Diablo II

[willpell]

With Diablo 3 out now, I'd imagine the number of people still playing its predecessor is going to be even lower than it has been, but I for one am still not giving it up. Just today I went back in and played my highest-level Necromancer, who found the unique Maul "Bonesnap" very early in his career and thus has been stronger and more melee-focused than most Necros ever since. Fighting in Nightmare mode, I got as far as Tristram where I killed some upgraded Night Clans - and I got Bonesnap again. So, naturally, I turned it into an Iron Golem.

What other neat D2 stories do people have? And has anyone besides me thought of trying to run a tabletop (or PBP) game heavily influenced by D2's story and setting?

[KillianHawkeye]

My favorite golem was the Blood Golem.



I once tried to race a friend's teleport Sorceress with my axe-wielding frenzy Barb. I had a lot of +Speed stuff. I actually almost kept up with her until my frenzy wore off. :smallamused:




And has anyone besides me thought of trying to run a tabletop (or PBP) game heavily influenced by D2's story and setting?

They made a couple books porting Diablo 2 to the d20 system, if you're interested in a D&D-type game.

[Winthur]

I still play Diablo 2 with my friends over TCP/IP (because b.net is unnecessary for us, and it doesn't have players 8, but it does have a lot of bots and realms down) with just one small addition - to be able to use battle.net ladder runewords (there's a mod for that). Muling on Single/LAN is also much easier. Right now I'm playing Werebear as a tank for a Bone Necro. And we just started Nightmare. We're probably having too much fun laughing at the ridiculous names for monsters and rare items. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

They made a couple books porting Diablo 2 to the d20 system, if you're interested in a D&D-type game.

Yea, but it really and truly was bad. And by bad, I mean 'More mechanical problems than Truenamer'. It was worse than the Everquest D20 and WoW D20 ports. And that's saying something.

As for me, there are a few characters of mine which stand out...

Sir Theodous was my Avenger Pally. Ran around with Zeal + Conviction, and switched to Vengeance for higher damage output on bosses. Sure, his damage output wasn't as high as say a Tesladin or Hammerdain might have been, but it was guaranteed damage. Oh, the full Saigon's gear, plus gemming and throwing a perfect diamond into the shield, ensured I had capped saves. Sure, it took me forever to kill a boss... but I was also damn near impossible to kill as well. And it didn't matter what kind of immunities the mobs had... I could do something to it with the same setup.

My first Sorceress Maguna was a frost-spec, with Frozen Sphere. Too bad Piercing Cold didn't bust immunities like Conviction did, or she'd have been flat amazing. As it was, her backup damage output was fire, and was significantly less impressive. She was more focused on battlefield control than actual damage output, although spamming frozen sphere took down Diablo and Baal quite readily.

I still play, but never on the battle net. I enjoy LAN play with close friends occasionally, but that's as much multiplayer as I ever want with my Diablo offerings. Which is one reason I flat refuse to purchase D3.

[Starwulf]

There is actually an extremely long running pbp Diablo 2 game here on the GITP forums, it's been going for well over a year and a half now, almost done it's second OOC thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239234&page=39 Run by Enrir.

[peacenlove]

There is also Median XL (http://modsbylaz.hugelaser.com/), a mod that significantly extends the lifetime of that game (their forums (http://www.medianxl.com/) are more up to date). Its very fun and adds a level of complexity and tactics, I believe the original diablo didn't have.

[willpell]

I had a couple rules questions about D2 and I can't find another forum to ask them in, since the forums at diablo2.com have apparently been abandoned by the mods and nobody new can register (I signed up with an account name, but can't post unless a mod approves me and none have done so within 24 hours, plus there's a thread saying that they left like two months ago).

Remember I mentioned I have an Iron Golem made out of Bonesnap? If I use "Reset Stat/Skill Points" so that I no longer have any points in Iron Golem, will the golem die?

Less importantly, if I cast Valkyrie while wearing a Maiden's Amulet and then switch this amulet for a different one, is my Valkyrie still as powerful as the higher skill level indicates, or is it instantly reduced to my current level?

[Traab]

You will lose the iron golem if you lose all points in the skill. What I am NOT sure of, is if you buy a weapon that adds +1 to iron golem before you respec, will its stats drop to a level 1 skill? And if so, will they boost back up after you put your points into it? THATS the real question. It would suck to lose a kickass golem like this. Ill be honest, I stopped playing diablo 2 when they kinded ruined my skellymancer build. I couldnt fight diablo even on the lowest difficulty because he just wipes out almost all my pets with that giant fire nova before I even get to see him, let alone try to taunt him away from my pets with my clay golem. Biggest pile of bs ever to give him skills that let him attack you from off screen.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You will lose the iron golem if you lose all points in the skill. What I am NOT sure of, is if you buy a weapon that adds +1 to iron golem before you respec, will its stats drop to a level 1 skill? And if so, will they boost back up after you put your points into it? THATS the real question. It would suck to lose a kickass golem like this. Ill be honest, I stopped playing diablo 2 when they kinded ruined my skellymancer build. I couldnt fight diablo even on the lowest difficulty because he just wipes out almost all my pets with that giant fire nova before I even get to see him, let alone try to taunt him away from my pets with my clay golem. Biggest pile of bs ever to give him skills that let him attack you from off screen.

Minionmancer is still a viable build, you just can't rely on skellies on boss fights.

Hit level 30, and pick up disposable minions from the critters you kill. Those tend to be more effective than skellies.

In general, a Minionmancer Necro is probably the weakest against a boss fight, even with curses to back you up. However, they rock blocks when paired with a pally who acts as a tank.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ill be honest, I stopped playing diablo 2 when they kinded ruined my skellymancer build. I couldnt fight diablo even on the lowest difficulty because he just wipes out almost all my pets with that giant fire nova before I even get to see him, let alone try to taunt him away from my pets with my clay golem. Biggest pile of bs ever to give him skills that let him attack you from off screen.

Then you really need to try playing again. The 1.10 patch made skellies WAY stronger. They're now the dominant force in my army, with the golem and revived monsters just serving as support.

I haven't played for a while, tho, so if they for some reason released a new patch recently and re-nerfed skeletons back to the days of being made from straw and cardboard, then I retract my statement.

[willpell]

You will lose the iron golem if you lose all points in the skill.

I suspected as much. Well, I'll just wait; he's sure to get killed eventually. It's just too bad I can't right-click on my golem to see the item he's made out of, just for the bling factor.


I stopped playing diablo 2 when they kinded ruined my skellymancer build. I couldnt fight diablo even on the lowest difficulty because he just wipes out almost all my pets with that giant fire nova before I even get to see him, let alone try to taunt him away from my pets with my clay golem. Biggest pile of bs ever to give him skills that let him attack you from off screen.

Well, he's the game boss (or was before LOD at least), so it's not like he should be easy. If you've got 20 points each in Skeleton and Skeleton Mastery, plus a good golem and a curse and some decent equipment on yourself, you should be capable of winning...that said, it makes sense that Necromancer would have the hardest time in that fight just because there aren't any corpses around for him to use. Still, I managed it once with the character I'm talking about (at level 30-some), though I'm not certain how.


Then you really need to try playing again. The 1.10 patch made skellies WAY stronger. They're now the dominant force in my army, with the golem and revived monsters just serving as support.

The golem is the tank and always will be; in boss fights I invariably lose all my undead fast, and have to keep summoning new (non-iron) golems just to keep the boss off my back while I snipe with curses and a crossbow. Necromancers in general tend not to be great in a boss fight, but there's gotta be some tradeoff for having the best (pre-Druid at least) ability to fight on multiple fronts simultaneously.


I haven't played for a while, tho, so if they for some reason released a new patch recently and re-nerfed skeletons back to the days of being made from straw and cardboard, then I retract my statement.

I'm told they're up to patch 1.13.

[Gnoman]

I always liked pairing a Necromancer (focusing on maximum skeletons) with a Paladin (Focusing on thorns and smite). A lot of enemies simply died when they hit a skeleton, while in boss fights the minon swarm kept them distracted.

[Traab]

The problem with being a golemancer is that I like my army. My army kicks ass and takes names. It protects me from almost everything. There are all of 2 dungeons in the entire game that makes it suck to be a skellymancer, both in act 2. Ok, so the kurast sewers can have some narrow areas too, but its still not as bad as the arcane sanctum or the maggot lair. There are really 2-3 bosses in the entire game that are tought to beat as a skellymancer, duriel, he just punches everything to death fast, diablo because he has so many high damage aoe and dot skills, and baal at the higher levels.

They all have the same "weakness" and thats to summon a clay golem facing him away from my skeletons and keep resummoning it till the boss dies. The problem with diablo is, his fire nova has such a long range it hits me while im sitting in my chair. My skeletal minions tend to die in the first hit, 2 at most. By then im down to 3 minions max, and by the time my clay golem is up im lucky if any are alive. If they ARE alive, then im lucky to last the first firestorm ability, because it instagibs my golem and he turns around and wastes my remaining skels before I can resummon.

Yes I know all about the patch that made my pets rule. I used to be able to waltz all over diablo with my skellymancer with maybe a couple trips out to resummon skeletons and return to the battle. Now though, I reinstalled, I dunno, a couple months ago maybe? And suddenly diablo was crushing me utterly on normal. (so no level 20 skeletons and mastery and curse and summon resist and /sigh)

[Derjuin]

The problem with being a golemancer is that I like my army. My army kicks ass and takes names. It protects me from almost everything. There are all of 2 dungeons in the entire game that makes it suck to be a skellymancer, both in act 2. Ok, so the kurast sewers can have some narrow areas too, but its still not as bad as the arcane sanctum or the maggot lair. There are really 2-3 bosses in the entire game that are tought to beat as a skellymancer, duriel, he just punches everything to death fast, diablo because he has so many high damage aoe and dot skills, and baal at the higher levels.

They all have the same "weakness" and thats to summon a clay golem facing him away from my skeletons and keep resummoning it till the boss dies. The problem with diablo is, his fire nova has such a long range it hits me while im sitting in my chair. My skeletal minions tend to die in the first hit, 2 at most. By then im down to 3 minions max, and by the time my clay golem is up im lucky if any are alive. If they ARE alive, then im lucky to last the first firestorm ability, because it instagibs my golem and he turns around and wastes my remaining skels before I can resummon.

Yes I know all about the patch that made my pets rule. I used to be able to waltz all over diablo with my skellymancer with maybe a couple trips out to resummon skeletons and return to the battle. Now though, I reinstalled, I dunno, a couple months ago maybe? And suddenly diablo was crushing me utterly on normal. (so no level 20 skeletons and mastery and curse and summon resist and /sigh)

The reason most bosses rip summons etc. to shreds is because they inflict 8x damage on them. Hell Duriel can 3-shot my assassin's merc, even though he normally can tank hits from a unique pack of lightning beetles by himself.

If you really wanna add some bang to your army, consider using an Edge bow (Tir + Tal + Amn, any 3 socket missile weapon) on either yourself or an Act 1 Merc, which grants level 15 Thorns aura. Use Amplify Damage and Corpse Explosion together as well, and you'll literally be wrecking things. Just the Thorns Aura + Amp Damage results in double damage thorns (1620% damage returned), while Amp + Corpse Explosion gives you around 90% of the corpse's HP in damage. Revives are the best choice for this, since they have much more HP than skeletons and less Armor, so they get hit more often.

My last character was also my second real, serious attempt at hardcore mode: a traps/ninja assassin, focusing on Mind Blast to convert foes, Cloak of Shadows to blind archers, and Death Sentry to eliminate tough opponents. She actually made it :smallbiggrin:! Though Duriel was a bit of a HUGE FREAKING JERK (http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc273/xilobucket/DURIELWHAT.png) in hell mode...

Edit: Just discovered my on-board graphics runs Diablo 2 better than my video card did...:smalleek:

[willpell]

The big problem I have with Revive is that it only lasts 3 minutes - and the clock doesn't stop when you go to town! Arrrgh!

Also I tend to like to micromanage, so I wish there was a menu where you could pull up a list of all your minions and see how much health they have, what species of monster a Revive is, what energy a Skeleton Mage casts, and could unsummon particular ones either immediately or by setting them as "low priority", so they'd be the ones to die if you made new ones. All told I want playing a Necromancer to seem like playing an RTS, where you don't actually fight yourself, you just keep your army repaired while they do everything.

[Winthur]

To be honest Skellymancer is the easiest build to solo the game with just because skellies can tank for you so well. I'm not sure about the boss problems, against Diablo you just need a point in Summon Resist and Decrepify and a few trips back home for recruiting new armies.

About the biggest problem I had was with Hell-level Glooms in Act 5 which would one-shot me because I didn't have sufficient lightning resistance. If you have Thundergod's you're probably set, but for me, fighting Glooms involved a ton of Dim Vision spamming and really careful play.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be honest Skellymancer is the easiest build to solo the game with just because skellies can tank for you so well. I'm not sure about the boss problems, against Diablo you just need a point in Summon Resist and Decrepify and a few trips back home for recruiting new armies.

About the biggest problem I had was with Hell-level Glooms in Act 5 which would one-shot me because I didn't have sufficient lightning resistance. If you have Thundergod's you're probably set, but for me, fighting Glooms involved a ton of Dim Vision spamming and really careful play.

Skellymancer is fine for anything other than bosses. Well, enclosed areas can be a pain, and teleporting around can also cause you to leave minions behind, but in general, it's great for anything that doesn't involve a boss

Against bosses, however, nothing is going to save your minions. A few levels in Summon Resist is *NOT* going to save them. A Fire Golem can tank Diablo for a bit, because he absorbs fire damage, but it's still not going to save your skeletons who all get wiped out on his first fire nova. If he would simply attack them, you could simply use Iron Maiden to make them a more improved version of Corpse Explosion, but it's the AE he uses that is most dangerous to them.

As far as healing minions, that's what the curse Life Tap does. Makes the Necro one of the best healers in the game.

Decrepify is fun as an all-round go-to curse to swing a nerf bat at whatever you are facing, make no mistake. However, judicious use of Iron Maiden and Life Tap can give you a LOT of use out of your minions.

[-teacup]

(Disclaimer: I exclusively played hardcore without trading, and 95% of my Diablo 2 playtime came after patch 1.10. They made some drastic changes to the game in that patch. Also, since I played online, I didn't have access to the /players X command. For these reasons my experience may differ from your own.)


Skellymancer is fine for anything other than bosses. Well, enclosed areas can be a pain, and teleporting around can also cause you to leave minions behind, but in general, it's great for anything that doesn't involve a boss

Against bosses, however, nothing is going to save your minions. A few levels in Summon Resist is *NOT* going to save them.

The only time a skellymancer should have trouble with bosses is in normal difficulty. Ironically, that's the time when they are most dangerous because you don't have all you skills or any decent gear yet. Once you hit early/mid nightmare the act bosses should be easy but boring. The key is stacking massive amounts of slow. Clay golem, decrepify, and chilling (cold damage) all stack on act bosses. I use my single point in skeletal mages to make some cold mages for chilling. I believe that "Hit slows target" weapons don't stack with clay golem so don't bother with those. While there is a minimum frame rate beyond which additional slowing has no effect, it's so low that it's not worth worrying about. A single point plus skill adders is all it takes to cripple the act bosses. With that much slow their AI breaks and they'll mostly just stand in one place, melee your goons, and die.

It may take a while for them to finally die, but it should be easy and safe. I took a naked skellymancer (wearing nothing but a cracked sash) all the way to hell before an unlucky cold enchanted death explosion got me. Try giving your merc a weapon with crushing blow to speed things up. Some one even made a variant build that puts 20 points in an unsynergized poison dagger (for the AR bonus) so they could put down act bosses faster. (Use a "strength" runeword dagger.) I wouldn't do that unless you were experienced though.

Note: The "slow them to ineptitude" tactic doesn't work well in Uber Tristram for a variety of reasons.


However, judicious use of Iron Maiden and Life Tap can give you a LOT of use out of your minions.
Iron Maiden, thorns and the like are awful after normal difficulty since they dramatically raised nightmare/hell monster life (but not damage) in 1.10. They're not very effective anymore.

Almost every skellymancer should keep a staff with charges of teleport as their alt weapon. I recommend you shop for one at drognan's in act 2 normal. Naj's puzzler has an absurdly high level of teleport which makes repair costs annoying. When you use the teleport spell, all your minions group back up and land where you do. This can be handy for repositioning, and also against bosses. Just teleport on top of them and *bamf* they're surrounded by your minions. Remember to switch back to your real weapon when you're done teleporting though.


What other neat D2 stories do people have?My "Obedience" fire sorc got some funny comments. "Why is your sorceress carrying a polearm in hell?" It turns out that -25% to enemy fire resists gave me more damage against highly fire resistant monsters than the +4 skills from dual "Spirits". (Assuming of course, that I got the other necessary mods elsewhere.) Non-resistant monsters die easily either way. If some one had conviction or spammed lower resists, then the +4 skills would work better, but I didn't party with anyone doing that. Plus, "Obedience" gives style points! Tragically, she died to the infamous lag monster in the river of flame on hell difficulty.

I had a lot of fun with fire druids. I even wrote a guide (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=82428) for them.

I'm a little upset that Blizzard never bothered to fix the MANY MANY bugs in diablo 2. For example, the %enhanced damage on the Sanctuary aura doesn't work. The attack rating bonus on the bow and javelin skills isn't applied. Mob leaders with mixed fire/cold/lightning enchantments still have multiple invisible server-side death explosions. When holding down the mouse button, the hunger skill always whiffs every other attack. In spite of all this (and much more) I still enjoyed playing that game.

[Traab]

I loved my fire druid. Until I hit nightmare hell and EVERYTHING was fireproof. Fissure was just freaking insanely awesome for clearing wide spaces of living mobs, cast it through a doorway wait 2 seconds then walk in and loot everything that was in there. But god it sucked when I hit fireproof. Suddenly nothing was dying, except me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you are having a problem with mana regen, a Prayer merc (act 2 Normal) + Insight polearm solves your problem handily. It's not even particularly difficult to make. But why Prayer specifically and not, say, a Cold merc for battlefield control? Because of the synergy bonus. Basically, you'll be getting twice the Prayer hit point regen because of Meditation's synergy bonus from Prayer. Hit point regen is nice. It's very nice. It means you can go faster, because you top off quicker.

My skelemancer basically stopped being effective around Nightmare. Oh, sure, the skeles pwned Durial, but Diablo curbstomped them with his initial nova before my golem could slow-lock him.

[Traab]

My skellymancer was actually the first character I got to baal in hell difficulty. This was back when the synergy patch was brand new and a lot of classes got pretty massive boosts. Especially my necro. The hardest part was the three ancients, because i think they were physical immune, or at least resistant, and it was almost a standoff. I couldnt kill them, (very very VERY slowly they were dying) and my pets were so juiced up with hit points and such that they werent dying very fast either. Iirc, I had a might aura merc, and was spamming amplify damage so they would actually get hurt by physical. But it was awhile ago, so i dont really remember clearly. This was all solo play btw, no buying selling or trading for awesome runeword gear or whatever. Just doing my best with what was available from random loot. Hell, I think the only runeword gear I ever bothered with was a tal ral ort shield on normal. And thats because its almost impossible to NOT get those runes early on.

[willpell]

You guys are all way above my level. My most advanced character is an Amazon 48 who just killed Duriel on Nightmare. I've gotten some distance into act 3 Nightmare with my two-weapon Barbarian 42 (not a great build, I know, especially since he sunk a lot of his skill points into Find Item before I learned that it wasn't a great skill, at least not given that I play multiple characters), but once I got to somewhere in the Kurast or Travnical area, I just couldn't survive. Besides those, the only characters I've run through so much as act 1 of Nightmare are Paladins.

[Psyren]

For Druids, Windy is the way to go. For casters, you generally want a class that has either Magic damage (very few immunes) or two high-damage elements. Windy Druids have powerful cold and physical, as well as massive health from their spirit.

My best character though was my bonemancer with Enigma and a Meditation merc; Wizspike helps your resistances a great deal.

[willpell]

Another question occurred to me, and after all this time I don't think I have any hope of researching an answer, so I'm hoping someone just happens to know.

There are Orange-colored items in the game (notably Items Of Spikes, or maybe it's Of Swords - Attacker Takes Damage of Some Highish Number). The Orange is definitely not red or yellow, both of which can be seen on other items (Of the Wolf for red, Of Greed and Of Light for yellow, among others). Why is there not an Orange gem that you can put into a socketed item to make it turn Orange? I'm guessing one was planned at some point but either never included in the game or removed from it? Anybody have any clue what the story was here?

[Gnoman]

Orange items are a special set of item that is created using the Horadric cube.

[Psyren]

To expand on Gnoman's answer, orange items are Crafted items. These are similar to Rares (yellow) in that they can have more than two magical properties, but unlike rares you have a little more control over the prefixes and suffixes that actually end up on them.

[Derjuin]

Orange items are a special set of item that is created using the Horadric cube.


To expand on Gnoman's answer, orange items are Crafted items. These are similar to Rares (yellow) in that they can have more than two magical properties, but unlike rares you have a little more control over the prefixes and suffixes that actually end up on them.

I think what he is actually referring to is the *color* of the item on your character, not the item's name. Unfortunately, there's no known way to make an item orange without adding a mod for item dyes. It'd be nice to add options, though (via mods). Orange is a nice color!

Basically, certain types of mods are associated with certain colors. +Life, +Vit, +Life per level and +Life% are all red armor items; +All resistances are always purple; etc. etc. Gems (not Jewels, nor Runes) work similarly - a Ruby turns an item red, while a Sapphire turns an item blue. Spikes/Swords are orange; I'm not sure what other abilities coincide with that, unfortunately. I'm also not sure how the color of rare items work - rather, how it picks which color the item is. Sometimes it's obvious (purple shield has no other stats which cause a color change? ofc it's purple), but sometimes it's not (+life, +all resist, and +light radius? ????)

[willpell]

I think what he is actually referring to is the *color* of the item on your character, not the item's name.

Correct.


Unfortunately, there's no known way to make an item orange without adding a mod for item dyes.

I suspected as much; what I'm curious about is whether anyone knows the reason.

[Winthur]

My "Obedience" fire sorc got some funny comments. "Why is your sorceress carrying a polearm in hell?" It turns out that -25% to enemy fire resists gave me more damage against highly fire resistant monsters than the +4 skills from dual "Spirits". (Assuming of course, that I got the other necessary mods elsewhere.) Non-resistant monsters die easily either way. If some one had conviction or spammed lower resists, then the +4 skills would work better, but I didn't party with anyone doing that. Plus, "Obedience" gives style points! Tragically, she died to the infamous lag monster in the river of flame on hell difficulty.

That is very interesting, shame I only now noticed it. Do you think you could pull that off in players 8 (and if not, who would you need in a party)? Also, do you happen to have other fun, Hell-viable builds or ideas involving polearms? (My friend has a Grim Reaper fascination and really wants to play something revolving around style points for scythes...)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That is very interesting, shame I only now noticed it. Do you think you could pull that off in players 8 (and if not, who would you need in a party)? Also, do you happen to have other fun, Hell-viable builds or ideas involving polearms? (My friend has a Grim Reaper fascination and really wants to play something revolving around style points for scythes...)

Insight polearm is always fun for massive mana regeneration. Even more fun if you put it on an Act2 Prayer Merc for fun times with hp regen.

As another option, a Paladin can use Insight to have Meditation going on as well as whatever aura they choose... for example, Conviction. While not as personally powerful, it's enormously useful in a group with others who are mana hogs.

The problem with a polearm, indeed any two handed weapons, is it is that fewer properties you have on your person. For a pally, a good pally shield, particularly one with a rune word in it, can easily cap out your resistances on Normal or even Nightmare difficulties. It won't be until you hit Hell that it won't do the job for you, and you will need to supplement the resist all from your shield with something else.

[-teacup]

That is very interesting, shame I only now noticed it. Do you think you could pull that off in players 8 (and if not, who would you need in a party)?
I wouldn't try a single element sorc in players 8. Killing fire immunes would take too long. I think you could manage fine if you had another player effective at killing fire immunes; the specific build wouldn't matter if they can manage that.


Also, do you happen to have other fun, Hell-viable builds or ideas involving polearms? (My friend has a Grim Reaper fascination and really wants to play something revolving around style points for scythes...)
Barbs work well with polearms and other 2 handed melee weapons. I wrote a guardian report on my experience with a concentrate polearm barbarian (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=82262). One of my first Guardians was a maul wielding berserker barb (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=80627). Mauls and polearms should be roughly equivalent gameplay wise, so I'm certain that a berserker can work. Whirlwind should work too if you use a fast weapon. The key to playing shieldless is mastering the war cry tree.

Other people have mentioned "Insight" for its handy meditation aura. It's also an excellent weapon, giving 200%+ enhanced damage and critical strike. When playing untwinked, just about all of my mercs end up wielding an "insight" polearm because it's the easiest way to get a high damage weapon.

Shifter druids are another valid option for polearms. Make sure you have a lot of on-weapon increased attack speed though. Shifter attack speeds are weird. Investigate build plans using an attack speed calculator.

[Ernir]

I coincidentally saw this thread from the front page. Heh.

There is actually an extremely long running pbp Diablo 2 game here on the GITP forums, it's been going for well over a year and a half now, almost done it's second OOC thread. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239234&page=39 Run by Enrir.
About two and a half years, actually, and we're about done with the third OoC thread. :smallbiggrin:

And they are at the bottom of the Catacombs. I'd guess a few rounds away from Andariel.


That is very interesting, shame I only now noticed it. Do you think you could pull that off in players 8 (and if not, who would you need in a party)? Also, do you happen to have other fun, Hell-viable builds or ideas involving polearms? (My friend has a Grim Reaper fascination and really wants to play something revolving around style points for scythes...)
Just to mention it, almost anything involving Lightning damage* and the Infinity runeword is going to plow through hell.
With the high runes it requires, though, it's not really a viable option in single player unless your friend is so uninterested in the item grinding minigame that he's willing to cheat.


*Fire works decently too. However, the reason Infinity works well with Lightning is that the real resist behind Lightning immunes in hell tends to be lower than that of Cold and Fire immunes, making it break-able via even the low level Conviction aura of Infinity.


My "Obedience" fire sorc got some funny comments. "Why is your sorceress carrying a polearm in hell?" It turns out that -25% to enemy fire resists gave me more damage against highly fire resistant monsters than the +4 skills from dual "Spirits". (Assuming of course, that I got the other necessary mods elsewhere.) Non-resistant monsters die easily either way. If some one had conviction or spammed lower resists, then the +4 skills would work better, but I didn't party with anyone doing that. Plus, "Obedience" gives style points! Tragically, she died to the infamous lag monster in the river of flame on hell difficulty.
Hardly surprising. The average monster fire resistance is high in the later two difficulties, damage multipliers have to be really high to catch up to flat resistance reductions. (Unfortunately, they don't break immunities. Oh, well.)

Making the FCR and FHR breakpoints without the hands slots has to be a pain, though. :smalltongue:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just to mention it, almost anything involving Lightning damage* and the Infinity runeword is going to plow through hell.
With the high runes it requires, though, it's not really a viable option in single player unless your friend is so uninterested in the item grinding minigame that he's willing to cheat.

Tesladins (paladins specializing in Lightning Aura and Zeal to crank out obscene DPS) wielding Infinity are very, very fun to play with. The rune word itself isn't bad. Prevent monster heal is always a riot, and the combination of lower enemy lightning resist on top of conviction is always lulzworthy. Sure, it'll be hard to get your +skill items with a polearm, and you won't be able to use something like HoZ if it ever comes up, but it's quite solid, even if the runes are a PITA to get.

Amusingly enough, the scythe is actually not a bad weapon to put the rune word on. It's the fastest polearm in the game, and only a half a point difference between it and the 'final' polearm, of the elite versions (Thresher: 12 to 141 (76.5 Avg), Giant Thresher: 40 to 114 (77 Avg)... the only difference being reach)

Also, for necro heads, if you find a good two-socket necro head, either Rhyme or Splendor can fit in it. Rhyme, of course, is lower end, and will probably take you through to where you can find the Lum to make Splendor with, which at least has +1 skills.

[Starwulf]

I coincidentally saw this thread from the front page. Heh.

About two and a half years, actually, and we're about done with the third OoC thread. :smallbiggrin:

And they are at the bottom of the Catacombs. I'd guess a few rounds away from Andariel.


I remember when I first came to these forums, I started following your thread, and then a few weeks later I ended up pointing someone else to your Diablo game in a thread and you ended up posting in it as well.

I actually didn't even know the game was still alive until a week ago, I hadn't realized that the OoC thread that I was following had reached post limit and it never updated again, so I assumed it had died. It wasn't until I posted in this thread to give an example of a well-run Diablo 2 PbP game, and went digging for the old OoC thread that I saw the notice about the thread being continued in a new one. LOL. Kind of sucks, I'm so far behind now :-(

[-teacup]

Making the FCR and FHR breakpoints without the hands slots has to be a pain, though. :smalltongue:

Yeah, I don't really remember her gear. "Obedience" has 40% FHR though. I'm pretty sure she had magefist (20% FCR) and either vipermagi (30% FCR) or stealth (25% FCR). Choose 2 of [rare FCR ring, rare FCR ammy, crafted caster belt] to hit the 63% FCR (9 frame) break point. That's an acceptable casting speed, so it isn't that hard to achieve. Hitting the 105% FCR (8 frame) breakpoint would be hard, but I only really worry about that one if I'm going to do a lot of blind teleporting. I usually want blocking when I'm doing that anyways.

[jedipilot24]

Various D2 characters I have made over the years include:

A bonecaster Necromancer (All bone skills)
A Zealot Paladin (Zeal/Fanaticsm/Holy Shield)
A Werebear Druid who also summons a wolf pack
A Chain Lightning Sorceress
A Double-Swing Barbarian
A Tiger Claw Assassin (Tiger Strike/Dragon Claw)

Overall, I think I liked the Assassin best--if only because I never had to worry about keys.
My favorite mercs were the Iron Wolves (Cold) when I was a melee character and the Desert Guards (Prayer Aura) when I was a spellcaster.

And all the guides that tell you not to put any stat points into Energy? They lie; I followed that advice and my Paladin, my Necromancer, and my Sorceress all had serious mana issues, such that I was burning through mana potions faster than I could find them and having to make frequent trips back to town. That, naturally, also meant that I burning through my TP's and gold really fast and often led to points where I couldn't even afford to rezzy my merc when he (frequently) died. Eventually I found some +mana after kill items that mostly alleviated the problem.
The Druid and Assassin didn't have as many problems because the Druid only needed enough mana to recast all his pets and then transform while the Assassin could get by with mana-leech items and going back to town whenever she needed to resummon her Shadow Warrior/Shadow Master.
The Barbarian, of course, didn't care about mana once his Double Swing got up high enough.

[Winthur]

And all the guides that tell you not to put any stat points into Energy? They lie; I followed that advice and my Paladin, my Necromancer, and my Sorceress all had serious mana issues, such that I was burning through mana potions faster than I could find them and having to make frequent trips back to town. That, naturally, also meant that I burning through my TP's and gold really fast and often led to points where I couldn't even afford to rezzy my merc when he (frequently) died. Eventually I found some +mana after kill items that mostly alleviated the problem.

Then the Energy points become useless strictly due to the abundance of items that enhance mana or Energy. Particularly unique items for casters. Can't find those? Chipped Sapphires, various jewelry (+ to mana per kill). Make a Tal+Eth in a Breast Plate. Team up with a Barbarian friend, remind him to BO you.

Are you a melee Paladin? Use Sacrifice early on, it's your best bet. Are you a Hammerdin? The game is already easy mode, just run the aforementioned setup, go out there and win. Each energy point gives the Paladin measly 1.5 mana. It won't help you with any mana issues at all. Your auras don't even cost mana, and they provide you and everyone else with pretty damn broken buffs.

Mercenary keeps dying in Normal? Give him a random high quality armor on the ground, he will have a hard time dying even on players 8. Past Nightmare? I wouldn't say mana consumption is a problem, particularly with Insight runeword.

Now it's a moot point because you can re-stat so indeed early on you can put on some mana, spam spells and clear faster and get to juicy stuff faster, but really I rarely see the point to put points into energy unless you are a caster. On a Paladin? I wouldn't. On Sorceress or Necro? Would rather avoid it. I know I went untwinked with a Summoner Necro and a Meteorb and didn't go into Energy and it wasn't ever really bad. Gold is pretty worthless in this game all things considered and you don't spend much of it in normals unless you find a kickass item at a blacksmith (3/3 wand at Drognan, let's say) or if you gamble.

I would simply avoid it on end-game builds. Before that, if you are a Sorcie and aren't extremely paranoid about your Akara re-specs like myself, you can put everything into Energy and once you get mana items re-spec that into Vitality.

About the max I'd put in Energy would be up to 50, and only on Sorceress.

[willpell]

I have a thorny problem with one of my current characters, a Druid; he dates back to the early days of my playing career and I've been in no hurry to get him advanced, but now I find myself in the position of being level 34 and very much wanting to be able to beat Baal before I exceed level 36 (this seems to be the "sweet spot" for me winning that particular fight; my last three characters to complete Normal were all right around there). The problem is that this character's build is designed for crusing through the standard scenario with minimal effort, and he seems to be absolutely useless against the big messy boss fight at the end.

This Druid specializes above all else in summons; he's got no shapeshifting at all, and while he does occasionally slash things with a Prevent Monster Heal sword, he mostly just sits in the back and lets his Dire Wolves, Spirit of Thorns, and Raven do all the work. (I have access to all three Vines but none of them are ever going to be terribly relevant against Baal.) I have only two skill points to put toward the character before hitting my self-imposed limit, and have nothing on the Fire side of Elemental, though I have gone up as far as Tornado on the Wind chain. I have put multiple points in Dire Wolf and really don't want to go to a Grizzly instead, unless this is the only hope I will ever have of winning. I'm prepared to believe that might be the case, but certainly don't want to switch if it isn't going to help.

So what's likely to be my best hope of pulling this win off? Do I sink more points into Dire Wolf in the hopes that they'll become tough enough to survive Baal's various megablasts (notably the ring of fire hammers, which seems to kill all the Wolves at once, making it seemingly pointless to summon more)? Do I add both points to Tornado? Or do I buy up to Hurricane? Note that I'm only asking about how best to invest these skills; there may be various items which could help me but I'm far from guaranteed to be capable of acquiring them.

[Derjuin]

<Baal troubles>

I would recommend using Grizzly and Oak Sage together instead of Spirit of Barbs and wolves. The wolves will never really scale well; once you hit hell, or even late nightmare, they'll become very squishy. Using Oak Sage helps a little, but a Grizzly with one out can tank like a champ (usually).

Unfortunately, druid summoning is not as powerful as necromancer summoning, and needs as much help as it can get. If you don't have one, consider using an Act 2 Mercenary for one of its auras; Combat mercenaries in Normal/Hell get Prayer, which synergizes nicely with an Insight polearm runeword (Ral Tir Tal Sol).

If you can get your hands on an Amn rune (which shouldn't be too hard - they can drop in the Worldstone Keep on normal, if I'm not mistaken) you can make a Spirit sword for yourself as well (Tal Thul Ort Amn). Both of these item suggestions, however, require that you're playing online Ladder. All of the runes here are relatively easy to acquire - Worldstone Keep can drop Amns, Thuls, Orts and Sols (again, if I recall correctly) and the Countess can drop everything underneath them.

Unfortunately, after the 1.10 patch when synergies were introduced, the game became a lot less "dip friendly" - there are still one point wonders (Warmth, Teleport, Energy Shield, Cloak of Shadows), but taking a spell that only does damage with 2-5 skill points is almost never worth it.

[willpell]

I would recommend using Grizzly and Oak Sage together instead of Spirit of Barbs and wolves.

Character theme is generally more important to me than power; I will have a Grizzly druid and an Oak Sage druid (possibly the same one, more likely not), but this character is neither of those. Though I have thought of going back to spirit wolves instead of dires; once the character is past Baal I can use a stat reset to fix his build (few if any of my characters have done this), but right now it's a bit late to try and shift gears much.


The wolves will never really scale well; once you hit hell, or even late nightmare, they'll become very squishy.

Their squishiness is normally not much of a problem since they're infinitely replaceable, but for the record I've yet to get a character into Hell or even past act 4 nightmare (I'm unsure whether I've entered it, I definitely haven't exited it).


Unfortunately, druid summoning is not as powerful as necromancer summoning

Well yeah; a necro does basically nothing but summon. Druids are also casters and meleers; they're for people who like having options and flexibility. (They're also for people who like wearing funny hats.)


If you don't have one, consider using an Act 2 Mercenary for one of its auras

That's a good idea, but unfortunately not one I'm likely to take advantage of; my Rogue has a unique bow that shoots exploding arrows, and this is simply too cool to give up.


Combat mercenaries in Normal/Hell get Prayer, which synergizes nicely with an Insight polearm runeword (Ral Tir Tal Sol).

Both Sol runes and four-socket weapons are legendarily rare by my standards; I've never managed to produce both on the same character while also being aware of the runeword formulas. I think I have managed to create a half-dozen or so runeword items grand total, out of about twenty characters at levels ranging from 2 to 50.


Both of these item suggestions, however, require that you're playing online Ladder.

I am not. At least not much; my internet connection is poor, and lag makes online play a pain, even with the advantage of being able to trade items among my characters. This Druid and the other characters I've mentioned are all single-player.


All of the runes here are relatively easy to acquire - Worldstone Keep can drop Amns, Thuls, Orts and Sols (again, if I recall correctly) and the Countess can drop everything underneath them.

I lack the patience to make repeated runs on a five-levels-deep dungeon in the hopes of grinding an item drop until it turns out the way I want it. Hence why I said I didn't want item advice (no offense intended, I know you're trying to help and appreciate it).

****

So on further thought, I feel a little silly even having to ask whether I should go to Hurricane, as in retrospect this seems like the obvious answer to my problem. My last Baal kill was a sorceress whose focus on Chain Lightning and Thunder Storm with Lightning Mastery may have helped somewhat, but most of the damage seemed to come from Meteor, since Baal doesn't move around a lot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Here's the thing... bosses destroy pets. Absolutely destroy them. They get massive multipliers against pets, which means you're gonna have to tank the bastard while your pets add damage.

Since you have nothing in Shapeshifting, the good ol' standby of Hunger won't help you either.

Quite frankly, I don't think you could have built a druid any WORSE for fighting bosses. Also, his pets will NOT be relevant in Nightmare, those wolves will be going down so fast you won't be able to keep them going.

Ravens can blind. That's... something anyways. spam them if you can and see if his lack of accuracy helps any.

Poison creeper. Sure, the damage sucks, but it's bonus damage, so anything is better than nothing.

Hurricane will certainly help, being a Cold effect it would slow him down somewhat.

Also, I've NEVER had a Paladin have mana problems. Ever. Even my Avenger didn't have mana problems, and he was spamming one of the most mana-hungry skills in the Paladin's repertoire. He was having health regen problems before he was having mana problems (since bonus elemental damage doesn't qualify for Life Steal). +Mana after every kill and Mana Steal are MUCH better for you than static mana bonuses. The first will pretty much guarantee that you will never lack mana. But if you are really worried, pick up Manald Heal (it always keeps dropping for me on Normal). Mana steal, +20% mana regen, replenish life, and bonus hit points. Not bad for a low-end unique.

I got lucky on Nightmare on my paladin and ended up with Guardian Angel. +15 to all MAX resists is f**kin' sweet.

[willpell]

Since you have nothing in Shapeshifting, the good ol' standby of Hunger won't help you either.

I thought I remembered reading that Hunger was glitched? To be on the safe side I've had my maybe-a-werewolf-maybe-a-werebear stay away from it so far; even if it works as intended, I have a hard time figuring out how "-75% damage" is a good thing no matter what else the attack does.


Ravens can blind. That's... something anyways. spam them if you can and see if his lack of accuracy helps any.

Can you blind Baal? I would have assumed he'd be immune.


Poison creeper. Sure, the damage sucks, but it's bonus damage, so anything is better than nothing.

The vine gets killed just like everything else.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I thought I remembered reading that Hunger was glitched? To be on the safe side I've had my maybe-a-werewolf-maybe-a-werebear stay away from it so far; even if it works as intended, I have a hard time figuring out how "-75% damage" is a good thing no matter what else the attack does.Penalty to damage output goes away as you level, however 100% life steal AND mana steal never gets old. Let's put it this way... how much damage do you do? Okay, that's how much damage AND mana you just healed.

Makes it a real pain to actually kill, since if his DPS is as high as the DPS coming in, you can't actually get through all his healing.

[Hubert]

Quite frankly, I don't think you could have built a druid any WORSE for fighting bosses. Also, his pets will NOT be relevant in Nightmare, those wolves will be going down so fast you won't be able to keep them going.

It has been some time since I last played DII, but IIRC a summoning druid is a viable build to finish the game in hell difficulty. It's far from a powerhouse (like hammerdins, tornado-druids, trap-sins). It's slow but safe.

Obviously, like most of the "fun" builds, it requires some optimization to be at least somewhat effective in the higher levels of difficulty. A typical build would be something like that:

Summoning skills:

Raven: 1 point as prereq.

Oak Sage: 1 point or 20 points, depending if you want to use this or Heart of Wolverine as spirit.

Summon Spirit Wolf: 20 points. Each point in this skill passively increases attack rating and armor for all pets.

Heart of Wolverine: 1 point or 20 points, depending if you want to use this or Oak Sage as spirit.

Summon Dire Wolf: 20 points. Each point in this skill passively increases the life of all pets.

Spirit of Barbs: 0 point. Useless.

Summon Grizzly: 20 points. Each point in this skill passively increases the damage of all pets.

Depending on the situation, 3 dire wolves or the grizzly will be used. I think the damage output of the wolves is higher, but the grizzly is the best tank. Typically, wolves vs. regular mobs, and grizzly vs. bosses.

Stats:

As usual:

Strength: the minimum needed for the items used.
Dexterity: the minimum needed for the items used.
Vitality: everything else.
Energy: nothing.

Items:

Similarly, a good stuff is required. As a caster, +skills are really important in order to boost all summonings. Double Spirit, Shako/Jalal, Enigma/Viper, all that stuff is good for this build. An interesting alternative for the weapon could be Witchwild String, a unique bow with 2% chances to cast lvl5 amp on strike. This allows for a more active gameplay, as the druid can still contribute to the fight. Another possibility is to put the remaining skill points in the shapeshifting tree and to go in the melee with a good poleaxe like the Reaper's Toll (elite poleaxe with 33% chance to cast decrepit on strike).

[darksolitaire]

Diablo 2 thread on the playground? :smalleek:

I can agree with what Hubert writes about summoner druid. It's one of the last characters I've beaten Hell Act 4 with. My Druid had the luxury of having access to both pre-buff gear and good melee weapon, so I used one point in Fury, Werewolf and Lycanthropy to join the battle as well. Going bear and using Shock Wave as ground control would work as well. Also, Few points in Poison Creeper and Carrion Wine for utility at later levels, as poison stops enemy health regeneration even when the damage is pitiful, and corpse removal is useful in few points.

Also, I use ATMA for muling items between characters and runeword mod for ladder runewords in single player. I was member of certain single player forum which allowed trading of items with said additions.

[-teacup]

I like to use this handy druid pet calculator (http://tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/druid_pet_calculator.html). In general, the wolves are just plain inferior to grizzly. All three wolves attacking while enraged will still do less damage than a similarly skilled grizzly. Fortunately, points in dire wolves boost the life of your grizzly. So it's not a waste.

I've never tried a wind/summoner hybrid. If you focus on hurricane (for non-physical damage) it might work.

I know that shockwave summoners (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=78403) and rangers (summoner with a bow) both work well enough as far as non-hybrid builds go. The biggest problem for druid summoners is physical immunes in hell, but that's a long way from where you are.

I think the shockwave summoner wins the safety award though. The absurd amount of life (3000+ endgame without oak) and the fact that everything other than act bosses can be stunned for 10 seconds is awesome. It's almost as safe as a necro summoner, but more reliable since you don't need corpses to resummon your critters.

[Hubert]

In general, the wolves are just plain inferior to grizzly. All three wolves attacking while enraged will still do less damage than a similarly skilled grizzly.

Interesting. I always thought dire wolves did more damage than the bear. I guess the wolves are only good to intercept more attacks when you are in the midst of a mob pack then.

[willpell]

Spirit of Barbs: 0 point. Useless.

Why for you say? Thorns is an awesome ability whether it's a Paladin aura or just gear; while my direwolves may not have been much good against Baal, they slaughtered his Minions, albeit dying frequently in the process, and I strongly suspect the damage the Minions were dealing to themselves thanks to Thorns was at least as major a factor as the damage they dealt themselves.


poison stops enemy health regeneration even when the damage is pitiful.

Hm.... strokes mustache

[Hubert]

Why for you say? Thorns is an awesome ability whether it's a Paladin aura or just gear; while my direwolves may not have been much good against Baal, they slaughtered his Minions, albeit dying frequently in the process, and I strongly suspect the damage the Minions were dealing to themselves thanks to Thorns was at least as major a factor as the damage they dealt themselves.

As previously mentioned, thorn is usually useless because the monsters have much more hp than the damage they deal. It is more usefull to increase the damage of the player or his pets than to rely on the monster killing itself.

Let us note that it is the opposite for players. A player's character will easily deal 2 or 3 times his total hp as damage. For this reason, thorn-like abilities are (IIRC) often frowned upon in PvP, especially the necromancer's curse Iron Maiden.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As previously mentioned, thorn is usually useless because the monsters have much more hp than the damage they deal. It is more usefull to increase the damage of the player or his pets than to rely on the monster killing itself.

Let us note that it is the opposite for players. A player's character will easily deal 2 or 3 times his total hp as damage. For this reason, thorn-like abilities are (IIRC) often frowned upon in PvP, especially the necromancer's curse Iron Maiden.

And Act IV just past the last checkpoint, those mobs that cast Iron Maiden are just cruel. You have to keep a sharp eye out and watch which curse they drop on you. And if it's Iron Maiden, just plain run until curse wears off. It's the one place where, on my Paladin, Cleansing is hotkeyed... I don't DARE Zeal, for fear of the curse dropping before I have a chance to cancel the bonus attacks, and while Conviction goes so well with it, when that curse pops up, hit Cleansing and run.

[Winterwind]

Unless the patches lie, Oblivion Knights don't cast Iron Maiden anymore. They removed their ability to do that in 1.13c.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Unless the patches lie, Oblivion Knights don't cast Iron Maiden anymore. They removed their ability to do that in 1.13c.

Oh? Didn't catch that in the patch notes. I'm... well, I have mixed feelings, really.

On the one hand, that was a really cheap trick, particularly if you get hit by it in the middle of a Zeal flurry. On the other hand... it certainly made the place challenging.

[Ernir]

Let us note that it is the opposite for players. A player's character will easily deal 2 or 3 times his total hp as damage. For this reason, thorn-like abilities are (IIRC) often frowned upon in PvP, especially the necromancer's curse Iron Maiden.
Really? Unless you had a way to make the other guy attack a Fallen in the Blood Moor while IM'ed or something, Thorns effects usually did a whole lot of nothing in post 1.10 PvP. There were some sharp penalties to their effectiveness when used against other players.

[willpell]

Unless the patches lie, Oblivion Knights don't cast Iron Maiden anymore. They removed their ability to do that in 1.13c.

Sad. I rather liked that idea; I mean, it's Hell, Diablo's sanctuary; it shouldn't be easy or anything.

[Winthur]

Sad. I rather liked that idea; I mean, it's Hell, Diablo's sanctuary; it shouldn't be easy or anything.

With the various auras and other debuffs the mobs inside the Sanctuary cast on you and the requirement of careful proceeding in order to not get pincered by a huge angry mob upon breaking a seal... yep, even with the IM nerf, Chaos Sanctuary on Nightmare/Hell is one of those places that made me reluctant to play Hardcore. :smalleek:

[Derjuin]

With the various auras and other debuffs the mobs inside the Sanctuary cast on you and the requirement of careful proceeding in order to not get pincered by a huge angry mob upon breaking a seal... yep, even with the IM nerf, Chaos Sanctuary on Nightmare/Hell is one of those places that made me reluctant to play Hardcore. :smalleek:

On my assassin, I actually rerolled the Chaos Sanctuary in Hell until I got the seal position that releases the Infector of Souls in the not-absolutely terrible layout. It was still obscene and scary as all hell, but doable. If I hadn't rerolled it, I'm very certain she would be permadead.

[willpell]

With the various auras and other debuffs the mobs inside the Sanctuary cast on you and the requirement of careful proceeding in order to not get pincered by a huge angry mob upon breaking a seal... yep, even with the IM nerf, Chaos Sanctuary on Nightmare/Hell is one of those places that made me reluctant to play Hardcore. :smalleek:

Well, I never do Hardcore characters (except once just to see what it looked like, and that was just a new character with like five minutes of deliberately letting a Zombie whale on me until I lost patience, killed it, and then had to go find another Zombie), so consider my statement disclaimed.

[Hubert]

Really? Unless you had a way to make the other guy attack a Fallen in the Blood Moor while IM'ed or something, Thorns effects usually did a whole lot of nothing in post 1.10 PvP. There were some sharp penalties to their effectiveness when used against other players.

The trick is to make a lot of summons, then to frequently teleport. Each time you teleport, all summons are relocated on top of the necro, so the IM'ed guy can only hit them. Even if he does not one-shot himself, the opponent will take damage each time he tries to hit the necro, and the necro is relatively safe until nearly all his summons are down.


Sad. I rather liked that idea; I mean, it's Hell, Diablo's sanctuary; it shouldn't be easy or anything.

The problem with IM is also that it does not affect the characters the same way. For ranged/mage characters (sorcress, bowazon/javazon, tornado-druid, trapsin, hammerdin,...) IM does absolutely nothing. Even better, they are happy to be IM'ed, because that means that the previous curse is replaced by IM. On the other hand, IM can destroy any melee physical build in less than 2 seconds if not played veeeery carefully.

[Traab]

A thorns paladin is what made me miss the classic d2 days before all these synergy patches and such came up. I found it frigging hilarious to have something like level 23 thorns and to watch diablo just beat himself to death whacking away at me. Of course, then the problem quickly became it seemed like any time I went thorn build every single melee character in the game turned into a gorram archer or spell caster. I go through the jungles of act 3 and suddenly im dodging 50 bazillion blow gun darts and nothing is running at me.

On that summoner build, how do you allocate points as you level up? I mean, do you just slam 20 points in a row into spirit wolves, then 20 points into dire, then 20 into grizzly? Do you alternate each level with one spirit, 1 dire, 1 grizz then repeat? I just ask because while that build does look awesome for max level progression, I wouldnt want to be gimped until im most of the way through nightmare because I have no idea how to assign the points in an order that doesnt cause me to suck.

[Hubert]

On that summoner build, how do you allocate points as you level up? I mean, do you just slam 20 points in a row into spirit wolves, then 20 points into dire, then 20 into grizzly? Do you alternate each level with one spirit, 1 dire, 1 grizz then repeat? I just ask because while that build does look awesome for max level progression, I wouldnt want to be gimped until im most of the way through nightmare because I have no idea how to assign the points in an order that doesnt cause me to suck.

I don't remember exactly in which order I put the points of my summoning druid. But I don't think it's really possible to screw up this build. The progression could look something like that (using the Shockwave build):

Level < 6: 1 point in Raven. 1 point in Werewolf and Lycanthropy for the shockwave buid. Save the remaining points for later use.

Level 6 -> 17: 1 point in Oak Sage, Werebear and Maul when available. Everything else in Summon Spirit Wolf (~10 points at level 17).

Level 18 -> 29: 1 point in Shockwave at level 24. 1 point in Heart of Wolverine. Everything else in Summon Dire Wolf (~10 points at level 29).

Level >= 30: Everything in Grizzly or alternate between Grizzly and Dire Wolf, depending on preferences. Some points in the chosen spirit if it tends to die too fast, but I think boosting the spirit should be low priority while Grizzly and Dire Wolf are not set to 20.

This progression should be comfortable at any level, and does not require to re-allocate the skill points. While you are below level 30, use your best summon (Spirit Wolf -> Dire Wolf). When Grizzly is available, use Grizzly or Dire Wolf depending on the situation and your personal preference.

Edit: Damn, this thread makes me want to play DII again. Unfortunately (or fortunately for my social life), I lost my single player characters with the crash of my laptop, and my multiplayer characters are long lost in the limbo of Battle.net...

[Traab]

Ok, I have just started up my new druid and am giving this build a shot. As I think I mentioned earlier on in the thread, my other druid was a fissure spamming room clearing monster. But then he hit act 4 nightmare and suddenly 75% of the creatures were fire immune. /sob Im not sure why my previous summon druid didnt make it very far. I likely screwed up the points. I remember having a lot of ravens but they seemed so awesome! I mean come on, each upgrade not only increases damage, it increases number of hits AND adds another raven! (Ok not every level after the first few but still) Iirc, they actually did a pretty decent job whittling away at the swarms of mobs. But the damage wasnt that awesome outside of normal. And those were 10-12 points or whatever, that werent in my wolves, making them not so hot. (This was pre respec)

[Hubert]

The ravens are mainly useful for the blind effect they apply to the enemies they hit. It can make things a little bit safer when surrounded by ranged monsters. Still, with 1 skill point and the +skills bonus it should be trivial to get the maximum number of ravens (5 at level 5). Subsequent points will only increase the number of hits (11 + level) and the pitiful damage (21-23 at level 20).

[darksolitaire]

I've been getting the Diablo-fever too. Currently my ranged enchantress is parked at Hell Act 3, I'm probing for some old demon slaying mates to join me in multiplayer.


As I think I mentioned earlier on in the thread, my other druid was a fissure spamming room clearing monster. But then he hit act 4 nightmare and suddenly 75% of the creatures were fire immune.

Do you have points in Volcano/Molten Boulder? Both deal physical damage in addition to fire damage.

[Traab]

I've been getting the Diablo-fever too. Currently my ranged enchantress is parked at Hell Act 3, I'm probing for some old demon slaying mates to join me in multiplayer.



Do you have points in Volcano/Molten Boulder? Both deal physical damage in addition to fire damage.

Yeah, like a couple of points each. Not enough to kill anything in less than an hour in nightmare. Ah well. It was fun while it lasted. As for my new druid, im currently on the quest to get the hammer from the monastary in act 1. The leveling setup listed on the last page was getting annoying up until I was finally able to hit 3 wolves. Now I have the full 5 and they are doing great at killing stuff. I mainly stay in werebear form for the extra hp and take a few fairly ineffective swings at stuff to keep busy Otherwise I let my pets handle the grunt work. Oh, and am I the only one who loves using the griswold portal run to grind out a few extra levels? You get nice loot, and a LOT of stuff to kill in a very small space, so up until you hit about 12, you are gaining a full level every time you clear it. The countess may be better for cash, but I like that one for getting a few fast levels.

[Derjuin]

Oh, and am I the only one who loves using the griswold portal run to grind out a few extra levels? You get nice loot, and a LOT of stuff to kill in a very small space, so up until you hit about 12, you are gaining a full level every time you clear it. The countess may be better for cash, but I like that one for getting a few fast levels.

Tristram runs are quite popular on Hardcore mode, and sometimes there's even a public game going for them (which quickly attracts a troll with a level 80+ amazon :smallsigh:).

My new assassin's in Act 3 now, I just switched from martial arts to traps (because Duriel and the pygmy shamans can nearly kill me) and wow - the marshes usually take me FOREVER to get through, but this time it was only like...maybe 30 minutes total? I blame Burst of Speed and stamina potions :smallamused:

[Traab]

Tristram runs are quite popular on Hardcore mode, and sometimes there's even a public game going for them (which quickly attracts a troll with a level 80+ amazon :smallsigh:).

My new assassin's in Act 3 now, I just switched from martial arts to traps (because Duriel and the pygmy shamans can nearly kill me) and wow - the marshes usually take me FOREVER to get through, but this time it was only like...maybe 30 minutes total? I blame Burst of Speed and stamina potions :smallamused:

I hate those effing shaman. Especially that boss shaman and his 4 minions all spamming ultra high damage flamethrowers at you.

[Weezer]

So, my (however short lived) enjoyment of Diablo III, combined with this thread has prompted me to pick up Diablo II. Any tips/hints for someone who is just starting out?

[Winthur]

So, my (however short lived) enjoyment of Diablo III, combined with this thread has prompted me to pick up Diablo II. Any tips/hints for someone who is just starting out?

1: Unless you are really into fightin' and winnin' or played games like Diablo a lot or any other reasons, I don't recommend a physical character like the Barbarian for starters; sure, a Barbarian is really simple to handle in the early levels and has enough bulk to win the entire game by himself; but the thing about classes like Amazon or Barbarian is that they usually depend on finding a good weapon. A Sorceress, for instance, mostly depends on having mana, for instance, plus she's ranged, and spells can't miss (fighting classes need a lot of stats: Strength to carry their items, Dexterity to hit people and Vitality to survive; casters can go with just Vitality) So I think that casters might be easier, particularly the Summoner Necromancer or Lightning or Hybrid Sorceress.
2: Look up some builds, this game isn't easy and will punish you if you don't know what you're doing. Oddball builds with no real plan, even if they get past Normal (most of them do) tend to get really disappointing in Nightmare, if not unplayable.
Actually, if you want easy starter characters, those should work (look for names like that in Google on websites like diablo.incgamers)
Amazon: "Fishyzon" ; Lightning Javelin Amazon ("Javazon")
Assassin: "Kicksin" or "Phoenix Strike" (melee build), "Trapsin" (basically a caster with some crowd control)
Barbarian: That's a toughie. Basically you should go with Double Swing through Normal (leveling it up to 9, it costs no mana this way and provides decent clearing speed) and follow either Concentration Barb (a really tanky barb that pretty much can't die, but has a slow clearing speed), Frenzy Barb (a really fast-paced barb that wields two weapons) or my personal favourite Berserker Barb (deals tons of magic damage, and relies on his crowd control effects for defense)
Druid: Summoner-Shockwave, Fire Claws Werebear, Fury Werewolf or Cold Elementalist are all pretty cool.
Paladin: Um, everything. "Hammerdin" for cookie-cutter caster, "Tesladin" for melee build. ("Zealot", as in, the Zeal+Fanaticism Paladin is cool, I just find him item-reliant) Paladins are honestly the most versatile class and very often picked for many purposes.
Sorceress: Lightning Sorceress or Meteorb (or other Hybrid variations, like Blizzballer). Either is fast and mobile; Sorceress is a player's favorite for running bosses and makes for a fine starting character.
Necromancer: Summoner Necromancer is the safest possible build in this game. You can beat the game with him naked and not die.

The above were picked mostly because they are rather self-reliant and don't usually encounter roadblocks like "I don't do any damage and need to grind for hours for a new weapon" or "crap, Hell difficulty is immune to my entire damage".

3: If you are not playing on Battle.net (and honestly, unless you have friends there, you will be hard-pressed to: bots have contaminated the entire place), enjoy commands such as /players 1-8 (that set up the difficulty of the monsters, increasing XP rewards from them; /players 8 causes you to fight monsters on the level they'd be in if there were 8 players on the game server).
4: Don't feel afraid or intimidated - the game is fun and does allow for some leeway especially with the newest patches that allow you to reset your character stats. You get three guaranteed resets (Act 1: Akara's 1st quest, Den of Evil), the builds I've written above are just to help you ease yourself and find something cool.
5: Have fun.

[willpell]

I hate those effing shaman. Especially that boss shaman and his 4 minions all spamming ultra high damage flamethrowers at you.

Completely agree, but the Venom Lords of act 4 are worse, especially when you open a Diablo seal and get about ten of them with Extra Fast plus the Infector of Souls. I fear that fight more than I do Diablo himself.

What's nasty about the boss-shaman (I assume you mean Witch Doctor Endigu or whatever his name is, though of course there are others that spawn randomly) is that he's in the Flayer Dungeon level 3, which IMO is the most aggravating place in the entire game. Traps everywhere, blind passages sealed off with grates, and no monsters for the first half of your wandering around, then all of a sudden Endigu gets dumped on you and you're getting inferno-breathed from five directions. Gaaaaah.

[willpell]

One piece of advice to a new player: Save every Gem, Jewel and Rune you find. Never ever sell these. When you're starting to get bored with the main game, read up on Horadric Cube recipies, runewords and item crafting. It can take a long time to learn what options exist, and even longer to take advantage of them (it sucks to have all the runes you need for a runeword and to have to grind for hours trying to obtain a normal nonmagic item with the right number of sockets so you can actually make the thing), but it's definitely the part of the game that will hold your interest (or keep you obsessed) once the experience of slaughtering crowds of mobs grows old.

Note that a number of quest rewards are pretty much wasted at the early stage when you get them; it's often advisable to save them to go back to later in the game. Charsi's Imbue is the ur-example; nothing you own in act 1 will be relevant in act 5, save maybe your Belt if you have absolutely no hope of ever wearing a Plated Belt and are not lucky enough to get a Demonhide Sash. Wait until at least the tail end of Normal to get the best possible item to Imbue, and that's assuming you don't wait until Nightmare to get an Exceptional (or early Elite) drop, then go back to Normal to collect your unused quest reward. (Nota bene: switching difficulty levels will blank your map, so do it between acts when you have nothing outside of towns to go back to.) The same is true of Larzuk adding sockets in act 5, but for that one I really recommend you do a lot of reading to find out how it works and what you can do with it, as it's a very unique option and you ground yourself through a lot of game before you got it, so it's a shame to let it go to waste.


1: Unless you are really into fightin' and winnin' or played games like Diablo a lot or any other reasons, I don't recommend a physical character like the Barbarian for starters; sure, a Barbarian is really simple to handle in the early levels and has enough bulk to win the entire game by himself; but the thing about classes like Amazon or Barbarian is that they usually depend on finding a good weapon.

This, definitely. If your character is all about charging right into the middle of the mobs or up into the boss's face, you will die a lot - and you will be completely useless without your weapon, so it will be difficult getting back your corpse. A Sorceress or Necromancer on the other hand can pretty much park a Town Portal next to the boss and pop out of it every time they die in order to resume blasting (just don't forget to reopen the portal behind you every time, and if you're in Nightmare or Hell, make sure that you've leveled up recently before doing this so that you don't waste a bunch of XP). If you can hurt the boss faster than he can regenerate, then it doesn't matter how often you die (assuming you're not Hardcore), your victory will be inevitable becuase you can't permanently die and he can. Just keep in mind that if you equip any items (including by picking them up and having them auto-equip) after you die, they'll be attached to your secondary corpses, and you have to collect those manually or the items on them are lost forever. Only your primary corpse will show up in town if you quit and restart because the situation is hopeless.

The corollary to all this advice is that the caster classes have atrociously poor Strength, so they can't equip most of the armor you'll find - of particular relevance is the potion belt, since the only one with 4 rows that isn't Exceptional (and very few Exceptional items spawn before Nightmare) is the Plated Belt, which mandates a strength of 60. Given how desperately you need storage space for all the items you find in the game, being restricted to a Heavy Belt or even a Sash because you can't wear a full-size belt is very painful; it means your supply of quick-drinkable potions will be very limited, so while you're not normally in too much danger of dying, the occasional "oops" where something gets you unexpectedly can be very hard to fix in a hurry. Plus it kinda sucks when you get an item-drop of some amazingly cool unique armor or something, and you have to just sell it for gold because you'll never meet its equipping prereqs.

The Barbarian remains probably my favorite class, though the most frustrating to play, because he can equip everything, can carry two weapons even if they're 2-H swords (though not 2-H axes, oddly), and he gets Find Item. The item game is my favorite part of D2, and the barb plays it better than anybody. However playing him in Nightmare mode or even against Diablo and Baal is an extercise in frustration.


Frenzy Barb (a really fast-paced barb that wields two weapons)

Personally, I recommend against this one; he was my very first character, but I found him difficult to play because Frenzy made him so fast that I was wiggling all over the screen trying to find enemies to hit; one misclick and suddenly you're half a screen away. It's not fun to be as slow-moving as a heavily-armored character defaults to, so you want some extra run-walk speed, but Frenzy is way too much of a good thing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another suggestion to players: Don't rely on just one type of damage. While this isn't too bad in Normal, when you hit Nightmare and especially Hell difficulties... you WILL run into mobs immune to one or even two things.

This is the biggest problems with builds like the Tesladin (Zeal + Lightning Aura)... while it has amazing damage output, 90% of that is lightning damage. If you run into a Lightning Immune mob, your damage output suddenly plummets.

This is a particular concern for the new player's Sorcerer. The tendency, particularly for those who play WoW, is to go down one tech tree to get more cool stuff. Synergies only further encourage you to do so. But if you only blast in one elemental flavor, you're not going to do anything to mobs immune to that flavor. This happened to me on my Sorceress whom went exclusively Cold. Frozen Orb was an insanely awesome skill, I wondered why I would ever need another attack spell... then I hit Act V and cold immune mobs...

The Avenger Build is one I suggest for new players who want to be a Paladin. The basic concept is Vengance (Physical, Lightning, Cold, and Fire damage), and Conviction (aura which reduces opponent resistances and can break immunities). You'll want a mana steal and some mana gain after kill toys to keep yourself going (this is the single most mana draining build in the game, and the LAST thing you want to put character points into is your Magic score), but that's not too bad.

You might not always do a LOT of damage, but you'll ALWAYS do at least SOME damage.

[Traab]

Saving every gem and such sounds good on paper, but in reality it just isnt feasible. My druid has just ended act 1 and already has half his stash full of gems. Yeah I know, once I get the cube ill be able to condense them, but there just isnt a lot of room in your stash for all of that. Especially for me personally. I dont know what everyone else does, but I keep a full 12 rejuv potions in my stash for boss fights on most of my guys. Some dont really need it, but a lot do. My pet classes are about the only ones that dont, because without a lot of meat shields, you are going to get whacked a time or two and need some healing. Or extra mana if you have been spamming your high cost spells. Add in stuff like say, saving that 4 socket shield until I have enough diamonds or the tal ral ort or whatever to make it worth using, and I run out quick.

[Winthur]

This is the biggest problems with builds like the Tesladin (Zeal + Lightning Aura)... while it has amazing damage output, 90% of that is lightning damage. If you run into a Lightning Immune mob, your damage output suddenly plummets.


Lightning immunes seem to be the rarest in the game which is why I recommended both Lightning Sorcie and Tesladin. In the end, Tesladin still doesn't get screwed over as much as an underequipped pure Zealot.


The corollary to all this advice is that the caster classes have atrociously poor Strength, so they can't equip most of the armor you'll find - of particular relevance is the potion belt, since the only one with 4 rows that isn't Exceptional (and very few Exceptional items spawn before Nightmare) is the Plated Belt, which mandates a strength of 60. Given how desperately you need storage space for all the items you find in the game, being restricted to a Heavy Belt or even a Sash because you can't wear a full-size belt is very painful; it means your supply of quick-drinkable potions will be very limited, so while you're not normally in too much danger of dying, the occasional "oops" where something gets you unexpectedly can be very hard to fix in a hurry. Plus it kinda sucks when you get an item-drop of some amazingly cool unique armor or something, and you have to just sell it for gold because you'll never meet its equipping prereqs.

On most characters, I tend to max out Strength until 30 early on (for Breast Plates) and then towards 60 for Plated Belts. I find that in the early game a Breast Plate, preferrably two-socketed with the TalEth runeword is all you need for a caster. And honestly, you don't need a ton of stats, proper footwork tends to take care of that at least early on.

Casters are pretty much great because their spells dont have an Attack Rating meaning that if you can aim (which is not very hard in Diablo at all) then you can take down anything not immune to your damage. Plus

Another thing you might want to consider is the ATMA program for stashing all the items if you are so inclined. It pretty much lets you save items on the computer so you can keep everything you want and juggle items between characters pretty easily. Plus it doesn't double as a trainer.

Another thing I do before getting the Horadric Cube is that I stock up on Rejuvenation Potions and then mix them all in the item (3 Rejuv Potions = 1 Full Rejuv Potion). Full Rejuv Potion instantly restores all your mana and health, and thus it tends to be useful particularly in boss fights or sticky situations.

Speaking of boss fights, certain ones can be really hard, but I'll put them in Spoiler, some of those are a bit in-depth so you might not want to read them now, merely if you get stuck.

Duriel - to deal with the bug that is the final boss of Act 2, preparations such as Thawing Potions and Full Rejuvenation potions are recommended. Try getting a Bone Shield of Deflecting - around 60 Dexterity and this shield will let you block most of Duriel's attacks. If you're a ranged character, kite him. If melee, make sure to have lots of red, blue and purple potions and swing away, fugu fish, swing away!
Mephisto - is a pushover, though a little lightning resistance helps. There's a Moat Trick you can exploit on ranged characters that makes him a total letdown (basically use the river of blood on the level to separate yourself and Mephisto and fire at him)
Diablo - if you are an elemental caster, a wand with charges of the Lower Resist curse can be useful. Otherwise, if you are tanking him, stand directly under him, like, give him the hug of his life, because his lightning spark attack is very strong but also has a minimum range. Full Rejuvenation potions, fire and lightning resistances are helpful as usual.
Baal - I never had a problem with him, his lackey Lister The Tormentor with his friends are much more powerful. Hopefully you have a high damage attack and some patience because sometimes he'll remind you of Izual.


Saving every gem and such sounds good on paper, but in reality it just isnt feasible. My druid has just ended act 1 and already has half his stash full of gems. Yeah I know, once I get the cube ill be able to condense them, but there just isnt a lot of room in your stash for all of that. Especially for me personally. I dont know what everyone else does, but I keep a full 12 rejuv potions in my stash for boss fights on most of my guys. Some dont really need it, but a lot do. My pet classes are about the only ones that dont, because without a lot of meat shields, you are going to get whacked a time or two and need some healing. Or extra mana if you have been spamming your high cost spells. Add in stuff like say, saving that 4 socket shield until I have enough diamonds or the tal ral ort or whatever to make it worth using, and I run out quick.

In Act 1 there really doesn't seem to be anything worth stashing other than those gems so that's why I go Hamtaro on them. I also stash rejuv potions for cubing later. If it becomes bothersome rush the Horadric Cube quest. And I don't know where in Normal Act 1 will you find a 3-4 socket shield that you will want to keep with you for a runeword.

If it's a problem, use the ATMA program for stashing gems. If you consider that cheating, then in later acts chipped gems become much rarer as drops. Or, you know, use your gems to actually socket your items. Early Topazes can go inside armor. Early Sapphires/Rubies can give your character mana or life (preferrably on headgear). Emeralds are cool on weapons, et cetera.

[Hubert]

Advices for a new player:

* Start with a character that is not too item-dependent. The easiest character to start with IMHO is the necromancer summoner. Lots of pets to tank for you, and lots of curses to debuff the monsters depending on the threat. The sorceress can also be good with a limited stuff, but you will die more often, and you will have problems when reaching hell difficulty due to the immunities of the monsters. Other options are: javazon (amazon using Lightning Strike), trapsin (assassin using lightning traps) or summoner druid.

* More item-dependent builds are easier to manage when a previous character has already farmed some good items for them.

* Normal difficulty and the beginning of nightmare are quite forgiving, allowing you to experiment with the character build. After that (especially in hell), a viable character needs a carefully planned build exploiting the synergies between the different skills. A "good" build is often very extreme: 20 points in the main attack skills, 20 points in all the synergies of the attack skills, 1 point in some utility skills and 0 in the rest. On the other hand, the not-too-item-dependent characters mentioned above can finish hell without OMG-ultra-rare items. It will take some time, but it's doable.

* Some low level rune words are very helpful:
- Insight on a polearm, to remove all mana problems thanks to the meditation aura.
- Rhyme on a shield, for the nice +25 to all resists, and the invaluable "cannot be frozen".
- Spirit on a sword or shield. One of the better rune words of the game, with a very nice +2 to all skills, + vitality, + mana and some other nice bonuses.

* The act 2 mercenary is your friend. With some decent stuff, he can tank and even deal some damages. More importantly, he has some nice auras: Prayer ("combat" in in normal and hell), Holy Freeze ("defense" in nightmare) and Might ("offense" in nightmare). Finally, he can carry for you the often-used Insight runeword. Other mercenaries are also useful, but usually less powerful.

Edit: If you are playing solo, an interesting plugin exists: PlugY (http://plugy.free.fr/fr/index.html) (Link on Phrozen Keep (http://phrozenkeep.hugelaser.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=133&t=56527)). This plugin is compatible with LoD v1.13c, and provides many features like:
- A huge storage space that allows storing thousands of items, shared for all characters.
- Enables the ladder-only runewords.
- World event and uber quest for single player characters.
- Displays more stats for the characters (e.g. %MF).

[Derjuin]

Another gaggle of tips:

If you decide to try Hardcore mode, realize that you most likely will die and lose more than one character. There's no way (without cheating) to bring a Hardcore character back after they die. If you decide to play Single Player, you are graced with no Battlenet lag, which makes Hardcore on SP a little easier. Also no CANNOT JOIN GAME errors which are a pain in the rear.

While playing, try to balance survival with damage output. While it's sort of true for some characters that the best defense is a strong offense, for others you'll need to invest a little in defensive skills. Every character should invest in hit points, resistances, damage reduction and faster hit recovery; however, none of them are strictly needed unless you are melee and on higher difficulties. It's entirely possible to play a Necromancer without any gear at all, or a kamikaze sorceress with all items contributing to damage or mana pool.

Lessee...uhm...

Battlenet has a ton of bots, both spam and automated character types. They mostly concentrate in softcore Ladder, in my experience.

People on Battlenet tend towards FYGM, but there are still decent players around. As long as you work towards the same goal, though, almost everyone is cooperative. Also be warned that loot in Diablo 2 is not as it is in Diablo 3 - everyone sees the same items and it's a race to pick them up first.

If you play Hardcore on battlenet, get used to password-protecting your games. Password-protected games don't show up on the random games list, and so are much less often antagonized by player-killers. Because of the way the Hostile system works, anyone over level 9 on hardcore mode is player-killer bait by higher level, better geared players. However, as long as you are in town, you can't be killed by a hostile player. It's childish, yeah, and sort of tends to make Hardcore on battlenet lonely, but you kind of get used to it.

There's more to playing Hardcore, but I think that covers it for basics (if you're even interested :smalltongue:).

[Traab]

And I don't know where in Normal Act 1 will you find a 3-4 socket shield that you will want to keep with you for a runeword.


Heh, you dont, at that point I was just talking about general things that take up lots of stash space for me. Its not just the gems runes and rejuvs, sometimes I find an awesome bit of gear that I want to hang onto for whatever reason. Say its an awesome weapon for my barb, im just a little too low on dex to equip it and need to wait a level or two, or an item with a lot of sockets I can work with, I just need to get the right gems/runes first. That sort of thing.

[willpell]

Today I played my second-highest-level Druid, not the one I was talking about before but a different one, who had previously been awkwardly alternating between Werewolf and Molten Boulder or Fissure. He'd previously ignored the skill Volcano, but I finally decided to take it after getting the unique Gnarled Staff which is just absurdly good for casters (especially Sorceress, but c'est la Vie). So I saw this skill for the first time, and good God does it ever make a mess of the screen. I particularly like that you can create a volcano on a wooden bridge over a river.


I dont know what everyone else does, but I keep a full 12 rejuv potions in my stash for boss fights on most of my guys.

I also save every rejuve potion, but I don't advise others to do so, as it's more trouble than it's worth. But gems and runes are a whole other ballgame. They only take up 1 space each, so you can afford to save them. Then, when you get items that are bigger than that which you want to runeword or something, you can deal with them right away.


And honestly, you don't need a ton of stats, proper footwork tends to take care of that at least early on.

Assuming by "footwork" you mean stuff like running away or finding safe places to stand, that's the last thing I ever want to have to do. I like being able to move naturally through the game; getting my melee characters into Nightmare and having to skirmish a lot because they can't survive a stand-up fight is insanely annoying. Every character I have, even if they're a caster, I'm going to be clicking Attack with them sometimes (because it's the same button as "move" and I'm very worried about things going wrong if I use a different function in that button for very long; my Sorceress does cast Chain Lightning instead of Attacking, but I found out that having my Druid do so with Molten Boulder or Arctic Blast was pure suicide because sometimes he'd click on an enemy and cast these slow spells when he needed to be running for his life). I do think a skirmishy playstyle is in-flavor for the Amazon, who coincidentally is my least favorite character to play, but otherwise I want the characters to either be in the thick of battle or commanding minions from afar, and I don't want either to have to do much moving around during a fight.


Another thing you might want to consider is the ATMA program for stashing all the items if you are so inclined. It pretty much lets you save items on the computer so you can keep everything you want and juggle items between characters pretty easily. Plus it doesn't double as a trainer.

I want to know about this thing very badly.


Baal - I never had a problem with him, his lackey Lister The Tormentor with his friends are much more powerful. Hopefully you have a high damage attack and some patience because sometimes he'll remind you of Izual.

If you're giving advice on Baal, you really ought to mention the fact that he spawns clones of himself. If you attack the wrong Baal you'll just be wasting your time. Try to watch how much damage you're dealing; if Baal seems to be going down easy, he's probably the clone. If you see the clone die, listen for Baal to say "My brothers will not have died in vain"; that'll mean he's made another clone. If you know there's only one Baal you can attack him with confidence, but he teleports so it's pretty easy for him to get away. Also watch out for the tentacles he likes to spawn.


If it becomes bothersome rush the Horadric Cube quest.

No "if" about it. No matter who you are, there's really no reason not do the Act 2 quests out of order - first get the Horadric Cube, then kill Radament, then get the Amulet of the Viper, and then go through the Sanctuary, and only then go get the Staff of Kings. There's really no need to have it clogging up your inventory (or have to deal with the insanely-annoying-to-melee Coldworm the Burrower fight) until you're into the Canyon of the Magi and ready to finish the act.


People on Battlenet tend towards FYGM

I assume I know what the FY stands for, but what's the GM?

[Derjuin]

I assume I know what the FY stands for, but what's the GM?

"Got Mine", basically self-importance above altruism. People rarely give items away, and when they do it's only because it's a common item and they either just found it, or were going to trash it anyway because it doesn't vendor well.

[Winthur]

Today I played my second-highest-level Druid, not the one I was talking about before but a different one, who had previously been awkwardly alternating between Werewolf and Molten Boulder or Fissure. He'd previously ignored the skill Volcano, but I finally decided to take it after getting the unique Gnarled Staff which is just absurdly good for casters (especially Sorceress, but c'est la Vie). So I saw this skill for the first time, and good God does it ever make a mess of the screen. I particularly like that you can create a volcano on a wooden bridge over a river.

Why would you alternate between Werewolf and fire skills? You could just go Werebear with Fire Claws, having more HP and stuff, and also Shockwave for crowd control, while using fire skills as synergy to Fire Claws. Plus, that's a fact that bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.



I also save every rejuve potion, but I don't advise others to do so, as it's more trouble than it's worth. But gems and runes are a whole other ballgame. They only take up 1 space each, so you can afford to save them. Then, when you get items that are bigger than that which you want to runeword or something, you can deal with them right away.

I save every rejuv potion because full rejuv potions are da bomb, can save you in really bad situations especially. Until I get Horadric Cube I never have any issues with space in backpack, ATMA or not.





Assuming by "footwork" you mean stuff like running away or finding safe places to stand, that's the last thing I ever want to have to do. I like being able to move naturally through the game; getting my melee characters into Nightmare and having to skirmish a lot because they can't survive a stand-up fight is insanely annoying. Every character I have, even if they're a caster, I'm going to be clicking Attack with them sometimes (because it's the same button as "move" and I'm very worried about things going wrong if I use a different function in that button for very long; my Sorceress does cast Chain Lightning instead of Attacking, but I found out that having my Druid do so with Molten Boulder or Arctic Blast was pure suicide because sometimes he'd click on an enemy and cast these slow spells when he needed to be running for his life). I do think a skirmishy playstyle is in-flavor for the Amazon, who coincidentally is my least favorite character to play, but otherwise I want the characters to either be in the thick of battle or commanding minions from afar, and I don't want either to have to do much moving around during a fight.

I guess we come from different backgrounds and that you wouldn't enjoy playing the original Diablo, where playing Warrior (my favourite class exactly because of the necessary positioning skills) or Rogue relied on you pulling that kind of positioning off (Warrior was actually a class for masochists lol). Dunno, the game is just more fun for me this way, and CC skills on characters like Barbarian give me even more options in that regard. I like separating tough mobs from each other and dealing with them using untwinked gear. I guess to each his own.



I want to know about this thing very badly.
Here. (http://atma.incgamers.com/) It also allows for easy muling between characters and for muling all the items you think are cool but can't keep them in your character's stash and they're not useful for him/he can't use them yet. Other cool stuff in this thread (http://diablo.incgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?760286-ATMA-GoMule-RWM-etc-Help-Thread), including a mod that lets you use Ladder Battle.net runewords in Single Player.


If you're giving advice on Baal, you really ought to mention the fact that he spawns clones of himself. If you attack the wrong Baal you'll just be wasting your time. Try to watch how much damage you're dealing; if Baal seems to be going down easy, he's probably the clone. If you see the clone die, listen for Baal to say "My brothers will not have died in vain"; that'll mean he's made another clone. If you know there's only one Baal you can attack him with confidence, but he teleports so it's pretty easy for him to get away. Also watch out for the tentacles he likes to spawn.

Yeah I guess, I usually just fall asleep in this fight so I didn't pay attention to those facts.

[Traab]

If I were to make myself a chain lightning sorc, what secondary skill should I pick for nightmare/hell immunity issues, and when should I put points into those skills?

[Winthur]

If I were to make myself a chain lightning sorc, what secondary skill should I pick for nightmare/hell immunity issues, and when should I put points into those skills?

Unless you have the really expensive Infinity runeword for a pike on your mercenary, you will have to either
1) park some monsters and forget about ever killing them
2) stick to running bosses for equipment for your other toons
3) make a dual element Sorc
4) team up with a buddy who deals other damage than lightning :smalltongue:

Point nr 1 is viable unless you are a fullclearer, there aren't as much lightning immunes in hell, there will just be some areas you will have to avoid or try breezing through.

Lightning Sorcs doesn't strike me as a type for dual-element (usually it's Cold/Fire mixes like Meteor +Frozen Orb or Orb+Fireball or Blizzard+Fireball), Chain Lightning really needs its synergies to pack a punch.

I'd say that if you actually want to do it then probably Frozen Orb. Frozen Orb has a lot of base damage and doesn't have much in terms of synergy (a pitiful +2% scaling with Frost Bolt). Put a few points in it, a single one in Cold Mastery, and keep adding points to FO as necessary (around 10 at least, for sure).

[Traab]

Damn, chain lightning sorc is really that limiting? Its so freaking FUN! zapzapzapzapzapzap! Woot! Everything is dead! Oh sure, mephisto is going to suck, but ah well, thats why I have a staff. ill just keep smacking him in his ugly face till he dies from it. Shouldnt take much more than 90 or 120 thousand swats.

[Winthur]

Damn, chain lightning sorc is really that limiting? Its so freaking FUN! zapzapzapzapzapzap! Woot! Everything is dead! Oh sure, mephisto is going to suck, but ah well, thats why I have a staff. ill just keep smacking him in his ugly face till he dies from it. Shouldnt take much more than 90 or 120 thousand swats.

Static Field and a wand with charges of Lower Resist goes a long way. :3

Also, it's not the chain lightning sorc that is limiting, it's the Hell difficulty.

[Traab]

Static Field and a wand with charges of Lower Resist goes a long way. :3

Also, it's not the chain lightning sorc that is limiting, it's the Hell difficulty.

What I meant was, you make it sound like lightning is so synergy intensive that I cant do a decent split spec and handle hell runs for those vile bastard lightning immune fellas.

Also, heh, I was just now running the bane of all summon specs, maggot lair. It took me 1 and a half floors before I remembered my helm also added 3 to molten boulder. After that I flew through the damn place. Forget werebear, in tight spaces, stay human and roll burning boulders down the hall. Just had to watch out for huge amounts of damage from those scarabs. God I hate that lightning effect they have when hit. Especially when you are hitting a LOT of them at once.

[Winthur]

What I meant was, you make it sound like lightning is so synergy intensive that I cant do a decent split spec and handle hell runs for those vile bastard lightning immune fellas.

Well, you can, I guess what I meant was that Chain Lightning takes a while to get rolling and that you can't really make Lightning a viable secondary spec.

So just level up Frozen Orb a bit and go something like CL/FO. Hopefully you get +skills items.

Alternately, reach Hell with Lightning Sorceress and respec once you start having trouble.

[willpell]

Why would you alternate between Werewolf and fire skills?

It's a very badly constructed character; I didn't know what I was doing when I made it. But he was like level 23 when I started playing again this time, so I'm not just going to ditch him; until he reaches Nightmare and can get an Akara respec (they didn't exist when he started, and even if they had I wouldn't have known to save it for when I needed it), I just have to suffer.


I save every rejuv potion because full rejuv potions are da bomb, can save you in really bad situations especially. Until I get Horadric Cube I never have any issues with space in backpack, ATMA or not.

The first part is true for sure, but the second...nearly every character I get ends up with their inventory clogged with charms that are too useful to dispose of, eating up about half of the free space in the backpack. I also have every character carry the Horadric Cube, two Tomes, a stack of Keys, a Flawless (if possible) Gem for Gem Shrines, and possibly some rings and amulets of Something Resist for problem fights. Combine that with all the jewels, gems and runes that have ever dropped, and as many Rejuves or Super Heals (god DAMN Blizzard for not letting you buy them even in Nightmare) as I can manage, most of my level 30+ characters have between 8 and 20 spaces at a time between Cube and backpack. And it's been very hard for me to let go of my desire to pick up every item, at least to sell it; I've gradually figured out rules of thumb like "armor sells for a lot, Claws don't", but I still err on the side of grabbing things that are even worth a few hundred gold, and Town Portaling about every three minutes to dispose of the crap.


Just had to watch out for huge amounts of damage from those scarabs. God I hate that lightning effect they have when hit. Especially when you are hitting a LOT of them at once.

This, definitely. A good reason for Lightning Resist gear, those guys.

[Hubert]

If you're giving advice on Baal, you really ought to mention the fact that he spawns clones of himself. If you attack the wrong Baal you'll just be wasting your time. Try to watch how much damage you're dealing; if Baal seems to be going down easy, he's probably the clone. If you see the clone die, listen for Baal to say "My brothers will not have died in vain"; that'll mean he's made another clone. If you know there's only one Baal you can attack him with confidence, but he teleports so it's pretty easy for him to get away. Also watch out for the tentacles he likes to spawn.

Quick tip: there is a slight visual difference between Baal and his clone. The name of the fake Baal aligns perfectly with the "Demon" written below. For the real one, the name has a small offset to the left.

http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/images/6/68/Mon-baal-names.jpg


The first part is true for sure, but the second...nearly every character I get ends up with their inventory clogged with charms that are too useful to dispose of, eating up about half of the free space in the backpack. I also have every character carry the Horadric Cube, two Tomes, a stack of Keys, a Flawless (if possible) Gem for Gem Shrines, and possibly some rings and amulets of Something Resist for problem fights. Combine that with all the jewels, gems and runes that have ever dropped, and as many Rejuves or Super Heals (god DAMN Blizzard for not letting you buy them even in Nightmare) as I can manage, most of my level 30+ characters have between 8 and 20 spaces at a time between Cube and backpack. And it's been very hard for me to let go of my desire to pick up every item, at least to sell it; I've gradually figured out rules of thumb like "armor sells for a lot, Claws don't", but I still err on the side of grabbing things that are even worth a few hundred gold, and Town Portaling about every three minutes to dispose of the crap.

Personally, I only kept a tome of identification scrolls in the inventory. I put my tp scrolls directly into the potion belt. It's much faster to access that way, and this can be a life-saver when surrounded by monsters.

Grabbing item just to sell them seems not worth the extra trips to town. You should have plenty of gold anyway, and not much to do with it (except resurrecting the merc and repairing the stuff). If you really want to make quick money, the best items to sell are the wands and staves with +skills. These can have the highest price to inventory spaces ratio.

Concerning the jewels gems, I don't remember them being that useful. I only used perfect topazes for the MF. What other utilities do you have for them?

Edit: Oops, mixed up jewels and gems.

[tyckspoon]

Concerning the jewels, I don't remember them being that useful. I only used perfect topazes for the MF. What other utilities do you have for them?

Perfect and chipped gems have uses in some crafting recipes, as well as being useful for putting together twink gear to quick-start your new characters. Jewels- the 'gems' that carry random affix/suffixes- let you potentially socket in weird combinations of things that you can't get from normal gems/runes, as well as being used to make Crafted items. Worth hanging onto a few, although if you're hoarding all of your gems you probably just need to learn to let go- unless you're in a multiplayer game and can trade them to somebody who wants to do a lot of crafting you generally just want Diamonds (Resists in shields) and Topazes (Magic Find) and can leave or vendor almost everything else.

[willpell]

Quick tip: there is a slight visual difference between Baal and his clone. The name of the fake Baal aligns perfectly with the "Demon" written below. For the real one, the name has a small offset to the left.

Yeah, maybe if you have a much better screen or sit closer to it than you probably should. Me, I'll never be able to see such a slight difference during actual play.


Personally, I only kept a tome of identification scrolls in the inventory. I put my tp scrolls directly into the potion belt. It's much faster to access that way, and this can be a life-saver when surrounded by monsters.

I do tend to die a lot, but I don't think your method would help me. Plus it would sharply limit the number of TP scrolls carried at one time, and I'm too absent-minded to be good about bying them as fast as they deplete, so it's really necessary for me to have a full supply. Identifies I don't use at all in Classic on the rare occasions I still play it (except prior to finding Deckard Cain, but I always do that as fast as possible), but in Expansion they're useful for turning on Charms as soon as they drop. Dubiously worth two inventory slots, but the two tomes line up nicely with the Cube and it lets me pick up Identify scrolls, eventually turning a tiny profit when I sell a tome of 20 for 500, buy an almost-empty one for less, and continue collecting them during play. (I'm really good at these kinds of incremental resource management puzzles, and am sad that D2 doesn't reward such dilligence very well.)


Grabbing item just to sell them seems not worth the extra trips to town. You should have plenty of gold anyway, and not much to do with it (except resurrecting the merc and repairing the stuff).

Gold is a safety net. It is indeed very necessary for rezing the merc, who often dies so that I don't have to, and it can be handy being able to buy certain unusual items the moment they show up in stores. I used to hit the gold cap a lot, but since I stopped collecting everything and made it almost everything instead, that hasn't happened once. And at least once my level 50 Amazon died so many times that she no longer had the 18K needed to res her merc, and I thought I'd lost my highest-level character forever (since she'd lost all her gear among multiple corpses while I was trying to retrieve the original). Needless to say she's been especially greedy ever since.

But I do agree that there isn't enough to do with gold, and I really wish instead of the deeply useless piles of random crappy weapons that are available through Trade and Gamble, they would let you just buy gems, runes, rejuve potions, and super heals. My life would be SO much easier if those were purchaseable on-demand, instead of having to grind through thousands of enemies hoping to get the right drop.


Concerning the jewels gems, I don't remember them being that useful. I only used perfect topazes for the MF. What other utilities do you have for them?

Mostly I just like to turn my weapons and armor funny colors. But you also use gems (mostly Perfects, which take the equivalent of 81 chips to construct, though obviously you can get shortcuts with higher-grade gems and Gem Shrines) in Crafting and other HC recipies. And I'm the kind of player who enjoys throwing together some ingredients and seeing a random item spit out even if it's not incredibly good, as long as I'm capable of using it.

If the game were designed to cater to me, it would have a LOT more HC and crafting recipies, and a lot fewer worthless items that you can just buy, while the ones that are really worth having would be possible to get on demand. It would also have much less difficult enemies, and most importantly would require less wandering around aimlessly and running from place to place - instead of the areas being randomly generated and mostly devoid of anything worthwhile, I'd make it much more Metroidvania-esque, where the main path was always easy to find and you'd only ever go off into side areas if you actually wanted to.

[Winthur]

The best bargain early game are all the thrown weapons. Throwing knives and javelins sell for 480. Which is fairly decent for non-magical stuff.

There's about one reason for piling up so much gold early game. It's that the gamblers have certain item types unlocked in their gamble stores faster than anyone else. Like, at 23 level, you can gamble for a Plated Belt.

And honestly, I do keep a lot of charms in my inventory early game, but then I gradually start throwing them away when it becomes convenient. I don't keep Grand Charms that give 2-3 fire damage; I usually just keep the charms that let me chill monsters and a few that give me resistances.

[Traab]

Yeah, I like charms, but damn do they eat up backpack space fast! So far I havent really found any great ones, just a couple worth holding onto until something good comes along. A few resist here, some extra stats there, and im set, waiting on the good stuff.

[willpell]

Well my druid leveled up once (to 35), took Hurricane as his new skill, and managed to beat Baal with it, however tediously. I then went to Nightmare, did the Den of Evil to get a skill respec, and started to spend it, but midway through assigning my stats (after choosing skills), my game crashed somehow. When I reloaded it, the respec had still occurred but my subsequent picks had not, so I decided I'd stop there and not do the picks again.

For the record, here's what I picked: Raven 5, Spirit Wolf 1, Dire Wolf 1, Grizzly 6 (the maximum at my level), Oak Sage 1, Heart of Wolverine 4 I think, 1 in Poison Creeper, 2 in Carrion Vine, and then the rest on the shapeshifting page: 1 each in Werewolf, Lycanthropy, Werebear, Battle Fury, Maul, Fire Claws, and then the maximum of 12 into Hunger. And I'm rather glad that my game crashed, because whoever told me hunger stops being -75% damage was mistaken. I don't think any amount of life and mana steal could be worth that.

So before I do the build again, I'm soliciting advice. Normally I don't care how viable a build is, but I've had so much trouble with Druids, despite them being my favorite class just for fluff reasons, that I think I should take advantage of this window of opportunity and find out what it's going to take to make this guy Nightmare-worthy.

[Traab]

Well my druid leveled up once (to 35), took Hurricane as his new skill, and managed to beat Baal with it, however tediously. I then went to Nightmare, did the Den of Evil to get a skill respec, and started to spend it, but midway through assigning my stats (after choosing skills), my game crashed somehow. When I reloaded it, the respec had still occurred but my subsequent picks had not, so I decided I'd stop there and not do the picks again.

For the record, here's what I picked: Raven 5, Spirit Wolf 1, Dire Wolf 1, Grizzly 6 (the maximum at my level), Oak Sage 1, Heart of Wolverine 4 I think, 1 in Poison Creeper, 2 in Carrion Vine, and then the rest on the shapeshifting page: 1 each in Werewolf, Lycanthropy, Werebear, Battle Fury, Maul, Fire Claws, and then the maximum of 12 into Hunger. And I'm rather glad that my game crashed, because whoever told me hunger stops being -75% damage was mistaken. I don't think any amount of life and mana steal could be worth that.

So before I do the build again, I'm soliciting advice. Normally I don't care how viable a build is, but I've had so much trouble with Druids, despite them being my favorite class just for fluff reasons, that I think I should take advantage of this window of opportunity and find out what it's going to take to make this guy Nightmare-worthy.

Ill be honest, I hate my druid in melee. He just seems so damn SLOW to swing as a bear. I figure, elemental can still work, just, instead of trying to say, hit 20 in fissure as soon as possible, I should have split the points up a bit more and picked up some decent wind skills. Summoning can work, but im honestly not sure how viable the pets are in nightmare and up. I mean, in normal its easy, but pretty much any screwed up spec works in normal.

*EDIT* Ok, so I am going to try a frozen orb sorc, can someone give me a solid leveling path of points to spend? I dont want to say, spend points in the chilling armor branch if they are overall a waste, or max out as many points in the weakest ice bolt spell if only a couple is fine and the rest should be saved/spent elsewhere.

[Winthur]

*EDIT* Ok, so I am going to try a frozen orb sorc, can someone give me a solid leveling path of points to spend? I dont want to say, spend points in the chilling armor branch if they are overall a waste, or max out as many points in the weakest ice bolt spell if only a couple is fine and the rest should be saved/spent elsewhere.

Assuming dual element (because FO doesn't need or have much synergies): Get to Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery, max Frozen Orb, leave everything else at 1, max preferred second element, if there are leftovers point put them into Cold Mastery, make sure that you have a point in Warmth, Static Field and Teleport. Rather straighforward.
Most common combination is Meteor + Orb ("Meteorb") or Orb + Fireball ("Orbitaller") as far as I know. FO/CL is something that should work as well; I assume Chain Lightning 20, Lightning 20 and Lightning Mastery 20. You lose out on Charged Bolt synergy, as far as I can tell.

[Traab]

Assuming dual element (because FO doesn't need or have much synergies): Get to Frozen Orb and Cold Mastery, max Frozen Orb, leave everything else at 1, max preferred second element, if there are leftovers point put them into Cold Mastery, make sure that you have a point in Warmth, Static Field and Teleport. Rather straighforward.
Most common combination is Meteor + Orb ("Meteorb") or Orb + Fireball ("Orbitaller") as far as I know. FO/CL is something that should work as well; I assume Chain Lightning 20, Lightning 20 and Lightning Mastery 20. You lose out on Charged Bolt synergy, as far as I can tell.

Really? 1 point in everything but frozen orb? How the hell am I going to kill anything before I hit 30 then? Im grateful for the end game build setup, but I mainly need to know how to put in points as I level up so I dont gimp myself for the present or later on.

[Divayth Fyr]

Really? 1 point in everything but frozen orb? How the hell am I going to kill anything before I hit 30 then? Im grateful for the end game build setup, but I mainly need to know how to put in points as I level up so I dont gimp myself for the present or later on.
Well, he said "assuming dual element" - so, you use the second one before getting FO. There aren't too many immunities in normal, so it's not a problem ;)

[Winthur]

Really? 1 point in everything but frozen orb? How the hell am I going to kill anything before I hit 30 then? Im grateful for the end game build setup, but I mainly need to know how to put in points as I level up so I dont gimp myself for the present or later on.

Rely on the other tree. Charged Bolt spam in particular is effective in Normal.
I don't really see the point of a Frozen Orb sorc if you don't go dual element. Single element Cold sorcies are poor man's Magic Finders that specialize in Blizzard and abuse Nightmare/Hell Mephisto and Andariel.

[Traab]

Well, he said "assuming dual element" - so, you use the second one before getting FO. There aren't too many immunities in normal, so it's not a problem ;)

Oh, ok, I get it now, a single point as they unlock in frost, and meanwhile im bulking up my lightning or fire or whatever. Now I understand.

[Traab]

Am I misunderstanding cold mastery? Will having a few points in that mean it doesnt matter if I fight cold immune monsters, they will still take damage from my attacks?

[Winthur]

Am I misunderstanding cold mastery? Will having a few points in that mean it doesnt matter if I fight cold immune monsters, they will still take damage from my attacks?

As far as I know, no. It only seems to work on resistances, not immunities. You can, however, break the immunity with the Lower Resist curse (fellow Necromancer or a wand with changes).

[Traab]

Well that sucks. Guess ill have to find myself a wand with some charges of lower resist on it. Keep it stored in my stash until I start hitting these immune buggers. I was kinda hoping cold immune meant they had a 100% resistance to cold, which means by even giving them an extra 34% vulnerability means my damage isnt totally negated. I guess that would be too easy huh? :p

[peacenlove]

Am I misunderstanding cold mastery? Will having a few points in that mean it doesnt matter if I fight cold immune monsters, they will still take damage from my attacks?

Cold mastery doesn't work like that since patch 1.09 (I think). Cold Immunes are still immune.
You need Paladin's conviction aura and / or Necromancer Lower resist to break through immunities (and even then some monsters will still be immune). If it breaks, then cold mastery takes effect.
On the same note, amplify damage curse breaks the physical immunity of some monsters. I don't know if dececripify curse (?) does the same.

Edit: Partially ninja'ed

[Winthur]

Well that sucks. Guess ill have to find myself a wand with some charges of lower resist on it.

Not so hard. My general rule of thumb when I play a Sorcie or Necro is to accumulate some gold and then do the merchant run in Act 2 (what you do is you make sure that the Lut Gholein map spawns so that Drognan is next to the entrance to the city; you then make loops between Drognan and the outside, causing him to restock - and you hunt for the orbs/staffs that give you +3 to your main skills. Wands with charges and Bone Shields of Deflecting (as noted above, useful against Duriel) can be easily bought this way.)
Keep it stored in my stash until I start hitting these immune buggers. I was kinda hoping cold immune meant they had a 100% resistance to cold, which means by even giving them an extra 34% vulnerability means my damage isnt totally negated. I guess that would be too easy huh? :p

Some of those monsters have over 100% resistance to cold which means low-level Lower Resist might not break the immunity. C'est la vie. That's what you have your secondary element for.

[Hubert]

So before I do the build again, I'm soliciting advice. Normally I don't care how viable a build is, but I've had so much trouble with Druids, despite them being my favorite class just for fluff reasons, that I think I should take advantage of this window of opportunity and find out what it's going to take to make this guy Nightmare-worthy.

My main advice would be: specialize. Investing equally in all skill trees can be fun, but in nightmare and hell you will seriously struggle to kill anything. If you go the shapeshifting road, I recommand to use Werewolf + Fury. At high level, the build could look like:

Shapeshifting tree
Werewolf: 20 points
Lycanthropy: 20 points
Feral Rage: 1 point
Rabies: 1+ points - secondary attack skill, for the life leach (right click)
Fury: 20 points - the main attack skill (left click)

Summoning tree
Oak Sage: 20 points for more tankiness
Raven, Spirit Wolf, Dire Wolf: 1 point
Grizzly: 1+ points, for an additional tank

Elemental tree
Nothing

As all melee builds based on physical damage, a good weapon is of utmost importance. I would recommand 2-handed weapons like polearms. The Honor runeword is quite easy to make and could get you trough nightmare if you find a good socketable weapon.

Fun fact: IIRC, the character with the fastest attack (3 frames per attack) is the assassin with a specific build involving a metamorphose in Werebear form using the Beast runeword.


Am I misunderstanding cold mastery? Will having a few points in that mean it doesnt matter if I fight cold immune monsters, they will still take damage from my attacks?

Cold mastery affects only the non-cold immune monsters. For a cold-immune monster to be affected, you first need to remove its immunity using the Lower Resist curse or the Conviction aura. However, some monsters can stay immune even under these effects (if their base resist is much higher than 100%).

Anyway, as a dual-element sorc you can switch to lightning for cold immune monsters. Cold and lightning immune monsters should be quite rare :-)

Edit: concerning the build, I always put one point in the first frozen armor (the one that deals no damage, only freezes the monsters that hit you) for the extra survivability.


On the same note, amplify damage curse breaks the physical immunity of some monsters. I don't know if dececripify curse (?) does the same.

Decrepify can remove the physical immunity, provided the monster's base resistance is not too much higher than 100%. Decrepify removes 50% of the physical resistance, but its efficiency is reduced by 5 when the monster has more than 100% physical resist. Hence, Decrepify only removes the immunity for monsters with < 110% physical resist. Amplify damage can remove immunity for monsters with < 120% physical resist. (Lower Resist and Conviction works similarly on immune monsters I think.)

Basically, regular monsters that are immune to physical damage in hell have 100% physical resist. Amp and Decrepify will remove the immunity. Champions with "stoneskin" have increased physical resist, so they can also be immune to physical damage. Amp and Decrepify will work only if their total physical resistance is not too high. For monsters that are already immune and stoneskinned, the immunity will stay even with Amplify Damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

To be honest, I'm not a big fan of Lightning damage in general. Granted, the obscenely high max damage gives impressive looking theoretical numbers, but the obscenely low minimum damage more than offsets this. I would much prefer Fire for consistent damage output or Cold for battlefield control.

Unfortunately for paladins, the damage output for Holy Fire or Holy Freeze just isn't that good. Both of them cap out around 200 damage, wheras Holy Shock averages out around 500.

But for sorcerers, I almost never touch the lightning tree, except for Static Field and Teleport. Generally, I don't even bother with Energy Shield, because it just seems too kludgy and inefficient, and requires too many other things as prerequisites to be useful. I mean, sure... you could go Telekesis16/Energy Shield20, but for all those skill points, you basically get a 75% reduction in damage, assuming your mana holds out.

[Divayth Fyr]

Energy shield is also bugged - mana burn creatures will drain all your mana in one hit, and every time it stops damage, it removes mana as if you'd be taking the full hit (no matter how high your resistances and such might be). So it drains the pool very, very fast (unless the monsters deal little to no damage - in which case the ES isn't needed at all).

[Winthur]

I miss Mana Shield. :smallfrown:



But for sorcerers, I almost never touch the lightning tree, except for Static Field and Teleport. Generally, I don't even bother with Energy Shield, because it just seems too kludgy and inefficient, and requires too many other things as prerequisites to be useful. I mean, sure... you could go Telekesis16/Energy Shield20, but for all those skill points, you basically get a 75% reduction in damage, assuming your mana holds out.

Chain Lightning arcs off Lightning immune monsters and can bounce between two targets, while Fireball's radius is smaller and AFAIK crashes into the first monster it encounters in its path.

About the only thing I can say is that Lightning likes a little bit more +skills than Fire but then again Lightning immunes don't seem to be as common as Fire immunes.

Otherwise both are viable I figure.

[Traab]

I miss Mana Shield. :smallfrown:



Chain Lightning arcs off Lightning immune monsters and can bounce between two targets, while Fireball's radius is smaller and AFAIK crashes into the first monster it encounters in its path.

About the only thing I can say is that Lightning likes a little bit more +skills than Fire but then again Lightning immunes don't seem to be as common as Fire immunes.

Otherwise both are viable I figure.

What I like about lightning spec is chain lightning. Its one of the best ways as a sorc to easily slaughter tons of mobs at a time. You mentioned fireballs radius as an example. I admit the wide damage range kinda stinks, but the fact that I dont have to launch a fire/frostbolt and hope it connects helps make up for that. Its a spell that WILL hit the target you clicked on, which is a huge help in places like act 3 with really small fast moving creatures that are always swarming around. Skills like fireball, frost bolt, they can be avoided by moving targets. Skills like meteor take several seconds to go off, once again, a weakness with moving creatures. Chain lightning just blasts everything.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What I like about lightning spec is chain lightning. Its one of the best ways as a sorc to easily slaughter tons of mobs at a time. You mentioned fireballs radius as an example. I admit the wide damage range kinda stinks, but the fact that I dont have to launch a fire/frostbolt and hope it connects helps make up for that. Its a spell that WILL hit the target you clicked on, which is a huge help in places like act 3 with really small fast moving creatures that are always swarming around. Skills like fireball, frost bolt, they can be avoided by moving targets. Skills like meteor take several seconds to go off, once again, a weakness with moving creatures. Chain lightning just blasts everything.

Frozen Sphere. Are you on the screen? Good, you're at least chilled. Incoming Meteor, which you can't avoid while being blue.

[Traab]

Pfft, so you have to hit level 30 before you get a skill that will pretty much certainly hit your target? So it requires said level 30 talent to let you hit with meteor? Im not impressed. Meanwhile ive been blasting everything I want to hit on screen since what, 18? FEAR MY CHAIN LIGHTNING! FEAR IT!!!!!

[Winthur]

Pfft, so you have to hit level 30 before you get a skill that will pretty much certainly hit your target? So it requires said level 30 talent to let you hit with meteor? Im not impressed. Meanwhile ive been blasting everything I want to hit on screen since what, 18? FEAR MY CHAIN LIGHTNING! FEAR IT!!!!!

Eh, if you are going Meteorb, you are probably maxing out a synergy to Meteor on your way to Meteor that will deal decent damage. Honestly Meteor clears well if you can predict AI and guide your Meteor to where it's standing which isn't hard. It might suck against fetishes in Act 3 but you can usually kite them on Normal difficulty, and in Nightmare and Hell you get your Frozen Orb leveled up a bit so you can chill and deal (damage).

I mean, you could also go for Fire as your secondary ability. Firewall, after all, deals a lot of damage on its own without synergies. The problem is forcing enemies to stand in it. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

Is it wrong to cackle maniacally with blaze running as you make duriel chase you through the flames until he dies?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is it wrong to cackle maniacally with blaze running as you make duriel chase you through the flames until he dies?

No. No it is not. In fact, it would be wrong to fail to do so.

[Traab]

Sweet st crispin! Heh, I am playing my new sorc, and going with lightning as my main spec, while working towards frozen orb with spare points. Anyways, I am level 5, and have already managed to get my hands on a staff with 3 to charged bolt and 1 to warmth! I love it when I get lucky early on. Only way it would be better is if I could get an eagle orb type of thing with the same stats so I could snag me a nice shield.

I have an interesting question as regards to item balance in game. Am I the only one who thinks its a bit unfair that necros are the only caster class that gets both a wand that adds skills AND a class only item they can use in conjunction with the wand? A sorc gets her eagle orbs which replaces her staff, paladins targe doesnt add class skills, (I believe) druids get the helm letting them have one item that adds to class skills. etc etc etc. Necros are the only ones that get two. Well, three if you count circlets.

[Winthur]

I have an interesting question as regards to item balance in game. Am I the only one who thinks its a bit unfair that necros are the only caster class that gets both a wand that adds skills AND a class only item they can use in conjunction with the wand? A sorc gets her eagle orbs which replaces her staff, paladins targe doesnt add class skills, (I believe) druids get the helm letting them have one item that adds to class skills. etc etc etc. Necros are the only ones that get two. Well, three if you count circlets.

Paladins targe does add class skills. It also adds a crapton of resistances which are hella important for every character and palas kinda get them for free. Sorc can alter between Staves and Orbs which technically makes her more likely to find herself something good. Plus, Necromancers don't have Teleport. :smalltongue: If you played Closed battle.net, you'd find that people pretty much start off ladders with either sorcerers (softcore) or necromancers (hardcore; summoner necro is extremely safe and can MF) and usually branch off into gearing up a Chaos Sanctuary character like Hammerdin (Paladins have so many builds for both PvM and PvP they are extremely popular in the playerbase). So basically the game is dominated by paladins and sorceresses.

I'd say it's more unfair that a paladin's targe doesn't have to be high strength to carry 4 sockets on it. Hooray, not having to waste points on Strength up to 156 (and then looking for a 4 socketed Monarch) just to carry a Spirit! :smalltongue:

Also, there does exist jewelry that gives class specific +skills, so that's four.

[Derjuin]

I have an interesting question as regards to item balance in game. Am I the only one who thinks its a bit unfair that necros are the only caster class that gets both a wand that adds skills AND a class only item they can use in conjunction with the wand? A sorc gets her eagle orbs which replaces her staff, paladins targe doesnt add class skills, (I believe) druids get the helm letting them have one item that adds to class skills. etc etc etc. Necros are the only ones that get two. Well, three if you count circlets.

Honestly, out of all the class-specific items, I think Targes are the most powerful - probably because of how quickly you can access shields with 4 sockets. Consider all the stuff you can do with a 4 socket shield you got out of the Halls of Pain - Spirit shield in normal mode?!

And then there's stuff like the Exile (http://i.imgur.com/2rQhu.png) runeword; on a shield that already has +45 all resistances, it's amazing. Of course, these two issues only arise on Ladder characters, and Exile is a very difficult runeword to make: Vex, Ohm and Ist are all very rare.

The necro items are very nice for starting off, however. My HC necromancer is sporting a +3 Skeleton/Skeleton Mastery, +2 Amp Damage wand and a +3 Skeleton, +2 Amp Damage preserved head with 2 sockets (rhyme anyone? :smallbiggrin:).

[tyckspoon]

Bit late to the discussion, but my standard starting plan for a Sorceress is: Make it through Act 1 in whatever way you need to, but *save your money*. As soon as you hit Act 2, start shopping Drognan. You are looking for a white-quality, 2 socket staff, preferably with +Fireball on it. As soon as you see such a staff buy it and make Leaf in it (TirRal. If you don't already have them, both can be acquired from the Countess and should drop in a tolerable number of runs.) Leaf gives +3 to all Fire skills and a further +3 to Firebolt, Inferno, and Warmth, as well as mana on kill. It's kind of ridiculously good for a low-level runeword. No matter what you intend to eventually build, from now until most of the way through Act 4 Normal you pretend to be a Fire sorceress. If you actually *are* making a Fire-primary Sorceress, this staff may well be your weapon of choice well into Hell, depending on your luck with drops/access to other people to trade with.

[willpell]

Paladins targe does add class skills.

Perhaps sometimes, but not as consistently as any other item that gives skills (excluding amulets/rings). The vast majority of palshields I find are worthless, to the point that they're one of the few items I don't bother to pick up anymore.


white-quality, 2 socket staff

White-quality?

[Derjuin]

White-quality?

Non-magical, but not cracked, crude, etc. Though, a "white-quality" item with sockets will actually have a grey name, not a white one :smallwink:.

[Traab]

Perhaps sometimes, but not as consistently as any other item that gives skills (excluding amulets/rings). The vast majority of palshields I find are worthless, to the point that they're one of the few items I don't bother to pick up anymore.



White-quality?

I will admit though, that targes are a huge draw for me when I think about playing a paladin. Even if it DOESNT add paladin skills, it still tends to have a nice base resist to all stat on it. What amounts to a free 19 (or whatever) to all resists isnt something to sneeze at, and can really help turn the tide even at normal difficulty, because there are a few spots that are just plain evil if you dont have the resists needed. Andariel will obliterate you in act 1 if you dont have a decent poison resist and are in a position where you will get hit by her attacks. Those shaman in act 3 will kill you so damn fast you wont know what the hell happened without a nice solid fire resist. So having that extra resist basically for free is really nice.

[Winthur]

Andariel will obliterate you in act 1 if you dont have a decent poison resist and are in a position where you will get hit by her attacks.

While I agree with the fact that Targes and their resistance boni are totally awesome, Andariel isn't an issue even if you didn't grind for poison resistance items due to the fact that drinking an Antidote before the fight gives you quite a huge boost to Poison resistance and then you can drink Antidotes periodically during the fight if necessary. Rejuvenation Points help if you get some burst from her.

Thawing Potions provide a similar bonus except against Cold.

[Traab]

While I agree with the fact that Targes and their resistance boni are totally awesome, Andariel isn't an issue even if you didn't grind for poison resistance items due to the fact that drinking an Antidote before the fight gives you quite a huge boost to Poison resistance and then you can drink Antidotes periodically during the fight if necessary. Rejuvenation Points help if you get some burst from her.

Thawing Potions provide a similar bonus except against Cold.

Really? I didnt know they boosted poison resist, I thought they just got rid of your current poison. I never even picked that crap up off the floor. Ill have to snag one to see for myself. Ugh, just came back from the game. You know what would help? IF THEY FRIGGING MENTIONED THIS FACT ON THE ITEM!!!

[willpell]

So, a rules question...if I have an item that gives +2 to Raise Skeleton, let's say, and I switch back and forth between that item and a different one using Switch Weapons, do the stats of skeletons I summoned earlier go up and down to match the current stats listed for the skill, or are they locked in at the stats they had when summoned? I'm guessing that whatever the answer for Raise Skeleton, Skeleton Mastery is probably always applied at the time, so I'd assume if I switched in and out of that one the skeletons would get stronger or weaker, but the answer might be different for their base stats derived from the Raise skill.


Non-magical, but not cracked, crude, etc. Though, a "white-quality" item with sockets will actually have a grey name, not a white one :smallwink:.

Right, and a Low Quality etc. item will have a white name, unless it's socketed, so this seems like rather poorly-thought-out slang (though of course that describes the majority of slang).


While I agree with the fact that Targes and their resistance boni are totally awesome, Andariel isn't an issue even if you didn't grind for poison resistance items due to the fact that drinking an Antidote before the fight gives you quite a huge boost to Poison resistance and then you can drink Antidotes periodically during the fight if necessary.

Perhaps you guys are talking Hell, but I've had few issues with Andariel on Normal or Nightmare. Yes I die sometimes, but ultimately this doesn't matter; I park a Town Portal just above the stairs to Catacombs Level 4 so that I can run in and rejoin the battle immediately after dying, and I usually use a Prevent Monster Heal weapon so that creatures can't regenerate between bouts of me attacking them (though sadly this seems to be true only of the weapon's own damage; I tried to supplement my crappy Vileness throwing axes with explosive potions but it didn't look like they were helping). Yes it's tedious, but as long as I get in a few licks each time and don't forget to reopen the portal, my victory is pretty much guaranteed; if I'm in Nightmare I make sure I've leveled up recently so I don't waste too much XP. The only time it's a real problem is when I can't even get a scratch on the boss, which happens most often with Duriel because he's so absurdly deadly, and Baal because he's hard to even get close to and has the clone. Diablo is far easier to deal with than Duriel IMO, apart from having to go through his bodyguards. And while I don't agree with the general opinion that Mephisto is easy exactly, again he is far less of a problem than the High Council members and vampires that you have to slog through before (or during!) your fight with him. Once the fight is mano-a-mano, it's usually just a matter of time until my method wins, frustrating though it can be to die all those times.

[Winthur]

*snip*

:smallconfused: Well, I guess to each its own. I don't remember the last time I died to Andariel. Maybe with a Bowazon or a similar build that doesn't have any bulk whatsoever both damage-wise and vitality-wise, but then again it's not hard at all to kite Andariel around the pool of blood on the level. Duriel is a roadblock that requires solid preparation, agreed. Mephisto on the other hand always appeared to me as a pushover, his damage is weak, there's only one element you need to really put resistances against, his chilling can be alleviated by Thawing Potions at least, and he gets owned by the moat trick if you're a ranged character. Diablo usually takes some time and can be scary because of the red lightning of doom. Baal for me is just an exercise in pressing a button and waiting 'til he dies, almost like Izual.

I suspect you are being underleveled when fighting those or your builds aren't that great. ._.

[Traab]

:smallconfused: Well, I guess to each its own. I don't remember the last time I died to Andariel. Maybe with a Bowazon or a similar build that doesn't have any bulk whatsoever both damage-wise and vitality-wise, but then again it's not hard at all to kite Andariel around the pool of blood on the level. Duriel is a roadblock that requires solid preparation, agreed. Mephisto on the other hand always appeared to me as a pushover, his damage is weak, there's only one element you need to really put resistances against, his chilling can be alleviated by Thawing Potions at least, and he gets owned by the moat trick if you're a ranged character. Diablo usually takes some time and can be scary because of the red lightning of doom. Baal for me is just an exercise in pressing a button and waiting 'til he dies, almost like Izual.

I suspect you are being underleveled when fighting those or your builds aren't that great. ._.


Diablo is evil incarnate for anyone playing a summon class. I said it before, ill say it again. That rat bastard is able to kill 7 out of my 10 skeleton pets with that fire nova he launches before I ever get to see him, then the rest die right away. I am NOT looking forward to reaching him with my summon druid, because I know my skellymancer got owned hardcore. It was a useless attempt. Maybe 150 portals later I could have whittled him down. Or bought a wand that adds +3 to bone spear and tried to wear him down that way instead, I dunno, but being a skellymancer meant being dead against him.

[Winthur]

Diablo is evil incarnate for anyone playing a summon class. I said it before, ill say it again. That rat bastard is able to kill 7 out of my 10 skeleton pets with that fire nova he launches before I ever get to see him, then the rest die right away. I am NOT looking forward to reaching him with my summon druid, because I know my skellymancer got owned hardcore. It was a useless attempt. Maybe 150 portals later I could have whittled him down. Or bought a wand that adds +3 to bone spear and tried to wear him down that way instead, I dunno, but being a skellymancer meant being dead against him.

Save skill points before level 24 (which you should be able to achieve by the end of Act 4) so that you can instantly knock off a point in Decrepify AND Summon Resist - this makes the Diablo fight much more managable for your Skellymancer, provided you
1) Respawn your Clay Golem in the face of Diablo every single time he dies
2) Keep refreshing Decrepify on Diablo.
For your sake I also hope you were maxing Raise Skeleton first until the fight with Diablo.

Your Druid Summoner shouldn't be that worried either - you lack the slowing curse, but your wolves can be supported by an Act 2 Mercenary and the Oak Sage. The wolves and the Oak Sage WILL die, but as long as you keep your cool (and keep summoning them), you can probably do this fight without Diablo endangering your life.

[Traab]

I had summon resist. I think thats why I had 3 whole pets survive. Aside from amplify damage though, I had never really been a curse user. It worked in the past, I used the good old fashioned summon clay golem facing away from my skels move and boom, my pets lived, my clay golem died a lot, and eventually the red horny booger died. It has been awhile since I played the game, and im sure a few patches had come out, but damn they changed something. My skellymancer was my one and only hell difficulty character he made it to act 5 hell. My newbie skellymancer couldnt make it past act 4 normal.

[Winthur]

I had summon resist. I think thats why I had 3 whole pets survive. Aside from amplify damage though, I had never really been a curse user. It worked in the past, I used the good old fashioned summon clay golem facing away from my skels move and boom, my pets lived, my clay golem died a lot, and eventually the red horny booger died. It has been awhile since I played the game, and im sure a few patches had come out, but damn they changed something. My skellymancer was my one and only hell difficulty character he made it to act 5 hell. My newbie skellymancer couldnt make it past act 4 normal.

Decrepify really does help, as do most other curses. Amplify Damage is straightforward especially since you focus on damage from skeletons. Decrepify is a wonderful tool against bosses because it slows their attacks and causes your losses to be lower while also having a partial Amplify Damage effect. The Decrep + Clay Golem slow sorta stacks making the bosses much more harmless. I also like Dim Vision against archers (it effectively shuts them down, though the cast radius leaves a lot to be desired) and the curses on the left side of the Curses tree, which can be useful for crowd control.

Otherwise, well, sorry, I can't figure it out. My Necro who finished the difficulty with untwinked items didn't have any problems with Diablo using all of the above.

[Traab]

The problem is casting decrepify. Like I said, I kept getting that damn fire nova attack while he is still off screen, and i swear he is on meth because the bugger never stops running around! By the time I get close enough to attack him, most of my pets are dead. But I can give it a shot and try again.

[Gnoman]

The only boss I ever had real trouble with was Duriel, and that was purely due to the tiny arena. That was actually an excellent boss fight for minions, since you have a lot more time to get going if he's bashing skeletons.

[Traab]

Yeah duriel was easy as hell as a skellymancer, he could only hit one skel at a time, so plenty of time to summon a clay golem to taunt him and keep resummoning it while my merc and crew pound on his maggoty back.

[willpell]

I suspect you are being underleveled when fighting those or your builds aren't that great. ._.

Probably both, actually; I generally pick skills based on whimsy rather than any sort of a plan, and I tend to be impatient to get through the game. Plus, while grinding a boss for a half-hour is tedious, being able to kill it in three hits is just lame (and yes I've done this with various sub-bosses such as the Smith, though not with an act boss I don't think, though Andariel can be close for some of the stronger chars in Nightmare), so I'm very willing to take on a very tough boss now (and lose a lot), instead of leveling a bunch to be able to win more easily.

I think I'm almost invariably level 12 when I do in Andy the first time, Duriel is somewhere in the 20-22 range as a rule, and as I said before the "sweet spot" with Baal seems to be about 36. Not sure where exactly I am with Mephisto or Diablo, though I doubt there's ever more than a three-level gap just because of how tiny Hell is. As to Nightmare, I think I've gotten five characters past Andy and only two of those have killed Duriel; my Amazon had an absolutely miserable time fighting him at about level 48, having to switch to her backup bow and snipe while he killed her Valkyrie since she couldn't survive for even a few seconds using her main lance. Took bloody forever, and now she's taking her own sweet time in act 3, since I expect to have trouble with the High Council as well. The other character is a poorly built Barbarian who I just about wrote off as hopeless at level 44, because he died within seconds of stepping off a waypoint in Kurast. But somehow I finally managed to get him through (and gained a couple more levels through an utterly miserable process of repeatedly dying and having to wander all over the Durance, trying to outrun monsters he had zero hope of killing; I still don't know how I managed), so he's to date the only character who's managed to kill Mephisto, which I guess is a testament to how weak Mephisto is. I'm in no great hurry to have this wimpy a character face Diablo or Baal, though; he was my single first character in the game and it shows big-time.

[Hubert]

So, a rules question...if I have an item that gives +2 to Raise Skeleton, let's say, and I switch back and forth between that item and a different one using Switch Weapons, do the stats of skeletons I summoned earlier go up and down to match the current stats listed for the skill, or are they locked in at the stats they had when summoned? I'm guessing that whatever the answer for Raise Skeleton, Skeleton Mastery is probably always applied at the time, so I'd assume if I switched in and out of that one the skeletons would get stronger or weaker, but the answer might be different for their base stats derived from the Raise skill.

The summons will keep their stats at the level they were created. The only thing that can change is the number of summons. For example, let's say you have 10 points invested in Raise Skeleton, and a Spirit sword (+2 to all skills). Now your effective level in Raise Skeleton is 12, meaning that you can raise 6 skeletons at the same time. If you switch to a bow with 0 bonus to Raise Skeleton, one of your pets will die because you can have max 5 skeletons at this level. However, the stats of the skeletons will stay the same as when you created them.

This rule is true with every spell in D2. This is why precast is often used: it consists in equipping (through switch weapon or manually) specific items with huge +skills bonuses before casting long-time buffs, then switching back to the items used to actually damage the monsters.


I also like Dim Vision against archers

And against the lightning-attacking souls from act 5.


The problem is casting decrepify. Like I said, I kept getting that damn fire nova attack while he is still off screen, and i swear he is on meth because the bugger never stops running around! By the time I get close enough to attack him, most of my pets are dead. But I can give it a shot and try again.

How many skill points do you have in Raise Skeletons and Skeleton Mastery? How many bonus skills? Maybe you can try to use the act 2 mercenary with the Prayer aura (ideally equipped with an Insight polearm for the Meditation aura + synergy with Prayer). It should help your army to stay alive. But cursing Diablo with Decrepify and summoning a Clay Golem on him is the key.

[Derjuin]

Oi. :annoyed:

It took me upwards of 15 nightmare countess runs to get one. freaking. Sol rune. Not counting the TWO times when she didn't drop any runes at all! In retrospect, it's kind of funny, because she didn't actually drop a Sol rune; rather, I upgraded 3 Amn runes she (eventually) dropped. Farming for a chipped amethyst was the worst time ever :smallsigh:.

At least I have an Insight polemarm on my merc now...good-bye mana potions!

[Traab]

Ok, so I am seeing some comments on raise skeleton and skeletal mastery. How should I, as a skellymancer, be allocating points? Should I just pump up skeletal warriors till they hit 20 then move on to mastery? Should I alternate? Are skeletal mages worthless and should be ignored?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok, so I am seeing some comments on raise skeleton and skeletal mastery. How should I, as a skellymancer, be allocating points? Should I just pump up skeletal warriors till they hit 20 then move on to mastery? Should I alternate? Are skeletal mages worthless and should be ignored?

frost skele mages can provide you with some battlefield control at the price of a possible corpse lost. The others are basically extra damage output. Since they are augmented with Skeletal Mastery and Summon Resist, you can pretty much put one to three points here and be fairly competent with them.

[Hubert]

Ok, so I am seeing some comments on raise skeleton and skeletal mastery. How should I, as a skellymancer, be allocating points? Should I just pump up skeletal warriors till they hit 20 then move on to mastery? Should I alternate? Are skeletal mages worthless and should be ignored?

I usually allocate 4 initial points in Raise Skeleton, then alternate between Mastery and Raise. Mastery gives nice bonuses, but you need additional skeletons in order to fully benefit from it.

Skeletal mages can be useful, but I level them only after maxing Raise and Mastery. Before that, the one point you place as prereq for Revive should be enough to have 3 mages (with the +skills). Re-cast them until you have at least one frost mage. The mages, while providing additional elemental damage, do not benefit from your main curse (Amplify Damage). Moreover, they can impair you by blocking your other summons in cramped places (e.g. Maggot Lair).

My typical skelemancer build is:

Summoning
20 Skeleton Mastery
20 Raise Skeleton
1 Clay Golem
20 Skeletal mage
1 Golem Mastery
1 Summon Resist
1+ Revive

Curses
1 Amplify Damage
1 Dim Vision
1 Weaken
1 Terror
1 Decrepify

Poison and Bone Spells
1 Teeth
1 Bone Armor
1 Corpse Explosion <- Very important, it is helpful to (1) get the first kills for raising an army and (2) decimate groups of monsters, especially in p1.

[Winthur]

I usually allocate 4 initial points in Raise Skeleton, then alternate between Mastery and Raise. Mastery gives nice bonuses, but you need additional skeletons in order to fully benefit from it.
I prefer to run max Raise and then Mastery instead of alternating. Maybe it's more of a pet peeve though, but it seems like the additional damage is more important.


Skeletal mages can be useful, but I level them only after maxing Raise and Mastery. Before that, the one point you place as prereq for Revive should be enough to have 3 mages (with the +skills). Re-cast them until you have at least one frost mage. The mages, while providing additional elemental damage, do not benefit from your main curse (Amplify Damage). Moreover, they can impair you by blocking your other summons in cramped places (e.g. Maggot Lair).

Mages also have random elements. You don't really need more than 1 poison mage (in fact you can argue whether you need any poison mage at all). I found that even in Hell I am more busy raising my Warriors or creating Revives than using those silly Mages. But they're an option, I just don't like them, especially since as you pointed out they don't benefit from Amplify Damage.


My typical skelemancer build is:

Summoning
20 Skeleton Mastery
20 Raise Skeleton
1 Clay Golem
20 Skeletal mage
1 Golem Mastery
1 Summon Resist
1+ Revive

Curses
1 Amplify Damage
1 Dim Vision
1 Weaken
1 Terror
1 Decrepify

Poison and Bone Spells
1 Teeth
1 Bone Armor
1 Corpse Explosion <- Very important, it is helpful to (1) get the first kills for raising an army and (2) decimate groups of monsters, especially in p1.

Again might be a question of style, but I would rather max out Corpse Explosion than Skeleton Mages. Yes, just the additional radius on the spell feels worth it for me. Corpse Explosion seems to me like *the* PvM Necro spell; in fact I'd say that whether your necro is a bonemancer or a summoner or some oddball stuff, the most effective way of dealing with levels will still be "setting up a chain reaction with a single body of a dropped enemy".

But either way - Corpse Explosion is amazing and definitely requires at least a point. It takes a lot of mana in early game when you first get it and doesn't look amazing then, but by golly you'll learn to love that skill later on - even if it didn't kick so much ass, it definitely feels extremely good when it blows everything on the screen up.

It is particularly worth noting that Corpse Explosion deals 50% physical and 50% fire damage - which means it grants you an additional element to play with in case of enemy immunities, but it also is affected by the Amplify Damage curse.

[Traab]

Hmm, ok, I understand the idea behind maxing raise first, because those huge attack/def stats would really come in handy. However, my issue arises with their whopping 21 hp without anything in mastery. I really dont see that lasting past act 1 without having to constantly replace them. High def or not, having like 1/10th the hp of a melee character just seems a bad idea. Especially against spell caster monsters. Im pretty sure andariel would cast a single poison aoe attack and kill them all. I think I may alternate, with more emphasis towards raise. So 2 raise, 1 mastery. That way my pets have the boosted hp and damage, as well as the high att and def.

I will ignore skeletal mages though as the only reason I ever really bothered getting them was because of those few areas with narrow halls where my warriors cant attack more than 2 at a time, so it was nice having some ranged damage to add to the mix, but I can solve that with a wand or skull with a ranged attack skill boost on it. My pet druid did well in maggot lair with level 3 molten boulder on his hawk helm, so if I could find something that gives me a few bone spear points or something like that, it should do fine for the run through.

[willpell]

Skeleton mages are certainly far from useless; as long as you've got a golem and/or mercenary to tank for you, the mages will actually stay alive while frontline skeletons are little more than speed bumps to preoccupy monsters so they don't slaughter your tank too fast. It's annoying that there's no way to stop 1/4 of skelmages from spawning cold-elemental and destroying corpses you could use, but it's an acceptible price to pay.

What I can't stand is Revive...such a great concept in theory, but the blasted zombies only last three freaking minutes, and the clock doesn't even stop when you go to town. An utter waste of what should have been one of the coolest abilities in the game. Plus to really do Revives in particular, and any other form of summoning ideally, justice there needs to be a more RTS-style control setup where you can check the HP of individual minions and give them specific orders. As it stands, I routinely spawn new skeletons only to have old ones die because I couldn't tell whether the teensy-weensy number which says how many are left is a 2 or a 3.

In other news, I love barbarians with War Cry. My first barb didn't have it until he found a helm with it, so it still doesn't do any good after he dies...but when my second barb died in the Ancient's Way just now, he just ran back in and yelled at his killers until they dropped dead. Friggin' hilarious. By the way, a question - this barb is fighting with a Malice runeword sword...will the Open Wounds property work on Baal? It sure would be nice to deal extra damage over time even after he teleports away. I just killed the Ancients and it didn't seem as though Open Wounds was working on them, though it was hard to tell.

[Traab]

Oh, I wouldnt say the mages are useless, its just, I would rather have maxed out skeletal warriors and mastery before I put points into them if I can help it. I want my front line troops to be as strong as possible as fast as possible. What I wonder about is, to avoid the insta kill by fire nova, I obviously need summon resist, but maybe I should pump some extra points into mastery so they have the hp to survive as well as the resists. After all, they do just as much dps with 1 hp as they would with full life, so long as they survive long enough for me to slap a nice decrepify on diablo, I think I can take him. Especially if I take those 3-4 points or whatever the hell I had in mages, and put them towards more mastery or warriors. Could be enough to make the difference.

*EDIT* I also want to add, I am very tired of searching for builds to help me with leveling only to find that all they tell me is what my talent point allotment will be at level 90 or whatever. Its not very helpful to tell me, "Oh yeah, you want 20 warriors, 20 mastery, 20 corpse explosion" Without telling me what order I should be doing it in. Similar to the druid build I got earlier. If I didnt have that whole "put 1 point here here and here, then save till this level" setup, my summon build would likely be gimped right from the start, as holding onto talent points until the next teir is open wouldnt have even occurred to me. I would have, I dunno, put 3-4 points in ravens or something just to stick with the pet theme and had a much harder time getting all the skills at level 6 or whatever that I needed.

Even if its something like, "Use this build until you hit level x, then go to akara and respec to this build now that you have the points to make it work." That would be helpful. Because I understand that there are a few good builds out there that would probably suck to try and level up with earning point by point. Just telling me what I will have for a spec at max level is not helpful.

[-teacup]

Ok, so I am seeing some comments on raise skeleton and skeletal mastery. How should I, as a skellymancer, be allocating points? Should I just pump up skeletal warriors till they hit 20 then move on to mastery? Should I alternate? Are skeletal mages worthless and should be ignored?

I usually put points in raise skeleton and skeleton mastery in an approximately 2:1 ratio. That seems to work well for me. I think one point is sufficient for skeletal mages. I prefer the cold ones against act bosses, but otherwise it doesn't really matter. You need mage anyway to get revive, but don't get revive until after you maxed raise skeleton. I'd probably even wait until you've maxed skeleton mastery too.

I once did a "lord of mages" build (20 skelly mage, 20 skelleton mastery, use lower resists as curse) and was disappointed with its performance. Element using allies liked me though.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Revive is probably the most powerful skill in the entire game.

Sure, they have a limited duration, however... they pop back up with their stats... AND get Skeletal Mastery thrown on top of it. This is a skill that ramps up in ability as you go into nightmare and hell, because as the enemies stats go up, so do your new temporary pets. It favors runs, though, because the further you go, the more bodies you have left behind to turn into more temporary minions.

[Derjuin]

<max level builds are unhelpful>

For a skeleton necromancer (note: this is a build I would use, not any kind of accepted norm):


2: Raise Skeleton (1)
3: Raise Skeleton (2)
4: Raise Skeleton (3)
Akara: Skeleton Mastery (1)
5: Amplify Damage (1)
6: Clay Golem (1)
7-11: Skeleton Mastery (6)
12: Raise Skeletal Mage (1)
13: Golem Mastery (1)
14: Skeleton Mastery (7)
15: Skeleton Mastery (8)
16-20: Raise Skeleton (8) <- Andariel/Act 2 beginning
Skill Book: Raise Skeleton (9)
21: Weaken (1)
22: Terror (1) <- Duriel
23: Save
24: Decrepify (1) <- Mephisto
24: Summon Resist (1)
Izual: Raise Skeleton (11)
25-30: Raise Skeleton (17) *if you are on Ladder, begin searching for 4 socket sword, 4 socket polearm, Sol rune, Amn rune now*
31-33: Raise Skeleton (20)
34: Teeth (1)
35: Corpse Explosion (1)
36: Skeleton Mastery (9) <- Baal
37-48: Skeleton Mastery (20)
AkaraNM: Corpse Explosion (2)
The rest you want to max out CE, and from there it's up to you which skills you like more.

[Winthur]

Here's a cool little thing you can do as a hero relying on summons, provided you play on ladder or have the runeword mod installed!
Get yourself an Act 1 Mercenary and equip her with a bow with the runeword TirTalAmn. Alternately, use it yourself.
Mainly for this little gem:
Level 15 Thorns Aura When Equipped
Sadly, Normal Countess only drops runes up to Ral, so you'd have to do some serious cubing to guarantee yourself an Amn rune.
You might get Amn from the Hellforge (I mean, the required character level to use the runeword is 25 anyway) or mule the item over as well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thorns really isn't as awesome as one might think, due to how monster HP and DPS scale. Mind you, combining it with your Life Tap curse does significantly improve the life expectancy of your minions against anything short of a level boss, but most likely the damage Thorns contributes in Nightmare isn't going to be worth the investment of the Amn rune, not to mention being stuck with an Act I merc.

Also, Prevent Monster Heal doesn't work properly from mercs, which is a right shame considering that this would've probably made it a worthwhile option in boss fights.

It might work on Normal, or even part of the way through Nighmare, but I don't think it could take you very far.

[Gnoman]

I used a similar trick (except using a Thorns Paladin instead of a runeword) through the entirety of Nightmare difficulty. It rarely caused monster suicides, but it provided a significant boost in the skeleton's damage output, and worked quite well.

[Icewraith]

All that sorceress discussion and no one brought up lightning nova? Chain lightning is terrible.

OK, so here's what I did in hell difficulty

max Frozen orb + cold mastery + 1 in prereqs
max lightning nova+lightning mastery + 1 inprereqs
? warmth (min 1)
1 teleport
1 frozen armor (the one that freezes melee attackers)
1 call lightning
1 static field
-things I'm forgetting?

I don't remember if it's possible but if I had the points I think I'd try to grab a point in elemental weapon in the fire tree. One point and +skills is a really nice damage boost for your merc against things that are immune to you

SHIELD!
SHIELD SHIELD SHIELD SHIELD SHIELD!!!
(shield)

2 lines of rejuv pots in your belt
1 health
1 mana

once you have Insight run 2/2 or 3/1 and drop mana completely.

Stormshield if you're lucky
Oculus if you're lucky

act 2 Nightmare freeze aura merc
Insight polearm

How it works:

Static Field bosses down to half health

Teleport away

Spam Frozen Orb. Frozen Orb is pretty.

Anything that gets close to you is immediately chilled and slowed by your merc + Frozen Orb.

Anything that gets kind of close to you or is cold immune is lightning novad.
Lightning nova actually has a decent range- most things are either a big pack trying to close with you or are ranged and don't move if you stand next to them and nova for a few seconds. It hits all the targets.

Anything that actually manages to hit you (except Act bosses? But why are you in their melee when you have teleport? - except Duriel) gets frozen - briefly, but still frozen.

Hey you have a shield and very little need to move around conventionally, so your block is going to be pretty good if you need to spam lightning nova more you can, or you can tele away and orb some more.

If you have an Oculus, when something hits you you often auto-escape for free! AND you can also tele away from any really nasty mobs you occasionally get ported into. And you have the tools to survive getting ported into melee! Also, your merc goes with you and his freeze aura and he's an additional target to soak damage off you if you land in a pack of elites!

Cold/Lightning immune bosses:
Kill minions. Feed merc potions until it dies or the mob dies.
If you have enchant weapon and that works, keep it up on your merc.
If you really can't kill it, kite it to a nice big open space you already cleared and then run away.
Be buddies with a vengeance pally.
Be buddies with a necromancer.


It always seemed like there were way more cold/fire or fire/lightning immune guys running around anyways. I never saw the point of fire. My wife's orb/meteor sorc had way more issues in Hell than I did, and she had better luck with drops.


Incidentally.
Don't move when fighting the snake mobs in act 5 Hell, their poison kills you if you move after they charge.
Don't go fight Nihlathak without someone who can consistently and quickly get rid of corpses (usually necromancer)
Don't let your total mana ever get higher than your total health.

There were those among my friends that feared the undead stygian dolls. But not I. On my sorceress. Those guys suck if you're melee.

The one thing I regret never quite doing was getting a vengeance + conviction pally using that runeword that gives you a lower level fanaticism aura and the might act 2 merc, with... something... else? Insight if nothing better. I was one rune away - it was one of the rare ones, but I was one rune away.

Why take the conviction aura instead of trying to get the polearm for my merc?
1: Better aura from the player.
2: Wife plays a sorc.
3: Friend has a necromancer.

[Hubert]

Hmm, ok, I understand the idea behind maxing raise first, because those huge attack/def stats would really come in handy. However, my issue arises with their whopping 21 hp without anything in mastery. I really dont see that lasting past act 1 without having to constantly replace them. High def or not, having like 1/10th the hp of a melee character just seems a bad idea. Especially against spell caster monsters. Im pretty sure andariel would cast a single poison aoe attack and kill them all. I think I may alternate, with more emphasis towards raise. So 2 raise, 1 mastery. That way my pets have the boosted hp and damage, as well as the high att and def.

You can use this skill calculator (http://diablo2.ingame.de/spiel/skills/calc/index.php?char=nec&lang=en) to find the optimum. Let's say you have 15 skill points to dispatch between Raise and Mastery. Then, each individual skeleton will have max hp with 9 in Raise and 6 in Mastery. After some quick tests, it seems the skeletons have max hp when lvl_Raise = 4 + lvl_Mastery. Of course, this is only for maximizing the number of hp per skeleton (which is the most relevant for surviving against Diablo's fire nova).


I once did a "lord of mages" build (20 skelly mage, 20 skelleton mastery, use lower resists as curse) and was disappointed with its performance. Element using allies liked me though.

It is interesting to combine a "Lord of Mages" with poison spells (Poison Nova). This way, both you and your summons make good use of Lower Resist.


Revive is probably the most powerful skill in the entire game.

Sure, they have a limited duration, however... they pop back up with their stats... AND get Skeletal Mastery thrown on top of it. This is a skill that ramps up in ability as you go into nightmare and hell, because as the enemies stats go up, so do your new temporary pets. It favors runs, though, because the further you go, the more bodies you have left behind to turn into more temporary minions.

Revive are very good... depending on which monsters you choose. Ideally, you want monsters with interesting properties, like the tree-things from act 3 (for the stun) or the lightning souls (for the high-damage long-range attack).


By the way, a question - this barb is fighting with a Malice runeword sword...will the Open Wounds property work on Baal? It sure would be nice to deal extra damage over time even after he teleports away. I just killed the Ancients and it didn't seem as though Open Wounds was working on them, though it was hard to tell.

After some research, I found this:

Open Wounds
This is a chance of making a monster bleed uncontrollably. They lose health while bleeding. Open Wounds Items stack in most cases.

Duration: 200 frames (that is 8 seconds).

The damage per frame seems to be the following (where Clvl is the attackers level, that is the player's level usually):

Clvl=1-15: (9*Clvl+31)/256
Clvl=16-30: (18*Clvl-104)/256
Clvl=31-45: (27*Clvl-374)/256
Clvl=46-60: (36*Clvl-779)/256
Clvl=61-99: (45*Clvl-1319)/256

If you prefer per second, just multiply by 25:

Clvl=1-15: 25*(9*Clvl+31)/256
Clvl=16-30: 25*(18*Clvl-104)/256
Clvl=31-45: 25*(27*Clvl-374)/256
Clvl=46-60: 25*(36*Clvl-779)/256
Clvl=61-99: 25*(45*Clvl-1319)/256

Some examples:

Clvl 10: 11.8 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 94.5 damage. Clvl 30: 42.6 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 340.6 damage. Clvl 50: 99.7 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 797.7 damage. Clvl 70: 178.8 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 1430.5 damage. Clvl 90: 266.7 per sec over 8 seconds for a total of 2133.6 damage.

Also, the damage is divided by 4 for a player target. In addition, for a missile versus a player target one should divide the damage by 8 instead.

Finally, versus bosses and champions (could be just bosses or special bosses) the damage is divided by 2.

It is possible to get up to 100% chance for Open Wounds. Anything above 100% is discarded.


In summary, Open Wound works against the bosses, even though its damage is halved. Open wound is usually not used for its low damage, but for its property to stop the boss' regeneration (which can amount to 7k hp/s on bosses in Uber Tristram).

By the way, Malice is not really good as main weapon, due to its low damage. It is mainly used as a switch weapon, for blocking the monster regen.

[willpell]

Don't move when fighting the snake mobs in act 5 Hell, their poison kills you if you move after they charge.

? The only snakes I know of are in acts 2 (Claw Viper, Salamander) and 3 (Serpent Magus).


Don't go fight Nihlathak without someone who can consistently and quickly get rid of corpses (usually necromancer)

Or just kill him fast, that's what my Barb did. Although he nearly died every time Nihlathak fired Arctic Blast, which I thought was odd since I thought that was way lower-damage than Inferno. It was tricky as heck and I ran out of HP shortly before the end, so I had to run to town and back before getting to see the guy go down, but he was virtually dead at the time and took like 2 seconds to finish when I came back.

[darksolitaire]

? The only snakes I know of are in acts 2 (Claw Viper, Salamander) and 3 (Serpent Magus).


They are in Nihlatak's temple, last floor. That place is one of the hardest areas in hell; snakes are bugged so that they apply their poison damage when they charge as physical damage. Lightning shooting Will-o-wisps were bugged in Nightmare, too.

[Hubert]

? The only snakes I know of are in acts 2 (Claw Viper, Salamander) and 3 (Serpent Magus).

In hell difficulty, "guest monsters" from previous acts spawn in act 5, along with the original act 5 monsters. One of these guest monsters is the infamous Tomb Viper, which contributes to make the Halls of Vaught (the final level in Nihlathak's Temple) one of the most deadly place in Diablo 2.

Tomb Vipers are just like regular vipers from act 2 and 3, except they can throw javelins similar to the Plague Javelin skill from the amazon. These javelins deal poison and physical damage on collision, but also release poison clouds in their wake. There start the problems.

The poison clouds released by the javelin also apply the same poison and physical damage to anything they collide with. As each javelin release up to 14 clouds, a pack of 3 vipers can quickly surround you with 42 clouds. If you run through that, you will receive the damage up to 42 times in rapid succession, which is often enough to kill you.

So standing still should be the solution to prevent the insta-kill... except it isn't. Indeed, each cloud is coded so that it cannot collide with you twice in a row. Enter the mercenary, summon, skeleton, walkyrie, whatever. The cloud cannot harm you two times in a row, but it can alternate (each frame) between harming you and somebody else. At 25 frame per second, each cloud can hit you (and anyone near you) about 12.5 times per second.

Finally, let us note that the cloud display is bugged. The clouds appear to last for 2.4 seconds, but they last in fact for 4.8 seconds. They are thus invisible killing traps for half the duration.

More details about this can be found here (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/index.php?showtopic=55484&pid=914271&st=15&#entry914271).

Edit: ninja'ed, but with more details :p

[willpell]

*snip*

So basically what you're telling me is that, relatively casual and less than competent player I am, I shouldn't ever even try to play Hell.

Well, congratulations. i was trying to talk myself out of staying up past my bedtime to play today, and you've successfully persuaded me to refrain. (Not that I'm in Hell difficulty of course, but still, the mood is soured.)

[Traab]

I swear I dont remember any of that, and I made it to just outside the worldstone keep in hell. Of course, that was several patches ago, it may have gotten busted since then. I think I recall the snakes themselves though, I just dont remember the insta gib. Those ancients stopped me dead in my tracks, not by being pet slaughtering badasses, but by being physical immune and taking all day to slowly whittle down which was tough because eventually my pets die, and I cant leave without them resetting. Thing is, I dont even think we had respecs yet at that point, so I couldnt just adjust things and try again. It was way back in the heyday of the synergy patch when every class kicked ten times the ass it usually did.

*EDIT* Woot! My new necro is only level 6 and has already found a nice disembodied head with +2 skel mastery on it. Heh, looks like I can skip a few cycles of adding points to that and keep maxxing out my skeletal summons instead. :p Now I just need to scrounge up the cash or get a lucky wand drop to get better than the +1 to raise skeleton skill I started out with. Mwahaha! If that happens I may decide to plop the next few level up points in various prerequisite skills for later on.

[tyckspoon]

So basically what you're telling me is that, relatively casual and less than competent player I am, I shouldn't ever even try to play Hell.


With your stated preference for putting skill points wherever the heck you want instead of hewing to working ability plans and rushing the game, which leads me to suspect you don't want to do the repetitive bossrunning/grinding that would be necessary to get the levels and gear you would need to actually clear Hell? Probably not. You'd likely only find frustration there. And that's without some of the bugged/just hilariously unfair fights; if you're having trouble with Normal bosses the Hell versions of them are going to crush you.

[darksolitaire]

Playing Diablo 2 in Hell difficulty requires better and better gear the harder the build you play is (naturally some hardcore players Pat/Mat their characters with self-imposed challenges). The difficulty also increases act by act much more then it did in nightmare. In some builds I could breeze act 1 in players 8, and had to switch it to players 1 for arcane sanctuary in act 2. My fire-archer Paladin and Singer Barbarian never made it trough act 2, when it became increasingly slow to kill mobs. And I grind my characters to level 75 in nightmare Baal so they weren't under-leveled.

Also, act bosses in hell are easy when compared to some uniques/super uniques who happen to spawn with mean mods.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9272/omgwtff.jpg

[Divayth Fyr]

Isn't that picture missing the multiple shots modifier (or whatever was it called)? I remember it was nasty on a lightning enchanted monster...

[tyckspoon]

Also, act bosses in hell are easy when compared to some uniques/super uniques who happen to spawn with mean mods.


..and Frozen Orb would still obliterate that thing, unless it also happens to be naturally Cold Immune. Sorceresses are kinda OP... the thing about the unique mobs, tho, is that you don't *have* to kill them. If they spawn with a set of properties you can't handle, you can lead them off into a corner somewhere and run away while they eat your mercenary/a pet/your Shadow Duplicate/whatever. You do have to go through the Act Bosses. If you can't kill those, you are simply stuck.

[Winthur]

Probably not. You'd likely only find frustration there. And that's without some of the bugged/just hilariously unfair fights; if you're having trouble with Normal bosses the Hell versions of them are going to crush you.

Honestly I found that the most important thing about Hell difficulty is having resistances and, if you're untwinked, having a way to deal damage independent of items (Fire Claws Werebear does better than Maul, Berserker has a ton of natural damage that a Frenzy barb might not have, etc). You don't necessarily have to grind levels if you've been full clearing all areas in previous acts and difficulties.

As I mentioned before a Summoner Necro with properly allocated stats doesn't even need any items whatsoever making him the safest playthrough in the game.

Hell isn't honestly that hard, and it also depends on what do you use your characters for. If you have a pure MF sorc (usually Blizzard) for the item grinding then you don't even have to do anything past Mephisto. For other characters it's usually a matter of having resistances and being decently smart about fights.

[Derjuin]

Another safe build for Hell mode is a Death-Trapsin. You use maxed out Death Sentry/Firebomb for damage, Mind Blast for lightning immune packs or anything that ambushes you and Shadow Master to tank like a champ. Toss in a few Cloak of Shadows at the right time, and enemies will practically be begging you to kill them.

You don't even need to pre-make your gear. On top of it all, the build is Hardcore-viable as well, with Fade for when you need tons of resistances and Burst of Speed for when you have them maxed out from gear.

[nooblade]

As I mentioned before a Summoner Necro with properly allocated stats doesn't even need any items whatsoever making him the safest playthrough in the game.

= 100% Vitality?

I did fine with one of those. Hehe, a hardcore naked guardian. I used many townportals though; it works about as good as an item with teleport charges except you have to go to town and back first. I used Dim Vision too, exploiting it with lots of skillpoints so that enemies off screen would never "wake up" and attack all together. Has someone gone over that already? It made everything too easy however.

I'm surprised that people are still playing. Good for you! I don't think I want to, although there were some modest builds I wanted to try which I haven't. Like SSoG's Fearazon for example.

[willpell]

(naturally some hardcore players Pat/Mat their characters with self-imposed challenges)

Pat/Mat? :smallconfused:

[Derjuin]

Pat/Mat? :smallconfused:

My guess would be "achieve Patriarch/Matriarch", which basically means kill Baal on hell mode. Hardcore has different titles than Softcore, though; on Hardcore, you'd earn "Guardian" for that.

[Hubert]

So basically what you're telling me is that, relatively casual and less than competent player I am, I shouldn't ever even try to play Hell.

Well, congratulations. i was trying to talk myself out of staying up past my bedtime to play today, and you've successfully persuaded me to refrain. (Not that I'm in Hell difficulty of course, but still, the mood is soured.)

It was not my intention to discourage you. But it remains true that succeeding in hell difficulty requires some game mastery/tests/forum crawls in order to find efficient builds.


I swear I dont remember any of that, and I made it to just outside the worldstone keep in hell. Of course, that was several patches ago, it may have gotten busted since then. I think I recall the snakes themselves though, I just dont remember the insta gib.

The Tomb Vipers do not spawn each time, and if you kill them fast enough (and from far away) they are not that deadly. But characters like WW-barbarians or zealadin will have more difficulties.


Sorceresses are kinda OP...

I do not think so. Sorceresses still have many immunity problems in hell, unlike characters like the hammerdin, summoning necromancer and tornado-druid. I agree though that sorc are natural boss-runners, as bosses never have immunities, and the sorc have easy access to teleport and static field.


Hell isn't honestly that hard, and it also depends on what do you use your characters for. If you have a pure MF sorc (usually Blizzard) for the item grinding then you don't even have to do anything past Mephisto. For other characters it's usually a matter of having resistances and being decently smart about fights.

Hell difficulty often depends on the character. As you said, for caster it is usually doable with just a good build and some smart playing. But if you want to try a barb or a bowazon, you will need a decent stuff in order to progress.

[Winthur]

Hell difficulty often depends on the character. As you said, for caster it is usually doable with just a good build and some smart playing. But if you want to try a barb or a bowazon, you will need a decent stuff in order to progress.

True, casters have it easier if only because they do not have stuff like AR. However even on physical characters there are skillsets that minimize the need for great equipment. I mean, Kicksin, Javazon, Berserker, Tesladin, Fireclaws Werebear are on the easier side of untwinked characters. Good thing you can upgrade weapons in the Horadric Cube, too (upped Bonesnap ftw)

(Speaking of bowazons -- I loved the Rogue in Diablo 1, never could replicate her in Diablo 2 because untwinked bowazons just seem to suck. :smallfrown: That, and they start off really, really slowly as characters.)

[nooblade]

(Speaking of bowazons -- I loved the Rogue in Diablo 1, never could replicate her in Diablo 2 because untwinked bowazons just seem to suck. :smallfrown: That, and they start off really, really slowly as characters.)

If you're willing to respecialize, the easiest early skill for Amazons (sort of like how Holy Fire makes Paladins easier but leads to respec.) is Magic Arrow. By the time you will want to rely on it instead of your normal attack, the mana cost will shrink to near-zero. However, it won't do as much for winning the game as Holy Fire (the aura would kill the imps in act 5--that was great), later on it would just be some extra damage without costing arrows. I think I've done that once or twice for the very early game. Maybe it's better than starting the game with Khalim's Will, I forget.

You most likely won't have much by the time you reach Duriel. Maybe plan to use Charged Strike at that point instead, and then spend your respec later; I remember CS being the best damage at that point regardless of gear. Other than max damage, I think you'd just have to handle it the boring way, standing there and kicking shins with that big, nasty, cold, demon-bug.

I remember one way to kill bosses was to spam Guided Arrow quickly and have lots of crushing blow gear. Strafe would be the same if you could be sure you hit. Crushing blow doesn't have the minimum health drop that Static Field does, it works for much longer for more damage than most skills except the Charged Strike.

Another problem with 'zons is you're usually going to be worried about AR. Projectiles don't Pierce through enemies unless they hit first (Guided Arrow doesn't pierce at all anymore--not that it wasn't a little silly when it did). A Conviction source would be extra fun for you. So yeah, I'd say you need gear unless you have a Conviction Paladin friend of some kind (Templar, Avenger, Charger, ...?) to help.

Heh, what am I doing? Offering advice about a game I haven't played in years.

[Hubert]

True, casters have it easier if only because they do not have stuff like AR. However even on physical characters there are skillsets that minimize the need for great equipment. I mean, Kicksin, Javazon, Berserker, Tesladin, Fireclaws Werebear are on the easier side of untwinked characters. Good thing you can upgrade weapons in the Horadric Cube, too (upped Bonesnap ftw)

Technically, javazons are casters according to me :-) They usually prefer +skills than %Enhanced Damage.

Regarding bowazon, you absolutely need a good bow and lot of attack speed to be effective. A good bow meaning both high damage and a high base attack speed so that the number of fpa (frames per attack) is easy to lower. Crossbow are usually poor choices, because their attack speed is too slow. With a good gear, it is even possible to play no-vitality bowazon: 0 in vitality, everything in dexterity for additional damage.

For those who are intersted in additional character optimization, I recommend this Weapon Speed Calculator (http://diablo2.ingame.de/tips/calcs/weaponspeed.php?lang=english). It is very useful to know exactly how much IAS (Increased Attack Speed) you need to reach a specific breakpoint, depending on your character, gear and skills.


Heh, what am I doing? Offering advice about a game I haven't played in years.

You are not alone here :smalltongue:

[willpell]

Good thing you can upgrade weapons in the Horadric Cube, too (upped Bonesnap ftw)

I have done this twice with unique items, and both times the result became unusable at anything vaguely resembling my current level; unable to spare stash space to keep the resulting exceptional basically forever, I simply sold it. This particularly hurt in the case of my barbarian (two axes), whose merc had The Patriarch (unique greatsword or flamberge or something) but couldn't wield its exceptional version...I not only had to ditch a unique item, which always hurts (and I'm having to do it very often as i play more on higher levels; set items too, which is even worse), but since I no longer had an awesome 2H sword, I had no reason to keep the barbarian merc (who'd been doing all my tanking for me since my own Barb was a piece of suck, designed mostly to Find Item rather than to fight), and switched to a Rogue since I happened to have a tolerably decent bow which I'd just found.

(PS: what's AR?)


Maybe it's better than starting the game with Khalim's Will, I forget.

*jawdrop* ???? wat

[tyckspoon]

(PS: what's AR?)


Attack Rating. It's the value that determines if you can actually hit anything with a non-spell attack. You need pretty significant values of it to make an effective weapon-using build; fortunately most decent skills come with hefty AR bonuses. It's a headache if you want to make a non-traditional fighter, tho, or if you're using one of the skills that *doesn't* have an AR bonus attached. (Spells are basically hit-box intersection- if the projectile graphic hits the enemy graphic, it hits. Just one of the many ways Diablo II favors casters.)



*jawdrop* ???? wat
Craft the Khalim's Will, mule it to somebody else. It's a ridiculously good low-level weapon and it has no requirements to use; it'll pretty much single-handedly allow you to get a character through to the point where they have enough levels to use their own skills. The only tricky part is making sure you can still access Mephisto.. which is probably easier to do in a multiplayer environment than the single-player game. If you wanted to do it in single-player, you'd probably have to just create a character specifically to clear the early Acts in Normal, make the Will, and then shove it in ATMA or a similar muling program and just accept that that's where that particular character is going to stop. Or figure out how to multi-'box' into a self-hosted LAN game so the character carrying the Will can use the map of a character who has already cleared the Act, allowing the first character to get to and activate the final Waypoint.

[willpell]

Attack Rating.

Oh. thud Right...that. Couldn't possibly have figured that one out on my own.


Craft the Khalim's Will, mule it to somebody else.

Ah, okay. I thought you were saying there was a way to get it in single-player without a "cheat" (forgive the term) program, hence the jawdrop. Being able to break the game with extranormal techniques such as Battlenetting or ATMA is potentially enjoyable, but not impressive on the level I was thinking there.

[Hubert]

Attack Rating. It's the value that determines if you can actually hit anything with a non-spell attack. You need pretty significant values of it to make an effective weapon-using build; fortunately most decent skills come with hefty AR bonuses. It's a headache if you want to make a non-traditional fighter, tho, or if you're using one of the skills that *doesn't* have an AR bonus attached. (Spells are basically hit-box intersection- if the projectile graphic hits the enemy graphic, it hits. Just one of the many ways Diablo II favors casters.)

Let us add that AR depends on your character's dexterity. The % chance of hitting an enemy depends on the AR and other parameters as follows:


Chance to Hit: 100 * AR / (AR + DR) * 2 * alvl / (alvl + dlvl)

where AR = Attack Rating of Attacker; DR = Defense Rating of Defender; alvl = Level of Attacker; dlvl = Level of Defender.

You can check your hit chance by hovering the mouse on the AR number in your character sheet. If you do not hit often enough, you can either

* Increase your level.
* Increase the level of your attack skill (if it gives you AR).
* Find gear with bonus to AR.
* Put some points in dexterity.

A quick and effective solution to AR problems is to use the amulet and ring of the Angelic set. Both items are easy to find, even in normal play, have a very low requirement (required level 12), and the ring gives you a nice bonus to AR based on your character level.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ah, okay. I thought you were saying there was a way to get it in single-player without a "cheat" (forgive the term) program, hence the jawdrop. Being able to break the game with extranormal techniques such as Battlenetting or ATMA is potentially enjoyable, but not impressive on the level I was thinking there.

Wait... using one of the most advertised features of a game is 'extranormal'?

Going onto Battle.net was one of the enormous draws for D2. I, personally, despised the concept, considering how much griefing went on, but hey... Blizzard tried their best to make it a selling point anyways.

I can, in theory, understand not wanting to use mule programs. Personally, I figure I could just do the same thing with a buddy on battle.net, if I ever cared to bother with it, so I have no compunction against using it. It isn't giving me free stuff, just letting me transfer items over.

[willpell]

You can check your hit chance by hovering the mouse on the AR number in your character sheet.

Only for the latest monster that you attacked.


A quick and effective solution to AR problems is to use the amulet and ring of the Angelic set. Both items are easy to find, even in normal play, have a very low requirement (required level 12), and the ring gives you a nice bonus to AR based on your character level.

I don't believe I've ever seen those set items. Though I have had at least three, probably four characters find Cathan's ring, and have also seen Civerb's amulet. Though I think my record for the set item that shows up most often is Isenhart's Lightbrand; I have two characters wielding it and a third which stuck it on his Iron Wolf (useless since they never attack, but at least it meant I could avoid throwing a set item away).


Wait... using one of the most advertised features of a game is 'extranormal'?

I can, in theory, understand not wanting to use mule programs. Personally, I figure I could just do the same thing with a buddy on battle.net, if I ever cared to bother with it, so I have no compunction against using it. It isn't giving me free stuff, just letting me transfer items over.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to do, but it is an exploit of sorts. There is a quantum leap of difference in what your character can be with this option, versus what they can be without, akin to the way Gestalt characters in D&D make non-Gestalt characters look somewhat pathetic by comparison. I generally minimize my use of such "eclipsing" options so as to delay the rate at which I become jaded with things; it's a way of being frugal with my joie de vivre. Though it's also a bit of sour grapes for the fact that BN only lets me have 8 characters and doesn't allow importing/exporting to single player; if I had that option I probably wouldn't hesitate to use it. (I will eventually try ATMA, but I worry about it destabilizing my old and creaky computer, so for now I'll continue to live without.)

[nooblade]

Yeah, I'd agree that Khalim's Will is a little cheap, but most people I've encountered reach a point where early parts of the game don't seem like part of the "real game" to them and they want to get on with it. I never reached the point where I wanted to be rushed into act 4 in hell difficulty and powerlevel in the Chaos Sanctuary, but I remember seeing it. You could have a level 80 character with all quests done within a few hours if you wanted, and had some willing friends. I guess for that kind of player the only interesting thing anymore is PvP? Bnet was pretty wild around mid-endlife. And then the high rune duping--so frequent that the drop rate for those things didn't matter anymore.

I wonder if Blizzard will ever pull the plug on D2. Also I wonder if D2 is still as laggy as I remember.

Oh and with Character Screens. Oftentimes they will lie to you, especially about chances to hit things. Better to trust the calculators.

[willpell]

I never reached the point where I wanted to be rushed into act 4 in hell difficulty and powerlevel in the Chaos Sanctuary, but I remember seeing it. You could have a level 80 character with all quests done within a few hours if you wanted, and had some willing friends. I guess for that kind of player the only interesting thing anymore is PvP?

That is pretty much exactly my worst nightmare, getting to that point in the game. I'd rather just quit playing altogether than ever feel like there's that little enjoyment left in it, but still go for that. Just my personal feelings, of course; if you feel that way (for any value of "you"), well, it's your game. I just wouldn't ever want to be in your place.


And then the high rune duping--so frequent that the drop rate for those things didn't matter anymore.

Now that on the other hand I wouldn't mind. I get that making things somewhat rare keeps them special, but to me the correct point of rarity is about where gems and low-level runes are. I always sit up and notice when an Ort or an Ith or even an El drops; they're not super-rare, but they've yet to become insignificant to even my highest-level characters, if only because every El is 1/3 of an Eld and 1/9 of a Tir and so forth. But I've never even seen an Io, and it's only the halfway point of the total of 33 runes you've got to choose from; except for one lucky Fal, the rest are a complete mystery to me. And the topmost rune, Zod, particularly annoys me because making a weapon indestructible (and thus making something like an ethereal axe not be 99.8% useless and not even worth selling) seems like too basically useful a function to restrict so hard.


I wonder if Blizzard will ever pull the plug on D2.

I really, really hope not. What I wish they would do is release another expansion to de-stagnantify (shaddup thassa woid) the game...make items useful that are currently useless, freshen up the enemy pool, ideally even provide a couple more characters to choose from, and add synergies to create new viable builds for existing chars. I'd go so far as to add new rewards for currently-silly quests (I always feel bad when I fetch the Gidbinn and go talk to Asheara, only to have nothing happen because that quest doesn't have a reward anymore now that you keep your mercenaries - not that this isn't a good thing of course). And possibly flesh out Hell into a full level, with 8 waypoints and 6 quests (and give those two idiots in the Fortress some dialogue), though of course that delays reaching Baal so it's maybe not a good idea. But on the other hand it feels kinda stupid that Hell is about the size of Camp Snoopy, given how huge the acts before and after it are.

[Traab]

What I always loved about the attack rating was doing the mouse over and seeing say, "95% chance to hit skeleton" Then attacking a skeleton and missing three swings in a row. God I hated seeing that, it always made me think the stat was basically a lie.

[hajo]

Craft the Khalim's Will, mule it to somebody else. It's a ridiculously good low-level weapon and it has no requirements to use; it'll pretty much single-handedly allow you to get a character through to the point where they have enough levels to use their own skills.
The only tricky part is making sure you can still access Mephisto..
True, but collecting all the parts for Khalim's Will is tedious.
The hellforge-hammer also makes a nice starting melee-weapon, and you can get it with a single trip thru the flame-river in act 4.
Just leave that quest open, and you can get as many as you like...

Other nice, regular starting weapons would be short bow and spiked club, each with sockets, filled with chipped gems, e.g. blue-yellow-green.

To twink a sorc, get her a staff with firebolt + icebolt + warmth, and another one with frostarmor (for switch). Also a helm with blue gems for mana. Orb + shield (with mana) also works.

For necro, a wand with raise-skeletons + skeleton-mastery + amp damage, and another wand with bonearmor. Add heads at lv 3.

For paladin, a scepter with might+3 would be nice for starters. Bonus if it also has AR/MaxDamage/sockets.

Add a belt (3 rows of potions), a breastplate (needs 30 str) with 3 sockets (e.g. with red gems for life), rings (AR/MaxDamage, FasterCast/Energy/Mana), some charms (damage, resists, life), and act 1 should be quite easy...

Also, the viper amulet from act 2 is nice, it gives life and mana. One drops for each player in the game, but only one is needed to make the staff to open duriel. So the surplus can be muled away. Same for cube...

Give etherial helm&armor to merc: better stats, and they don't get damaged when used by them.

All this can be shopped/collected with little trouble by a char that is slightly ahead :smallwink:

Some useful set-items for low-ish levels:
* Arctic armor (lv 2), rest of set less useful / higher requirements
* Infernal set (lv 5, wand gives necro-skills)
* Sigon set (lv 6, str 60)
* Isenhart set (lv 8)
* Angelic set (lv 12)

[Derjuin]

I'm pretty sure the game is telling me to play a Paladin now. After finding various awesome low level items for one, I happened upon a Herald of Zakarum from Nightmare Baal. Various noises similar to this were made (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csO8_NCaYFI)*.

*Warning: Contains traces of pony

[Traab]

I'm pretty sure the game is telling me to play a Paladin now. After finding various awesome low level items for one, I happened upon a Herald of Zakarum from Nightmare Baal. Various noises similar to this were made (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csO8_NCaYFI)*.

*Warning: Contains traces of pony

Heh, go right ahead. Then watch as nothing but sorc gear drops or something. I am sure a lot of it is just our minds latching onto the crappy worthless drops and such, but I swear at times the game seems designed to piss you off. It seems like everything spawns precisely in a way meant to negate your talent line, freaking AWESOME gear drops, but its for some other class, oh, and nightmare/hell always spawns with immunities to your damage type.

[Hubert]

Heh, go right ahead. Then watch as nothing but sorc gear drops or something. I am sure a lot of it is just our minds latching onto the crappy worthless drops and such, but I swear at times the game seems designed to piss you off. It seems like everything spawns precisely in a way meant to negate your talent line, freaking AWESOME gear drops, but its for some other class, oh, and nightmare/hell always spawns with immunities to your damage type.

Obvious solution: play many characters, at least one of each class :smalltongue:

With Diablo 2, I loved the fact that some builds rely on one or two very specific items. Hey I found a Wolfhowl (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Wolfhowl)! I could try to build a wolfbarb! At last I managed to create a Lawbringer (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Lawbringer_Rune_Word) phase blade. Time to try a Lawbringer kicksin.

[Traab]

Obvious solution: play many characters, at least one of each class :smalltongue:

With Diablo 2, I loved the fact that some builds rely on one or two very specific items. Hey I found a Wolfhowl (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Wolfhowl)! I could try to build a wolfbarb! At last I managed to create a Lawbringer (http://diablo.wikia.com/wiki/Lawbringer_Rune_Word) phase blade. Time to try a Lawbringer kicksin.

Yeah, that would work better for me if I had those shared stash add ons.

[Derjuin]

Actually now that I think about it, I cannot make up my mind between Herald of Zakarum and a Spirit paladin shield with at least +30 all resistances. One offers more defense, +2 combat skills/paladin skills and block value, but the other has faster cast rate and a whopping 55% FHR.

[Mystic Muse]

I've restarted this and was hoping for some advice on a Paladin. I know there's supposedly a commonly accepted "Really good" build, but I have no idea what it is.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've restarted this and was hoping for some advice on a Paladin. I know there's supposedly a commonly accepted "Really good" build, but I have no idea what it is.

There's several.

1) Tesladin. Zeal + Holy Shock (with further levels into Resist Lightning for synergy bonuses). Deals thousands of damage, most of it Lightning.

2) Avenger. Vengeance + Conviction. Not as much damage output, and higher mana drain, but absolutely guaranteed to do damage to ANYTHING it runs across. Maybe not much sometimes, but some in all conditions can be better than running into mobs immune to you.

3) Hammerdain. Fist of the Gods. Rinse, wash, repeat.

3) Chargadin. Charge does stun mobs, so spamming it can be fun.

[Mystic Muse]

There's several.

1) Tesladin. Zeal + Holy Shock (with further levels into Resist Lightning for synergy bonuses). Deals thousands of damage, most of it Lightning.

2) Avenger. Vengeance + Conviction. Not as much damage output, and higher mana drain, but absolutely guaranteed to do damage to ANYTHING it runs across. Maybe not much sometimes, but some in all conditions can be better than running into mobs immune to you.

3) Hammerdain. Fist of the Gods. Rinse, wash, repeat.


Any specific suggestion between these three?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any specific suggestion between these three?

Depends on what you want to do.

Do you want to have high DPS? Tesladin

Do you want to be guaranteed that you can do damage to ANYTHING you run across? Avenger.

Do you want to be cheesy? Hammerdain.

[Mystic Muse]

Do you want to be cheesy? Hammerdain.

Why is Hammerdain cheesy?

It's been a very long time since I've played, and I didn't get very far when I did.

EDIT: Any advice on stats too?

[darksolitaire]

Hammerdin deals damage to anything that isn't immune to magic, and pre 1.13 it could deal damage to magic immune undead. There's like two different monster types who actually are immune to magic, both are in specific places in hell difficulty. Hammerdin is a caster, but it will easily get good defensive stats (for getting 75% block chance and +3 hp per point of constitution). Vigor aura and Charge give nice movement, and auras overall give good amount of utility.

As for stats: Strength for Hammerdin will be around ~100 at the end, depending on specific pieces of armor you want to equip. Enough points to dexterity to get 75% block chance after buffing with Holy shield. No points are needed for mana, but if you're using respec you could put points in there at the beginning of the game if you're running out of mana too much. Everything else goes into constitution. Hammerdin "comes online" at late thirties.

My favorite paladin is Zealot, which combines Zeal with Fanatic aura. Unlike Tesladin, it requires good weapon though. But it's still better then paladins using single target attack for lazy people like me.:smallsmile:

[Hubert]

Why is Hammerdain cheesy?

It's been a very long time since I've played, and I didn't get very far when I did.

EDIT: Any advice on stats too?

Hammerdins (the paladins using Blessed Hammers + Concentration) may be considered cheesy because they are a bit OP. The pros/cons of the hammerdin are:

+ Lots and lots of damage.
+ Damage type is magical, so there are only a handful of monsters that are immune to it. Basically, you rarely need to rely on an alternate attack.
+ Good tank, high survivability.
+ Not too dependent on the gear.
+ Good in PvM and PvP.

- Take some time to get used to the weird trajectory of the hammers.
- You can really start to play as a hammerdin around level 30. Below, your skills are not developped enough, and you will have mana problems.
- Can be played without teleport, but unlock its true potential with Enigma, the (expensive) runeword.
- Cramped spaces (e.g. Maggot Lair) are a real pain if you do not have teleport.
- Cannot kill Uber-Tristram on its own.
- Gameplay a bit repetitive (YMMV).

Concerning the list of possible paladins, I would add to Shneekey's list:

* The paladin using Smite, and its many variations (Smite + Fist of Heaven,...). Mainly used in PvP and for killing Uber-Tritram.

* The auradin, similar to the tesladin, but based on using Holy Fire/Holy Shock auras from items so that you can combine it with your Conviction aura.

Most of the time the optimum stat allocation at high level is:

Strength: the minimum required to carry your gear. More strength increases physical damage (e.g. using Zeal), but you will also need survivability, which means Dex+Vita.
Dexterity: enough to reach the 75% block with your Holy Shield active. Holy Shield allows you to reach the 75% block without too much points in dexterity, so every paladin should have it.
Vitality: everything. You never have enough life.
Energy: nothing (yes, even for a hammerdin). At high level, you have plenty of ways to replenish your mana (mercenary with Insight, Redemption or Meditation aura,...), so each point in energy is a point that does not help you to kill faster or survive longer.

Of course, this is a bit theoretical. Depending on your gear/personnal preferences, you will need to modify the stat allocation. In my experience, when you reach mid-high level (level > 50), the allocation presented above is a good guideline to follow.

[hajo]

I've restarted this and was hoping for some advice on a Paladin. I know there's supposedly a commonly accepted "Really good" build, but I have no idea what it is.

Take a look at some guides / build-guides, e.g.:
* AmazonBasin (http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/d2_guides.php)
* BaronsBazaar (http://www.baronsbazaar.ca/forums/index.php?showforum=34) "D2 - Old Town"
* DiabloWiki (http://www.diablowiki.com/Class_Builds_%28Diablo_II%29)
* Diablo2 - Guides (http://www.diablo2.com/forum/diablo-2-guides-f15.html)

(PvM=Player-vs-Monster = PvE=Player-vs-Environment, PvP=Player-vs-Player, LLD=Low-Level-Duelling)

Should be taken with some grains of salt, as some of those guides take for granted easy access to the "bestest items", like Enigma, Shako, Stone-of-Jordan, Maras, Torch, Anni, Arachnid-Mesh, War-Travellers, Rainbow-Jewels, Heart-of-the-Oak, Call-to-Arms, Chain-of-Honor, Spirit, Insight, Fortitude, Breath-of-the-Dying, Grief, Last-Wish etc. etc.
Some of them also don't bother to tell you how to reach lv 65+, so you can start using all those toys :smallamused:

If you don't already have a lot of those (or want to spend real money on), look for builds with "does not depend heavyly on items" :smallbiggrin:

[willpell]

Well, my level 49 paladin managed to go toe-to-toe with Nightmare Duriel and kill him in one shot without either him or his hireling dying; I guess at least one of my characters has managed to turn out right. Also, I now have a sorceress wearing Sigon's Visor; this makes me happier than it should.

I'm irritated with those who advised me on my Druid build, both because of the previously mentioned Hunger fiasco, and because they advocated Battle Frenzy (the level 30 werewolf skill that multi-attacks, I keep mixing up the names of that and the level 6 or 12 version which steals life). Jab and Zeal are much lower level and I'm not sure why they make the werewolf wait until 30 to do this, but more to the point, when I ran into a Mana Burn monster, I discovered that unlike Rabies or Fire Claws, Battle Frenzy does not perform a normal attack if you don't have mana when you attempt it, it just doesn't do anything. Which means that if a Mana Burn monster walks up and smacks me in the face, not only do I take a bunch of damage, but my werewolf stands there looking stupid while I try to attack with the skill I sunk 6 skill points into. There is simply no way to avoid having this happen, and if I'd had any idea it was going to, I would never have used this skill at all, since it doesn't do anything terribly interesting anyway. Between this and Hunger, I think the designers just wanted werewolves to suck.

Had an odd glitch with my Assassin, wonder if anyone else has noticed it. When my Shadow Master uses Mind Blast and converts enemies to our side, sometimes they start attacking me before the little swirly symbol that indicates they've converted disappears. So they're whaling on me for a couple of seconds, but I still can't attack them because they still register as friendlies. It eventually fixes itself, but still, annoying. Makes me glad this Assassin is desinged to stay well away from the front lines (Blade Fury is amazing). I wish the Shadow Master could be programmed not to use certain skills when they're problematic; I worry about her using the martial arts Meteor while I'm fighting the Night Lords in Travincal, and me dodging to avoid her attacks....could be a bit of a nuisance. Though if she ever uses Cloak of Shadows on a wide-open plain in the middle of the day, I'll probably just quit.

[Winthur]

Jab and Zeal are much lower level and I'm not sure why they make the werewolf wait until 30 to do this

Probably balance reasons or whatever. It's not terribly important because until level 30 you deal decent damage and have the support of the magnificent Feral Rage skill, and Lycanthropy boosts your Life nicely.


I discovered that unlike Rabies or Fire Claws, Battle Frenzy does not perform a normal attack if you don't have mana when you attempt it, it just doesn't do anything. Which means that if a Mana Burn monster walks up and smacks me in the face, not only do I take a bunch of damage, but my werewolf stands there looking stupid while I try to attack with the skill I sunk 6 skill points into. There is simply no way to avoid having this happen, and if I'd had any idea it was going to, I would never have used this skill at all, since it doesn't do anything terribly interesting anyway. Between this and Hunger, I think the designers just wanted werewolves to suck.

Hunger isn't a skill that requires being maxed to work. A few points combined with +skills tend to work well for most builds. Do Werewolves suck? I highly doubt that. You just put all your skills into Hunger instead of important stuff like Lycanthropy (would prolong your survivability), Feral Rage (would prolong your survivability) or Fury (would let you deal more damage). Werewolf itself as a skill isn't that great to max. Oh sure, Fury is bugged. If fighting a Mana Burn monster just have LPM on Attack and RPM on Fury. No problem. Find an item with Crushing Blow (Ribcracker is a personal favorite) and crush enemies with it.


I wish the Shadow Master could be programmed not to use certain skills when they're problematic; I worry about her using the martial arts Meteor while I'm fighting the Night Lords in Travincal, and me dodging to avoid her attacks....could be a bit of a nuisance. Though if she ever uses Cloak of Shadows on a wide-open plain in the middle of the day, I'll probably just quit.

You can always use the lower level version of Shadow Master that I forgot the name of because she'll only use the skill you have chosen yourself.

[jedipilot24]

There's several.

1) Tesladin. Zeal + Holy Shock (with further levels into Resist Lightning for synergy bonuses). Deals thousands of damage, most of it Lightning.

2) Avenger. Vengeance + Conviction. Not as much damage output, and higher mana drain, but absolutely guaranteed to do damage to ANYTHING it runs across. Maybe not much sometimes, but some in all conditions can be better than running into mobs immune to you.

3) Hammerdain. Fist of the Gods. Rinse, wash, repeat.

3) Chargadin. Charge does stun mobs, so spamming it can be fun.

Don't forget the Zealot: Zeal+Fanaticism+Holy Shield (with points in Sacrifice and Defiance for synergies)

[Winthur]

Don't forget the Zealot: Zeal+Fanaticism+Holy Shield (with points in Sacrifice and Defiance for synergies)

Zealot is a pretty cool guy but I've found him to be very gear dependent to do damage. Without a good weapon you are in a pickle. Elemental sources like the Holy Shock aura do better in that regard. He however is one of the more fun characters if you can invest an Ist or two into the build.

[willpell]

Oh sure, Fury is bugged. If fighting a Mana Burn monster just have LPM on Attack and RPM on Fury. No problem.

Yes problem. I have the right button normally set to Werewolf so I can change back in case I un-change right in the middle of the fight. I also do all my summons with that button. The left button is set to whatever I attack with, and when anything other than Fury is there, it works fine, so I want to know why Fury doesn't. (I realize that the odds of a bugfix for a game this old are depressing.) If I see a mana burn monster coming, I can set up this configuration, but usually I don't get any warning, I just turn a corner and find 30 guys all swarming around me, beating my face, and thanks to a computer glitch I'm not beating back. Not fun.


Find an item with Crushing Blow (Ribcracker is a personal favorite) and crush enemies with it.

I have seen I believe six total instances of Crushing Blow among ALL the items I've ever seen in the course of playing more than forty different characters to levels as high as 52 over the years. You may be used to Battlenet and having the luxury of choice, but things are a little different for us single-player types. We just have to take whatever the computer's in the mood to give us.


You can always use the lower level version of Shadow Master that I forgot the name of because she'll only use the skill you have chosen yourself.

My lower-level Assassin will do just that, but this one is stuck, having already sunk 10-12 points into the skill and not having a respec to look forward to until Hell. And I don't get to give up my most advanced characters as wasted effort just because they have a slightly suboptimal build.

[Winthur]

I have seen I believe six total instances of Crushing Blow among ALL the items I've ever seen in the course of playing more than forty different characters to levels as high as 52 over the years. You may be used to Battlenet and having the luxury of choice, but things are a little different for us single-player types. We just have to take whatever the computer's in the mood to give us.

Given that I pointed out numerous times in this thread how I quit battle.net a while ago and focused on playing Single Player games, most if not all of my advice has been single player oriented and I even posted utility that allows you to have a more comfortable time playing, I frankly don't think the condescending tone is necessary. Also, luxury of choice? Please.
On Single Player, you get /players 8 to level up faster, you can save a map seed for easier boss running, muling is much easier with ATMA, and realms are never down.
And honestly, complaining about the unviability of your builds and playstyles when you yourself admitted that you don't even care is at the very least funny.

Seriously though. Crushing Blow is the bread & butter of an untwinked melee character - most Barbarians, characters like Kicksin or Smiter, etc. rely on it for killing bosses and other beefy monsters - and is found on numerous low tier items. Ribcracker is one - it's a staff. That doesn't mean I spend my character's lifetime on grinding nightmare Mephisto to get this one item. My successful, untwinked Berserker barb relied on Crushing Blow through the entire game and until finding Bonesnap he went for the AmnTir runeword on a Maul that gives CB and a plethora of other stats. Finding AmnTir is a triviality. That single Bonesnap is enough to let you go through the entire game if you just upgrade it in the Horadric Cube, and it's another low tier item. Werewolf also benefits from nice two-handers (Ribcracker, Bonesnap, etc.) just because his blocking speed is too slow to justify using a shield. More unique items such as Rattlecage or Gore Riders or Goblin Toe exist and they are all low-tier. And as you progress, there are even more runewords.

[Derjuin]

I don't really have a lot of experience with non-Zealot melee paladins; does anyone know if the Crescent Moon (http://i.imgur.com/LW3wm.png) runeword works well with the Tesladin?

[darksolitaire]

I don't really have a lot of experience with non-Zealot melee paladins; does anyone know if the Crescent Moon (http://i.imgur.com/LW3wm.png) runeword works well with the Tesladin?

Yes. It's the Tesladin weapon, unless you're swimming in high runes and have access to non-ethereal Infinity. Phase Blade works well as a base. Exceptional base would be best, as they don't have durability. Tesladin with Crescent Moon also wants as much crushing blow as possible from other items.

Friend played D2 with Jedi-barbarian that dual wielded two Crescent Moon phase blades. I wanted to repeat the feat while stacking as much cast-when-hit lightning spells from various items, but I never got around to doing it.

[Hubert]

Yes problem. I have the right button normally set to Werewolf so I can change back in case I un-change right in the middle of the fight. I also do all my summons with that button. The left button is set to whatever I attack with, and when anything other than Fury is there, it works fine, so I want to know why Fury doesn't. (I realize that the odds of a bugfix for a game this old are depressing.) If I see a mana burn monster coming, I can set up this configuration, but usually I don't get any warning, I just turn a corner and find 30 guys all swarming around me, beating my face, and thanks to a computer glitch I'm not beating back. Not fun.

Well you can use other attack skills, but using Fury (+Feral Rage that you refresh every few seconds) as the main attack skill is the optimum way to damage monsters. I never noticed the problem with Fury and mana burn. On the other hand, switching from one attack skill to the other (using hot keys) should be no problem for you. If you die during the 1~2 seconds it takes you to switch skills, then you have survivability problems.

On this topic, correctly managing 10 or more hotkeyed skills during heated battle is one of the key element to be an "efficient" player. I remember my very beginning, using the mouse to switch active skills (I was young at that time...), then starting to use the default hotkeys (F1, F2,...), and finally remapping the hotkeys to a more practical configuration. Ah the good old days...


You can always use the lower level version of Shadow Master that I forgot the name of because she'll only use the skill you have chosen yourself.

Shadow Warrior is the lower level version. Indeed, Shadow Masters can be quite infuriating sometimes. For instance, casting Cloak of Shadows when there is only a lone monster on screen, which makes it unavailable for you when you run into the next pack of Burning Souls. Or filling your screen with confusing and useless martial arts effects. However, it is sometimes very useful to have someone else taking damage instead of you.

[nooblade]

I remember the advantage to Shadow Warrior being that you could keep her using Fade instead of sometimes Burst of Speed.


Friend played D2 with Jedi-barbarian that dual wielded two Crescent Moon phase blades. I wanted to repeat the feat while stacking as much cast-when-hit lightning spells from various items, but I never got around to doing it.

One of my favorite Barbarian builds (that I've read about, not made) from 1.10 was like this and used Frenzy to great effect. Can you imagine a non-physical Frenzy Barbarian? Hehe. Get Iron Maiden'd and keep going just fine due to Dracul's Life Tap. Weapon switch for Lightning Immunes was dual Lawbringer Phase Blades. I think the only faster attack in the game is the Werebear Assassin one.

Tesladins work out similarly though.Tesladins are more sensibly defensive with holy shield and such. Frenzy is too intense for some people. I remember trying a Hardcore Frenzy Barbarian and people were ready to say I would die because they couldn't keep up with that walking speed.

You all are making me want to play again! Agh, and I was so happy with some free time.

[willpell]

Given that I pointed out numerous times in this thread how I quit battle.net a while ago and focused on playing Single Player games, most if not all of my advice has been single player oriented and I even posted utility that allows you to have a more comfortable time playing, I frankly don't think the condescending tone is necessary.

Fair enough, I do apologize there. I missed the pointing out you mentioned, but just assumed anybody who talks about these high-level items must be getting them off BN.


And honestly, complaining about the unviability of your builds and playstyles when you yourself admitted that you don't even care is at the very least funny.

To my way of thinking, it should be the game, not the playstyle, which adjusts. D2 is way too hard; I want it to be more of a beer-and-pretzels game, where the same high-level loot is dropped by far less fiendishly difficult monsters. I do want some challenge, or else I'd just keep replaying the Blood Moor. But when there is difficulty, I'd rather in came in the form of more of a puzzle, rather than a test of your ability to keep clicking Attack while drinking potions lest you die in 3 seconds.


Seriously though. Crushing Blow is the bread & butter of an untwinked melee character

I would define it as a low-level of "twinking"; it's not a standard weapon property, you can't just buy it from Charsi or Fara. Anything which you are not guaranteed to be able to get, you have to grind for, and I disapprove in general of grinding.


Finding AmnTir is a triviality.

Uh, yeah, no. Unless you're on BN and probably even then, runes are super-duper-ultra-rare. Even TirEl or NefTir is by no stretch easy to construct. Even my highest-level characters don't all have an Amn, and at least one does have Amns but hasn't managed to stumble across a Tir (nor three Elds nor nine Els). Every single rune that drops is a red-carpet event; playing for maybe a hundred hours and only seeing a couple dozen runes demonstrates that. Just this morning I played for like four hours and saw two runes. They could be four times as common as they are and I'd still regard them as somewhat rare.

What I wish is that I got gems and runes the way I get Super Health and Mana potions. Always I am up to my neck in those things; virtually every champion monster drops one of each, and I play in such a way as to minimize my need for them, but still need them enough that I have to pick them up (the Healing at least; Mana I mostly just sell since they're good for 500 a pop, and nobody needs 500 mana; even my sorceress only has 309 and doesn't wish she had more). Instead of having the game drop a boring utility item with such regularity, they should just have been available for sale.


That single Bonesnap is enough to let you go through the entire game if you just upgrade it in the Horadric Cube

I believe I mentioned that upgrading items invariably results in them having prerequisites I cannot meet.

[tyckspoon]

... and I disapprove in general of grinding.

:smallconfused:
Have you ever considered that perhaps Diablo is just not the game for you? The entire game is *built* on grinding for that lottery-winner drop. What is it you actually like about this game?

[hajo]

I have seen I believe six total instances of Crushing Blow among ALL the items I've ever seen in the course of playing more than forty different characters to levels as high as 52 over the years.
You may be used to Battlenet and having the luxury of choice, but things are a little different for us single-player types. We just have to take whatever the computer's in the mood to give us.

In single-player, you can have everything you want, real easy:
ATMA for muling, PlugY for big+shared stash, HeroEditor and item-collections with every armor/weapon/gem/rune.

[Derjuin]

Uh, yeah, no. Unless you're on BN and probably even then, runes are super-duper-ultra-rare. Even TirEl or NefTir is by no stretch easy to construct. Even my highest-level characters don't all have an Amn, and at least one does have Amns but hasn't managed to stumble across a Tir (nor three Elds nor nine Els). Every single rune that drops is a red-carpet event; playing for maybe a hundred hours and only seeing a couple dozen runes demonstrates that. Just this morning I played for like four hours and saw two runes. They could be four times as common as they are and I'd still regard them as somewhat rare.

The Countess is nearly guaranteed to drop runes every time you kill her; on Normal, she can drop up to Ral. On Nightmare, up to about...Io? I think? And on Hell she can drop Ist (although very rarely). Though, if you don't like grinding, then you're not going to be finding certain items without getting extremely lucky. Certain treasure classes (like TC 51, the one with Gilded Shields) are extremely crowded, and getting any one particular unique or set item out of them is rare without even figuring in Magic Find.

I'm not saying you shouldn't hate grinding, or should do it. However, *not* grinding is essentially adding another layer of challenge to an already Purist (no outside help) character. Not only do you lose out on potential extra levels to give you a cushion against later difficult quests (like Duriel), you also lose out on extra items that can have helpful abilities on them (life leech, +skills, crushing blow for melee, Faster Hit Recovery/Faster Cast Rate/Faster Block Rate).

Note that grinding does *not* have to be a serious affair. You don't need to go back and tirelessly turn over every stone, loot every chest and bash every baddy. Find an area you enjoy (for me, it's the River of Flame or Worldstone Keep) and just start killin' stuff. Don't worry about the drops, or the XP gain. If something drops that you like/need, or if you gain a level, great! If not, cool, you still killed some stuff and it was (hopefully) fun!

If not, it's still fine to not grind, just know that the game is actually made with some degree of farming in mind, and not doing so is actually a difficulty increase.


*EDIT*: It's been ages since I played single player. Do bosses and super-uniques (The Countess, Pindleskin, etc) stay dead after you kill them once or something?

[Winthur]

*EDIT*: It's been ages since I played single player. Do bosses and super-uniques (The Countess, Pindleskin, etc) stay dead after you kill them once or something?

You can regenerate the map seed (there's a way to do it externally, or you can just turn on a TCP/IP game for a second and the map will regenerate).




To my way of thinking, it should be the game, not the playstyle, which adjusts. D2 is way too hard; I want it to be more of a beer-and-pretzels game, where the same high-level loot is dropped by far less fiendishly difficult monsters.


I would define it as a low-level of "twinking"; it's not a standard weapon property, you can't just buy it from Charsi or Fara. Anything which you are not guaranteed to be able to get, you have to grind for, and I disapprove in general of grinding.

Well, but... it just isn't that kind of a game. It's still remotely relaxing and doesn't require a huge mental workout (unless you are HC, I guess), particularly once you know what you're doing, but if you actually want to progress and see your characters' grow, you're going about it the wrong way. Oh sure, there are people who play the game from start to finish clearing everything only once, but those usually know better how to build and are willing to use tactics. And usually they play casters.

Besides, you want the game to be challenging by giving you puzzles or otherwise exercising you, yet you refuse to beat tough monsters with tactics instead of brute force because it's "unnatural".



Uh, yeah, no. Unless you're on BN and probably even then, runes are super-duper-ultra-rare. Even TirEl or NefTir is by no stretch easy to construct. Even my highest-level characters don't all have an Amn, and at least one does have Amns but hasn't managed to stumble across a Tir (nor three Elds nor nine Els). Every single rune that drops is a red-carpet event; playing for maybe a hundred hours and only seeing a couple dozen runes demonstrates that. Just this morning I played for like four hours and saw two runes. They could be four times as common as they are and I'd still regard them as somewhat rare.

We are playing the same game. I do run Countess for runes but even now that my characters are late Normal or Nightmare, I swim in those low-level runes. Runes don't drop much in early normal. Perhaps the issue is that you don't really kill mobs fast (because inefficient fighting and/or lack of items).


What I wish is that I got gems and runes the way I get Super Health and Mana potions. Always I am up to my neck in those things; virtually every champion monster drops one of each, and I play in such a way as to minimize my need for them, but still need them enough that I have to pick them up (the Healing at least; Mana I mostly just sell since they're good for 500 a pop, and nobody needs 500 mana; even my sorceress only has 309 and doesn't wish she had more). Instead of having the game drop a boring utility item with such regularity, they should just have been available for sale.
Yeah except I'm afraid you're the only person that thinks so and that being able to use worthless Gold to buy a rune would be hard to balance. And it would cause grinding in a different way. Ever since Diablo 1, if I wanted to get a better item than what I'd currently had, I'd stockpile on gold and endlessly ran merchants until I found an item I desired (such as a +3 skills item for a caster). Now there are a ton of people who do the "Drognan Runs" in Act 2, imagine them doing the same for a chance to buy an Um, Ist or Gul for gold.


I believe I mentioned that upgrading items invariably results in them having prerequisites I cannot meet.

Yeah. But it's your problem, not mine.

[willpell]

:smallconfused:
Have you ever considered that perhaps Diablo is just not the game for you? The entire game is *built* on grinding for that lottery-winner drop. What is it you actually like about this game?

I play games of this sort (and to some extent games in general) for a sense of exploration and discovery, along with a sort of simple satisfaction that I get from point-click-kill or from unleasing a wave of magic which knocks dozens of enemies back or down (that part is a bit more specific to D2 itself). D2 offers me 7 character classes with skills that offer between 3-5 main build paths for each class to try out (amazon and sorceress have the least variety, barbarian and necromancer the most; paladin and sorceress are good for going on autopilot, druid is at least theoretically cool, so assassin and amazon work out to being my least favorite classes, apart from being fun to look at). I enjoy having interesting items drop and seeing what they can do; I very emphatically do not want to be required to have the rarest, hardest-to-find items in the game just to be able to complete the game.

With a 99-level progression, I think you should be able to beat Hell Baal at about level 60 or 70, with whatever you might happen to have at that time, and then spend the last 30-40 levels clearing the entire map and exploring every nook and cranny until all possibility of fun and innovation is drained from that particular character...and then you play a different one. Who will get other super-rare drops, hopefully not the exact same ones as before, and you can have another set of new discoveries and neat little moments with that one. (Of course, I'm being a trifle generous assuming that I can possibly sit through 47 more levels with my most advanced character, even over the course of the next five years or more. It's entirely likely it'll never happen, if Hell is as unbearably hard as you say.)


In single-player, you can have everything you want, real easy:
ATMA for muling, PlugY for big+shared stash, HeroEditor and item-collections with every armor/weapon/gem/rune.

I may eventually get to that point, but I'm extremely nervous about monkeying with the software, for fear of breaking something. I've invested so much effort into my character collection already that I'd take if very poorly if I managed to destroy them by messing with files and plugins that I don't really understand.


The Countess is nearly guaranteed to drop runes every time you kill her

The Forgotten Tower is five levels deep. You have to wander around on each of those floors until you stumble on the way down, wading through the same damn enemies all the way each time. Not something I can stand to do repeatedly. I would have a hard enough time "grinding" Fangskin on floor 2 of the Claw Viper Temple, even if there was a waypoint right there in the Valley of Snakes, because even one floor of a dungeon to have to hack my way through once per game is something I'm only likely to put up with for the sake of a boss fight that unlocks the next act.


Not only do you lose out on potential extra levels to give you a cushion against later difficult quests (like Duriel), you also lose out on extra items that can have helpful abilities on them (life leech, +skills, crushing blow for melee, Faster Hit Recovery/Faster Cast Rate/Faster Block Rate).

Frankly most of my characters have little trouble getting all of the abilities I consider essential (Prevent Monster Heal, Replenish Life, +Magic Find, Faster Run/Walk, very rarely +skills, assorted other stuff); in most cases there aren't enough slots on the character (or, for charms, space I can spare in inventory) for all the useful stuff I find. The things I really need are things the game won't give me - for instance, part of the reason that I die a lot is that the health orb is NOT a very useful display of your health total, and often I appear to be halfway full when suddenly the monster lands two good swings and I've taken like 300 damage, which as it turns out was all I had even though it looked like more. Even worse is the fact that health potions take time to have effect; no effect in the game ameliorates that issue, and Rejuve potions are way too rare to use outside of boss fights or occasional scrapes (though conversely, because I save all of them I find and they crowd out my inventory, I sometimes end up wasting them on normal fights where I run out of heal potions).

The game has a lot of enjoyable variety, but there are certain problems hard-wired into the chassis which just aren't easily fixed without completely changing (and, IMO, probably ruining) the look of the game. I think decreasing monster damage across the board would probably be the most effective and least invasive fix for my issues, as the game is much too thoroughly designed to provide challenge and danger for adrenaline gamers, and I'm just not one of those.

If the game had a Difficulty setting (apart from N/N/H, which is more like the game having 15 acts since you go through them in order, rather than just picking one to play) as many of them do, I would unquestionably always play on Easy, UNLESS the game was a b**** about it and restricted me to wimpy and boring gear as a result. Which is exactly what the effect of N/N/H, because even halfway-decent gear, let alone the best, doesn't drop until you rise to the challenge of the later acts and higher difficulties. I enjoy it when the game rewards me, but I don't feel the need to earn those rewards with commensurate risks; I'm just looking for cheap gratification, slaying monsters and collecting loot, rather than getting slain by monsters, having more loot than I can carry, or having to run half a mile from the waypoint back to my corpse every time I die faster than I can open a portal to escape - or, if I do escape, having to run back from the waypoint to the portal anyway lest I be swarmed and killed the moment I step out of the portal again.


*EDIT*: It's been ages since I played single player. Do bosses and super-uniques (The Countess, Pindleskin, etc) stay dead after you kill them once or something?

Within the same playsession, yeah, just like all monsters. Everything respawns upon a new game, except your Town Portal or all the items you forgot to pick up.

[pffh]

Willpell it sounds like Diablo one would be more to your liking, especially with the expansion. The normal game can be completed as any class with what you pick up on the way and the expansion adds the nightmare and hell difficulties (and another class, running in town and two new dungeons).

[tyckspoon]

The Forgotten Tower is five levels deep. You have to wander around on each of those floors until you stumble on the way down

If you're having to 'stumble' on the stairs in the Tower you're either not paying attention or you're putting way too much effort into full-clearing it every time you go in... follow the left-hand wall from where you come in and you'll get to the stairs down. They're pretty small levels; with decent Faster Run you can get from the first floor down to the fifth in 20-30 seconds. Sometimes takes longer to find the Tower itself on the main map than it does to go down, kill the Countess, and loot, which is a delay you never have to worry about if you're using the same single-player map each time.

[willpell]

I always clear any area along the way, in case I have to come back through it after dying with no gear (and, depending on character, no anything else except a hireling who doesn't stand where I want it to; characters that have skills that make them not item-dependent also tend to have squishy bodies that die in a gust of wind - my Sorc 37 got murdered the moment she stepped down the stairs into the line of fire of an archer group, there was literally like a second and a half to react and then I died, happened like three times before my lightning finally started to thin the herd).

The only thing I know about Diablo I is that you had to carry gold in your backpack like any other object, and that just sounds like it would annoy me. Plus, I do not own it, and have no particular intention to ever buy another computer game, as I have about fifty already, half of which I've never even played.

[Traab]

Its really not that big of an effort required. There is generally a single named mob and minions, and maybe a few short squads of trash per floor, and the floors are tiny. The longest part of it is when you decide to collect all the freaking gobs of cash lying around. Heck, sometimes there isnt even a named mob on every floor.

However, I will agree that grinding is not a lot of fun. Why do I play the game? Because I like to see how strong my character will get. I like to see him progress into something that kicks ass and takes names. I dont like running countess 50x hoping for specific runes to drop.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's also a named in Act V at the second checkpoint, a couple of them actually. You can hit the named at that checkpoint, then backtrack to the named with the whip. Both have good chance of dropping useful loot, and it's really quick, like maybe ten minutes top.

[Winthur]

The only thing I know about Diablo I is that you had to carry gold in your backpack like any other object, and that just sounds like it would annoy me. Plus, I do not own it, and have no particular intention to ever buy another computer game, as I have about fifty already, half of which I've never even played.

To be fair, Diablo I does really seem like it would be more your style. It's archaic, and granted, it's even more punishing if you don't know what you're doing, but honestly there are three playstyles for Diablo:
1: Sorcerers - difficult early levels, becomes relaxing roflstomper later on that blows everything up, perfect for Lazarus runs
2: Rogues - well-rounded difficulty, does well in clearing Hell/Hell (no physical immunities, range against Succubi and Mages)
3: Warriors - masochists that love being abused by Hell monsters (and honestly my favourite class :smalltongue: Dealing with Advocates sucks, but soloing Blood Knight armies is fun)
You could just play a Sorcerer and have monsters blow up from a Fireball or Chain Lighting while wearing next to no gear.


D2 offers me 7 character classes with skills that offer between 3-5 main build paths for each class to try out (amazon and sorceress have the least variety, barbarian and necromancer the most;

I'm not sure if you understand the game too well. Sorceress has the least variety in build paths? Firewall builds, Energy Shield, Meteorb, Blizzballer, FO/CL, Enchantress and more. Necromancer's build variety is questionable because in their core most necromancers rely on Corpse Explosion to deal damage; it's the means of setting up the chain reaction that differ (Bonemancer or Summoner, pick whatever), most players don't differ much in their use of curses.

(Of course, I'm being a trifle generous assuming that I can possibly sit through 47 more levels with my most advanced character, even over the course of the next five years or more. It's entirely likely it'll never happen, if Hell is as unbearably hard as you say.)

Hell to me was always a matter of preparation. It's a bit of a different game. It requires resistances at a decent level and usually a way to deal damage. Physical damaging people, if you got them this far, will probably be desperate for more advanced weaponry, so I hope you either got a really good beatstick or your skillset relies on magic or elemental damage and associated on-hit effects (Fireclaws, Holy Shock, Holy Freeze...). But honestly - it's not "unbearably hard" and doesn't necessarily require grinding beforehand, though it certainly helps and makes it more comfortable.


I very emphatically do not want to be required to have the rarest, hardest-to-find items in the game just to be able to complete the game.

You have never seen any of the "rarest, hardest-to-find" items in the game. Compare the popular "shako" (Harlequin's Crest) to a behemoth of a runeword called Breath of the Dying. Shako can drop as early as Nightmare Mephisto or even earlier, yet it gives a ton of good stats and is considered as one of the best mid-tier helmets in the entire game. Breath of the Dying is a huge item that I haven't ever assembled, and I believe most of the tryhard Battle.net brethren would never have the item if the runes weren't dupes. People can definitely beat the entire game from start to finish untwinked, and they often play with bad items.



I may eventually get to that point, but I'm extremely nervous about monkeying with the software, for fear of breaking something. I've invested so much effort into my character collection already that I'd take if very poorly if I managed to destroy them by messing with files and plugins that I don't really understand.

I believe you can simply save your characters somewhere else before tinkering with them.


The Forgotten Tower is five levels deep.
Each level is really small. Often, if you are a Sorceress, you can just teleport over a wall and immediately end up at the exit to the next level.


If the game had a Difficulty setting (apart from N/N/H, which is more like the game having 15 acts since you go through them in order, rather than just picking one to play) as many of them do, I would unquestionably always play on Easy, UNLESS the game was a b**** about it and restricted me to wimpy and boring gear as a result. Which is exactly what the effect of N/N/H, because even halfway-decent gear, let alone the best, doesn't drop until you rise to the challenge of the later acts and higher difficulties. I enjoy it when the game rewards me, but I don't feel the need to earn those rewards with commensurate risks; I'm just looking for cheap gratification, slaying monsters and collecting loot, rather than getting slain by monsters, having more loot than I can carry, or having to run half a mile from the waypoint back to my corpse every time I die faster than I can open a portal to escape - or, if I do escape, having to run back from the waypoint to the portal anyway lest I be swarmed and killed the moment I step out of the portal again.

See, I can't shake off the idea that you're complaining about a game being too hard or having design flaws when you kinda don't put in the effort to either brute force through the game by grinding or figuring out tactics to deal with monsters. If your style of playing is to play a character until Nightmare and then abandon it and play something else then go for it, nobody judges you, it's just that your opinions about the game being flawed... well, I don't know what point are you trying to make is all.

[willpell]

honestly there are three playstyles for Diablo

Which might appeal to me for a few hours, as opposed to the years of fun (if sometimes frustrating fun) I get from 2.


I'm not sure if you understand the game too well. Sorceress has the least variety in build paths?

Yes, Fire and Cold and Lightning. With synergies and Mastery, every skill point placed outside your specialty element hurts. Every Sorc must have a few points each in Frozen Armor and Warmth, one point in Telekinesis and one in Teleport, but otherwise it's pointless to do anything other than pile up as much damage as possible, because you are a fragile twig and your only hope to survive is to kill every monster the instant it appears.


Necromancer's build variety is questionable because in their core most necromancers rely on Corpse Explosion to deal damage

That makes as much sense as relying on a Fomula 1 racecar to get you to work every day. Corpse explosion is fun and impressive, but it needs corpses to work, which you have to have some way of manufacturing. So since it can't be relied on to do all the work, I generally don't bother with it. One of my Necros has the Bonesnap maul, another fires Bone Spears, and both have a golem plus the Bonesnap one has tons of skeletons and revives (the Bone Spear one is intentionally not touching skeletons, though he did pick up a couple items that give Mages; he mostly relies on Golem Mastery and a handful of curses, with Bone Spear substituting for the Attack button since he's using a wand).


You have never seen any of the "rarest, hardest-to-find" items in the game.

Point. But the bottom line is, uniques and set items drop randomly, and you can never count on getting a particular one, at least not without insane amounts of tedious grinding. If you can't win the game with a blue or yellow weapon, then you can't win it period; any golds or greens you get (or oranges or runewords you manage to create) are pure gravy. They should turn the game into a cakewalk, while without them you should have to sweat just a tiny bit but ultimately be capable of success with minimal effort.


I believe you can simply save your characters somewhere else before tinkering with them.

I did manage to restore at least one character from saves after the game glitched out and destroyed him (it's the Bonesnap Necromancer, how fitting). But my attempts at messing with character files have often gone wrong (for instance "this character cannot be played, bad character version" when I try to copy a saved one back into the game - and yes I got all four files), and I prefer just not to ever risk trying. Computers are arcane and mysterious; I never mess with them, any more than I attempt to perform surgery on strangers, because I don't know what I'm doing and am likely to do more harm than good.


Each level is really small. Often, if you are a Sorceress, you can just teleport over a wall and immediately end up at the exit to the next level.

If you know where you're teleporting, sure. At the very least you have to clear the level the hard way once in order to get it mapped. Also I'm very paranoid about teleport dropping me into the middle of a mob by accident.


See, I can't shake off the idea that you're complaining about a game being too hard or having design flaws when you kinda don't put in the effort to either brute force through the game by grinding or figuring out tactics to deal with monsters.

Of course I don't "put in an effort"! It's a game! It's supposed to be fun and relaxing. I want to enjoy it, not study for it like it's a college test; nobody's paying me to play, I do so only while it's enjoyable, and my satisfaction is almost entirely predicated upon easily achieved rewards. As long as it's not insultingly devoid of challenge, like Spider Solitaire on Easy where every card is the same suit and it's virtually impossible to lose, I'm happy with it being a very simple and relaxing experience. In fact I even do play Spider on Easy sometimes, just for the pleasure of hearing the cards chatter when I clear a stack, though I feel a little silly about wasting even three or five minutes on such a pointless task. Still, anything for a drop of dopamine in the old brain soup, that's pretty much my motto.


If your style of playing is to play a character until Nightmare and then abandon it and play something else then go for it, nobody judges you, it's just that your opinions about the game being flawed... well, I don't know what point are you trying to make is all.

My point is that the game is really great, but it could be even better if it would actually give you the things that you want to get out of it, instead of forcing you to work and sweat and bleed for them. I just want the cool gear to be a little easier to find, to be able to keep a lot more of it, and the monsters to be a bit easier to kill and a lot harder to accidentally get killed by.

Case in point: I played my Lvl. 52 Amazon this morning and she died like twelve times in the course of exploring the Durance of Hate, after maybe only twice while I was very carefully clearing all the monsters out of Travincal before finally taking on the absurd murder-machine that is the High Council. (It didn't help a bit that just after they killed me and I sent my Valkyrie and Polearm Merc in to kill stuff so I could get my body back, the both of them stood in front of a River Stalker in one of the pools in front of the temple, letting it blast them and not fighting back; apparently there's a glitch where AI characters can't figure out how to stab them except from certain angles, which are often impossible.)

Anywho, finally I got the High Council cacked with a reasonably small number of deaths, then I went into the durance, and ONE ROOM from the door, I get mobbed by Gorebellys and Undead Flayers. I died within seconds, and had to go back in to retrieve my corpse, and as soon as I step out of the portal, one straggling Flayer ran up in my face and exploded. I had exactly 500 life at the time, interestingly - and after that ONE hit, I had 38 left. Do you see why I think this game might be a LITTLE BIT TOO HARD? Fortunately that was the only pack of those little b******s I saw in this particular run; I was lucky and found the way down to level 2 almost right away, but I paid for it once down there as it just went on and on and on without me ever finding the WP. Finally I manged to find the WP and the way to level 3, both equidistant from each other and the entrance with a ridiculous slew of enemies along the way, which had killed me a half-dozen or so times and come close that many more. I had originally NOT planned to go after Mephisto, but having gone to this much work trying to map out a route from the WP to his door, I decided to go on down after all. And promptly died two or three MORE times fighting the Blood Lords and the last four HC members.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention, and sort of the point of this story. Since Level 48 when I read up on Runewords and found out that the Amazon's special armor suit is far easier to assemble than any of the others, I set out to create it - and ground the next 4 levels without ONCE seeing a 3-socket armor suit, or even a normal armor suit that I could do the Add Sockets recipie on. So during today's playsession, I finally got one - a mere Breast Plate, when this 'Zon has previously gotten her Strength up high enough to wear Gothic Plate - and out of disgusted impatience I performed the Add Sockets on it, then put in ShaelThulAmn to create the "Peace" runeword, for +2 to Amazon skills on top of the +1 Maiden amulet I already had. Not that Amazon skills are that great, which is probably why they give this runeword away, but anyhow. So I finally had my armor, and just a short way further on into the Durance, what do I find? A three-socket Breast Plate. So I completely wasted my Perfect Topaz and Tal and Thul runes on transforming the first one, and if i'd kept them and decided against wasting my runeword in a Breast Plate, a little later in the dungeon I found a white-quality suit of Linked Mail which would have worked just fine to socket (if it had managed to turn out with 3). ARRRRGH. For the thousandth time, I ask why you can't just BUY the damn things when you want them, instead of pile after pile of jank magic items, plus Gamble which produces even more jank magic items. Even if you have to find Runes the hard way, just being able to buy normal and socketed items on command would make such a huge difference.

On the plus side, once I finally reached Mephisto, I comfirmed that he is indeed a putz, something I thought might have been a fluke when I fought him once before with my wimpy Barbarian 46 (he was lucky enough to park across the moat from him and spent a lot of time dodging while throwing Prevent Monster Heal axes, so it was tedious but not at all difficult). This time I had my 'Zon switch to her backup bow (Wizendraw), with a Fire Arrow I'd just picked at level 53 because all those +Skills items made me figure it was time to broaden my horizons a little, and her previous Multiple Shots hasn't really seemed to be cutting it. The Fire Arrow is just a prereq for Exploding and eventually Immolation, but that's still just three skill points invested to have her backup weapon be much, much more powerful (and I may decide to stop having it be a backup at that point, given how often the Lightning Strike frontline combat thing goes wrong, since Immolation Arrow would do a comparably decent job of clearing out large groups). So anyway, my new Fire Arrow proved extremely efficient at cutting Mephisto down to size; it took an entire quiver of 350 arrows and all four of the mana potions I was carrying (which served both to power Fire Arrow and to respawn Val as fast as she died), but I finally whittled him down to just a sliver of life, and since Wizendraw fires magic arrows when you're out of regular once (no longer fire, but still), I kept up the assault with only one brief pause when Meph got lucky and killed Val right after I'd summoned and I had to run away until I recharged enough mana to make her again. But this fortunately didn't take long enough for Meph to recover much, and in very little time he finally went down. So I got to end my nightmarish four-hour-or-so marathon session on a bit of a high note at least; this sort of satisfaction is almost worth all the s*** that the game forces me to wade through on my way there.

[tyckspoon]

and ground the next 4 levels without ONCE seeing a 3-socket armor suit, or even a normal armor suit that I could do the Add Sockets recipie on...


Mechanical note: You mentioned earlier that you try to stack Magic Find on your gear. If you're looking for socketable stuff, this is working against you - white/grey items only drop when the check for magic or rarer quality fails. If you're carrying around enough Magic Find, you will see very, very few base items to work with for sockets.. every blue armor you saw while doing those 4 levels could potentially have been your socketed base if you had *less* Magic Find.

[willpell]

Well that's annoying. But thanks for telling me, I'll remember to switch out my gear the next time this occurs (which will probably be with my Barbarian, since he only needs a Hel to get his special armor).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Furthermore, no level 53 character with only 500 hit points is going to last very long anywhere. You should have at a MINIMUM twice, if not three times that amount.

[tyckspoon]

Furthermore, no level 53 character with only 500 hit points is going to last very long anywhere. You should have at a MINIMUM twice, if not three times that amount.

Good ranged characters would be alright with that. Melee ones, especially if not geared for high defenses? Yeah, probably going to get wasted a lot.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Good ranged characters would be alright with that. Melee ones, especially if not geared for high defenses? Yeah, probably going to get wasted a lot.

Even ranged, 500 is where I'd expect someone just beating Baal Normal to be, in the mid-thirties. This is without extensive grinding or passing items around toons, just from putting most of your points into Vitality.

[Winthur]

Which might appeal to me for a few hours, as opposed to the years of fun (if sometimes frustrating fun) I get from 2.
I played D1 for more than D2, if it says anything at all.


Yes, Fire and Cold and Lightning. With synergies and Mastery, every skill point placed outside your specialty element hurts.
Proper skills let you mix and mash the skills so that you have ways to deal with Immune characters.

Every Sorc must have a few points each in Frozen Armor and Warmth, one point in Telekinesis and one in Teleport
You can make due without Frozen Armor and how much you allocate in Warmth is merely a choice of playstyle and +skills you find on the way. The rest of the skills are simple utility, all classes have that. You don't play Barbarians without maxed Battle Orders, you don't play Amazons without Valkyrie, and you don't play Paladins without Vigor.

but otherwise it's pointless to do anything other than pile up as much damage as possible, because you are a fragile twig and your only hope to survive is to kill every monster the instant it appears.
Try out an Energy Shield based sorceress with an Act 2 mercenary with the Insight runeword (another low-tier runeword that players are capable of assembling by early-mid Nightmare) and 75% block. The only thing that kills you is Mana Burn monsters. You can run a tanky Enchantress build if you are so inclined, with Shiver Armor.


That makes as much sense as relying on a Fomula 1 racecar to get you to work every day. Corpse explosion is fun and impressive, but it needs corpses to work, which you have to have some way of manufacturing. So since it can't be relied on to do all the work, I generally don't bother with it.

This is how I play my Summoner that I mostly use for running lucrative areas such as Act 1 Pits or Act 2 Ancient Tunnels: I get some bodies from Blood Moor (my mercenary kills the first one and then I keep making minions until I'm maxed). When I get clearing areas, I just wait until the first body drops and I blow it up. It causes other monsters to die, setting off a chain reaction where I am left with more and more bodies to blow up until I clear the whole screen in a few seconds. Corpse Explosion is by far the most efficient way for clearing areas fast - Skeletons are there for tanking and getting that first corpse down to set up the chain reaction. Even if I were to play a Bone Necro I'd probably want Corpse Explosion.


Point. But the bottom line is, uniques and set items drop randomly, and you can never count on getting a particular one, at least not without insane amounts of tedious grinding.
Actually certain bosses have higher chances to drop certain items. That's why people who are starting the ladder off love Nightmare Mephisto so much.


If you can't win the game with a blue or yellow weapon, then you can't win it period;

Play a Summoner Necro, win the game naked...


any golds or greens you get (or oranges or runewords you manage to create) are pure gravy. They should turn the game into a cakewalk, while without them you should have to sweat just a tiny bit but ultimately be capable of success with minimal effort.

Would throw the game off its balance. Many people who play this game actually enjoy outfitting their character in new stuff and seeing them grow. And honestly, this game is about clicking on stuff. Sometimes you have to back off before you can click some more, and sometimes you have to set up the enemy to pick them off. Or you can grind, but apparently you don't like that. You also figure that using tactics is an unnatural way to play the game, so I guess you're stuck in late Nightmare.



If you know where you're teleporting, sure. At the very least you have to clear the level the hard way once in order to get it mapped. Also I'm very paranoid about teleport dropping me into the middle of a mob by accident.
Yet you don't have qualms about running haphazardly into places that can get you killed in the name of mindless fun and then collecting your body over and over. Okay.


Of course I don't "put in an effort"! It's a game! It's supposed to be fun and relaxing. I want to enjoy it, not study for it like it's a college test; nobody's paying me to play, I do so only while it's enjoyable, and my satisfaction is almost entirely predicated upon easily achieved rewards. As long as it's not insultingly devoid of challenge, like Spider Solitaire on Easy where every card is the same suit and it's virtually impossible to lose, I'm happy with it being a very simple and relaxing experience. In fact I even do play Spider on Easy sometimes, just for the pleasure of hearing the cards chatter when I clear a stack, though I feel a little silly about wasting even three or five minutes on such a pointless task. Still, anything for a drop of dopamine in the old brain soup, that's pretty much my motto.
My point is that the game is really great, but it could be even better if it would actually give you the things that you want to get out of it, instead of forcing you to work and sweat and bleed for them. I just want the cool gear to be a little easier to find, to be able to keep a lot more of it, and the monsters to be a bit easier to kill and a lot harder to accidentally get killed by.
If you don't want to work and sweat and bleed for items and just want to have fun, trainers really aren't that hard to use and nobody is going to have an issue with you using cheats outside of battle.net.
And honestly, work and sweat and bleed through items? There's so much fun in seeing a Ring pop up from Nightmare Andariel when you know that it just might be a SoJ. And a lot of other stuff can pop up from running late game areas.
And really, what kind of effort do you have to put in to do a boss run? Of a boss you killed before? And probably didn't die on your way in? Fairly miniscule, in my opinion. If you turn it into 100 boss runs a day, it might start becoming an effort. For me, I just go fool around in whatever area I want but before I do so, I just run Andariel and Mephisto casually. I just might get something good from them.



*Amazon story*
I can't help but notice that careless play and lack of regard towards what your character actually operates with causes you to have semi-challenging areas look like I Wanna Be The Guy and, in effect, waste time and frustrate you.

[Derjuin]

@Willpell: I think perhaps you are putting too much stock in stats that are meant to be stacked *after* you have your survival and damage stats down pat. Vitality, all resistances, damage reduction, faster hit recovery, block chance, faster attack speed/faster cast rate, +skills, life leech/mana leech (for melee/amazons), mana on kill (for casters) and enhanced damage (for melee/amazons) are important stats. Cold damage is usually important for melee and amazons. Crushing Blow is extremely useful for melee, while Deadly Strike and Open Wounds are nice modifiers but not "necessary". Magic Find and Gold Find should only be considered icing on the cake unless you are playing a character meant to grind for items, and even then you need a lot of it. 50% will hardly make a difference; you need closer to 400-500%. I'm not saying it's the incorrect thing to do, just realize that magic find doesn't help you kill faster or stay alive longer.

Also, you really do not need ultra rare high quality items to beat the game. Ultra rare high quality items are required to *wreck* the game. Enigma, Last Wish, Breath of the Dying, Doom, Ice and Infinity (and others) were not created to make the game possible - they were created to make new specializations and playstyles plausible, one of those playstyles being "lol im so storng i destroy everythang".

Annoying story: I switched to Zealot after I tried (and failed) 4 times to get a Crystal Sword with 4 open sockets for a Spirit sword. One act later I have a Crystal Sword with 4 open sockets and no respecs left till Hell. :smallannoyed::smallamused: At least I have a great crafted melee-oriented Divine Scepter for when he gets to Act 5...

[nooblade]

I think it will reach the "beer and pretzels" point when you get experience and possibly read some spoilers about how others can make it easy. As pursuant to discussions with Winth, Bow-wielding Amazons are just not the easiest to do. However, I don't recommend item editor stuff. Makes it less awesome when you find neat stuff. Although, to be fair, shopping for neat stuff is a complete waste of time.

And now you've all made me want to play again. Blast this game and its soul-sucking capacity.

Edit: So I just fought Diablo. I had started a Necromancer yesterday (to try the skelemancer build with an invincible Clay Golem, you see, the one variant I didn't really go into much), I guess it took more than a few hours to reach Diablo. But anyway. Here I was at Diablo without Decrepify because I wanted to try without it. Had nice fire and lightning resist so I figure I'll go for it and leave /players 8 on. This guy casts his bone prison on me, twice, which leads to death by lightning hose. I only remember a handful of those bone prisons for my entire time with D2.

But OK, I'm softcore so I've still got this, I'll just get another army. Army dies to lightning hose (and no bone prison). It took more tactics than I remember with keeping Clay Golem on him (he always attacks that golem for some reason) to actually win. Also a tactic where the golem is summoned on the other side of the army in case of lightning hose.

Mephisto and Duriel were boring. First and only yet set dropped by Meph--Sigon's boots. Have nicer blue boots with magic find and resists already. First and only yet unique was the bloodspear, nice for mercs, dropped by Lord de Seis before Diablo. Not that this build needs anything.

[tyckspoon]

Even ranged, 500 is where I'd expect someone just beating Baal Normal to be, in the mid-thirties. This is without extensive grinding or passing items around toons, just from putting most of your points into Vitality.

Barbarians and Amazons, maybe; caster classes won't be there (poorer Life/level and Life/Vitality gains) unless they're putting practically all of their statpoints to Vitality and/or acquired a lot of +Vit/+Life stuff.

(For reference, I have a level 45 Druid, just starting Act 2 Nightmare. 140 Vit gives him 487 Life with gear on. If he were naked, that'd drop to just under 400. Popping out Oak Sage brings that near to 800, but in any situation where I'm likely to actually be at risk of suffering that much damage the Oak Sage is probably toast quite quickly anyway. Admittedly I do have 65 unspent stat points, but even if I dropped them all into Vit right now that'd still only bring my ungeared Life total to the area of the 500 you think I should have had ten levels ago.)

[willpell]

Even ranged, 500 is where I'd expect someone just beating Baal Normal to be, in the mid-thirties. This is without extensive grinding or passing items around toons, just from putting most of your points into Vitality.

Well, the "never put point in Energy" is recent news to me and I'm still not sure I buy it, and I probably have far more Strength and Dexterity on most of my characters than is strictly necessary, so that if an awesome item does drop I can equip it right away. After all, barring Hardcore characters who I never ever ever touch and never ever ever will (I get that there's an interestingly different mentality behind it, but I think you'd have to run my brain through a blender in order to change my mind on whether I want to risk having all my awesome items disappear because some beastie landed a lucky hit at the exact moment my guard faltered, which it often does), your storage space is an absolute limit, while your hit points are not. You have infinite health as long as you're willing to suffer enough delays, setbacks, XP penalties if above your most recent level, and maybe the loss of some backup gear if you disobey the rule to never equip anything after death, which I rarely do for exactly this reason. So long as you obey this rule, the worst that can happen is lost progress and lack of momentum, and when I suffer that fate (as with my Barbarian when he first got to nightmare Kurast at about level 44 and couldn't take three steps without being killed by twenty Zakarumites), you can always just go back to an earlier act or even back to Normal and grind for XP for a while...it stinks, but the option exists and is better than just deleting that character because he's doomed never to advance. So all this in mind, if some unique or second-set-part Gothic Plate or something drops, I would prefer for nearly all my characters to be able to equip it instantly, rather than have to waste storage space on it while leveling three times and putting all points into Strength.

So yeah, my characters are almost certainly not putting all their points into Vitality.


You don't play Barbarians without maxed Battle Orders

I in fact do. Battle Orders requires you to slog your way through the entire Shout tree, and those skills are not only largely worthless, but the way my brain works, if I have them, I feel compelled to use them despite knowing this, and feel stupid every time I forget to turn on my teeny-tiny Defense buff before wading into a mob. I'd rather just not touch that entire branch of the Skill tree, especially given that BO (hehe, barbarians have BO) comes online at the same time as War Cry, the "Barbarian's Nova", which is much more my speed, as well as Natural Resistance which seems like something of a must-have. So Battle Orders is a definitely situational thing, which my #1 Barb doesn't have at all (this admittedly may be part of his problem), and only one of my others has acquired or plans to acquire.

And apart from that, out of my 40-or-so characters with levels going up to 53, I have precisely one skill at 20 (a paladin's Conviction, which still only works 42% of the time and lasts for 16 seconds, which is just long enough to be annoying sometimes without actually making a difference). The same paladin's 15 Fanaticism is the only other skill I can think of which is north of 13, where I intentionally stopped my Amazon's Valkyrie since her runeword makes level 15 valkyries when she pokes things (supposedly there's a 2% chance, but I swear that in practice it seems to be more like 20%; I get to hear the valkyrie death scream a lot). These examples aside, I like variety too much to overcommit that much to a single skill; the really important skills like my top Sorc's Chain Lightning are around 7-10 levels. (In all cases I'm not counting +skills, which are nice if you can get them but don't help you when you need them most because you're naked, so I never think of them as anything but gravy.)


you don't play Amazons without Valkyrie

Not a lot of argument there; I definitely plan on pretty much every Amazon that ever hits 30 getting that, if not immediately then within a level or two. Especially since the runner-up is a dedicated archer who absolutely will want a bodyguard; the other two I might think about going Val-less, but they're only level 6 and 14 so it's a long way off and my mind is likely to change if it ever gets that far. Oh but my Battlenet Amazon, currently level 18, is designed to never use mana under any circumstances, so she'll probably have to live without Val...at least she has seven other characters sending their Amazon gear her way, so it's maybe vaguely doable, but I seldom play those characters anyway.


and you don't play Paladins without Vigor.

Okay, that I have no argument at all with; the ability to cross long spaces quickly is definitely a must-have.


Try out an Energy Shield based sorceress with an Act 2 mercenary with the Insight runeword

Which I have not done. If the rarest rune involved is Io or higher, but isn't Fal, then I've literally never seen one. I think there's slightly more than a dozen runewords I've managed to create, mostly easy ones like NefTir, TalEth, and RalOrtTal. I'm certain I've never managed a 4-spacer, as the only ones that don't involve super-high runes are based on peculiar items like staves and scepters - I find tons of 4-socket polearms but there aren't any runewords for those at my level, curse the designers' hides.


The only thing that kills you is Mana Burn monsters.

Which will be all that I ever see courtesy of Murphy's Law. Still, thanks for the idea; it'll give me something to do with a kinda-sucky sorc that has multiple elements and no particular plan.


Act 1 Pits or Act 2 Ancient Tunnels

I hardly ever do these side dungeons; they take away from the time I want to spend getting through the main quest. At the very least I always want to reach the quest rewards in act 5 before I consider going back to grind (prior to act 4, you can't buy Greater potions, which I always find too annoying to tolerate, and once I hit act 4, it's so short and so full of rich quests that I seldom delay getting through it). I suppose once I've done in the Ancients there's not really any reason to kill Baal immediately unless I'm desperate for a respec (which most of my high-level chars are, since I built them haphazardly and they suck even by my standards), but even without such a compulsion, I just don't like lingering and putzing around with random side quests. Occasionally it happens, but it's never my main plan.


I get some bodies from Blood Moor (my mercenary kills the first one and then I keep making minions until I'm maxed).

Yep, that's SOP for a Skeleton necromancer - which is one reason why I'm in no great hurry to ever make another one. Though the nudiemancer challenge would be an amusing thing to try online, if I ever get sick enough of my current backup necro to delete him (he's level 12, so it wouldn't completely shatter me to give up that progress; my other one has no real theme and I don't like him, but he's 18 levels deep and that's just more of a waste than I can tolerate).


You also figure that using tactics is an unnatural way to play the game

You exagerrate my opinion slightly, but yeah it's generally something I'd prefer to be rare and exceptional, not de rigeur for every single mob.


If you don't want to work and sweat and bleed for items and just want to have fun, trainers really aren't that hard to use and nobody is going to have an issue with you using cheats outside of battle.net.

I mentioned my concerns about monkeying with the software.


And honestly, work and sweat and bleed through items? There's so much fun in seeing a Ring pop up from Nightmare Andariel when you know that it just might be a SoJ.

This has never happened to me, and honestly I could live with that thrill being provided by pointless collectibles that just sit in town and look cool, without taking up precious stash space, let alone actually space on your character that needs to do something. Functional equipment up to and including a Bonesplitter or Saigon's Complete Steel should NOT be that hard to get; its quality already makes it valuable without it also being a vanity prize. That would be like if Maseratis and Infinitis were the only cars that were capable of driving more than 30mph.


And really, what kind of effort do you have to put in to do a boss run? Of a boss you killed before?

Lots. Even Mephisto is moderately difficult, and Duriel is fiendish (except apparently if you're a Paladin). Andariel is probably somewhere between, but when I get her killed once, I usually have no desire to repeat the experience...repeating anything isn't generally my idea of a good time. (As i've said before, so apparently forum walls of text are an exception to that principle; I'd seriously love to know why so I could stop spending my entire lunch hour typing.)


I can't help but notice that careless play and lack of regard towards what your character actually operates with causes you to have semi-challenging areas look like I Wanna Be The Guy and, in effect, waste time and frustrate you.

Yep, I've considered whether I have something of a masochist streak, but really I think it's just that I live in a society that dislikes people of my sort and prefers to make life difficult for those who refuse to play by its rules. Everything from politics and economics to the fundamental laws of physics pretty much makes me feel like I was born on the wrong planet and the deck was stacked against me from day one, which is the entire reason why I take escapist amusements such as computer games so gorram seriously...they're the best I can ever look forward to.

And on that note, I have ten minutes to go get something to eat. Bye.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, I'm a Paladin, level 14, and I've just cleared the first level of the jail. I also managed to find a green item (Not sure what the rarity levels are of item colors) called Death's Guard that has a nice effect (20 defense, can't be frozen).

I am still undecided on what build I"m going to go for. :smallsigh:

[Derjuin]

Alright, I'm a Paladin, level 14, and I've just cleared the first level of the jail. I also managed to find a green item (Not sure what the rarity levels are of item colors) called Death's Guard that has a nice effect (20 defense, can't be frozen).

I am still undecided on what build I"m going to go for. :smallsigh:

Blue = Magic (1 to 2 affixes)
Yellow = Rare (3 or more affixes)
Green = Set (part of a set with fixed abilities)
Brown = Unique (fixed abilities, can have stats that normally don't spawn on that slot)
Grey = Socketed or Ethereal
White = Normal
Orange = Crafted or Runes

In terms of rarity, White and Grey are the most common, followed by Blue, Yellow, then Green and Brown. Orange is an oddity: crafted items never drop, and runes have their own drop rate. Els and Elds are the most common, while Zods are almost impossible to find (0.00003% drop rate). They're most decidedly the rarest item in Diablo 2, but at the same time, are only used in a whopping one runeword: Breath of the Dying.

Death's Guard is a really, really good belt, despite not allowing more than 8 potions at once. That Cannot Be Frozen modifier is extremely good, even on softcore.

You don't really need to worry about builds with your first few characters; but to offer some suggestions, I would recommend the Tesladin (uses Zeal and Holy Shock). From what I understand it's not very weapon dependent, and you don't need to finagle annoying things like how to use Blessed Hammer correctly.

[Mystic Muse]

Alright, thanks.

Just to make sure I understand skills so that I can make my Tesladin properly, in order to get Zeal and Holy Shock, I have to do it like this, correct?

Might==>Holy Fire==>Holy Freeze==> Holy Shock

Sacrifice==>Zeal

[Derjuin]

Alright, thanks.

Just to make sure I understand skills so that I can make my Tesladin properly, in order to get Zeal and Holy Shock, I have to do it like this, correct?

Might==>Holy Fire==>Holy Freeze==> Holy Shock

Sacrifice==>Zeal

Yep!

My paladin has been all over the place, though, so I can't really give any good tips on where to put your points when.

[Mystic Muse]

Yep!

My paladin has been all over the place, though, so I can't really give any good tips on where to put your points when.

I figure I might as well just put the skills I've saved up into the relevant skills (So, Zeal, the pre-requisites for Holy shock, and resist lightning?)

[willpell]

@Willpell: I think perhaps you are putting too much stock in stats that are meant to be stacked *after* you have your survival and damage stats down pat.

Perhaps, but building a character that way would be more boring to me, so there's no point. When one character's inviability frustrates me to the limit, I just play something else. That's the whole point of my having the stable (well, that and they look cute standing there on the select screen, no two looking alike).


Magic Find and Gold Find should only be considered icing on the cake unless you are playing a character meant to grind for items

This describes all my characters, collectively; "grinding" for items is pretty nearly the entire point of me playing. Killing monsters is the short-term goal, but it would bore me quickly if not for the ability to dress all my adventurers up in armor of funny colors, collect runes to see what they do (I would actually have preferred if there were about five times as many runewords and NO WAY to know which ones worked in any particular game other than to try them out, though this would require runes and socketed items being much easier to get), and go "whoa" when I finally find a set item which actually matches one I already have.


As pursuant to discussions with Winth, Bow-wielding Amazons are just not the easiest to do.

Well she's more about the lance than the bow, even if she's more fragile than she should be. But the recognition that melee is a rough path is exactly why I'm moving my sorceress up faster than most of the bunch. Once she stops instadying to lucky ranged attacks, she should be a powerhouse, being (purely for flavor reasons) built around two of the strongest skills, Chain Lightning and Thunderstorm, with various Orbs to get access to Fire and Cold spells when they're needed badly enough.


(he always attacks that golem for some reason)

Would you rather he attacked you? I'm very thankful the AI apparently pays attention to hirelings and minions first, even if it's sort of not the logical thing to do from the boss's perspective.


Admittedly I do have 65 unspent stat points

What? Why on earth would you do that?


Brown = Unique (fixed abilities, can have stats that normally don't spawn on that slot)

Pedantic note: Theoretically this is supposed to be gold, though I agree that it looks more nearly brown.


while Zods are almost impossible to find (0.00003% drop rate). They're most decidedly the rarest item in Diablo 2, but at the same time, are only used in a whopping one runeword: Breath of the Dying.

You can make the highest-level runes by combining lower-level runes and gems, though it will take forever to synthesize a Zod this way. However, while Zod isn't needed for runewords, it's a very nice rune to have just for the ability to stick it into a socketed Ethereal item, which by definition has better stats than its non-Ethereal counterpart. Because Zod means the item can't be destroyed, it bypasses the usual nigh-uselessness of ethereal items, which is that they can't be repaired. So you get a neat item, and one that looks transparent on your character (they can go on the Hireling if he can use that type, but alas you don't see them there).

[darksolitaire]

First rule of the high runes; you do not combine high runes. The mid high runes, Ohm and Lo are easily more useful then their rarer counter parts. Zod is among the weakest. Call to Arms (AmnRalMalIstOhm) is heaven sent for casters and Fortitude (ElSolDolLo) is great for every physical character and mercenary alike.

Willpell, I can honestly recommend using ATMA for muling, even after your stated dislike for tinkering with additional programs. It's easy to use, and it creates back up files when it modifies files. There's nothing fancy to it. It opens character's inventory in graphical display similar to the game itself, and then you can just drag item to other character.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I figure I might as well just put the skills I've saved up into the relevant skills (So, Zeal, the pre-requisites for Holy shock, and resist lightning?)

You will want at least 4 ranks in Zeal for your maximum number of attacks. After that, it's all just AR bonuses. Honestly, synergy points in Sacrifice might be more important for extra damage boosting.

You want Holy Shock capped. Period. End of story. Until you hit 20 ranks. Then get skill bonuses to boost it beyond that.

You want Resist Lightning for synergy bonus to lightning damage.

Don't forget to wander on down to pick up a single point in Vigor. Maybe also wander down dropping a single point into the charge line to get Holy Shield if you want to deal with having to re-cast it every so often for capped block rate with a lower Dex (which means higher Vitality).

So, priority is:

1) Holy Shock. Keep it capped.

2) 4 points into Zeal. Additional ranks to taste for AR

3) Synergy points into Sacrifice and Resist Lightning as you find the points.

[willpell]

First rule of the high runes; you do not combine high runes. The mid high runes, Ohm and Lo are easily more useful then their rarer counter parts. Zod is among the weakest.

I care very little. The first rune of each type which I manage to find will get saved for a long dang time; the second is likely to get used. But should I find a third and a fourth, I will not hesitate to combine them to produce one I haven't seen, no matter how tempting it would be to just throw them onto an item for utility purposes.


Willpell, I can honestly recommend using ATMA for muling, even after your stated dislike for tinkering with additional programs. It's easy to use, and it creates back up files when it modifies files. There's nothing fancy to it. It opens character's inventory in graphical display similar to the game itself, and then you can just drag item to other character.

I will certainly get around to testing it on my backup compueter eventually; if it manages not to destroy those characters, I'll risk exposing my real ones to it.

[Winthur]

Well she's more about the lance than the bow, even if she's more fragile than she should be.

She can really be built as everything; it's just that the bowazon lends herself to a physical-based playstyle which we established to take up a whole lot of items to be efficient, while javazon is more of a caster. You can also play a caster bowazon (or a Nightfish-style hybrid) such as the Frostmaiden, though.



What? Why on earth would you do that?
You don't need all skill or stat points "at this very moment". I like to preserve skill points before crucial breakthroughs, such as level 24 for the Necromancer where I immediately want Summon Resist and the Decrepify curse; some people preserve their stat points when they're not sure where to put them right now while the stats they have right now are enough to be able to deal with the enemies.




You can make the highest-level runes by combining lower-level runes and gems, though it will take forever to synthesize a Zod this way. However, while Zod isn't needed for runewords, it's a very nice rune to have just for the ability to stick it into a socketed Ethereal item, which by definition has better stats than its non-Ethereal counterpart. Because Zod means the item can't be destroyed, it bypasses the usual nigh-uselessness of ethereal items, which is that they can't be repaired. So you get a neat item, and one that looks transparent on your character (they can go on the Hireling if he can use that type, but alas you don't see them there).

You are extremely unlikely to ever find Zod in a normal game; nearly all of the Zod runes on Battle.net are dupes. Needless to say, there hardly are ethereal items worth putting Zod into "just like that", you want to put it in for that runeword. The "cannot be repaired" quality of ethereal items can be easily resolved by:
1) it being an item with a self-repair characteristic
2) it being a thrown weapon with the Replenish characteristic (like ethereal Titan's Revenge, the bread & butter of a Javazon)
3) it being a part of your mercenary's equipment; mercenaries never lose any durability on their items.


Perhaps, but building a character that way would be more boring to me, so there's no point. When one character's inviability frustrates me to the limit, I just play something else.

Y'know, I can't help but notice that you're the one making them unviable, not the game. :|


Well, the "never put point in Energy" is recent news to me and I'm still not sure I buy it
You kinda should. Energy sucks. Itemization makes Energy moot and no end-game build (or even mid-game, or even anything past "I maxed out my mana in Normal to cruise through it faster by being able to spam spells"-game) wants a single point in it other than some Energy Shield shenanigans.

You have infinite health as long as you're willing to suffer enough delays, setbacks, XP penalties if above your most recent level, and maybe the loss of some backup gear if you disobey the rule to never equip anything after death, which I rarely do for exactly this reason. So long as you obey this rule, the worst that can happen is lost progress and lack of momentum, and when I suffer that fate (as with my Barbarian when he first got to nightmare Kurast at about level 44 and couldn't take three steps without being killed by twenty Zakarumites), you can always just go back to an earlier act or even back to Normal and grind for XP for a while...

Again... you don't want to grind, but are willing to screw yourself over to the point where grinding is absolutely and completely necessary?
Have you ever considered if it would be an accomplishment for you to just... not die? It's not hard in Normal even on squishy characters...

I in fact do. Battle Orders requires you to slog your way through the entire Shout tree, and those skills are not only largely worthless

Shout tree provides a lot of crowd control abilities (Howl, War Cry) for light-weight Barbarians such as the Berserker, not to mention a ton of team utility, and even if you're not playing over TCP/IP or battle.net, your mercenary can use the shout too. Battle Orders are amazing - they give Life and Mana letting you sustain much more damage and be much less pot-reliant. Farther down we have the one-point wonder called Battle Commands. It perplexes me that anyone could ever call those "largely worthless".

[Hubert]

First rule of the high runes; you do not combine high runes. The mid high runes, Ohm and Lo are easily more useful then their rarer counter parts. Zod is among the weakest. Call to Arms (AmnRalMalIstOhm) is heaven sent for casters and Fortitude (ElSolDolLo) is great for every physical character and mercenary alike.


On the other hand, after Ohm and Lo, you get Sur (meh), then Ber and Jah. I think Enigma is a good enough reason to get those ones :smalltongue:


Willpell, I can honestly recommend using ATMA for muling, even after your stated dislike for tinkering with additional programs. It's easy to use, and it creates back up files when it modifies files. There's nothing fancy to it. It opens character's inventory in graphical display similar to the game itself, and then you can just drag item to other character.

+1 (although personally I use PlugY). Basically, it gets you one of the main advantages of playing multi: the ability to transfer items + extended storage space. It is much more fun to play a character when you know that any good item you will find can be put to good use. Also, it makes following characters much easier (and thus fun) to play, as you do not have to grind again to get good items.

Willpell, allowing item transfer and extended storage seems to me the best way to play for you. This way, by normally playing your characters (no grinding required), you naturally build a stock of the most useful items you find. Next time you need something specific (e.g. a socketable armor), you can first check if another character already found something you can use. Basically, the more you play, the bigger your item stock gets; at the end, you have a good choice of low and mid-level items, and you can concentrate on either getting high-level items, either trying fun builds,...


You can make the highest-level runes by combining lower-level runes and gems, though it will take forever to synthesize a Zod this way. However, while Zod isn't needed for runewords, it's a very nice rune to have just for the ability to stick it into a socketed Ethereal item, which by definition has better stats than its non-Ethereal counterpart. Because Zod means the item can't be destroyed, it bypasses the usual nigh-uselessness of ethereal items, which is that they can't be repaired. So you get a neat item, and one that looks transparent on your character (they can go on the Hireling if he can use that type, but alas you don't see them there).

Making ethereal items indestructible is usually not worth it, except for die-hard optimizers. Ethereal items are only a little bit more effective and require a little bit lower stats. If you socket a zod to make them indestructible, you lose the possibility to socket more useful runes. The only ethereals I keep are the socketable polearms, in order to do Insight or other runewords for my hireling.


Edit:

You kinda should. Energy sucks. Itemization makes Energy moot and no end-game build (or even mid-game, or even anything past "I maxed out my mana in Normal to cruise through it faster by being able to spam spells"-game) wants a single point in it other than some Energy Shield shenanigans.

However, with the reset of the stats and skills now possible, you can put some points in energy for an easier time through normal, and remove them when your level and gear make you mana-independant.



Shout tree provides a lot of crowd control abilities (Howl, War Cry) for light-weight Barbarians such as the Berserker, not to mention a ton of team utility, and even if you're not playing over TCP/IP or battle.net, your mercenary can use the shout too. Battle Orders are amazing - they give Life and Mana letting you sustain much more damage and be much less pot-reliant. Farther down we have the one-point wonder called Battle Commands. It perplexes me that anyone could ever call those "largely worthless".

Not to mention, barbs do not have many other things to do with their skill points than to invest in shouts :smalltongue:

[willpell]

You don't need all skill or stat points "at this very moment". I like to preserve skill points before crucial breakthroughs, such as level 24 for the Necromancer where I immediately want Summon Resist and the Decrepify curse

Yeah, I get that part, but there's no such incentive with stats; those you might as well take high now so that the lack of them doesn't get you killed later.


You are extremely unlikely to ever find Zod in a normal game; nearly all of the Zod runes on Battle.net are dupes.

Dupes?


You kinda should. Energy sucks. Itemization makes Energy moot

You say it, but I haven't seen it be so. The max energy-up item I've ever seen is a +100-something ring, but the vast majority give you like +5 to +20, and often that's on a grand charm or your armor or something. Certainly a decent-sized mana bonus is not available at the low levels where I need it. Plus the fewer mana potions I have to belt, the more healing potions I can belt instead, so I like having a blue orb that never even gets half empty while I kill everything on the screen, just in case another entire screen of mobs happens to hear the sound and come running.


Again... you don't want to grind, but are willing to screw yourself over to the point where grinding is absolutely and completely necessary?

No, it's really not. Slogging is absolutely necessary, and the game is designed that way. Grinding is a form of slogging, and dying repeatedly is another one, but less proactive. The alternative to slogging would be for the game to be more of a cakewalk, which is exactly what I want it to be, but grinding doesn't make that happen today, it makes it happen long after I stop caring. Making the game easy after you've ground for thirty-eight hours is like getting to take the hottest girl in your high school out for a date just as soon as you've been married to her for 20 years. If the alternative is to just stay single, then such is life (and "such" is rather a synonym for another 4-letter word starting with S).


Have you ever considered if it would be an accomplishment for you to just... not die?

That's not an accomplishment. It is Situation Normal, the bare minimum of what is to be expected. Dying, though annoying, is at least an event, and noteworthy so long as it's relatively unusual (which it is for all but the very worst of my chars).


Shout tree provides a lot of crowd control abilities (Howl, War Cry)

Right, I like those two, and the one in between that isn't Taunt (that I just pretend doesn't exist, though weirdly I can't seem to do the same for Shout).


Battle Orders are amazing - they give Life and Mana letting you sustain much more damage

Er, that sounds like pure suicide to me. Buff ends, you drop dead? No thanks. That one is synonymous with Shout to me; the only thing on that branch of the tree that's even worth considering is the one that gives +skills at level 30.



Making ethereal items indestructible is usually not worth it, except for die-hard optimizers. Ethereal items are only a little bit more effective and require a little bit lower stats. If you socket a zod to make them indestructible, you lose the possibility to socket more useful runes. The only ethereals I keep are the socketable polearms, in order to do Insight or other runewords for my hireling.

One of my mercs has an ethereal Linked Mail which is defense four hundred twenty. And weapons I've seen are also close to double normal damage if ethereal. If Zod is useless it's only because it comes too late in the game, when all your items are Elite. A Zod in Normal would be ungodly awesome, which is exactly why I say it shouldn't have been super-duper-ultra-bultra-rare (yes, bultra is a word now).


Not to mention, barbs do not have many other things to do with their skill points than to invest in shouts :smalltongue:

You're kidding right? Weapon Mastery, Iron Skin, Improved Speed, Natural Resist (note to self: make a zero-mana Barb using this page sometime), and the entire Bash tree. Plus Find Item, though admittedly that's a skill for "fun" players like me, and I don't argue with the community considering it worthless power-wise. Shouts are the one thing I have to remind myself that barbarians have; they're nowhere near as convenient as paladin auras, nor as effective as spells of any kind (though warcry is close).

[tyckspoon]

Which I have not done. If the rarest rune involved is Io or higher, but isn't Fal, then I've literally never seen one. I think there's slightly more than a dozen runewords I've managed to create, mostly easy ones like NefTir, TalEth, and RalOrtTal. I'm certain I've never managed a 4-spacer, as the only ones that don't involve super-high runes are based on peculiar items like staves and scepters - I find tons of 4-socket polearms but there aren't any runewords for those at my level, curse the designers' hides.


:smallsigh: The highest rune in Insight is Sol (reqlevel 27.) It can be made in polearms. It *also* has pretty hefty Enhanced Damage and Attack Rating mods, which means if you find a good weapon to make it in it can make your merc much, much more dangerous in addition to providing infinite mana for you via the Meditation aura. It can also be a reliably good weapon for a main character if you have one who doesn't want to use an Act 2 Merc for whatever reason; some styles of Barbarians, Amazons, and shapeshifting Druids can put a polearm to good use, IIRC.

[willpell]

:smallsigh: The highest rune in Insight is Sol (reqlevel 27.)

Look again - LumIoSolEth. Lum is rune #17, Io is #16. Sol is only #12. I've never seen a single Lum or Io, and my first Io if it happens to drop for my sorceress, who has a Dol, is going immediately into a Wand, just to see the result, even though it won't be useful to her because she's not a necro (it's only two spaces, she can afford to keep it as a vanity item with minor situational use, if that).

Actually, both of us need to look again. Insight is a ladder-only runeword. Which means it doesn't exist to me, as I play ladder too rarely to bother learning what the ladder-only runewords are. If it doesn't work in single-player, I can't afford to know it, lest I get confused and try to create it in single-player and waste four runes and a socketed item on something useless. Thanks, Blizzard.

[-teacup]

I in fact do. Battle Orders requires you to slog your way through the entire Shout tree, and those skills are not only largely worthless, but the way my brain works, if I have them, I feel compelled to use them despite knowing this, and feel stupid every time I forget to turn on my teeny-tiny Defense buff before wading into a mob. I'd rather just not touch that entire branch of the Skill tree, especially given that BO (hehe, barbarians have BO) comes online at the same time as War Cry, the "Barbarian's Nova", which is much more my speed, as well as Natural Resistance which seems like something of a must-have. So Battle Orders is a definitely situational thing, which my #1 Barb doesn't have at all (this admittedly may be part of his problem), and only one of my others has acquired or plans to acquire.

...

The barb warcry tree is one of the best trees in the game. The synergy system works really nice on this tree. Points in battle orders boost the duration of shout and battle command making them useful with only a single point assuming you maxed BO. Battle orders itself is a damage synergy for concentrate, so every barb that maxes BO will also have a strong uninterruptible single target attack as well. If you're having trouble hitting things, use battle cry. I've never built a barb that didn't have 20 in BO and one point in all the other skills on the left and center tree (howl, taunt, battle cry, war cry, shout, battle command). They all deserve hot keys.

Even the optional right side of the tree has its uses. Find potion gives you a pretty much unlimited amount of full rejuvs starting in nightmare, and find item gives you a second chance on all unique drops. Neither skill requires more than a single point usually. Grim ward is kind of meh, but it can be useful on some of the weirder barb builds like a throwbarb or a bowbarian.

On almost every barb build (well, not throwbarbs) I'll keep a pair of +all skills or +warcries swords as my switch weapons. By hell I can shop 2 echoing swords giving me a total of +6 to warcries just by swapping weapons. Whenever I cast battle orders, shout, battle command, find potion, or find item I'll swap to my buffing weapons, then swap back to my primary fighting weapon. This makes them even more awesome.

[willpell]

The barb warcry tree is one of the best trees in the game.

Meh; I'm glad you like it, but I remain unconvinced. Though maybe my Malice barbarian, whose weapon will kill him if he holds it long enough (well not really, it's min HP of 1 but outside of town that's not something you could call safe), will put more than the current 1 point in BO and finally upgrade from Stun to Concentrate on the basis of this advice. Doesn't BC boost BO? Wouldn't you want all your points into BC instead of anything else so that it can boost everything else?


Grim ward is kind of meh, but it can be useful on some of the weirder barb builds like a throwbarb or a bowbarian.

I would have said that Grim Ward is the one everybody must have, since it lets you destroy corpses and prevent those zombies in act 5 from respawning basically forever (also handy against Nihlathak I'd imagine). Mr. Malice intentionally has zero points in Find Item just because his predecessor turned out to suck so bad, but other than him I always go for Grim Ward strictly for the sake of utility, and I don't count on finding an item of it, so I slog through its prereqs at appropriate levels - and, since I have them, I am compelled to use them.


I'll swap to my buffing weapons, then swap back to my primary fighting weapon. This makes them even more awesome.

This sounds tedious; given the same character, I would just fight with the buffing weapons. Mostly I use the switch weapon to carry something ranged in case I get stuck on the wrong side of a river getting shot at (happens all the tiem in act 3). My druid instead has a Staff with Telekinesis charges just in case a Rune drops somewhere he can't reach it. In rare cases I'll have some other sort of utility, but it's never with the intent that I should switch back and forth constantly; this would just annoy me. I use one for a while, and when the situation makes me switch, I stay switched for a while.

[tyckspoon]

Doesn't BC boost BO? Wouldn't you want all your points into BC instead of anything else so that it can boost everything else?

Nope. The only thing Battle Command gets with extra points is extended duration; the effect is always a flat +1 All Skill. It also has synergies from Shout and Battle Orders that.. give extra duration. So you want to invest in Battle Orders, which makes Battle Orders better and *also* makes Battle Command last longer.


This sounds tedious; given the same character, I would just fight with the buffing weapons. Mostly I use the switch weapon to carry something ranged in case I get stuck on the wrong side of a river getting shot at (happens all the tiem in act 3). My druid instead has a Staff with Telekinesis charges just in case a Rune drops somewhere he can't reach it. In rare cases I'll have some other sort of utility, but it's never with the intent that I should switch back and forth constantly; this would just annoy me. I use one for a while, and when the situation makes me switch, I stay switched for a while.

In this particular case, you're talking about skills that have durations upwards of a minute (especially with that many +skills affecting them.) If you're using them for Find Item, you kill everything with your real weapons and then switch to the buffing pair to pop all the corpses when it's safe. You probably have a different definition of what "constantly" means to you, but you're hardly being suggested to hit W every time you see a monster.

[Winthur]

Er, that sounds like pure suicide to me. Buff ends, you drop dead? No thanks. That one is synonymous with Shout to me; the only thing on that branch of the tree that's even worth considering is the one that gives +skills at level 30.

Right, because casually pressing a button every minute or so (the duration is REALLY long) is such a huge deal. That, and if the buff runs out, you are very rarely risking death.
Also, "pure suicide" - coming from a guy who makes it a point to suicide against monsters because minimizing deaths is taboo for him. Really?




You're kidding right? Weapon Mastery, Iron Skin, Improved Speed, Natural Resist (note to self: make a zero-mana Barb using this page sometime), and the entire Bash tree. Plus Find Item, though admittedly that's a skill for "fun" players like me, and I don't argue with the community considering it worthless power-wise. Shouts are the one thing I have to remind myself that barbarians have; they're nowhere near as convenient as paladin auras, nor as effective as spells of any kind (though warcry is close).

Weapon Mastery - requires you to actually know what weapon you will be using (which doesn't happen for many untwinked characters). Enhances physical stats mostly, something not necessary for, say, Berserker Barb. Forces you to only use one weapon.
Iron Skin - 1 point and that's it
Improved Speed - ditto
Natural Resist - ditto
Bash tree - all one point wonders other than Concentrate (if you are a Concentrate barb) or Berserk (if you're a Berserker)
They're all one point wonders, their scaling diminishes hard with level.

[-teacup]

I would have said that Grim Ward is the one everybody must have, since it lets you destroy corpses and prevent those zombies in act 5 from respawning basically forever (also handy against Nihlathak I'd imagine).
Find potion and find item also do this, and appear earlier in the tree. Yes, the corpse looks like it's still there, but it can't be resurrected.


This sounds tedious; given the same character, I would just fight with the buffing weapons. Mostly I use the switch weapon to carry something ranged in case I get stuck on the wrong side of a river getting shot at (happens all the tiem in act 3).
With no +skills and 20 points in BO shout and battle command last roughly two minutes. With just the echoing weapons I mentioned, it jumps up to three minutes. BO, the most important one, lasts several minutes longer. You should be able to swap weapons and cast your buffs every couple minutes without it being tedious. Also, barbs have leap/leap attack as a one point wonder for jumping rivers. You don't need a bow.


My druid instead has a Staff with Telekinesis charges just in case a Rune drops somewhere he can't reach it.
Unless you're using some ancient unpatched version of the game, you can't pick up runes with TK. TK is for activating chests/stash/doors/portals and picking up gold and scrolls. You can't even pick up gems with it. I still love it to death on my sorcs though.

[Traab]

So. . . am I playing my barb wrong by equipping a large weapon and leap attacking things to death? I mean, all I keep hearing about are shouts, and berserks, and concentrations and such. Noone ever mentions leap attack. Does it suck or something? Because I kinda enjoy leaping into the middle of a huge pack, slamming my target, then moving on to the rest.

[Winthur]

So. . . am I playing my barb wrong by equipping a large weapon and leap attacking things to death? I mean, all I keep hearing about are shouts, and berserks, and concentrations and such. Noone ever mentions leap attack. Does it suck or something? Because I kinda enjoy leaping into the middle of a huge pack, slamming my target, then moving on to the rest.

Leap Attack Barb used to be a thing, but pretty much all the builds utilize the Leap tree only for traversing areas faster it's especially useful for crossing rivers in Act 3). For single target damage, Concentrate and Berserk both seem to do better; focusing on Leap Attack seems to be lackluster in damage, doesn't give many benefits other than +AR and damage (Concentrate: gives armor and blocks better; Berserker: magic damage) so I imagine a Leap Attack specialist is gonna need a good weapon to do well later. But yeah, otherwise, specializing in Polearms and Leap Attack can be viable; I haven't explored it myself too much, I've only read about it and projected my imagination about it.

But yeah, props to you for style points. Keep on Dragoonin' :smallcool:

[Derjuin]

Wooooow.

My paladin is currently obliterating everything in his path using...

A flail, with runeword Black (Thul Io Nef). In nightmare mode, Act 4. My damage is piddly (71-500) but the 40% crushing blow is just AH MAH GAWD. Mephisto was an extreme pushover - my healthbar didn't leave max.

[-teacup]

So. . . am I playing my barb wrong by equipping a large weapon and leap attacking things to death? I mean, all I keep hearing about are shouts, and berserks, and concentrations and such. Noone ever mentions leap attack. Does it suck or something? Because I kinda enjoy leaping into the middle of a huge pack, slamming my target, then moving on to the rest.
Leap attack barbs are difficult, but I think they can work if you're patient. I've never built one though. Swarmalicious wrote a rather entertaining leap attack barb guide (http://allofthisisforyou.com/d2/leap.html), but I can't really judge how useful it is. I'd recommend putting a point in whirlwind for mopping up crowds of pesky low life monsters like flayers.


A flail, with runeword Black (Thul Io Nef). In nightmare mode, Act 4. My damage is piddly (71-500) but the 40% crushing blow is just AH MAH GAWD.
Yeah, black is a personal favorite for crushing blow focused characters like smiters and kicksins. It's pretty cheap too.

[Gnoman]

Dupes?


There is a bug in both Diablo I and II, which I don't know how to reproduce in DII, that allows you to duplicate any item. The same effect can be created in open multiplayer games by copying savegames.

[Battleship789]

Leap attack barbs are difficult, but I think they can work if you're patient. I've never built one though. Swarmalicious wrote a rather entertaining leap attack barb guide (http://allofthisisforyou.com/d2/leap.html), but I can't really judge how useful it is. I'd recommend putting a point in whirlwind for mopping up crowds of pesky low life monsters like flayers.


Yeah, black is a personal favorite for crushing blow focused characters like smiters and kicksins. It's pretty cheap too.

I ran a Leap Attack Barb for quite a while in single player/LAN (playing with my brother who was running a Fireball/FO Sorc) and got to level 80ish in Act 1 Hell. Pretty fun to play as and he was the farthest along character I had in Diablo 2.

Maxed out Mace Mastery (I used a Bonesnap for most of the game, upgrading it to the Exceptional and Elite versions as time went on), Leap, and Leap Attack, dropped 10 points into Whirlwind for trash mobs, a point in Concentration, Berserk, Shout, and Battle Command and I was on my way to maxing Battle Orders before my computer died and I lost the save files.

[willpell]

Also, "pure suicide" - coming from a guy who makes it a point to suicide against monsters because minimizing deaths is taboo for him. Really?

Really. It's not like I die on purpose; I simply take it for granted that the game will kill me if I let down my guard, and will periodically kill me even when my guard is up just because it's insanely lethal.


Weapon Mastery - requires you to actually know what weapon you will be using (which doesn't happen for many untwinked characters).

I just pick one at level 1-6 and stick with it. It's a way of theming my characters so they're different from each other. Though it does aggravate the "cool gear I can't use" problem.


Find potion and find item also do this, and appear earlier in the tree. Yes, the corpse looks like it's still there, but it can't be resurrected.

You are mistaken. I have seen Fallen get back up again after I Found Item on them. (Which means that theoretically I could Find Item the same Fallen forever, but I suspect the designers decided this wasn't a loophole worthy of bothering to close.)


Also, barbs have leap/leap attack as a one point wonder for jumping rivers. You don't need a bow.

The rivers are frequently too wide for that. Though I don't usually use a bow; two throwing weapons is more Barb-esque, and failing that I tend to prefer crossbows just because I can't give one to a Rogue.


Unless you're using some ancient unpatched version of the game, you can't pick up runes with TK. You can't even pick up gems with it.

Huh. Well, that's annoying.

[Winthur]

You are mistaken. I have seen Fallen get back up again after I Found Item on them. (Which means that theoretically I could Find Item the same Fallen forever, but I suspect the designers decided this wasn't a loophole worthy of bothering to close.)
Try it out in relation to what's actually important, which would be Corpse Explosion.



The rivers are frequently too wide for that. Though I don't usually use a bow; two throwing weapons is more Barb-esque, and failing that I tend to prefer crossbows just because I can't give one to a Rogue.

Rivers are never too wide for Leap Attack whose range is apparently the whole screen.