firery sneak attack?

[GutterFace]

quick question(s)

if i am a dragonfire adept rogue gestalt (level6 starting)

as long as i am behind or on the side (flank) i can use sneak attack withing 30 feet right?

as now if i have a cone breath attack and i am behind or on the side of enemies i can apply sneak attack to the breath weapon in essence hitting all within range of the cone???

if i didnt use a damage breath weapon but lets say the Slow breath weapon the sneak attack would still apply?

[tyckspoon]

No. You can't Sneak Attack with an area attack; it only works on weapons and weapon-like attacks (in general, things that require attack rolls. If your target rolls a save and you didn't roll to hit him, it probably doesn't trigger Sneak Attack.)

[GutterFace]

interesting thanks ill keep that in mind

[Piggy Knowles]

Also, you seem to be a little confused on how sneak attack works. Being "behind or on the side" doesn't actually make a difference for sneak attacking.

There's a specific set of parameters that lets you sneak attack. The opponent needs to be denied his dexterity bonus versus you, or you need to be flanking him.

Flanking is a specific game term that doesn't just mean attacking from the side. It means making a melee attack when one of your allies is threatening the enemy from the opposite side. You both need to be adjacent to your enemy, and on opposite sides.

As for denying dex to AC, essentially the opponent can't get his dex to AC if he is unaware of you (in other words, he doesn't know you're there, so he can't dodge). This is also known as the flat-footed condition*.

Some ways of making an opponent flat-footed include...

Hiding or being invisible. If the opponent can't see you, he can't dodge your attacks.
Going before your opponent in the very first round of combat. Everyone is considered flat-footed until their turn first comes up, so if you have high initiative, you can frequently get off a round of SA... or two rounds, if you get a surprise round!
Forcing them to spend their attention elsewhere. Certain skills, like balance, leave the user flat-footed if they attempt to use it without a certain number of ranks. So doing things like hitting an enemy with a wand of grease, or dropping marbles under his feet, is a nice way to get off sneak attack.


This isn't EVERYTHING, but those are three of the most common ways. Simply being behind an opponent doesn't count as hiding or being invisible, though - third edition got rid of the "facing" rules.

(By the way, because it's so much easier to work with a buddy and flank your enemies compared to jumping through the above hoops, most sneak attack focused characters end up being melee based. It doesn't mean you can't be a good rogue who works at range - but it's harder.)

*Actually, there are some minor differences between flat-footed and denying dex to AC, but you can save that for another day - both conditions are fine for sneak attack.

[JBento]

You only flank opponents you threaten (no threatening, no flanking). Since you can't threaten with a breath weapon, no dice.

[GutterFace]

oh i see ok thats much clearer thanks!


ha ha so what about Skirmish? can that applied?

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like you are in this situation:

-You want to play a guy who uses breath attacks quite often
-You want the breath attacks to deal lots of damage
-You are playing gestalt

Is that right?

If that is the case... then why not ask for what the best ways to deal lots of damage with very regular breath attacks for a level 6 Gestalt character??

[eggs]

ha ha so what about Skirmish? can that applied?
Rule of thumb: if something triggers on an attack, it needs an attack roll to work. So no breath weapons, no fireballs, etc. Invisibility is the one exception coming to mind.

[shortround]

If you have 11 Charisma, dragonblood, and want your Sneak Attacks to be fiery, you can take Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic. It turns your sneak attack damage into fire damage and adds an additional 1d6 points of damage. From what I understand, it doesn't let you sneak attack things immune sneak attack damage, though.

[Venger]

If you have 11 Charisma, dragonblood, and want your Sneak Attacks to be fiery, you can take Dragonfire Strike from Dragon Magic. It turns your sneak attack damage into fire damage and adds an additional 1d6 points of damage. From what I understand, it doesn't let you sneak attack things immune sneak attack damage, though.

your assessment is correct. if you have draconic heritage, you can make it better types of damage.

here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260333) is an iron chef where we all do a class that has dragonfire strike as a class feature. structured around SA. many people used skirmish too, and DFA would fit nicely too.

[Rejakor]

You want an epic breath weapon attack?

Be a dragonborn.

Be a DFA.

Be a Dragon shaman.

All at once, preferably.

Have the Maximize Breath, Quicken Breath, Entangling Exhalation, and Clinging Breath feats.

Open up with an Entangling Exhalation over all the enemies using your DFA breath weapon. Then use your Dragon Shaman breath weapon (or dragonborn breath weapon, if you chose Heart and are level 6) as a swift action Quickened Clinging Breath, and set the Cling for however many rounds you want.

Your enemies are now entangled (i.e. slow) and are taking damage each round. You can keep them entangled with your DFA breath weapon while retreating and watching them slowly crumple into ash.

If your DM rules (RAW, this is how it works) that you can apply metabreath feats to your DFA breath weapon despite it not having a recharge time (as long as you have ONE breath weapon that has a recharge time, you can take metabreath feats, and the feats themselves never specify that they can only be applied to breath weapons with a recharge - they just specify they can only be applied to a breath weapon), then switch up your DFA breath weapon between Maximized Clinging standard breathes and Quickened Entangling swift action breathes.



There is a way to do things like this as a Sorcerer//DFA, but it's more annoying and takes more levels (it's more RAI, though) basically casting spells that make your breath weapon more boss.

[The Dark Fiddler]

All this being said, why not ask your GM if you could have, say, some sort of modifier for your breath weapon that would turn it into a single-target ranged touch attack? Maybe a metabreath feat, or put it on the list of Breath Effects with slow, cloud, etc.

[GutterFace]

Well this was just general discussion around the table.

it all started with the rogue wanting to have flaming arrows and using his sneak attack with them. the question was asked how do you sneak attack someone when you have the equivalent of a torch you plan on shooting them with.

which lead to me saying well why cant i sneak attack with a breath weapon?

i mean sneak attack says it has to be within 30 feet. breath weapon check.
i have to flank or have them denied their dex bonus to ac. ok easy, check. it says no where i have to/must use a melee weapon or ranged weapon within 30 feet.

we asked well why cant a rogue1/wizard4 hide in a bush and sneak attack with a fireball on a bunch of enemies? just because there is no attack roll?

i get why based on common sense it should not be ok to use a breath weapon with sneak attack.

i just wanted a solid clarification on the matter :) which i think i got :)

unless someone wants to overturn the previous posts ha ha

[Gavinfoxx]

You can sneak attack with:

-An Improvised Weapon
-A Greatsword
-A two handedWar Scythe
-A Reach Polearm
-A Ballista (and bolt)
-A Ray spell that deals damage
-Your Fists
-A weapon you aren't proficient with
-A Torch
-A weapon that you are weilding and taking a penalty on due to it being oversized (like a large greathammer or whatever)

Seriously. Sneak Attack can be done damaging things you can make an attack roll with!

[GutterFace]

as it states

Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically, the rogue's attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. (See Table 8—5: Attack Roll Modifiers and Table 8—6: Armor Class Modifiers, page 151, for combat situations in which the rogue flanks an opponent or the opponent loses his Dexterity bonus to AC.) Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. A rogue can't strike with deadly accuracy from beyond that range.

Our reading of Sneak Attack was based on not a function. but only as a rule. this is an ATTACK that is SNEAKY. your opponent doesnt know what you are about to do because you go first, are in hiding, or they cannot see you (flank).

[Gavinfoxx]

Sneak attack is not an attack that is sneaky, it is an attack where the enemy, for whatever reason, is less capable of defending themselves than they otherwise would be.

[LTwerewolf]

Sneak attack and skirmish are known as precision damage. Area effects cannot do precision damage, because they're not precise. They hit an entire area.

[GutterFace]

I agree!

i just needed to get this post back on topic.

to the meat of the specifics of Sneak Attack and not wanting a class that adds fire to sneak attacks or vice versa.

so thank you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sneak attack and skirmish are known as precision damage. Area effects cannot do precision damage, because they're not precise. They hit an entire area.

Actually, as long as they use an attack roll...

You can throw flasks and such, as long as they are attack-roll based (like alchemist's fire), you can deal precision damage with them. I am pretty sure that the splatter, which isn't attack roll based, doesnt work with sneak attack though.

[LTwerewolf]

Actually, as long as they use an attack roll...

You can throw flasks and such, as long as they are attack-roll based (like alchemist's fire), you can deal precision damage with them. I am pretty sure that the splatter, which isn't attack roll based, doesnt work with sneak attack though.

But that's the point, the area damage can't sneak attack, the precise hit can, which further backs up the idea.

[Gavinfoxx]

What do you want to do?

If you want a fiery sneak attack, you have plenty of ways.

Lesser Orb of Fire
Flask of Alchemist's Fire
Flaming Weapon
Scorching Ray (only one of the rays)
Lit Torch

[GutterFace]

OK this is what i was looking for!

[Gavinfoxx]

OK this is what i was looking for!

So, you should have said, as your post:

"How do I gain sneak attack damage with a fire based attack? How can I have an entire attack that does only fire damage, with no other types of damage, where some of the damage comes from sneak attack?"

[GutterFace]

LOL i was referring to the post right above your Fire one. about precise hits. although your post about adding fire damage was appreciated.

[dextercorvia]

Your enemies are now entangled (i.e. slow) and are taking damage each round. You can keep them entangled with your DFA breath weapon while retreating and watching them slowly crumple into ash.

Problem with step 3. Once you have used your Quickened Clinging Breath, you can't use any of your breath weapons until that cooldown time has expired.

[LTwerewolf]

Problem with step 3. Once you have used your Quickened Clinging Breath, you can't use any of your breath weapons until that cooldown time has expired.

Depends, if you have breath weapons from multiple sources this may not be the case.

[dextercorvia]

Depends, if you have breath weapons from multiple sources this may not be the case.

I was taking multiple sources into consideration. That is how he can do his DFA breath followed by his Dragonborn Breath. The problem is that once he activates his Dragonborn Breath, all of his breath weapons have to wait for that extended cooldown. Here is the quote.


Even if a creature has more than one type of breath weapon, the time between uses is a time during which it can’t use any of its breath weapons.

[Rejakor]

Well this was just general discussion around the table.

it all started with the rogue wanting to have flaming arrows and using his sneak attack with them. the question was asked how do you sneak attack someone when you have the equivalent of a torch you plan on shooting them with.

which lead to me saying well why cant i sneak attack with a breath weapon?

i mean sneak attack says it has to be within 30 feet. breath weapon check.
i have to flank or have them denied their dex bonus to ac. ok easy, check. it says no where i have to/must use a melee weapon or ranged weapon within 30 feet.

we asked well why cant a rogue1/wizard4 hide in a bush and sneak attack with a fireball on a bunch of enemies? just because there is no attack roll?

i get why based on common sense it should not be ok to use a breath weapon with sneak attack.

i just wanted a solid clarification on the matter :) which i think i got :)

unless someone wants to overturn the previous posts ha ha

If you want the in-game justification, you can stick a torch into someone's eye-socket, and you can fire a ray at someone's liver, and you can hit someone in their open mouth with a flask of acid, but you can't really do the same with a massive explosion of flame (like a fireball).

There aren't really any rules for what happens if you land a fireball bead into someone's mouth. But you could still argue that it goes off normally and fills the area normally and does normal damage because it still isn't a single focused point of attack (precision damage). (and there's also the fact that fireballs aren't like mundane explosions - they simply replace normal air with plasma very briefly and then the air pops back into place. If the spell can't expand to it's full size, it doesn't replace the full amount of air - it just replaces all the air it can replace, so it wouldn't do any more damage for being confined in a smaller space.

[vasharanpaladin]

All this being said, why not ask your GM if you could have, say, some sort of modifier for your breath weapon that would turn it into a single-target ranged touch attack? Maybe a metabreath feat, or put it on the list of Breath Effects with slow, cloud, etc.

Find some way to acquire the profane blast feature of an unholy ravager of Tiamat?

[Rejakor]

I was taking multiple sources into consideration. That is how he can do his DFA breath followed by his Dragonborn Breath. The problem is that once he activates his Dragonborn Breath, all of his breath weapons have to wait for that extended cooldown. Here is the quote.

Whelp, that's a hard nerf to DFAs.

As of rules compendium, then, that trick no longer works whatsoever. And the best use of a breath weapon is now to have one from race or template and use it as a one-shot wonder with quicken and cling and entangle (at a cost of 3 feats wasted), thanks gwendolyn f. m. kestrel.

[dextercorvia]

Whelp, that's a hard nerf to DFAs.

As of rules compendium, then, that trick no longer works whatsoever. And the best use of a breath weapon is now to have one from race or template and use it as a one-shot wonder with quicken and cling and entangle (at a cost of 3 feats wasted), thanks gwendolyn f. m. kestrel.

The first two blasts work, because it isn't so much that all of your BW get common cooldown, but that whatever cooldown is running affects all of your BW.

[Rejakor]

Well it means that you can't use a breath weapon with a cooldown alongside your DFA breath weapon - at least, you can't use the cooldown and then use your DFA next round.

So there's no point doing the thing with lots of breath weapon feats and 2 breath weapons.

Ever.

So you might as well just be a DFA and use your crappy breath weapon for crappy damage every round, or have a cooldown breath weapon and use it occasionally for Damage Over Time clinging entangling assaults before running like heck.

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd totally use independent cooldowns, unless the source of the breath weapon is like dragons with multiple breath weapon types -- ie, EVERYTHING runs off of one pool of breath weapons.

But to me it sounds like there are two 'sets' of breath weapon pools. One pool is cooldown based, one is at will...

[dextercorvia]

I'd totally use independent cooldowns, unless the source of the breath weapon is like dragons with multiple breath weapon types -- ie, EVERYTHING runs off of one pool of breath weapons.

But to me it sounds like there are two 'sets' of breath weapon pools. One pool is cooldown based, one is at will...

Its not an unreasonable houserule certainly. The investment required to get multiple breathweapons likely balances the benefits of being able to use mulitple meta-breaths in a single combat.

[gorfnab]

If you went with Warlock instead of DFA you could take Brimestone Blast. This would give you a "Fiery Sneak Attack" since the Warlock's Eldritch Blast requires an attack roll.

[Rejakor]

Well, it's definitely not unreasonable - it's just that whatever idiot wrote the rules compendium derped it up in the favour of incredibly low levels of balance. Half the time I swear this whole hobby is just holding in the tide of people who think that attacking with a 50% chance for 5 damage is an amazing game mechanic and that anything else is 'munchkin' and 'overpowered'.

The heroes of any movie, TV show, or book is unmodelable in those games except for very low powered heroes/main characters and at level 20 or 30.

It's just ridiculous.