Ex-Assassin/Arcane Trickster and Death attack

[dascarletm]

I doubt it will work, but I'm trying to make a character that is an arcane trickster and ex-assassin, also good. Level progression would be Rog1/Wiz4/Ass1/ATr... The story is that the assassin saw the error in his ways (more drawn out, but I'll not go into it) and vowed to never kill again. So I took the vow of nonviolence, and nonlethal substitution. My questions are

Can I use knockout poisons? Or since poisons are "evil" they ruin exaltedness?
Can I use death attack only for the paralyzing effect?


I know that you need a melee attack, but can a touch spell be used? Also, in general, is there a way to make it work?

[Seharvepernfan]

Frankly, poisons being evil is stupid. They are no more evil than a sword or crossbow.

As a DM, since nothing your character does actually deals damage, I don't see the problem with it. However, I'm not too familiar with the Vow feats. Does it specify against combat? or just against dealing damage?

If the former, I'd say you can't do this.

[LanSlyde]

I doubt it will work, but I'm trying to make a character that is an arcane trickster and ex-assassin, also good. Level progression would be Rog1/Wiz4/Ass1/ATr... The story is that the assassin saw the error in his ways (more drawn out, but I'll not go into it) and vowed to never kill again. So I took the vow of nonviolence, and nonlethal substitution. My questions are

Can I use knockout poisons? Or since poisons are "evil" they ruin exaltedness?
Can I use death attack only for the paralyzing effect?


I know that you need a melee attack, but can a touch spell be used? Also, in general, is there a way to make it work?

I believe exalted deeds distinctly mentions its take on knockout poisons. Aside from that, you could always stick to ravages and afflictions. Considering your not actually killing your target, yes you can paralyze. Your using your extensive knowledge of fleshy bits to poke him just hard enough to incapacitate him.

[dascarletm]

Frankly, poisons being evil is stupid. They are no more evil than a sword or crossbow.

As a DM, since nothing your character does actually deals damage, I don't see the problem with it. However, I'm not too familiar with the Vow feats. Does it specify against combat? or just against dealing damage?

If the former, I'd say you can't do this.

Well you can't do HP damage, ability damage, or give negative levels, or you lose the benefit. I'm taking the metamagic non-lethal substitution feat. Since paralysis should be allowed, I'm just wondering if you can use death attack with a nonleathal touch attack spell.

[Seharvepernfan]

I don't know the official answer to this, but as far as I can tell: yes, you can.

Under death attack, it only says "makes a successful sneak attack", it does not mention anything about lethal or subdual damage. Since you can make a sneak attack doing subdual damage with a sap or unarmed strike, you ought to be able to make one with a spell that is designed for subdual damage (as yours are, with the feat). If I were your DM, I'd allow it, but only for the paralyzation effect, obviously.

[Ravens_cry]

Yeah, buy by RAW, they would still need to save against death. Now, we convinced a DM to houserule that you could do a coup de grace that rendered a target unconscious, and a non-lethal death attack would be similar.
Not realistic, but certainly thematic.
If I remember correctly, Exalted Deeds is OK with poisons that don't do ability damage.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Question 1: yes, because poisons aren't necessarily evil (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13856253&postcount=245).

Question 2: yes, death attack requires you make a successful sneak attack, which can be delivered with a sap or unarmed strike for non-lethal damage or a spell which can deal non-lethal damage thanks to non-lethal substitution, and has the option to paralyze without killing.

You're all clear, but I wouldn't expect that death attack to land much at DC 11 + int.

[dascarletm]

You're all clear, but I wouldn't expect that death attack to land much at DC 11 + int.

Well. Same level wizard, +2 base +1-3 con. Maybe vest of +1 2 at most. Worst +7 save best +3. Would the vow of nonviolence effect the death attack DC since it is being used with a spell? Probably not, but idk.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well. Same level wizard, +2 base +1-3 con. Maybe vest of +1 2 at most. Worst +7 save best +3. Would the vow of nonviolence effect the death attack DC since it is being used with a spell? Probably not, but idk.

Whoops. Forgot about the DC boost from vow of non-violence. It would indeed apply to the paralysis version of death attack, so long as the target was a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. 14+int isn't bad at all, but you're half-mad if you think you're getting close enough to a wizard to deliver it.

[eggs]

You might have better luck landing that death attack with a Marrulurk from Sandstorm. They have 3 HD, but they're one of the few races that's worth it: they come with a great stat array, 2d6 sneak attack, Rapid shot and built-in Charisma-based Death attack whose DC scales with HD (scaling is explicit per rules compendium's Extraordinary abilities parameters).

Something like Marrulurk Monstrous Humanoid 3/Sorcerer 2/Unseen Seer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 8 with LA buyoff would be two spell levels behind the wizard, which is kind of lame, but would build into 16 BA/17 CL, 6d6 SA (14d6 with Hunter's Eye) and DC 20+Cha death attack by ECL 20. That's workable for a gish, and it wouldn't be bound to an evil alignment.

[dascarletm]

Whoops. Forgot about the DC boost from vow of non-violence. It would indeed apply to the paralysis version of death attack, so long as the target was a humanoid or monstrous humanoid. 14+int isn't bad at all, but you're half-mad if you think you're getting close enough to a wizard to deliver it.

Well I'm only losing 2levels of casting so I'm pretty much a wizard myself. Only specialized to getting to them. I like my chances.:smallamused:


You might have better luck landing that death attack with a Marrulurk from Sandstorm. They have 3 HD, but they're one of the few races that's worth it: they come with a great stat array, 2d6 sneak attack, Rapid shot and built-in Charisma-based Death attack whose DC scales with HD (scaling is explicit per rules compendium's Extraordinary abilities parameters).

Something like Marrulurk Monstrous Humanoid 3/Sorcerer 2/Unseen Seer 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Unseen Seer 8 with LA buyoff would be two spell levels behind the wizard, which is kind of lame, but would build into 16 BA/16 CL, 6d6 SA (14d6 with Hunter's Eye) and DC 20+Cha death attack by ECL 20. That's workable for a gish, and it wouldn't be bound to an evil alignment.

That's probably pretty good, but the DM told me to keep optimization to a minimum. I'm looking for feat suggestions though! He'd like it if I kept mostly to core. I'm pushing it with abrupt jaunt:smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Maybe use Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) instead (that was actually an April Fool's joke, btw).

It wouldn't be unreasonable to just remove the Assassin's death attack ability in exchange for removing its alignment and special prerequisites. You should probably change its name to something like Agent instead in that case. Death Attack is pretty worthless anyway.

[dascarletm]

Maybe use Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a) instead (that was actually an April Fool's joke, btw).

It wouldn't be unreasonable to just remove the Assassin's death attack ability in exchange for removing its alignment and special prerequisites. You should probably change its name to something like Agent instead in that case. Death Attack is pretty worthless anyway.

The whole deal is that after being an assassin for some time (not too long) he declared never to kill another person again. Thus non-violence. Also a big part of the character motivation is to right his wrongs.

I would think Death attack is better for non-combat situations anyway.

[Piggy Knowles]

What if, instead of Arcane Trickster, you took a leaf out of this build (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/29138521/)'s book and went with Ultimate Magus?

With Ultimate Magus, you wouldn't need that starting rogue level, and you'd be able to do silly things like persist Hunter's Eye to more than make up the sneak attack differential.

Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Unseen Seer 4 would be a fine way to end up with for your build. If you were human, you could go with...

1. Wizard1- Sacred Vow, Apprentice: Criminal, Scribe Scroll
2. Wizard2-
3. Wizard3- Extend Spell
4. Wizard4-
5. Wizard5- Nonlethal Substitution
6. Assassin1- Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin)
7. Ultimate Magus1-
8. Ultimate Magus2-
9. Ultimate Magus3- Vow of Nonviolence
10. Ultimate Magus4-
11. Ultimate Magus5- Persistent Spell
12. Ultimate Magus6- Split Ray
13. Ultimate Magus7-
14. Unseen Seer1-
15. Unseen Seer2- Silent Spell, Residual Magic
16. Ultimate Magus8-
17. Ultimate Magus9- Twin Spell
18. Ultimate Magus10- Quicken Spell
19. Unseen Seer3-
20. Unseen Seer4-

(Again, I'm copying heavily from the Wizsassin build I linked to at the beginning of this thread... I can't really take credit for most of these options.)

I guess the best way to think of this is that you were trained as a criminal and an assassin, but then re-dedicated your life to good (retraining some of your early feats to Sacred Vow and Nonlethal Substitution). Again, I really recommend you read the thread I linked to at the beginning of this post, but the basic deal is that you use can use your higher level wizard spell slots to instead apply metamagic to some of your spontaneous spells... so, for example, you can easily persist spells, or fire off twinned split ray spells (that deal sneak damage on top of everything else). Residual Magic lets you do it twice in a row, too.

Pick up Hunter's Eye from your Unseen Seer levels. You'll naturally have +3d6 sneak, but with persistent Hunter's Eye your sneak should actually go through the roof. Then when you're firing off multiple twinned, split nonlethal rays, dealing nonlethal damage on their own + hefty SA damage + death attack to paralyze (hey, the DC is a little low but it's still there), you'll be quite the sniper.

And you can still choose to play like a normal wizard if the situation compels you...

[dascarletm]

That is something I will look into. Good suggestion.