Is this a good build? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Flasaro

2012-11-12, 05:45 AM

Cranthis

2012-11-12, 05:50 AM

Hmmm. Debatable. The fighter level could be replaced for more spells from Duskblade, but the bonus feat is really nice.

Andreaz

2012-11-12, 05:55 AM

Such a build already lost access to 9th level spells, which is a major downside.

TuggyNE

2012-11-12, 06:05 AM

The Duskblade levels don't go well with Wizard, which is a pretty significant problem. (Two casting classes at half the level in no way add up to one casting class at full level.)

Try to rework it so as many levels as possible advance Wizard casting, and ideally also BAB.

Hirax

2012-11-12, 06:06 AM

Flasaro

2012-11-12, 08:35 AM

the level of fighter and two in wizard are already locked in as im playing this character. the only reason duskblade came to mind even though i lose out on 9th lv spells is i can channel all the way up to 7th into an attack with it's ability into a weapon attack.

Gwendol

2012-11-12, 08:45 AM

You can use Spellsword instead of duskblade. Then you don't have to manage separate lists of spells, and can still channel spells.

Andreaz

2012-11-12, 09:14 AM

You can use Spellsword instead of duskblade. Then you don't have to manage separate lists of spells, and can still channel spells.You still lose caster levels past the first, though. It's probably better to reach for a build that does not channel spells at this point.
Knight Phantom is a good one.
You really REALLY should try replacing that Fighter 1 with Warblade 1 or Crusader 1 (i prefer crusader), and go Jade Phoenix Mage instead. This way the maneuvers you throw around beef your damage spells.
Ample use of Quicken Spell metamagic is handy too.

Gwendol

2012-11-12, 09:27 AM

You still lose caster levels past the first, though. It's probably better to reach for a build that does not channel spells at this point.
Knight Phantom is a good one.
You really REALLY should try replacing that Fighter 1 with Warblade 1 or Crusader 1 (i prefer crusader), and go Jade Phoenix Mage instead. This way the maneuvers you throw around beef your damage spells.
Ample use of Quicken Spell metamagic is handy too.

The OP says the fighter and wizard levels are already set. At what point is it not useful to channel spells?

Flickerdart

2012-11-12, 09:33 AM

The 3rd level channel isn't terribly useful unless you get it at 3rd, because as soon as iteratives roll around you become the saddest panda. Take three more Wizard levels and enter Swiftblade, and if you really want to swing around sword-spells, take a look at this list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13914236&postcount=9).

2xMachina

2012-11-12, 09:39 AM

Best Gish prc for Wizard is probably Swiftblade.

Non prc gishes... are no match for Prc gishes for a wizard.

Andreaz

2012-11-12, 09:48 AM

The OP says the fighter and wizard levels are already set. At what point is it not useful to channel spells?Channeling spells is an incredibly minor power for a gish, since all it does is add damage and the rare touch range debuff. Rare, but not major.
He already lost one caster level. Going into duskblade removes the 17th.
Going into spellblade enough to get channeling will remove at least the 18th.
It's easier to go into something else and rely on quickened spells, previously set buffs and content yourself with not doing 2d6+str*1.5 when you Ghoul Touch the enemy.

dextercorvia

2012-11-12, 10:06 AM

I like Swiftblade, but unless he has already been building to it, he likely is way behind in prereqs.

Try

Fighter1/Wizard2/HumanParagon3/Spellsword1/AbjurantChampion5/EldritchKnight8*

*Eldritch Knight can be replaced by Sacred Exorcist for 1 higher casting level, and two less BAB (you will get 9th level spells and the fourth iterative either way).

If you just took your 3rd level feat please consider trading it out for Knowledge Devotion or Power Attack. Those feats you have chosen are really subpar. In the case of Somatic Weaponry, that is only useful if you are TWF or Sword and Board. Both of which are bad ideas if you are trying to get more damage out of an attack (which I'm guessing you are since you wanted channeling). A better way to pump weapon damage on a gish is to stack To-Hit bonuses, and then Power Attack. Also, Knowledge devotion is an auto +1/+1, but is fairly simple to build up to a +5/+5 as you level. Later on take Arcane Strike.

Gwendol

2012-11-12, 10:07 AM

Spellswords channel spells like an ordained champion, not like a duskblade. Thus, any spell the spellsword knows can be channeled. I know losing caster levels is unoptimal, but in this case for the OP the spellsword PrC is likely a better choice than duskblade. Doing away with channeling and going swiftblade instead is another route, but perhaps not what the OP was looking for.

ZaSeroulIs

2012-11-12, 10:18 AM

What about Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10 ?
or is it more to the Magic Knight and not the Mage Knight you are looking for? :smallfrown:
Has no ASF on medium armor, up to 5th lvl spells, 20th lvl caster (Full BAB).

dextercorvia

2012-11-12, 11:09 AM

What about Duskblade 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 10 ?
or is it more to the Magic Knight and not the Mage Knight you are looking for? :smallfrown:
Has no ACF on medium armor, up to 5th lvl spells, 20th lvl caster (Full BAB).

What is Eldritch Knight doing for you except costing you HP, skills, and a casting level?

Also, his build is already started.

ZaSeroulIs

2012-11-12, 11:34 AM

dextercorvia

2012-11-12, 11:40 AM

Woops didn't notice that he is 3d lvl already :(.

Also isn't one of the problems that he cannot cast wizard spell in light armor as a Wizard without ASF? (even if he took Duskblade?)

Also: yea I guess you are right about Eldritch Knight. (However even you suggested it.)

There are armors without ASF, if that is what he wants.

I added Eldritch Knight to a Fighter/Wizard base. You added it to Duskblade. Duskblade already has full BAB, casting at every level, and more hp per die than EK.

ZaSeroulIs

2012-11-12, 11:44 AM

oh I see thanks for explaining :) still not used at not building strange/useless things :\

Keld Denar

2012-11-12, 12:40 PM

I'd do one of two things. Take one more fighter level, 2 more wizard levels, then transition into the standard Spellsword1/AbjChamp5 combo. Otherwise, 4 more levels of wizard will also get there. Just take Combat Casting at any point in the next 4-5 levels for AbjChamp prereqs.

From there, you have a few options. EK, Knight Phantom, Ruathar, Sacred Exorcist, Swiftblade, etc.

I wouldn't try for Duskblade channeling. If you are attacking, you should probably be full attacking which you can't do with Duskblade 3. If you are casting, it's probably not something that can be channeled. In the small chance that it is, out still is not worth the loss of 3 caster levels to obtain. It kinda looks good on paper, but trust me when I say that it isn't.

At this level, the shield is an ok option. A bit higher, however, and he should bee able to easily afford an animated shield, or better yet, AbjChamp's awesome Abjurant Armor feature with the Swift Abjuration feature. Once you do, switch to a 2 handed weapon. You won't need somatic weaponry any more, since you can easily take one hand off the sword, cast, and put the hand back on the weapon freely.

Gwendol

2012-11-12, 01:15 PM

Yup, you listen to Keld: he explained it better than I ever could.

docnessuno

2012-11-12, 01:20 PM

Hey guys.

So here it is

1: Fighter
2: Wizard
3: Wizard
4: Duskblade
5: Duskblade
6: Duskblade
7-12: Abjurant Champion- boosting wizard
13+: either all wizard after this or Initiate of the sevenfold veil maybe?
Idk you guys tell me what i could do better, I just like the idea of a defensive mage knight

He's human and only lv 3 right now and already have as follows:
iron will, shield specialization (heavy), improved toughness, somatic weaponry

No, it's almost horrible (sorry).
Dipping duskblade for channeling is not worth the caster level loss, also the feat choice is imho very poor (iron will, shield specialization and somatic weaponry). Since gishes can trivially hit touch AC (Wraitstrike) you WANT power attack, and you want to use a twohanded weapon (unless you are a sneak attack gish, but that's another story). Using a 2HW means you don't need somatic weaponry anymore (releasing the grip of one hand from a weapon and grabbing it are both free actions). Finally Iron will is widely regarded as a "poor" feat, and usually taken only for PRC qualification.

"Standard" entry into Abjurant champion:

1: Fighter (Power attack, Combat casting, Open feat)
2: Wizard (Trade scribe scroll for Improved toughness)
3: Wizard (Open feat)
4: Wizard
5: Wizard
6: Spellsword (Arcane strike)
7: Abjurant champion
8: Abjurant champion
9: Abjurant champion (Open)

eggs

2012-11-12, 01:26 PM

This wouldn't have higher-level spells than a straightclassed Duskblade until level 11, which really cuts into its appeal.

Smiting Spell would probably be useful in place of the Duskblade levels. It's a metamagic feat from the same book which "transfers energy from your hand to a weapon that you hold," without removing the standard touch spell specification "you can touch the opponent on the same round you touch the spell" (rules compendium).

This means you can put it on something as simple as a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight to use your standard action to cast a spell and make a weapon attack with that spell in the same round - the same thing that you'd get from Duskblade 3, but better because it can be used along with Quickens, Spell Matrices or Arcane Spellsurge.

Saidoro

2012-11-12, 01:48 PM

Such a build already lost access to 9th level spells, which is a major downside.
I object to this argument in general, most games don't get to 20 and losing 4 caster levels, while bad, is not anywhere near as massively worse than losing 3 as people make it out to be.

Best Gish prc for Wizard is probably Swiftblade.
Non prc gishes... are no match for Prc gishes for a wizard.
Abjurant Champion is definitely the best Wizard Gish PRC. Swiftblade loses to many caster levels to hold that title. It is notable for being on of the only PRCs with good enough class features to make losing 3 or 4 caster levels often worth it though.

Speaking of: you probably can't get into swiftblade anytime soon unless you're luck enough to have already filled the feat prereqs by chance, I'd just take more wizard levels(or whichever full advancing PRCs you qualify for) and aim for Abjurant Champion(with maybe a warblade dip at 9).

eggs

2012-11-12, 01:53 PM

"Standard" entry into Abjurant champion:
Also illegal, given BA requirements. F2/W4/SS1/AC5 is more common, on account of legality.

Weirdly enough, I think Battle Sorcerer 6 is the only build that qualifies for Arcane Strike by level 6 without spell-level chicanery.

Arcanist

2012-11-12, 02:36 PM

Consider martial wizard6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard)/swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)9/abjurant champion5 instead. BAB of 17, 9th level spells, and great class features.

I still question anyones sanity if they can honestly prepare nothing but Haste spells for an entire day. Free cake for everyone if you actually do that once :smallbiggrin:

Hey guys.

So here it is

1: Fighter
2: Wizard
3: Wizard
4: Duskblade
5: Duskblade
6: Duskblade
7-12: Abjurant Champion- boosting wizard
13+: either all wizard after this or Initiate of the sevenfold veil maybe?
Idk you guys tell me what i could do better, I just like the idea of a defensive mage knight

He's human and only lv 3 right now and already have as follows:
iron will, shield specialization (heavy), improved toughness, somatic weaponry

I like it. It's not an EXTREMELY good build but it is tolerable pending the level of power for your game... Are you Hi-OP? or Low-OP? If it is Low-OP then this is pretty cool. :smallsmile:

Low-OP! When RP'ing really does matter! :smallbiggrin:

dextercorvia

2012-11-12, 02:44 PM

Low-OP! When RP'ing really does matter! :smallbiggrin:

Come on. No need to bring Stormwind into this.

Arcanist

2012-11-12, 03:00 PM

Come on. No need to bring Stormwind into this.

Good point.

Low-OP! When being a 17th level Wizard doesn't mean you can destroy the world and remake it all over again, just because.

Urpriest

2012-11-12, 03:04 PM

Iron Will is typically used to qualify for things, and your build already has Wizard in it so it's not like you were worried about your will save. What did you intend to use Iron Will to qualify for?

Flickerdart

2012-11-12, 03:12 PM

I still question anyones sanity if they can honestly prepare nothing but Haste spells for an entire day. Free cake for everyone if you actually do that once :smallbiggrin:
You don't need to prepare nothing but haste. You just need to not cast anything else.

Arcanist

2012-11-12, 03:19 PM

You don't need to prepare nothing but haste. You just need to not cast anything else.

I see, but I still find it hard to believe that for an entire level as a Wizard or a Sorcerer you casted nothing but haste. Haste for Breakfast. Haste for Lunch. Haste for Dinner. I know it's possible. Just really hard to believe :smalltongue:

docnessuno

2012-11-12, 03:23 PM

Also illegal, given BA requirements. F2/W4/SS1/AC5 is more common, on account of legality.

Weirdly enough, I think Battle Sorcerer 6 is the only build that qualifies for Arcane Strike by level 6 without spell-level chicanery.

My bad, a fighter level slipped.

Flickerdart

2012-11-12, 03:50 PM

I see, but I still find it hard to believe that for an entire level as a Wizard or a Sorcerer you casted nothing but haste. Haste for Breakfast. Haste for Lunch. Haste for Dinner. I know it's possible. Just really hard to believe :smalltongue:
That's what reserve feats, wands, and scrolls are for. If your CL is high enough, you can grab Spell-Linked Familiar, and if you can get your hands on SLAs (through spell-stitching, for instance) you can use those.

Kazyan

2012-11-12, 04:19 PM

I see, but I still find it hard to believe that for an entire level as a Wizard or a Sorcerer you casted nothing but haste. Haste for Breakfast. Haste for Lunch. Haste for Dinner. I know it's possible. Just really hard to believe :smalltongue:

Is it much of a problem to only use your 2nd-level spells in combat at level 6? (I haven't had much caster experience.) You could just blow all of your hastes at the end of the day, speeding around all silly-like and shouting YOLO at anyone who asks what you're doing.

TuggyNE

2012-11-12, 04:33 PM

I object to this argument in general, most games don't get to 20 and losing 4 caster levels, while bad, is not anywhere near as massively worse than losing 3 as people make it out to be.

It's true that the drop-off between 9ths and almost-9ths is not as steep as might be stated at times; however, it's a decent rule of thumb to avoid dropping too far behind the spell level access curve at any point.

Kelb_Panthera

2012-11-12, 11:16 PM

I see, but I still find it hard to believe that for an entire level as a Wizard or a Sorcerer you casted nothing but haste. Haste for Breakfast. Haste for Lunch. Haste for Dinner. I know it's possible. Just really hard to believe :smalltongue:

It's a good thing that's not the requirement then, huh?

You must only cast haste from your 3rd level slots for the entire level. That's really not that hard to do, since 2nd level spells are still rocking pretty hard at that point.