High-level Summoner - viable or not? [3.P]

[SilverLeaf167]

How effective is the Summoner at high levels? Should the Eidolon really be considered the main point of the class at this point, as it kind of falls behind in damage and doesn't have magic, or are the Summoner's other spells more important?

If one were to play a Summoner at, say, 20th level in a medium-OP team, what sort of build would the best most effective, if viable in the first place?

[Wagadodo]

I have yet to play a High Level Summoner. But I think they would be very viable at higher level. If nothing else on action economy alone. You can always give your Eilodon amulet of mighty fist to make all its natural attacks magical. Or you can just go greater magic fang to make all the attacks of the Eilodon magical.

You are going to have a very high AC tank. That will probably have a high damage output. Then you can either buff the Eilodon, or your party with your spells.

I am playing a Synthesist summoner myself in Low level campaign and almost outshining the party because of my abilities. This is even without the action economy.

[Karoht]

How effective is the Summoner at high levels? Should the Eidolon really be considered the main point of the class at this point, as it kind of falls behind in damage and doesn't have magic, or are the Summoner's other spells more important?

If one were to play a Summoner at, say, 20th level in a medium-OP team, what sort of build would the best most effective, if viable in the first place?
I'm in a 12+ campaign right now with a Summoner.
He has focused pretty much everything around his Eidolon. His Eidolon is a blender of death under the right circumstances, but at higher level, one finds those circumstances to be less and less frequent.
I would say the Eidolon starts to fall off in usefulness around level 12 or so. However...
The better summons come online for you around that time. With useful SLA's to augment your own casting.
You can have your Eidolon out and summons, but in a very specific way.
Either use the SLA to have your Eidolon out and spellcast to get summons, or vice versa.
Also, I've been told that the feat Augment Summoned only works if you summon your Eidolon via spellcast and NOT your SLA, but that also does come down to DM interpretation.
Pretty much every combat, you want your Eidolon out and active along with some additional Summon Monster stuff out for support. With the support, the Eidolon remains very useful. Anything the Eidolon can kill, it kills faster with the help. Anything it can't kill, it can help kill it with the help.

Taken from Summoner Guide Link below:

Summons vs Eidolon
One of the major changes made to the Summoner from Beta to final version was a change to its Summon ability. The Summon Monster I-IX SLA can now only be used while the Eidolon is not summoned. Although a definite nerf, this isn't as bad as you might think: it just means you'll be spending your first round on buff spells instead of on summons. You only have so many actions, after all.

Effectively what this does is give you a choice between going around with your Eidolon active, or not. If you keep your Eidolon around you get to use it instantly in the first round of a combat, but you can't use your summon monster. If you keep your Eidolon dismissed, however, you can open a combat by summoning a monster of your choice, and only pull out the Eidolon when you need it.

Summons have two main advantages over Eidolons - they're more varied and they're more expendable. You can pick the right Summon for the job, and unlike Eidolons you don't care if they get killed or have their levels or ability scores drained.

In practice, you'll mostly use this as a backup for your Eidolon - if your Eidolon gets killed or crippled for the day, just spam summoned monsters instead. Still, summons are powerful, and leaving your Eidolon in the ether and relying on summoned monsters instead is a viable tactic. Since you can only keep one set active at a time, don't bother keeping them alive - throw them into combat and let them soak up the enemy attacks.


Summon Monster Tips and Tricks
•Using your Summon Monster SLA is a standard action that immediately ends any previous use of the SLA. You can use this to squeeze out two full attacks in a single round. Have a previously-summoned monster attack, then take your turn, summon another monster (dismissing the old one) and have that attack too.
•While summoning another monster with your SLA dismisses an old one, that doesn't apply to summoning another monster with your spells. If you keep one or two Summon Monsters in your spell list, you can have multiple summons out at once.
•You can have your Summon Monster SLA and your Eidolon out at the same time. Just use the Summon ability, then take 1 minute to call your Eidolon. (The rules say you can't use your Summon ability while your Eidolon is active, but there's nothing stopping you summoning your Eidolon while a Summon is active.) Since your Summon lasts 1 minute/level, this is a great way to double your hitting power if you have some prep time.
•You can even get a summon and your Eidolon out within two rounds! First use your Summon ability, then cast the Summon Eidolon spell. As a nifty bonus, this lets your Eidolon gain +4 to Strength and Constitution if you have the Augment Summoning feat.

So with a bit of action economy, you can in fact have the Eidolon out and a Summon. It's tricky but it works.
And I speak from experience when I say that an Eidolon backed up with some Shadow Demons kicks one heck of a lot of butt.

PF Summoner's Guidebook
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592
Quick List of Summons and their respective Spell Like Abilities
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hXTPH3JxSDD6n0a0dS8eywpQ3we09d_ToBWaL1yphBk/edit?pli=1

[eggs]

Have you seen that spell list? They're fine. More than fine, because you're probably going to need to crack down on Planar Binding to keep them from breaking things.

[Slipperychicken]

They've got 6th level spells, and some 9th level spells disguised as 6th level ones.

They're Buffs, CC, Utility, and they come with their own reusable beatstick (don't have to pay much for equipment, and it revives itself for free). So I'd say that's pretty viable.

[Karoht]

Yeah, good old Planar Binding.
Consult a guide to get a good understanding of how it works before you use it. We had a newer player pick it up, took over an hour to work it all out and help pick something to summon.


If you plan on summoning something, it is a wonderful idea to have those summons and their stats (including adjustment from Augment Summon) written down/printed off for quick reference. I recommend 3x5 cards.