that the Rogue would be better than the Scout in the situation. UMD is nice. Will you have the time available after presumably clearing a floor to craft? That may make the FS a bit more useful if you can get them churning out wands of Lesser Vigor.

[Zoblefu]

If I can find/buy the materials to craft, and have food (and water but create water fixes water need) to survive the duration of the craft, I can craft consumables.

Yes clerics can use wands of spells from complete divine.

ACFs allowed if they're on d20srd (Unearthed Arcana ones I believe)

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you specifically ask for the Ranger Trapfinding ACF from Dungeonscape?

This will give you access to more trapfinder options, so you aren't obligated to have a Rogue or Scout or Ninja.

Can you specifically request access to the Kobold domain for Cleric (maybe renaming it the Traps domain or something), for access to trapfinding for a Cleric and Cloistered Cleric?

How about the barbarian trapfinding from Dungeonscape?

Can you get access to Spellthief? Factotum? Psychic Rogue?

The feat Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment), from Planar Handbook, for the Kobold domain?

Also, I strongly suggest a Cloistered Cleric be in the party, for free Identifies.

[Gnaeus]

Toad is good because you will dump it when it becomes useless. Unless Rope trick is banned or nerfed, Wizard wants Sudden Extend at level 3 to break up those 10 encounters. Definately craft wands at 5. Toughness as a feat is terrible. Take Domain Wizard. You get extra spells like a specialist and give up a big load of nothing. I'll suggest Conjuration Domain as having all good spells.

If you have a favored soul, the other cleric should not be your primary combatant. He should have domains that give useful spells or abilities like travel or luck, and he should rebuke undead. Skeletons and zombies should be your friend. I second Gavin's endorsement of cloistered cleric.

[Gavinfoxx]

Lets see...

Cloistered Cleric w/casty domains
Cleric w/fighty domains
(Trapfinding?) Wild Shape Ranger
Wizard

[Randomguy]

Looking at this:
Dwarf Cleric at 18/10/14/14/18/4 (he's the heavy armor bruiser, picks Improved Trip by 6, prolly uses Longspear until EWP: Spiked Chain)
Human Wizard at 10/18/14/18/12/6
Human Favored Soul at 16/10/14/6/14/18 (another heavy armor bruiser, skills Concentration and Diplomacy)
Elf Rogue at 10/20/14/14/14/6 (eventually Finesse)


Why not make the favored soul a tripper? He can get tripping and combat reflexes by level 3, since he's a Human.

I think you should consider swapping the favoured soul for an Ubercharger of some sort: You lose out on some healing, but you bring a lot more damage to the group. If you choose a fighter, then he'd be able to both charge and trip. If you choose a Paladin then you get a free mount and some extra healing and casting later on.

It might be a better idea to buff up the favoured soul or cleric a lot and take countermeasures against dispelling, though.

Consider taking the wizard ACF that swaps a familiar for a druid animal companion. It's great at low levels, plus you don't lose xp if it dies. Also, be a conjurer and use god-wizard tactics. If you do decide to include a barbarian, then Whirlding Frenzy is a must have and Wolf totem for tripping is also a good idea.

[Zoblefu]

I have asked about all those ACFs already and the answer was no to all of them.

The options for traps are only rogue or scout or ninja.

You do not HAVE to have a way to disable traps, although it will help you survive and provide bonus XP. You must disarm or find and avoid traps to get the xp for the trap CR.

And approximately 15% of the loot will be only accessible to either someone who can disable something, open something locked, or find a secret door.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well... sounds like you HAVE to have a Rogue or Scout, then...

That kinda sucks.

So.

Cloistered Cleric
Rogue (maybe acf'ed... fighter feat rogue maybe?? go for a strength / tripper type...)
Wizard
Cleric

maybe?

Can you start with purchased animals? Trained mules (fightin' mules!), fighting dogs, etc.?

[Randomguy]

I have asked about all those ACFs already and the answer was no to all of them.

The options for traps are only rogue or scout or ninja.

You do not HAVE to have a way to disable traps, although it will help you survive and provide bonus XP. You must disarm or find and avoid traps to get the xp for the trap CR.

And approximately 15% of the loot will be only accessible to either someone who can disable something, open something locked, or find a secret door.

It looks like you will need a rogue for most of this, but remember that a greataxe can at times double as a lockpick.

[Zoblefu]

We roll randomly for starting gold, something like 4d4 * 10gp. So, some cheap animals maybe.

I thought about the fighter-feat rogue.

As for the identifies, the DM has house ruled that you can identify items for 100gp (note: not a pearl, which may be harder to find) each by casting detect magic (Cast detect magic once, pay 100gp per item)... so same gold cost but lower spell cost.

Why does a cloistered cleric get free identify? What would a cloistered cleric end up doing to help combat especially at low levels when they can't just cast spells?

[Eldariel]

ACF from unearthed arcana (the ones on d20srd) are in. If there are any ACF in the books I said were approved for feats they are likely in as well, but I don't think they have any.

I'd say Wilderness Rogue is the way to go. Rest I'd go default outside Domain Wizard if that's game. It's really good, of course.


I really like the idea of the cleric, FvS, Rogue, Wizard. Probably 3 humans and an elf (rogue).

I'd prefer Dwarf Cleric just for the extra Con. Turning seems kinda not worth the trouble without DMM; Divine Spell Power maybe but eh, spells that's really good on come much later and since he needs to be melee anyways, something's gotta give and I think the only place that can is Charisma.


If you don't mind helping me out with filling in some of the feats?

Favored Soul you mentioned Shock Trooper. Requiring a BAB of 6, this wouldn't get there until level 9. As a human favored soul what kinds of feats do you think would be best to fill in? We have 2 extra feats, and we can take them both at 1 if we wanted -- leaving 3 and 6 for the prerequisite feats.

Well, he might need Extend Spell since he'll be a buffbot later on. Cleave is fairly obvious for a Shock Trooper and Leap Attack too. Indeed, he could pick up Leap Attack on level 6 (though that would mean he'll lose out on skillpoints in Diplomacy; eh, worth it tho) and Shock Trooper on level 9.


The cleric you mentioned being a control type, grabbing 14 int out of the point buy at the expense of only 10 dex, to get a reach weapon and improved trip. With no charisma to speak of, he doesn't even get any turn undead uses right?
With improved trip by 6, this leaves one other feat to take care of before. Improved buckler defense? Toughness? EWP Spiked Chain?

You should be fine without Toughness on low levels with two characters capable of casting an array of healing spells before you get the items to do it for you. Likewise, IBD is a waste. EWP: Spiked Chain seems like a solid choice. Extend Spell is fine too. If you retool into a higher Charisma setup you could use Divine Spell Power but that seems difficult at the present.


The elven rogue... you mention starting out ranged and moving to weapon finesse later. Weapon Finesse has to wait for level 3... TWF could be taken at level 1 easy enough I suppose, and the penalty is negated if he can stay flanking with one of the two others -- he is a risk of dying early like this though, so I'm not sure... With only 10 strength he's only going to be decent in combat when he can get off a sneak attack, and that seems too hard to do at range... he could certainly start off with ranged but I worry about lack of precise shot.

Eh, early on he should have high enough Initiative to go first a decent amount of time for flat-footed sneak attacks. Also he can use thrown weapons to attack touch AC instead (Alchemist's Fire is a good one).

TWF early, Weapon Finesse on 3; neither will do anything before then but he'll be decently off at that point. He'll also have a decent AC, amazing Reflex and decent Fort & Will thanks to his stat spread. Later on he can really hit for a lot while Favored Soul charges and flanks and Cleric moves, casts and flanks.

Cleric can probably afford to wade into the middle of the enemy to provide flank with his reach especially once you get Combat Reflexes-level Dex for him via. items.

Quick Reconnoiter might be an interesting feat to take for the Rogue as that provides a lot more Spot- and Listen-checks for when it counts. Improved Initiative is also a decent one. Most importantly though, I'd pick up Tactile Trapsmith at the earliest convenient opportunity since that should increase your chances of succeeding in disarming traps tremendously (all your level-ups go to Dex anyways). Indeed, I'd probably pick it level 1 instead of TWF; Weapon Finesse level 3, TWF level 6 and ITWF level 9.


And the human wizard. With these sources I'm not really sure what to do here either. I'm much more used to building with almost all sources... The toad familiar and perhaps toughness feat may let him survive early... but what feats are really useful here? The dungeons are set up to have probably 10 fights between each rest so resources are meant to be stretched. So, the wizard needs to be decent at doing something other than casting spells to start... I guess it's all on the light crossbow with 18 dex?

Toad familiar is mostly a waste of time; I'd go Raven or something. Toad will just fall off real hard. Familiars deliver touch spells and stuff after all, and get your skill ranks. Toughness too; party positioning, your base HP, your healing, control spells and plain smart play should be enough to get you up until level 3 where you can probably afford to cast Mage Armor at some point. Light Crossbow with 18 Dex is indeed fairly decent. Alchemist's Fires are again a go-to ranged weapon later on; effective 2d6 fire damage with a touch attack.

You prolly want Extend Spell and Quicken Spell at some points. Then you want Spell Penetrations (both; Assay Resistance & True Casting are missing so this is crucial) and you definitely want Improved Familiar when you qualify for it. Extraordinary Concentration, Extraordinary Spell Aim, etc. are late progression feats. He can also carry Crafts for you though I think Favored Soul is better for this. Split Ray, Chain Spell (for Dispel Magic especially against magic items, and for Enervation later on), there's also Sanctum Spell though that might be a bit too much here.

If Domain Wizard is available, go with that. Otherwise, you probably want to specialize for the early game spell slots. With these sources Transmutation with the Spell Versatility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spellVersatility)-variant could be good. Illusionist with Chains of Disbelief (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#chainsofDisbelief) is also pretty strong.

You don't want to give up Enchantment for low level play probably (Daze is a level 0 combat-relevant spell that'll really help early on) which leaves you with Evocation, Abjuration and Necromancy as the primary options (note, Spell Versatility really alleviates some of those losses; particularly Abjuration is fairly easy to give up with two divine casters in the party and you being able to pick up Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic and Mind Blank anyways).


I don't know about the Rogue though. Honestly, I like the Scout a lot better. Better HP to soak up a failed trap or if they somehow get into melee. Plus they get some better abilities than what a Rogue can pick up.

Since you can't Multiclass you can't do the really nice Scout/Ranger Skirmish/Favored Enemy combo, so that is a down side.

Rogue is better. Vinestrike, Golem Strike and Gravestrike allow Sneak Attack vs. Undead, Constructs and Plants. No such thing exists for Scout. Also, Sneak Attack is much easier to apply on a full attack (Ring of Blinking will work against a good number of foes and mundane hide with Wilderness Rogue's Hide in Plain Sight, provided applicable, will also solve a lot and then there's just Greater Invisibility) while with these sources, it's near impossible with Skirmish. And Sneak Attack scales much harder.

Also, Skill Mastery is a godlike ability that they don't get and Rogue skill list is better. And Rogues get Use Magic Device while Scouts don't (even at -2 Cha it's workable). And I'm guessing Wildshape Ranger won't be game since Polymorph-effects are universally banned.


Why not make the favored soul a tripper? He can get tripping and combat reflexes by level 3, since he's a Human.

I think you should consider swapping the favoured soul for an Ubercharger of some sort: You lose out on some healing, but you bring a lot more damage to the group. If you choose a fighter, then he'd be able to both charge and trip. If you choose a Paladin then you get a free mount and some extra healing and casting later on.

Favored Soul has a worse case of MAD than Cleric; the 14 Int is just really hard to swing. And why get a Paladin or Fighter for a charger when you're already pressed for spellslots and a Favored Soul/Cleric can do almost as well?

Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are both available to him and he can also cast buffs which will likely increase his overall damage above and beyond that of the Pally/Fighter. Not to mention he helps early survivability, midgame durability and overall is a party force multiplier.

[Zoblefu]

Thanks Eldariel!

I really like the tactile trapsmith at level 1, I hadn't even thought of that feat.

I don't think diplomacy will be needed very much, so jump can work - making leap attack a good option.

Your other observations have been great as well. I'm feeling much better going into this now!

So I started to make the level 1 sheet for the cleric... we can pick any 2 (DMG) domains we want, as well as any favored weapon of any deity available to us... I was going to pick war/travel, but unfortunately none available have spiked chain as a favored weapon.

It's not a huge deal as I was taking the EWP anyway.... but it means a wasted weapon focus in something else. Maybe carry around a bludgeoning weapon for skeletons with WF or something...

[Eldariel]

The call between Cleric and Favored Soul roles isn't clear cut, of course. While you definitely want that to be a frontliner, Favored Soul has access to CDiv spells but Cleric has access to Turn Undead which can fuel Divine Spell Power for much higher caster level buffs (Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Spikes, Spell Resistance, Dispel Magic, etc. all scale by caster level).


It would be viable to make a Human Favored Soul (though this loses out on some stuff) with 10-8 Wisdom and enough Int to go the Combat Reflexes-route, stack the Cleric up with Turn Undead to use Divine Spell Power on the spells that scale by Caster Level (Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment, Dispel Magic, Shield of Faith-types, Spell Resistance; unfortunately Cleric can't cast Spikes in this), etc.

This however means that the Cleric is both, buffing and doing the divine combat casting (since his save DCs are Wisdom-derived) which might tax his spell slots fast. Also, this means Cleric doesn't qualify for Improved Trip and he doesn't have Jump in class so this cuts out the option of having a charger before level 15 (since the Favored Soul would have to go Controller).

Ultimately, I think you're better off with Cleric Tripper and Favored Soul Charger skipping on Turn Undead but it's worth considering emphasizing Divine Spell Power (the only truly amazing Divine feat left with this pool). Also, working out Cleric Domains is of course an interesting exercise; Travel-domain has the best granted power, Trickery has some of the better spells while Luck has another really useful granted power.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why does a cloistered cleric get free identify?

Because the pearls are specifically called out as arcane material component, rather than material component. So the Cloistered Cleric just spends an hour casting Identify with their holy symbol.

If only you could do something like these for the favored souls, *sigh*...

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=370832
http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=427641

[Eldariel]

Because the pearls are specifically called out as arcane material component, rather than material component. So the Cloistered Cleric just spends an hour casting Identify with their holy symbol.

Magic Domain likewise gives access to divine Identify, though as a level 2 spell.

[Zoblefu]

I understand that the divine identify doesn't cost the component, but I don't see why a cloistered cleric would get the divine identify?

The spells I see for knowledge domain are detect secret doors, detect thoughts, etc..

edit: nevermind, found it... missed the extra spells a cloistered cleric got access to.

[Gavinfoxx]

I understand that the divine identify doesn't cost the component, but I don't see why a cloistered cleric would get the divine identify?

The spells I see for knowledge domain are detect secret doors, detect thoughts, etc..

Reread this:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric