Combat focus? [3.5]

[ojayaba]

was any one actually found a good use/viable build using the combat focus feats from PHBII?
I've looked into them and been curious about them but they just seem like a tree that i should stay away from.

Thoughts would be great here.

[Draz74]

was any one actually found a good use/viable build using the combat focus feats from PHBII?
I've looked into them and been curious about them but they just seem like a tree that i should stay away from.

Thoughts would be great here.

Some of them aren't terrible. If your melee build isn't feat-starved and can take three out of four of (Combat Focus, Combat Awareness, Combat Stability, Combat Vigor), it's not a poor combo. It does several moderately useful things for your build.

The main problem really is just the opportunity cost, i.e. the caveat "if you're melee build isn't feat-starved." Which pretty much means "never," especially since Tome of Battle came along and offered melee builds a somewhat stronger suite of abilities to cherry-pick via feats.

I've sadly never seen any particularly clever use of the Combat Focus feat line that adds some additional synergy to their use beyond the obvious. I'd love to see if anyone comes up with anything, though.

[eggs]

I really like the feats, and am continually bothered by how poorly they perform on Rangers (or rather, how poorly Rangers who've dedicated all their feats to minor passive benefits perform).

The only build I've had that used them well was a Psychic Warrior grappler, who used Combat Stability to boost its opposition to Grapple-escape attempts, Combat Focus to patch for mediocre Will saves (from good wis, bad progression) and Combat Vigor because the extra HP never hurt.

[ericgrau]

Combat defense is good. Rarely do more than 2 foes hit you. Keep track of the one with higher initiative so you dodge the first guy first. No matter how little you think of AC, 2 points are worth at least a 11% miss chance on someone who dumped AC, and on melee who probably already have some AC it's more like 20-40%.
Combat stability is ok. Depends how often you get grappled, but it's downright amazing if that's a common problem. One more +4 and you almost don't need freedom of movement.
Combat strike is mediocre because it's a 1 off and it negates all your other feats. Either you use it right away just to hit par and lose all your other feats for the whole fight or you use it at the end when it doesn't matter as much and the feat itself is well below par.
Combat vigor is mediocre because fast healing happens at the beginning of your turn; you don't get it on the round it's activated. By the time you get a significant number of hp it's no longer that critical to winning or losing the fight. Especially at high levels the % hp healed gets worse and worse.
Combat awareness is very handy for high level play when poor visibility is common. The BAB 12 requirement is almost an extra bonus to prevent poor player choices. Check out the invisibility rules and pump your listen modifier to locate concealed foes. Usually it's a flat DC 20 + distance penalty once fighting begins, though before a foe takes action it's quite a bit harder. You might also pump your movement speed to sweep for foes that way.

Cheesier methods overwhelm a lot of these feats though. There are ways to pump just about all of the above abilities up to high heaven. So the feats are good, better than most things in PHB1, but there are better options. Depends on optimization level and what's allowed.

[ojayaba]

dont suppose you have any interesting builds for a 16 level fun fighter do you using these feats?

[navar100]

A couple of campaigns ago I suggested to the fighter player to use the feats. He was very happy with them. Bonus to will save came in handy, a lot. Resisted being grappled, tripped, and bull rushed, a lot.

One being "feat starved" is not an excuse to say they're terrible. The feats are under no obligation to be the absolutely most bestest of everything for everyone all the time every time. They work well together. It's a particular tactic, and that's all they need to be. If because of bonus feats Fighters are the only ones who can really get good use out of them, I call that a feature not a bug. If other warrior classes can good use out of them as well, hooray.

[ojayaba]

I'm not really one who would know how to start or where to go with optimizing a build in the least... Part of why I started coming here to the playground.

[ThiagoMartell]

I had a player with those feats once and she was quite powerful defensively.

[ojayaba]

I had a player with those feats once and she was quite powerful defensively.

anythoughts as to what might be a decent build idea?

[ericgrau]

It could combine well with a lot of builds. You probably want a lot of fighter levels for the feats. You may want human for the feat or a high strength race for tripping and avoiding grapples (see below). Half-orc in the PHB, but outside the PHB there are many many better options like orc. Or lizardfolk combines well with combat defense thanks to the natural armor and it has other good melee stats.

Feat order: dodge, combat focus, combat defense, combat stability, blind fight, combat awareness

Combat defense combines well with combat expertise which then leads into a tripper which then leads into combat reflexes. Carry potions of enlarge person to help your trip checks which also boost your grapple modifier to help combat stability. A barbarian dip for rage strength and listen as a class skill likewise helps. Get a high listen modifier to work with combat awareness. Or better yet take the earth sense feat (races of stone) to give you the direction of any creature on the ground within 20 feet. You don't know the precise location but your blindsight will take care of that as soon as you get within 5 feet.

Depending on your level of optimization you might also want to get the fighter tree feats. That is if you don't go with the higher optimization damage options often mentioned around here.

[eggs]

dont suppose you have any interesting builds for a 16 level fun fighter do you using these feats?
Does it have to be a fighter?

Because beside tossing it onto a combo like the Dungeoncrasher+Shock Trooper+Combat Brute+Robilar's Gambit mix and treating it as an incidental bonus to a stronger class setup, it's going to be hard to do. The feats don't carry a lot of weight on their own.

If it doesn't have to be fighter, the build I got decent use out of the feats, leveled up to the level 16 range would have looked something like:
Half-Giant Psychic Warrior 15 (with LA buyoff, just shy of Psychic Warrior 16)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Hidden Talent (Expanded Psionic Handbook), Improved Grapple, Scorpion's Grasp (Sandstorm), Linked Power (Complete Psionic), Psionic Meditation (EPH), Snap Kick (Tome of Battle), Combat Focus, Combat Stability, Combat Vigor, Expanded Knowledge, Superior Unarmed Strike
Most Important powers: Expansion, Grip of Iron, Dimension Hop (via HT), Hustle, Metamorphosis (via EK)
Most Important Gear: Replacement Tail graft from serpent kingdoms, Necklace of Natural Attacks (Savage species, with Torc of Power Preservation enhancement added, if possible; the most recent ToPP is in Magic Item Compendium).

[ThiagoMartell]

anythoughts as to what might be a decent build idea?

Her build was yuan-ti Fighter, using a variant from Dragon (I don't remember which, it have scaling bonuses with a weapon). She then went into Incandescent Champion. She used a spinning sword (from Secrets of Sarlona) with Knowledge Devotion (from Complete Champion; yuan-ti get all Knowledge skills as class skills). She has a few levels in Incandescent Champion. She did some debuffing with fear effects, dealt decent damage and was the most resilient member in the party. She did some BFC with the attacks of opportunity from her spinning sword. Don't think it was a very optimized build, but it worked in out table, specially because most fights were against humanoids.

[ojayaba]

well, my group is very low OP. no ToB, psionics or races with LA greater then +1(+2 if you have awesome idea/fluff). i was thinking a heavy armor dwarf would be kinda fun with those feats using a dwarven war axe.

[Techwarrior]

Well, you said level 16 right? Straight Fighter here's what I'd do. Don't let them lie to you, the feats are very nice.

1- Combat Reflexes
F1- Combat Focus (PHB2) (1st Combat Form feat)
F2- Combat Expertise
3- Dodge
F4- Mobility
6- Elusive Target (Complete Warrior)
F6- Combat Defenses (PHB2) (2nd Combat Form Feat)
F8- Improved Unarmed Strike
F10- Defensive Throw (Complete Warrior)
12- Combat Stability (PHB2) (3rd Combat Form Feat)
F12- Combat Vigor (PHB2)
F14- Spring Attack
15- Power Attack
F16- Cleave

You will need the following stats:
13+ Str
13+ Dex
13+ Int
13+ Wis

If Human, shift Dodge to your Human feat, Mobility up to F2, Spring Attack to F4, and at level 14 take Bounding Assault as your Fighter feat. Otherwise, I'd go with a Lesser Tiefling Dragonborn, with Wings. +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Cha, Dragonborn racial bonuses. You get to ignore the weird outsider/humanoid thing Lesser Tiefling get.

As far as equipment, pick up a Heavy Flail and Tripping bonuses.
Interesting tricks you have:
Combat Defenses lets you switch your Dodge target when its not your turn. Abuse that.
Imagine your flanked... On your turn, pick the guy who has their turn next after you as the Dodge target.
You gain +2 AC against them, ignore their bonus Power Attack damage, and their first attack against you misses completely. This triggers Defensive Throw. Trip them, take your extra attack from Improved Trip, using whatever Power Attack you declared.
Now, the other guy makes his attack, Immediate Action allows you to switch your Dodge targets to him. Repeat the above paragraph.
Your first attack in the combat (which can be triggered by a AoO, which can be made while flat footed) gives you Fast Healing 4, +4 Will saves, and +8 to resist those fancy combat maneuvers for longer than most combats last. Have fun healing up after combats.
Trip stuff, lots of stuff.
On your turn (yes, the above was on other people's turns.), Move up to your speed. (Flying if Dragonborn) Make a trip attempt followed by Heavy Flail to the face with havy Power Attack. Spring Attack (Bounding Assault), or Full Attack are other options. Pick a candidate for Dodge that is immediately after you in Initiative, the more you can get out of your Combat Defenses feat the better.


Interestingly enough, 6 levels of Monk is MORE optimal in this build than straight Fighter. You lose an average of 6 hp but gain enough feats you would have needed to break get ahead and gain all the 6th level Monk features. (Evasion, +3 base Reflex and Will, +2 skills/level, +20 movement speed) On this, I'd definitely go Lesser Tiefling Dragonborn (LA 0)

1- Combat Form (1st)
M1- Dodge (Cobra Strike Variant SRD)
B- Improved Unarmed Strike
M2- Mobility (Cobra Strike)
3- Combat Reflexes
6- Combat Stability (2nd)
M6- Spring Attack (Cobra Strike)
F1- Combat Expertise
F2- Elusive Target
9- Combat Defenses (3rd)
F4- Improved Trip
12- Combat Vigor
F6- Defensive Throw
F8- Power Attack
15- Cleave
F10- Bounding Assault (PHB2)

Same stuff as before, except now you run faster, are unarmored, have better saves/skills, have Evasion, and gain another +1 AC to the target of your Dodge feat. You also get Bounding Assault and Dragonborn Wings.

You have great defenses, and do most of your stuff on other people's turns. Assuming 32 point buy, I'd take these stats...

Str- 16 (+4 level up makes 20)
Dex- 14
Con- 16 (14, before racial)
Wis- 14
Int- 14 (12, before racial)
Cha- 6 (dump this. Hard. Your a dark knight. Play It off as the strong silent guy)