Ramifications of "Mystic"-ing the Paladin+Ranger

[Mcdt2]

Having long ruminated over the sad state that the Paladin and the Ranger are in in 3.5, I have been looking for ways to give them a bit of a power boost. My latest idea is simple: make their spellcasting not suck. My attempts at this goal, today, will consist of changing thier spell progression to that of the Mystic Ranger (Dragon #336, IIRC.)

Aside from the obvious, what sort of effect would this have on my game if I ran it in in Core? Core + Completes? Or even had it open to all of 3.5 and Pathfinder material? The first few problems I could see would probably be from SotAO and the like, another might include shenanigans to get 9th levels spells on this full BAB chassis. What are your thought/concerns on this idea, Playground? Are there any alterations you would make to this proposal?

[kardar233]

A Mystic Paladin would be really awesome. I would totally play at least one, Paladin being my favourite base class and Mystic doing a lot for its usefulness, especially with Battle Blessing.

What would you lose for a Mystic Paladin though? I'd trade Lay on Hands for sure, and I might be convinced to trade Turn Undead as well.

[Lateral]

The Mystic Ranger's spell progression is stupid- it gets Wizard progression, at the same rate, but it caps at 5th level spells. This is a great idea, but don't use the mystic ranger's progression- use the Bard's progression, or something.

[Mcdt2]

A Mystic Paladin would be really awesome. I would totally play at least one, Paladin being my favourite base class and Mystic doing a lot for its usefulness, especially with Battle Blessing.

What would you lose for a Mystic Paladin though? I'd trade Lay on Hands for sure, and I might be convinced to trade Turn Undead as well.

Ahh, looks like I was unclear (I do that). I meant that they would recieve the Mystic progression, but not trade anything for it (this being said a Mystic Palasdin that did trade features for it could be cool as well). While this would mean they could almost keep up with clerics/druids and still have full BAB, I think it might be balanced out by the lack of versatility in the Pal/Rgr Lists.

[Coidzor]

The Mystic Ranger's spell progression is stupid- it gets Wizard progression, at the same rate, but it caps at 5th level spells. This is a great idea, but don't use the mystic ranger's progression- use the Bard's progression, or something.

I thought it was sorcerer progression, being 1 level behind wizard progression. :smallconfused:


A Mystic Paladin would be really awesome. I would totally play at least one, Paladin being my favourite base class and Mystic doing a lot for its usefulness, especially with Battle Blessing.

What would you lose for a Mystic Paladin though? I'd trade Lay on Hands for sure, and I might be convinced to trade Turn Undead as well.

Don't lose anything, seriously, just stagger it more like a bard than weird sorcerer-lite progression.

[gallagher]

I give them duskblade progression with druid spells added to ranger, and cleric spells added to paladin.

ta da, now if you want to play a holy warrior, you play a pally instead of a cleric. and now rangers can do some work with their spells

for the record, i also give spellthieves a the bard spells and progression for a boost

[Coidzor]

The first few problems I could see would probably be from SotAO and the like, another might include shenanigans to get 9th levels spells on this full BAB chassis. What are your thought/concerns on this idea, Playground? Are there any alterations you would make to this proposal?

Basically the only issues I can think of are the ones you mentioned from Sword of the Arcane Order and maybe Battle Blessing, though, really, some method of swift-action casting is going to be essential given their archetype as fighting thingy with spells and the nature of buffing. Maybe something to let them do x number of spells swift per day or something along those lines.

From what I recall, the only way for them to get 9th level spells on their full BAB chassis would involve going into Epic levels or the same shenanigans as allow Fighters to cast 9th level spells, so I wouldn't really weigh that as a serious concern unless there was some other method you were thinking of?

[Spuddles]

I give them duskblade progression with druid spells added to ranger, and cleric spells added to paladin.

ta da, now if you want to play a holy warrior, you play a pally instead of a cleric. and now rangers can do some work with their spells

for the record, i also give spellthieves a the bard spells and progression for a boost

Duskblade progression is a good fix, if not a little heavy on spells/day, given that prepared casting is generally better than spontaneous (if spontaneous is limited on spells known). I'm not sure about giving them access to all cleric/druid spells though. That's really good.

[Coidzor]

As far as spell lists, I've always been fond of the idea of expanding the spell lists but not quite to the extent of piling on all of their related fullcasters' lists on there and giving them spells known and spontaneous casting in the same vein as beguilers/warmages/dread necromancers

[gallagher]

Duskblade progression is a good fix, if not a little heavy on spells/day, given that prepared casting is generally better than spontaneous (if spontaneous is limited on spells known). I'm not sure about giving them access to all cleric/druid spells though. That's really good.

oh i just do it for 5th level spells, seeing as their list only goes up to 4 normally

[nedz]

The Mystic Ranger spell progression is unique.
They have the additional problem of having no high level spells. There are only six level 5 spells, with no SpC support.
PrC support is also lacking, but this is true for Rangers generally. There are a couple of elfy ones, the Swanmay plus a few exalted ones also.

With Paladin it should be easier - just use one of the many Templar type PrCs: there are several in CDiv.

[silverwolfer]

you get this

http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/rams-might--1782/

[toapat]

this is where an interesting flaw in how 3.5 is written actually is kinda broken:

The Term (<Class> Spells) has no actual defined meaning (as far as i know), which renders SotAO and Battle Blessing useless, except, this oversight does not actually render either feat nonfunctional.

with SotAO, you prepare spells from a spellbook, to be cast as class divine spells. Now, assuming it was worded correctly, this is how SotAO should be worded:

You may prepare spells from the Wizard's spell list in spell slots granted by your levels of ranger and paladin. You must have an int of 10+spell level in order to prepare the spells, and these spells use intelligence for their DCs. These spells are prepared from a spellbook, whether your own or borrowed.

Your levels of Wizard, Ranger, and Paladin stack for determining your caster level.

With Battle blessing, it simply accelerates the spells whose conditions it meets, regardless of whether or not they are spells which appear on the paladin list. here the only change needed is clarification asto what it means by Paladin spells.

[Coidzor]

Intellect, eh? :smallconfused:

I believe you mean Intelligence if we're going to be going by strict game terms.

[toapat]

Intellect, eh? :smallconfused:

I believe you mean Intelligence if we're going to be going by strict game terms.

derp. i was using the idea in grammatical sense but not the terminology sense.

But yes, basically, the 2 most powerful Paladin feats rely on terminology that has no actual definition within the game. Typically we just use this as an assumption (Spells on the Wizard Spell list, and an eternal argument as spawned from SotAO), but if we are keeping terminology straight and non-overlapping, then "Spells cast from slots granted by a given class", we get a bit of an exploit where paladins get better casting for their spell levels then wizard.