Copy a scroll in the book for multi-list characters

[etrpgb]

Imagine Andrew the Archivist and Carl the Chameleon. They have a spellbook, Andrew has the spellbook for his divine spells, and Carl has his spellbook for his arcane spells.
Both of them can access from all the spells of the category. And adventuring they find two scrolls: a divine Heal and an arcane Haste, the scrolls come out from random treasure table.

They want to copy them in the book, and here is the question: are they authorized to copy at any level that any list support?

For example, it is expected and correct that:
Andrew copies Heal as a 5th level spell as an Adept spell.
Carl copies Haste as a 1th level spell as a Trapsmith spell.

What are RAW? What are RAI? What do YOU think?

Thanks!

[herrhauptmann]

Heal is heal.
Haste is haste.

They copy the spell into their book at the appropriate level for that class.

The spell level c hanges for certain classes, but that's all. All effects are still the same once you take into account the lower/higher caster levels.

Your trapsmith can make a 1CL scroll of haste, and a wizard can then copy it into his 3rd level spells. Or he can cast it from the scroll at a caster level of 1. A wizard however, the lowest CL he can use for his haste scrolls is 5.

Did I phrase that well enough? (It's late)

[etrpgb]

Probably I did not underline the point enough. The point is, it is nornal, expected and RAW that a Chameleon casts Haste as a first level spell?

There might be little difference, but usually you have more low-level slots.

[Cranthis]

Probably I did not underline the point enough. The point is, it is nornal, expected and RAW that a Chameleon casts Haste as a first level spell?

There might be little difference, but usually you have more low-level slots.

As a Chameleon I would say yes, but only as a Chameleon.

[etrpgb]

Can you elaborate a little? Why the Chameleon and not the Archivist?
They seems conceptually the same to me (spellbook and whole category).

Scrolls has no "originating spell list" attached to them, usually a class member copies them copies as his own list type.
The problem does not apply when coping from another spellbook for example.

But since Archivists and Chameleons has all the lists (one divine and the other arcane) they can copy as the most convenient one. This is what seems to me by RAW, but RAI? It is not weirdly over-powered?

[Uncle Pine]

But since Archivists and Chameleons has all the lists (one divine and the other arcane) they can copy as the most convenient one. This is what seems to me by RAW, but RAI? It is not weirdly over-powered?

[My opinion]
It's true that both Archivists and Chameleons have acces to all the lists (respectively divine and arcane), but when you learn a spell from a scroll you should learn the spell that was used to craft that specific scroll, if applicable. This means that a wizard that wants to copy suggestion from a scroll written by a bard would still cast suggestion as a 3rd level spell, because that's how wizards cast suggestion. A Chameleon that copies the same spell from the same scroll would learn it as a 2nd level spell because it is and arcane scroll crafted by a bard.
[/My opinion]

By RAW, this is unclear because both classes (the Archivist and the Chameleon) were published after the basic rules on how to learn spells from scrolls. Moreover, the paragraph in the PHB about how wizards learn new spells doesn't state whether wizards can learn spells that are in their list from scrolls written by other spellcaster that are not wizards).

[Hirax]

All scrolls will have an associated spell level with them, it's required as part of their creation to determine how much it costs to make, what it's market price is, the caster level of the effect, and the save DC of the spell. I'd say that in order to scribe it into a spellbook, a character would need it to be arcane or divine, as appropriate, and also at a level appropriate for them to learn, in which case it goes into their book at the same level as it is on the scroll. So a wizard wouldn't be able to learn haste from a trapsmith's scroll of haste, but a chameleon would. Owing to the fact that there are advantages (higher DC) and disadvantages (cast from a lower level slot) to having spells tied to different levels, I'd treat haste (level 1) and haste (level 3) as completely different spells for the purposes of learning them. Yes, this is confusing, but I believe it results in no loose ends.

[ravagerofworlds]

This text has always been problematic for me;


A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

Taken literally (and in a vacuum of other textual sources), there is no reason why the wizard spell lists do not include every cleric, every druid, every ranger or any other spellcasting classes' lists if a member of that class also picked up Scribe Spell.

The way I make the rules internally consistent is... arcane scrolls can be copied, but divine scrolls cannot. My player who has a mystic theurge grumbled about it, but then we had a talk about convergent evolution of species-> many species, that are unrelated in the evolutionary tree develop similar adaptations and effects. Example; sharks and dolphins... one is a fish, the other a mammal, but both sport dorsal fins. Its easy to mistake one for the other at first glance. My mystic theurge player agreed that separation of powers was an important concept to adhere.

After that session, I looked up the rules on divine scrolls...

Divine Magical Writings
Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can (see Arcane Magical Writings). Any character with the Spellcraft skill can attempt to decipher the divine magical writing and identify it. However, only characters who have the spell in question (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.

[ericgrau]

"No matter what the spell's source..." doesn't mean he can copy it from any source. Just like the statement "Anything Bob does..." doesn't mean Bob can do anything.
http://i807.photobucket.com/albums/yy354/sarahinhamburg/grammar_time.jpg

[ravagerofworlds]

"No matter what the spell's source..." doesn't mean he can copy it from any source. Just like the statement "Anything Bob does..." doesn't mean Bob can do anything.


Which underscores my point. The text I quote is ambiguous without context from the next section I quote.

[ericgrau]

"Any character with the Spellcraft skill" gives anyone with the spellcraft skill, even a fighter for example, the ability to decipher magical writings regardless of the source. "Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can" likewise doesn't add any new writing ability though. It only says what can be done for those who have a writing ability.

"Arcane Magical Writings" covers both scrolls and spellbooks. The last sentence implies that it is expected that this rule will be used to scribe divine scrolls, but it may apply to divine casters who have a class feature that lets them write down spells in other ways. Regardless the rule does not grant any new writing ability, but refers to existing abilities.

[ravagerofworlds]

"Any character with the Spellcraft skill" gives anyone with the spellcraft skill, even a fighter for example, the ability to decipher magical writings regardless of the source. "Divine spells can be written down and deciphered just as arcane spells can" likewise doesn't add any new writing ability though. It only says what can be done for those who have a writing ability.

"Arcane Magical Writings" covers both scrolls and spellbooks. The last sentence implies that it is expected that this rule will be used to scribe divine scrolls, but it may apply to divine casters who have a class feature that lets them write down spells in other ways. Regardless the rule does not grant any new writing ability, but refers to existing abilities.

Ravager<- is not advocating for divine spells to be transformed into arcane spells.
Ravager<- is not advocating that a divine sourced spell with an arcane counterpart can be copied into a spellbook. Getting that arcane spell requires an arcane scroll or spellbook. Please see the convergent evolution example.
Ravager<- is advocating that the premise of this thread is invalid.

[etrpgb]

Can anyone re-read the first message and think about the topic?

[dextercorvia]

The Archivist can't learn Haste from that scroll because you said it is an arcane scroll. A wizard would learn it at 3rd level, because that is what level Haste is for them. A Chameleon would learn it at the level that it is scribed. This is the difference between having a list of your own and access to multiple lists.

Remember that, by default, arcane scrolls are assumed to be crafted by a Wizard. If you want your Chameleon to learn lower level versions of spells, you have to seek them out.

[Lyndworm]

Remember that, by default, arcane scrolls are assumed to be crafted by a Wizard.
Assumed by players, or even DMs, maybe. Do the books ever actually say anything to that effect?

[dextercorvia]

Assumed by players, or even DMs, maybe. Do the books ever actually say anything to that effect?


Several arcane spells are different in level for sorcerers and wizards than they are for bards. Such spells appear on the table at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Likewise, some divine spells are different in level for clerics and druids than they are for paladins and rangers. Such spells appear at the level appropriate to a cleric or druid (considered the default because paladins and rangers typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

If a divine spell is cast at different levels by clerics and druids, it appears at the level appropriate to a cleric (considered the default choice between clerics and druids).

Many spells are either arcane or divine, depending on the class of the caster. Such spells appear on both lists at the level appropriate to the class of the arcane or divine caster.

and


Determine Effect

A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell’s caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll (usually twice the spell’s level, minus 1), unless the caster specifically desires otherwise.

Found Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm)

You have to do some extrapolation, but it is there. This doesn't mean that they aren't available the other way, just that it isn't the default.

[Lyndworm]

That says Wizard or Sorcerer... Their spells are scribed a level apart, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Thanks for the link, though!

[dextercorvia]

That says Wizard or Sorcerer... Their spells are scribed a level apart, so that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Thanks for the link, though!

The spell level defaults to what it would be for a Sorcerer/Wizard. The second quote shows that caster level defaults (in the case of an arcane scroll) to that of a Wizard. Hence, the default assumption for a random arcane scroll is that it was made by a Wizard. Certainly a Bard, or a Trapfinder could make a scroll, and then it would use their statistics. But, if you wanted to purchase one, it would definitely fall under special orders.

[Lyndworm]

I can see where you're coming from, but the quote doesn't indicate (to me) that Wizards are the default scribers, only that the minimum caster level varies by class.

[Namfuak]

I can see where you're coming from, but the quote doesn't indicate (to me) that Wizards are the default scribers, only that the minimum caster level varies by class.



Such spells appear on the table at the level appropriate to a sorcerer or wizard (considered the default because bards typically don’t involve themselves in scribing scrolls).

Not to sound rude, but did you even read it? It's the second sentence.

[etrpgb]

And, anyhow, all those considerations won't tell me if Andrew can copy the scroll as a 5th level spell and Carl can copy the scroll as a 1th level spell...

[dextercorvia]

And, anyhow, all those considerations won't tell me if Andrew can copy the scroll as a 5th level spell and Carl can copy the scroll as a 1th level spell...

For that, you need to look at the classes themselves. First, scrolls are arcane or divine (or neither -- darn Artificers -- but those can't be used without UMD, so I'll ignore them). Artificers can only learn spells from divine writings, so that is out right there. A Wizard is going to learn it at the level that is appropriate for him because he has a class spell list.

A Chameleon is going to learn the spell at the level that it is presented to him, because of the line that he learns spells from any list. So if he has scroll with a third level Haste spell, or if he copies it out of a Wizards spellbook, he will learn it as a third level spell. If he picks up a copy scribed by a Trapsmith, then he will learn Haste as a 1st level spell.

An Archivist is going to work the same way, except that by default he uses the Cleric spell list, but can gain access to divine spells from other lists. So he can't scribe restoration into his prayerbook at level up as a 1st level spell, but must wait until he learns it from a Paladin to get it at that level.


I can see where you're coming from, but the quote doesn't indicate (to me) that Wizards are the default scribers, only that the minimum caster level varies by class.

But, 'usually twice the spell's level, minus 1' means that usually it was not scribed by a Sorcerer. In the PHB, that left Wizard.

[etrpgb]

But scrolls do not have the originating list attached to them. They are different only because they are divine or arcane.

Just to know, when you DM you actually check if the scroll of Irresistible Dance that your party has will be cast by the Wizard or the Bard?

[ravagerofworlds]

But scrolls do not have the originating list attached to them. They are different only because they are divine or arcane.

Just to know, when you DM you actually check if the scroll of Irresistible Dance that your party has will be cast by the Wizard or the Bard?

I do in my game. But I give it a 90% chance to be sorc/wiz list because wiz gets it at 1st level, and a bard would have to pick it as a feat. It's never been an issue in my games.

Some arcane scrolls, like a Bard's version of Cure Light Wounds, can only ever be a Bard spell.

[dextercorvia]

But scrolls do not have the originating list attached to them. They are different only because they are divine or arcane.

Just to know, when you DM you actually check if the scroll of Irresistible Dance that your party has will be cast by the Wizard or the Bard?

Scrolls do have a level associated with them, though. You can figure it out based on price. That level determines the saving throw, among other things.

I do keep track of what level spell they are casting, whether they cast it from a scroll or not. Otherwise, how do I set the saving throw DC, or decide how it interacts with Spell Turning. Like I said, the default assumption is that a generic scroll is made by a Wizard or a Cleric, unless it is required to be made by someone else (like a Druid).

If my PCs have been custom crafting or special ordering scrolls at different spell levels, or different caster levels, I expect them to say as much and pay for the difference.

[etrpgb]

You ignored my question, so in your party a Bard cannot cast a Irresistible Dance scroll fond in random treasure?


Some arcane scrolls, like a Bard's version of Cure Light Wounds, can only ever be a Bard spell.

Champions of Valor, page 111 might have something to tell you...

[dextercorvia]

You ignored my question, so in your party a Bard cannot cast a Irresistible Dance scroll fond in random treasure?



Champions of Valor, page 111 might have something to tell you...

I didn't ignore your question -- it was poorly phrased, and I answered what I thought you were asking. Any arcane caster can cast a spell from an arcane scroll if that spell appears on his list. What does that have to do with your original question?

Edit: and could you be slightly less obtuse, and say what you mean for those of us without CoV.

[ravagerofworlds]

You ignored my question, so in your party a Bard cannot cast a Irresistible Dance scroll fond in random treasure?



Champions of Valor, page 111 might have something to tell you...

Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibleDance.htm)is a on 6th level Bard Spell List (and 8th level Sorc/Wiz). A bard casting this spell from a scroll, must still meet all the requirements whether the original scroll was crafted by a bard or wizard, as per the rules.


Decipher the Writing
The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level).

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

So if it is a Bard scroll (10% in my games), then it is DC 26. If it is a sorc/wiz scroll, then it is DC 28.

Champs of Valor-> Knight of the Weave is a specialized prestige class from the Faerun setting that fuses palidan and sorcerer. /Shrugs. There's all sorts of weird stuff that people will publish in violation of core, or that supercedes core. The dream of an arcane healer has for the most part been resisted by both TSR and WotC. Maintaining the traditional spell lists is essential to current game balance and class archetypes. So if you're gaming in Faerun, great for you. That prestige class is based on Faerun's conception of magic. It is a subset of the core. You know that line, every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square? It's this sort of thing. That is of course, sans laissez faire GMs- it's ultimately their group, and their story.

[Lyndworm]

But, 'usually twice the spell's level, minus 1' means that usually it was not scribed by a Sorcerer. In the PHB, that left Wizard.
Fair enough. Thank you very much for the discussion. :smallsmile: