Unusual Optimization help request.

[dungeonnerd]

Hi guys, I'm Dungeonnerd. Longtime reader, first time poster.

Here's my sitch - I'm having a bit of trouble optomizing my character progression. First, the rundown:

My character is an Awakened Gelatinous Cube. Total ECL: 7 (we just hit enough EXP for level 8, and my fifth hitdice). We're in a Horrifically Overpowered game (using the feat book of the same name) and I'm just not sure where to go.
At the moment, my stats are thus - STR18 DEX9 CON34 INT18 WIS18 CHA15. Size: Huge (15x15x15, reach 15) [DM used old version stat block for size, but 3.5 for stat mods, and fiat'd the reach]

I have no skills at the moment (part of the trade off of with the DM), as cubes have no innate skills because they are usually mindless.

Flaws: Shaky and Inattentive

Feats: Gestalt (monk) and Gestalt (fighter) - I'm treated as a monk and fighter of half my HD for those class' abilities (bonus feats, flurry, unarmed damage, etc).
Offensive Combat - BAB is always fighter, regardless of class
Prestigious (Shiba Protector) - same as gestalt, but for prestige classes. LEVEL req6, (HD-5)/2, minimum 1.

Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus(Slam), Power Attack

Monk Bonus Feats: Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes (hedging a bet due to my huge size and reach)

Abilities: Transparent, electricity immune, ooze immunities, paralysis, flurry of blows, acid damage, blindsight, evasion, fast movement, still mind, no mind.

My next feat (at 6HD) is going to be Prestigious (Fist of the Forest) for increased unarmed damage and CON to AC. A future feat will come from ToB (outlawed book, except for this feat) that will increase my effective monk level by 4.

Current AC is 13 = 10+1(BoA)-1(dex)-2(size)+1(Ring of Prot)+2(Natural Armor)+4(WIS)+1(monk bonus). Often have Mage Armor and Owls Wisdom buffs from the cleric and the wizard, bringing this to 19.

Current HP: 88 (4d10 +48)
Alignment: NE, and I've managed to embezzle a fairly sizable sum from the party so far - something to the tune of 59,260gp which doesn't include my portion of the party treasure.

Special Rules: I have an alabaster Skeleton encased in my wobbly goodness, and any magic items that I can equip onto the skeleton will affect me as well. Currently equipped: Amulet of Nat Armor+2, Bracers of Armor+1, Ring of Protection+1, and a stone monks belt.

We're using level buyoff rules, so at ninth level I can buy off my first of my +3LA. I'm just not sure what class to take - I don't want to take a caster unless there's a very compelling argument for it; there's something just amazingly fun about dropping 50,000 pounds of jello on something and eating it while you flurry his friends to death.

So, basically I have 16 levels of progression to fill. I can drop 1-2 level dips with the feats above if there's nothing more pressing to take. I was giving thoughts to Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman for sheer amusement.

Any help or amusing thoughts you guys have would be much appreciated!

[gooddragon1]

Hi guys, I'm Dungeonnerd. Longtime reader, first time poster.

Here's my sitch - I'm having a bit of trouble optomizing my character progression. First, the rundown:

My character is an Awakened Gelatinous Cube. Total ECL: 7 (we just hit enough EXP for level 8, and my fifth hitdice). We're in a Horrifically Overpowered game (using the feat book of the same name) and I'm just not sure where to go.
At the moment, my stats are thus - STR18 DEX9 CON34 INT18 WIS18 CHA15. Size: Huge (15x15x15, reach 15) [DM used old version stat block for size, but 3.5 for stat mods, and fiat'd the reach]

I have no skills at the moment (part of the trade off of with the DM), as cubes have no innate skills because they are usually mindless.

Flaws: Shaky and Inattentive

Feats: Gestalt (monk) and Gestalt (fighter) - I'm treated as a monk and fighter of half my HD for those class' abilities (bonus feats, flurry, unarmed damage, etc).
Offensive Combat - BAB is always fighter, regardless of class
Prestigious (Shiba Protector) - same as gestalt, but for prestige classes. LEVEL req6, (HD-5)/2, minimum 1.

Fighter Bonus Feats: Weapon Focus(Slam), Power Attack

Monk Bonus Feats: Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes (hedging a bet due to my huge size and reach)

Abilities: Transparent, electricity immune, ooze immunities, paralysis, flurry of blows, acid damage, blindsight, evasion, fast movement, still mind, no mind.

My next feat (at 6HD) is going to be Prestigious (Fist of the Forest) for increased unarmed damage and CON to AC. A future feat will come from ToB (outlawed book, except for this feat) that will increase my effective monk level by 4.

Current AC is 13 = 10+1(BoA)-1(dex)-2(size)+1(Ring of Prot)+2(Natural Armor)+4(WIS)+1(monk bonus). Often have Mage Armor and Owls Wisdom buffs from the cleric and the wizard, bringing this to 19.

Current HP: 88 (4d10 +48)
Alignment: NE, and I've managed to embezzle a fairly sizable sum from the party so far - something to the tune of 59,260gp which doesn't include my portion of the party treasure.

Special Rules: I have an alabaster Skeleton encased in my wobbly goodness, and any magic items that I can equip onto the skeleton will affect me as well. Currently equipped: Amulet of Nat Armor+2, Bracers of Armor+1, Ring of Protection+1, and a stone monks belt.

We're using level buyoff rules, so at ninth level I can buy off my first of my +3LA. I'm just not sure what class to take - I don't want to take a caster unless there's a very compelling argument for it; there's something just amazingly fun about dropping 50,000 pounds of jello on something and eating it while you flurry his friends to death.

So, basically I have 16 levels of progression to fill. I can drop 1-2 level dips with the feats above if there's nothing more pressing to take. I was giving thoughts to Dragonfire Adept and Dragon Shaman for sheer amusement.

Any help or amusing thoughts you guys have would be much appreciated!


Situations like this are why i recommend every character take a 1 level dip in warblade at 9th level: Ironheart Surge and White Raven Tactics (get one or the other through a feat). Specifically the first one in this case: Negative levels you say? Nope. A diease!!! BY CROM!

The other is for the situation that the DM says: Thy character shall suck now and only 1 in the group may be of use.

To which you reply: Then the fun shall be DOUBLED!

Those two maneuvers are worth having.

[eggs]

I have no idea how half of this works. Is it all out of the Horrifically Overpowered book?

It looks like you're picking up half-progression PrCs for a feat while ignoring their prereqs. If that's not wrong, beholder mage and ur-priest would be like full wizard/cleric progression for two feats, and sublime chord would have you casting level 6 spells already.

[dungeonnerd]

Gooddragon - Unfortunately, ToB is outlawed or I would take that exact path already.

Eggs - Part of the reason I don't want to play caster is that our wizard is already doing that particular run (without the sublime chord... i'll have to mention that to him). The feats Gestalt, Prestigious, and Offensive Combat are from Horrifically Overpowered Feats. Gestalt gives HD/2 in a class' abilities, prestigious gives (HD-5)/2 - so no, you aren't wrong.

[avr]

A ring of blinking (27K) would be an excellent defence for you and might let you charge thru doors for a slight variation on your death from above trick. You might dip rogue to make more use of it, but if you're not getting skills I wouldn't.

An amulet of mighty fists is almost certainly more useful than an amulet of natural armour for you. If the MIC is available you could combine them of course.

Does your concept come from rustyandco.com, by the way?

[Kelb_Panthera]

A ring of blinking (27K) would be an excellent defence for you and might let you charge thru doors for a slight variation on your death from above trick. You might dip rogue to make more use of it, but if you're not getting skills I wouldn't.

An amulet of mighty fists is almost certainly more useful than an amulet of natural armour for you. If the MIC is available you could combine them of course.

Does your concept come from rustyandco.com, by the way?

The amulet of mighty fists is garbage, only use it if you can't get a necklace of natural attacks or some other means of enhancing your natural attacks.

Seriously, it costs 3X what any normal weapon with the same enhancement does and it can't have special qualities, only an enhancement bonus. :smallyuk:

[dungeonnerd]

A ring of blinking (27K) would be an excellent defence for you and might let you charge thru doors for a slight variation on your death from above trick. You might dip rogue to make more use of it, but if you're not getting skills I wouldn't.

An amulet of mighty fists is almost certainly more useful than an amulet of natural armour for you. If the MIC is available you could combine them of course.

Does your concept come from rustyandco.com, by the way?

No, I've been trying to convince this DM to let me play this cube for a couple years now, and he's finally agreed because of the OP nature of the campagin. So, of course, I want to break it as much as possible. I've never actually heard of rustyandco, i'll have to check it out.

And once I start in actual class levels, I'll get skill points - 'm just missing seven levels at them moment (four after full buyoff). A rogue dip isn't a bad idea, especially with blink and Sneak Attack.

I'll have to check about the mighty fists amulet - it's a post-apoc world, so most magic items are only found by adventuring. There are some small shops though, so I might get lucky - or I can just keep the wizard alive a few more levels and make him craft it for me. You'd be surprised how far "do it or I eat you" goes.


[Edit]: Okay, yeah. Necklace is better than amulet by a zillion times.

And my cube wasn't based on Rustyandco before... but now im considering swashbuckler just for the hat and sash.

[Sith_Happens]

Unfortunately, ToB is outlawed

Not for balance reasons, I hope...

Anyways, you said you want to avoid going caster, but does that include psionic? Because a Gelatinous Cube Psion would be hilarious.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, I've been trying to convince this DM to let me play this cube for a couple years now, and he's finally agreed because of the OP nature of the campagin. So, of course, I want to break it as much as possible. I've never actually heard of rustyandco, i'll have to check it out.

And once I start in actual class levels, I'll get skill points - 'm just missing seven levels at them moment (four after full buyoff). A rogue dip isn't a bad idea, especially with blink and Sneak Attack.

I'll have to check about the mighty fists amulet - it's a post-apoc world, so most magic items are only found by adventuring. There are some small shops though, so I might get lucky - or I can just keep the wizard alive a few more levels and make him craft it for me. You'd be surprised how far "do it or I eat you" goes.


[Edit]: Okay, yeah. Necklace is better than amulet by a zillion times.

And my cube wasn't based on Rustyandco before... but now im considering swashbuckler just for the hat and sash.

Item rarity is usually a very bad thing, though balance has already been dashed upon the rocks of "fun" by the inclusion of a book that admits it's overpowered in its very title.

I can't suggest strongly enough going into kensai (CW) to designate either your unarmed strike or natural slam as your signature weapon and possibly trying to found a legacy (weapons of legacy) for a body slot item. If you can squeeze in an item familiar too then you should be able to generate enough magic item goodness all by yourself.

Signature weapon will be good enough if it's all you can get, most of the needs of the typical adventurer can be met by one or another magic weapon property.

[dungeonnerd]

Not for balance reasons, I hope...

Anyways, you said you want to avoid going caster, but does that include psionic? Because a Gelatinous Cube Psion would be hilarious.

I'm not familiar with psionics, to be honest. If it can meld well with the melee abilities I have then I don't see why not. My goal is to basically look like a fruit salad after an encounter is over - bones, weapons, other non-digestibles floating about in me.

I also came across the warlock eldrict shape: claw, which is just flat funny on a pseudopod

[Spuddles]

Cleric (or ur-priest) meshes well with melee, as you can buff yourself.

Psions get a lot of swift action powers and solid buffs, which of course contribute well to melee.

[Sith_Happens]

I'm not familiar with psionics, to be honest. If it can meld well with the melee abilities I have then I don't see why not. My goal is to basically look like a fruit salad after an encounter is over - bones, weapons, other non-digestibles floating about in me.

Psychic Warrior power list (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#psychicWarriorPowers), a.k.a. ALL the buffs.

[Rejakor]

As a note, when it comes to psionics -

Psions get better buffs than psywars. It seems like it's the other way around, but even without the big ones (Control Body, Metamorphosis)(neither of which is super useful for you) they can do more for themselves thanks to more PP and faster power access.

Erudites get to learn all the powers, including psywar ones, and thus get fantastic buffs really fast.


Ardents are limited by Manifester Level, not Class Level, in learning new powers - so despite their annoying spell selection and whatnot, by RAW the Practiced Caster feat applies to psionics as well (under transparency), and thus you can get a ML = to your level with some feat investment, and thus get level-suitable powers. You can also chop and change mantles thanks to a rule in a web-supplement for complete psionic. Which lets you essentially customize your mantles and pick whatever powers you want.

[Sith_Happens]

by RAW the Practiced Caster feat applies to psionics as well (under transparency),

Actually, the RAW for magic-psionics transparency is that it only applies to SR/PR, dispelling, detecting, and Anti[X] Field.

[eggs]

...by RAW the Practiced Caster feat applies to psionics as well (under transparency)
Just to nitpick, this is not true.

Transparency only applies to a select few things, feats and class features not being among them:
"Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics. "

[Waddacku]

Either way, you could just take, you know, Practiced Manifester instead and save yourself the trouble.

[Rejakor]

You are correct.

I am thinking of the granted power of the Magic Mantle.

Which is also much more ambiguous. And therefore less useful. But theoretically you could take it as an ardent, and it sounds like it fits the style of the game.

[dungeonnerd]

I've spent a good chunk today reading about psionic classes. And while I enjoyed what I read - especially some of the power combos - and hilarity of the idea aside, it feels too much like a caster for my basic concept, which is to drop myself into battle and lay waste.

I love what you guys have suggested, but I don't think it's what I want for this particular character (my next one, on the other hand...). Can you guys think of non-ToB melee progressions that would be as optomized as possible without getting away from the jello-of-doom idea?

[Rejakor]

Well with no ToB, and not 'casting-esque' stuff (not even buffs...) then you're left with.. not much.

Thrall of Juiblex going into Warshaper, maybe?

Abberration Blood, Inhuman Reach, Extend Tentacles, Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes?

um.

Karmic Strike + Improved Grab = Eat Everyone?

Paimon! Dance of Death + Improved Grab = Eat Everyone in a 30' line.

Dervish would also do something similar.

Frenzied Berserker would be more of a charging/cleavey route

do you have a good wisdom? You could stack wisdom, or con, to AC, and be the dodgecube. deepwarden/fist of the forest for one, and you can't do any of the stuff for the other. Monk, I guess. Woo unarmed cube action.

You could go for Forsaker. I mean, do you even use magic items? Why use them? EAT THEM.

[Malroth]

Dragonfire Adept. make use of that monstrous Con of yours for some really nice battlefield control.

[dungeonnerd]

do you have a good wisdom? You could stack wisdom, or con, to AC, and be the dodgecube. deepwarden/fist of the forest for one, and you can't do any of the stuff for the other. Monk, I guess. Woo unarmed cube action.

You could go for Forsaker. I mean, do you even use magic items? Why use them? EAT THEM.

STR18 DEX9 CON34 INT18 WIS18 CHA15, and I'm considered a monk of half my HD. Also considered a fighter of half my HD (yay bonus feats!). Fist of the Forest is coming up shortly, actually.

I have an alabaster Skeleton encased in my wobbly goodness, and any magic items that I can equip onto the skeleton will affect me as well. Currently equipped: Amulet of Nat Armor+2, Bracers of Armor+1, Ring of Protection+1, and a stone monks belt.

So I'm effectively (for purposes of unarmed damage and AC bonus) a seventh level monk at the moment.

[Edit] Also, the main reason I'm not concerned about buffing myself is because my party has two clerics and a wizard in it. If there's ever a moment when I'm not buffed, we all get eaten.

[dungeonnerd]

Dragonfire Adept. make use of that monstrous Con of yours for some really nice battlefield control.

The more I read these forums, the better the Dragonfire Adept looks in general, actually lol.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

See if you can take the feat Detach from Savage Species.

[Rejakor]

Take three levels of Stoneblessed (Dwarf) and 2 levels of Deepwarden.

Both from Races of stone.

You will be awesome at diplomacy with dwarves (who will see you as one of their own), and get con to AC (twice, with fist of the forest).


But I think what you REALLY REALLY WANT is more reach.

So!

GET BIGGER.

Erudite or Ardent or Psywar is great for this, as pound for pound, Expansion is the best size-increasing spell/power in the game (short of Giant Size).

The point of being a spellcaster is that most of the best buffs in the game are Personal only, and most of the Personal ones don't have prereqs like Mind Affecting or One Humanoid Touched etc. Bite of the WereX is one of the best buff spells in the game, and it is personal.

Also check out the Extended Reach feat from Savage Species - you qualify for it, and it adds +5' reach.

Personal only spells exist that increase reach (some quite low level) and there's one that makes you grow 2 tentacles that add to your full attack and grapple.



ALL OF THAT SAID

One of your gestalt sides should be an incarnum class. I recommend Totemist.

Blink Shirt bound to Totem Chakra + Large Reach + Combat Reflexes = Move action to teleport into the middle of enemies, standard to do whatever you like, then AoO everyone forever.

If you have a monk's belt there is no real reason to be a monk, you have 5 levels in the class from the belt already.

I'd do something like Totemist//Erudite, just go nuts with your full BAB and erudite buffs and teleporting, and asap pick up Teflammar Shadowlord as a prestige class, and with 2 things bound to your totem chakra (split chakra feat at 9 HD) you can grab 4 claw attacks as well as move action teleportation, and you can Shadowpounce twice a round for your unarmed strike routine and slam attacks and 4 claws, all of which, with the right feats, can improved grab. Dip Incarnate for Incarnate Avatar (Evil) and you get a nice boost to your damage on all your many, many attacks.

Erudite can make you grow claw and bite attacks, using psywar powers (so you'll need to find, and mindrape, a psywar), as well as making you bigger, teleporting you as a swift or immediate action, giving you wide area blasting if you want it, Slime Wave!!!!!, and defences against enemy spells and the like.

[Suddo]

No matter how much of a head ache it may cause why not try being a Totemist from Magic of Incarnum.


I'll just let people think about how a Cube binds chakra points.

[Snowbluff]

You need to be a Soul Eater. Eat peoples souls. Deal Negative Levels. Be cool.

[Zubrowka74]

May I ask how do you fluff being able to equip stuff on the skeleton ?

[Snowbluff]

Rejakor, Blink Shirt is Dimnesion Door, isn't it? That would mean you end your turn when you use it, so you can't take a standard after blinking.

[eggs]

I'll just let people think about how a Cube binds chakra points.
Renaming is definitely in order - I would love to see someone bind Mage spectacles to their uppermost gelatinous expanse chakra or Astral vambraces to their quivering eastern edge. :smallbiggrin:

[Snowbluff]

Renaming is definitely in order - I would love to see someone bind Mage spectacles to their uppermost gelatinous expanse chakra or Astral vambraces to their quivering eastern edge. :smallbiggrin:

Feng Shui points. :smallbiggrin:

[Suddo]

Renaming is definitely in order - I would love to see someone bind Mage spectacles to their uppermost gelatinous expanse chakra or Astral vambraces to their quivering eastern edge. :smallbiggrin:

Well its kind of the question of do you even get any chakra point (beyond maybe 1) I mean does the no armed man get a hand chakra slot?

[toapat]

Well its kind of the question of do you even get any chakra point (beyond maybe 1) I mean does the no armed man get a hand chakra slot?

eh, you just slowly over time select the choicest skeletons you eat, and slowly create a skeleton for you to bind soulmelds to

[TopCheese]

Gooddragon - Unfortunately, ToB is outlawed or I would take that exact path already.

Eggs - Part of the reason I don't want to play caster is that our wizard is already doing that particular run (without the sublime chord... i'll have to mention that to him). The feats Gestalt, Prestigious, and Offensive Combat are from Horrifically Overpowered Feats. Gestalt gives HD/2 in a class' abilities, prestigious gives (HD-5)/2 - so no, you aren't wrong.

Ok first off that is halarious that ToB is outlawed in a game like this.

Pleeeeeeease go Totemist! My first thought was Totemist but someone beat me to it waaay long before I even read the thread.

It even fits themattically! You were awaken by mother nature to get revenge!

[doko239]

<Derail thread>

Should totally make him a Swashbuckler (http://rustyandco.com/comic/36/).

</derail thread>

In all seriousness though, Awaken would change your creature type to Magical Beast I believe, in which case a custom continuous item of Disguise Self could give you some mileage. You're not a Gelatinous Cube, you're a Unicorn! A pretty, pretty unicorn... made out of acid... yeah...

[toapat]

<Derail thread>

Should totally make him a Swashbuckler (http://rustyandco.com/comic/36/).

</derail thread>

In all seriousness though, Awaken would change your creature type to Magical Beast I believe, in which case a custom continuous item of Disguise Self could give you some mileage. You're not a Gelatinous Cube, you're a Unicorn! A pretty, pretty unicorn... made out of acid... yeah...

or a Gryphon, flyspeed and acid

[Kelb_Panthera]

Well its kind of the question of do you even get any chakra point (beyond maybe 1) I mean does the no armed man get a hand chakra slot?

MoI actually covers this in a sidebar in the new creatures section. By RAW a gelatinous cube would only get his soul chakra.

However, the inclusion of that alabaster skeleton might change things up a bit, making this a DM call. It'd be kinda wierd having what appears to be a skeletal totemist inside your jiggly goodness. Then again, it might be awesome-sauce.

[Rubik]

I would suggest a few levels in dungeoncrasher fighter [or replace your "normal" gestalt-type levels with dungeoncrasher] and then make your way to a level in monk [unless your entire body counts as a natural/manufactured weapon, as the monk's does], and then go kensai, focusing on your unarmed strike. The enhancement bonuses won't stack with the necklace from Savage Species, but the weapon abilities will. Grab throwing, distance, ghost touch [at will incorporeality!], and so on. Get a weapon crystal, stack as many bonuses as you can on it, and attach it to yourself like a lapel pin [since your unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon, there's no reading of RAW that can prevent it, other than Rule Zero]. Turn your own body into an item familiar, as well.

It'll be awesome.

Also, you NEEEEEED to find a way into the initiate of the sevenfold veil. Why? Because this. (http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g111/Lycanthromancer/Non-Motivators/sup2-1.jpg)

[dungeonnerd]

Okay, so if I make my wizard create a Ring of Enlarge and Mighty Wallop, (both first level spells, so 1(SL)x1(CL)x2000(continuous effect)x2(Multiple spells in item) =4000gp) then I'll be gargantuan size and hitting at collasal damage.

At the moment, with a feat progression that runs 6: Prestigious (Fist of the Forest) 9: Superior Unarmed Strike (literally the only thing allowed in game from ToB) 12: Prestigious (Deepwarden) 15: Extend Reach (Reach+5') and 18: Prestigious (Dragon Descendant)
This means that at 20th level I'm doing damage as a 28th level monk[which does not increase past 20th, sadly], have the AC and Speed bonuses as a 20th level monk, and have all other monk abilities at 10th level. I also get CON to AC twice, some nice personal buffs and powers.

So that makes my damage go from 2d10 (20th level medium monk) > 4d8 (Large) > 6d8 (Huge) > 8d8 (Gargantuan) > 12d8 (Collasal) if I'm reading my tables right. And I hit this damage cap at 17.

I have 4/6 fighter feats that are blank at the moment. My first two feats (already taken) are Weapon Focus and Power Attack. I'm thinking the next four should go Effective Fighter Level 4: Combat Expertise 6: Weapon Specialization 8: Improved Trip 10: Combat Reflexes? < Im not sure about this one, since my dex is only 9, but I can pump it pretty easily by this point in the game.

I love Totemists, but I'm about 80% sure the DM will rule that the only chakras available are totem and soul, due to being a big cube. I'll make the argument for having all though, due to his ruling on my skeleton.

So, that being said, what do you think of these progression ideas:

Totemist2/Psychic Warrior16 - this is mainly about blink shirt and psychic buffs (yes, you guys have made a good case here lol).

Totemist2/Druid5/Master of Many Forms9 - this is basically because the idea of turning into an ooze-dragon or ooze-elemental amuses the hell out of me.

Assuming I can find a way to become Lawful, (the DM is a stickler about prestige class entry - hence my abusing of the feat that he probably didn't read very well):

totemist2/Kensai10/...4 (psywar maybe, for the expansion power?)
Warlock6/HellfireWarlock3/Kensai7 - This is a claw-lock build with Fell Flight for dropping my 50,000+ lbs of jiggly goodness on someones head.

Honestly, I'm kinda leaning to either the totemist/psywar or the warlock/hellfire/kensai build.
Blink-war could be a lot of fun, i think.
Clawlock+Hellfire+G.Chaucible = 12d8+8d6 on each melee attack, which is just a happy roll.

[Sith_Happens]

custom continuous item of Disguise Self

You mean like this one (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hatofDisguise)?:smalltongue:

[Rejakor]

Don't waste a feat on superior unarmed strike.

Fist of the Forest does not stack with it or with monk unarmed damage progression. FoF just starts at 1d8 and ends up at 2d8 (which then increases with size bonuses and spells and Improved Natural Attack as normal). That Prestigious feat is what you should be spamming. Get one for FoF, Deepwarden and Kensai. Then you're fine for whatever else.

For your class levels, considering you only get basically 11 on each side, I would say Totemist 2/Fighter 8//Ardent 10. Ardent, as stated before, lets you use powers based on ML (and there are lots of ways of increasing ML without taking levels in psionic classes) since your mantles go all the way from 1st to 9th powers and you 'know' all of them. You can use the Custom Mantle rules to cherrypick powers from any list, and even switch them around as you level up. Dominant Ideal ACF, at level 10, lets you break the action economy in half and execute epic teleporting doomstunts.

Better, psionic teleportation is not based on dimension door. THUS, you can teleport into and through combat using Dimension Slide and other powers.

Totemist 2 is if your GM allows your alabaster skeleton to grant you chakra slots. If it does, then you can use Girallon Claws to grant you 4 claw attacks and stacking grapple bonus based on your HD not class level (max essentia is based on character level) which with your huge strength should help you out tons.

Extended Reach is a must asap (i.e. as soon as you have the prestigious feats - i'd retrain your earlier feats if you can), and for your fighter feats, spend them on a melee combo (I suggest lockdown tripper, using your full attack to smack people, your AoOs to trip, and swift action teleportation to get around).

Getting access to an item of alter self, or a custom feat, in order to impersonate non-ooze things (like a humanoid, wrapped around your skeleton) would make you an awesome assassin (be the floor) given your brutal full attack and teleportation from Ardent.

[dungeonnerd]

Don't waste a feat on superior unarmed strike.

Fist of the Forest does not stack with it or with monk unarmed damage progression. FoF just starts at 1d8 and ends up at 2d8 (which then increases with size bonuses and spells and Improved Natural Attack as normal). That Prestigious feat is what you should be spamming. Get one for FoF, Deepwarden and Kensai. Then you're fine for whatever else.

For your class levels, considering you only get basically 11 on each side, I would say Totemist 2/Fighter 8//Ardent 10. Ardent, as stated before, lets you use powers based on ML (and there are lots of ways of increasing ML without taking levels in psionic classes) since your mantles go all the way from 1st to 9th powers and you 'know' all of them. You can use the Custom Mantle rules to cherrypick powers from any list, and even switch them around as you level up. Dominant Ideal ACF, at level 10, lets you break the action economy in half and execute epic teleporting doomstunts.

Better, psionic teleportation is not based on dimension door. THUS, you can teleport into and through combat using Dimension Slide and other powers.

Totemist 2 is if your GM allows your alabaster skeleton to grant you chakra slots. If it does, then you can use Girallon Claws to grant you 4 claw attacks and stacking grapple bonus based on your HD not class level (max essentia is based on character level) which with your huge strength should help you out tons.

Extended Reach is a must asap (i.e. as soon as you have the prestigious feats - i'd retrain your earlier feats if you can), and for your fighter feats, spend them on a melee combo (I suggest lockdown tripper, using your full attack to smack people, your AoOs to trip, and swift action teleportation to get around).

Getting access to an item of alter self, or a custom feat, in order to impersonate non-ooze things (like a humanoid, wrapped around your skeleton) would make you an awesome assassin (be the floor) given your brutal full attack and teleportation from Ardent.

My copy of CC says under FoF's unarmed strike: "If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table." I took this to mean that it progresses two levels, although an argument could be made for the next die increase instead.

You're right about Superior though, for another reason - i already cap out early without it, so there's no reason to take it. So moving Prestigious(Deepwarden) to 9HD and gaining Prestigious(Kensai) at 12HD.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding here, however: We are not a gestalt campagin. I have two feats that grant me half-level gestalt abilities for fighter and monk. With four racial hit dice (I'm going to end up buying off the entire LA by 20th) that leaves 16 single-class levels to fill.

I really like what you have for Ardent there, though - the teleporting gargantuan cube of doom is pretty fun. I shall become BOB, Eater of Worlds!

Where are you finding the Custom Mantle rules at, however? Or, for that matter, the alternate class feature for level 10? I'm new to psionics, and haven't made it through the entire book yet.

So in that vein, what about Totemist2 (for the totem chakra bind, if nothing else)/Ardent14 - or, if I can convince the DM about more chakra levels, totem6/ardent10.

[Rejakor]

They're in the web supplement for the complete psionic.

If you get 16 total levels, hm.

That changes things a lot.

But also kind of makes them more boring.



Totem Chakra isn't a real chakra. It can't shape soulmelds. It can only Bind them. You need the other chakras to shape the soulmelds you bind to the totem chakra. Otherwise you're stuck with just the soul chakra soulmelds, and I don't think those are super good for the totemist, from memory.


Also on FoF my memory is hazy, but I think because it specifically changes your unarmed strike value (instead of saying that it adds X levels of monk) if you take things that advance monk unarmed damage it doesn't advance normally.

It's kind of a moot point regardless, as base damage die is something that doesn't really matter that much - you want it to be a d8 or a d10 so it scales on the d8 table (not the d6 one) as you stack size increases, but otherwise you don't really care much about it.

Person_Man has a good melee combo guide you should probably check out. Again, spells or powers are the hands-down best way to be a melee guy - sad but true. The great thing is you can cherrypick prestige class abilities (and base class abilities?) with your feats, using that 'Prestigious' feat crap, so y'know, melee combos are a lot easier for you to pick up than normal.

[dungeonnerd]

You need the other chakras to shape the soulmelds you bind to the totem chakra. Otherwise you're stuck with just the soul chakra soulmelds, and I don't think those are super good for the totemist, from memory.


Crap, I'd forgotten about the actual shaping of the melds.
And even without FoF's unarmed bonuses, I'll hit the maximum 12d8 though so it's not a huge deal - i'll still hit it at the same level too.

Well, back to poking around books lol.

Though, out of curiosity, why would 16 levels be more "boring" than 10?

[Dr Bwaa]

Am I missing something, or have you for some reason taken combat reflexes with only 9 dex? Also, this thread is completely hilarious, and you should definitely pick up Leadership and buy your cohort an Amulet of Ooze Riding (AEG).

[dungeonnerd]

Am I missing something, or have you for some reason taken combat reflexes with only 9 dex? Also, this thread is completely hilarious, and you should definitely pick up Leadership and buy your cohort an Amulet of Ooze Riding (AEG).

Combat Reflexes is just a thought. I'd get it at 20th level, and by that time I can have items/etc to boost my DEX so I can use it - basically, with gargantuan/collosal size/reach, it massively opens up possibilites for AoO. If you have a better suggestion for that EFL10 slot, please give me one.

And the Amulet of Ooze Riding is on my "christmas list" to give to my wizard/cleric buddy - he's already scared of me, and we've already established that i can manipulate things in my jelly, so if he pisses me off (as his character is wont to do, actually) I can just remove the amulet and he's gone from internal buff machine and LoS murderer to lunch.

I totally agree with the hilarity - one of the reasons that I've wanted to play an G.Cube for years is that the entire idea is ludicrous and fun as hell.

My original idea was to make him a Lord of the Ooze, but for the life of me I couldn't find any "summon: ooze" type spells, so instead i've gone into combat control and sheer damage output.

[Rejakor]

Crap, I'd forgotten about the actual shaping of the melds.
And even without FoF's unarmed bonuses, I'll hit the maximum 12d8 though so it's not a huge deal - i'll still hit it at the same level too.

Well, back to poking around books lol.

Though, out of curiosity, why would 16 levels be more "boring" than 10?

Because instead of trying to work with limited resources to get the stuff you're looking for, with 16 levels and the skillpoints to enter various prestiges and put heavy levels into them etc, it's a lot easier.

And regular is less crazy than gestalt.



That said don't plan around level 20. Ever. Don't even plan around level 15. Plan around level 5, level 8, and level 11. Most games will never even hit 12. And if your build comes online at level 14, you've just spent 14 levels sucking as a regular gelatinous cube who doesn't even teleport.

Go for specific things as early as possible, and damn the torpedoes. Custom DM bonuses and retraining will fix any long term problems. Aim for the things you want your character to be able to do as soon as possible and screw everything else. Quick and dirty dimension slide is better than waiting for level 14 for swift action all day teleportation because you have more game sessions spent actually teleporting.


Also, Teflammar Shadowlord.

That is all.

[dungeonnerd]

That said don't plan around level 20. Ever. Don't even plan around level 15. Plan around level 5, level 8, and level 11. Most games will never even hit 12. And if your build comes online at level 14, you've just spent 14 levels sucking as a regular gelatinous cube who doesn't even teleport.

Also, Teflammar Shadowlord.

That is all.

Oh, no, i want to teleport as soon as possible - i was just noting that with current build my unarmed damage caps at the same level regardless of how FotF works.

Do you think dropping the 5' extra reach for Telflammar Shadowlord would be a good tradeoff?

Also, Ardent1 with the freedom mantle gets Dimension Hop, which is a swift action teleport. Granted, it's 10ft +5' per PP but it's enough to put me into battle (or escape therefrom). Can I not simply do a build starting with ardent? Say, ardent1/psywar7/ as a beginning - dimension hop, expansion, then dimensional slide?

Or, if i dont replace the 5' reach with TS then ardent1/rogue3/TS6/ardent5?

[Rejakor]

The thing is, you can have everything psywar gives you, other than maybe bonus feats, from Ardent thanks to the Custom Mantle ACF.

Psywar gives crap-all for pp and powers known, basically.

The reason to not just go Ardent 1/Erudite 9 or something is the Dominant Ideal ACF. It lets you basically break the action economy in half, which can be fun.


Teflammar Shadowlord is definitely worth 5' reach. As it is a full attack whenever you teleport.

Considering how good feats are for you, perhaps should look at the feats handbook to find out how to get more feats (or to turn fighter feats into other kinds of feats).

[dungeonnerd]

So, as strange as it may sound, would Ardent16 with those two ACFs simply be the best way to go?

Also, I have yet to find a search function here, can you point me to the right direction to locating the feat book you are referring to please?

[Rejakor]

An Alternate Class Feature is not a feat. Here you go. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)

Maybe? You could go Ardent 10/Whatever The Hell You Want, though, really. Illithid Slayer would get you more BAB and HD and still advance your ardent casting.

No real reason to stay in Ardent after level 10, though.

EDIT: Oh you meant the feat handbook I mentioned. I use google.

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206315)

Or particular note is the Feat Leech power.

[dungeonnerd]

An Alternate Class Feature is not a feat. Here you go. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a)


I mean where you said
Considering how good feats are for you, perhaps should look at the feats handbook to find out how to get more feats (or to turn fighter feats into other kinds of feats). I'd already found that wizards site about ACFs, but thank you for providing it anyway.

And great point about no need to stay past 10, actually, since ardent is only limited in manifesting by if they have the PP to do so... At least that's how the description reads, but it also says that a 5th level ardent can only learn abilities that cost 5 pp or less, even though the chart says they have 25PP base at that level. That's mildly confusing.

[Rejakor]

Basically, it says that the powers from the mantles that you know that you can use are limited by your ML, not by your total PP. So a 5th level ardent with +4 ML from something could learn or use powers that cost 9 pp, i.e. 5th level powers.

This is the basis for the triple nines trick.

[dungeonnerd]

So then Ardent follows the Wizard progression for when levels are available - 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. That makes more sense, actually, than what they had written.

By the way, thanks for being so patient with me. You're extremely helpful!

[Rejakor]

In psionics you can only spend as many power points on a single power as you have ML, or Manifester Level. This stops you putting 400 power points on a single power, which is the complaint most commonly brought to the internet about psionics being overpowered (i.e. people doin' it wrong). 1st level powers cost 1 power point (although some are augmentable for more). 2nd level powers cost 3 power points. 3rd level powers cost 5 power points. And so on.

The thing about the ardent, is, it says in the 'powers known' entry that as long as you can cast the power, you can select it from your mantle.

So if you have a high manifester level from another class, and then you take a level in ardent, you can immediately pick an appropriate power from your chosen mantle.

However if you have effects that increase your manifester level in some way, that is relatively permanent, you can pick powers known from your mantles that are way above your level. This is mostly used by people to 'catch up' when they've spent a bunch of levels on something other than psionics and want to have level appropriate powers. Like if you have a bunch of racial Gelatinous Cube HD or something. etc etc.

That is why Ardent is better than Psion or Erudite. That and the Dominant Ideal ACF, which is just plain sex.

EDIT: Better for this sort of thing. Personally I like the sheer horsepower of psion or erudite in terms of PP, but then, i'm a dirty believer in pp recharge too.

[dungeonnerd]

So, things like Orange Ioun Stones then?

Actually, Life Mantle (+1ML on a power with expense of focus) plus the ACF Dominant Ideal (dont have to expend focus to activate power) would just make it a permanent +1ML right? Might not help with choosing powers, but could help with augmenting. granted, only works with powers on that mantle, but still.

Also, as I understand it, if the base PP to manifest a power is 3, but it has an augment PP of say, 5 then as long as you have ML to manifest, you can spend the PP to augment regardless? Or do you have to be able to manifest powers with 8PP cost to both manifest and augment?

[Rejakor]

The total pp cost of the power you are trying to manifest must be equal or less than your manifester level.

So base cost + augments = or < ML.

Something that helps with increasing ML, depending on your DMs reading of it, is the Magic Mantle's granted ability.

[dungeonnerd]

The total pp cost of the power you are trying to manifest must be equal or less than your manifester level.

So base cost + augments = or < ML.

Something that helps with increasing ML, depending on your DMs reading of it, is the Magic Mantle's granted ability.

So, keeping that in mind, do you think i should retrain away my Gestalt(fighter) - losing minor bonuses to attacks and damages and a couple trip feats - for practiced manifester, which will mean that at ardent1 i'm considered a 5th level manifester? (4 racial HD!)

[Rejakor]

If Fighter is giving you bonus feats, might be worth keeping it.


Also keep in mind that by RAW Practiced Caster does not apply to ML. You'd need some minor homebrew, or to take the Magic Mantle (which is pretty vaguely worded - still a DM call as to what it actually does - but it theoretically could make CL = ML for the purposes of abilities and powers = spells), to make it apply to ML.

That said, it's not unreasonable homebrew - it's not like those racial HD are doing much for you otherwise.

[dungeonnerd]

Also keep in mind that by RAW Practiced Caster does not apply to ML.

true. But Practiced Manifester, in Complete Psionic, does. It's effectively the same thing, just for Psionic classes.

And really, you're right about the fact that the fighter feats might serve me better. It's somethign to think about, at least.

At the moment, I'm going to just run Ardent 10, and worry about what to do past that if and when I get to that point. I think I'm going to take Freedom and Magic as my primary mantles, and then use the ACF to tweak their powers a bit.

I want to thank you for all your help, Playground, and Rejakor in specific. It's been an interesting learning experience.

And by all means, if you guys have something to say on the subject, toss it in here! Nothing better than funny oozes!

[Snowbluff]

true. But Practiced Manifester, in Complete Psionic, does. It's effectively the same thing, just for Psionic classes.


Except like twice as powerful. Imagine if Practiced Spellcaster let you use a higher metamagic adjustment. :smallbiggrin:

[Rejakor]

Actually, powers and spells don't really work the same way in that sense. If you want a power to do your ML in d6s, you need to pay for it - spells just automatically scale (to a certain extent).

Theoretically yes you can use those points instead on a metapower feat, but metapowers are, apart from some linked power and burrowing power shenanigans, much less useful than metamagic. Much, much less powerful, and you typically have to choose between augmenting or metapowering and it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.


Also, I keep forgetting Practiced Manifester exists.


Anyway, glad to hear that we helped. A teleporting shapeshifting assassin doomcube is probably going to be more fun to play than a fightercube/monkcube, and will probably be more funny/fun for your party and DM as well.

Don't forget to teleport on top of people and fall on them!

And don't forget to take Teflammar Shadowlord and Battle Jump so you get to full attack twice while doing so!

[Artillery]

Is it strange that when you say teleporting Assassin cube I imagine him teleporting 20 feet into the air? Then doing 75d6 of damage to some unfortunate soul below him.

15000lb gelatinous cube and teleporting. Seems like a good case for fall damage rules.

Edit: I thought fall damage was was weight of object dmg + height it fell from dmg? SRD caps damage from how high it falls but not its weight. That is just due to where it is placed in the sentence.


For each 200 pounds of an object's weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

[Rejakor]

Falling damage caps at 20d6 by RAW, unless you are being thrown by a hulking hurler.

The main point of doing that would be to have 10' reach, teleport in 10' above, get a shadowpounce full attack, then fall on them, trigger battle jump, and get a charge attack (which with regular pounce = full attack) at double damage. And then falling damage.

So, in the vernacular, 'wreck their ****'.