Ghosts and Trickery Involving Ghost Touch

[Raidatheblade]

So, I've been working for a few days on designing a ghost character, using a combination of stuff from Libris Mortis, and more importantly, Ghostwalk... During my work to make sure there weren't any issues in the build that I could be accused of exploiting, I came up with an odd question.

What would happen if an incorporeal creature, such as a GW 'Ghost', were to be fighting somebody using a weapon with Ghost Touch, and grabbed the hilt of it since their hand would go through the normal persons, and then flew up?

It gets even more complciated when you add in the 'Ghostly Grip' feat from Libris Mortis. As that point, what's to prevent the ghost from grabbing an enemy by the shirt or armor, and just flying them up and dropping them?

They have no strength score, but since they are able to effect these items when there's not a person on the other end, I have to wonder...

I found this: "An incorporeal creature wearing ghost touch armor isn't actually carrying the armor around -- it just floats along with the creature." in a Skip Williams article on Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) so near as I can tell, the same might apply for trying to lift a person by their ghost touch gear.

You would attempt to make it float with you, but not actually apply force, while they would apply force and stop it without trying too hard...

But then when you deal with that feat and moving normal items, how does that work? Do they act the same as ghost touch would, or are you somehow applying force without a strength score?

Basically, I am quite confused about it. What do you illustrious people think? e.e

[Empedocles]

So, I've been working for a few days on designing a ghost character, using a combination of stuff from Libris Mortis, and more importantly, Ghostwalk... During my work to make sure there weren't any issues in the build that I could be accused of exploiting, I came up with an odd question.

What would happen if an incorporeal creature, such as a GW 'Ghost', were to be fighting somebody using a weapon with Ghost Touch, and grabbed the hilt of it since their hand would go through the normal persons, and then flew up?

It gets even more complciated when you add in the 'Ghostly Grip' feat from Libris Mortis. As that point, what's to prevent the ghost from grabbing an enemy by the shirt or armor, and just flying them up and dropping them?

They have no strength score, but since they are able to effect these items when there's not a person on the other end, I have to wonder...

I found this: "An incorporeal creature wearing ghost touch armor isn't actually carrying the armor around -- it just floats along with the creature." in a Skip Williams article on Wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) so near as I can tell, the same might apply for trying to lift a person by their ghost touch gear.

You would attempt to make it float with you, but not actually apply force, while they would apply force and stop it without trying too hard...

But then when you deal with that feat and moving normal items, how does that work? Do they act the same as ghost touch would, or are you somehow applying force without a strength score?

Basically, I am quite confused about it. What do you illustrious people think? e.e

Responding due to a PM.

This is...sort of tricky. My first instinct is that this would be the same as any flying creature picking somebody up with intent to drop them...but since the ghost is incorporeal they couldn't really resist could they?

This definitely isn't covered by the normal rules, as far as I'm aware :smallannoyed: In the case of the weapon, I'd rule it as a sort of disarm attempt. The player (hopefully) wouldn't be stupid enough to hold on to the weapon after the ghost grabs it, so if the ghost is successful in taking it he simply is disarmed.

The other stuff is a lot trickier. Frankly, I think it would require DM intervention/house ruling. Sorry I can't be of more help, but this really is a strange situation your describing, which would actually come up quite a bit if you're playing Ghostwalk ghost rules.

Tell me what you think...

[Raidatheblade]

Yeah... It really is a weird one...

I was hoping to find an answer within the realms of the normal rules, but it does seem like there isn't much to deal with this...

I guess that the easiest way to deal with it would just be to combine the idea of something with a strength of 0 not being able to exert force along with the thing from Skip's article where ghost touch items are just floating along with the ghost, as opposed to them moving it...

So then, what could be said as a general rule is that a ghost or other incorporeal creature can only influence/weild a ghost touch item (or normal, if using the Ghostly Grasp feat) while manipulating it would be unopposed. Whatever mystical force allows them to use it is stopped by a normal person, even a farmer, exerting force to stop it...

And for the more ridiculous applications of the Ghostly Grasp, I'd just argue a RAW thing, since it only talks about using items, so the ghost player couldn't fly to the top of the hill and push down the bolder, even though it's "unopposed" e.e

It's kinda janky and basic, but it would stop most of the trickery, at least I think so...

What do you think about that as a basic home-rule for it?

[Empedocles]

Yeah... It really is a weird one...

I was hoping to find an answer within the realms of the normal rules, but it does seem like there isn't much to deal with this...

I guess that the easiest way to deal with it would just be to combine the idea of something with a strength of 0 not being able to exert force along with the thing from Skip's article where ghost touch items are just floating along with the ghost, as opposed to them moving it...

So then, what could be said as a general rule is that a ghost or other incorporeal creature can only influence/weild a ghost touch item (or normal, if using the Ghostly Grasp feat) while manipulating it would be unopposed. Whatever mystical force allows them to use it is stopped by a normal person, even a farmer, exerting force to stop it...

And for the more ridiculous applications of the Ghostly Grasp, I'd just argue a RAW thing, since it only talks about using items, so the ghost player couldn't fly to the top of the hill and push down the bolder, even though it's "unopposed" e.e

It's kinda janky and basic, but it would stop most of the trickery, at least I think so...

What do you think about that as a basic home-rule for it?

Yeah, that sounds good. As long as there's nothing too ridiculous and cheap here, I guess.