How to optimize/modify my rogue?

[Shin]

Hey there fellow players!

Me and some friends started a 3.5 group. Our DM basically allows the SRD books, means, PHB I+II, most of the "Complete XXX" books, Dungeonscape, and such.
But: He allows some reasonable feats / options from other books. What he doesn't allow at all is ToB!
Skill point gaining: 8 +INTx2 +WIS +CHA modifiers

Now I, on the one hand, want to optimize my rogue(-like) character and make him stronger and more versatile in a reasonable amount - because DM will restrict the wizards and druids anyone, according to his opinion on leaving the game quite simple and concentrating on rp rather than stats and numbers.

On the other hand, I want to modify my (catfolk) rogue so it fits better into what I want my character to be - which we are allowed.


I think that the rogue is a rather good choice for me because the class works in ways I kind of appreciate. The first thing I want to change is:
I want him to only wear slight clothing, no armor at all, and get some kind of AC bonus in exchange. How should I best do that? Give her some ac bonus like the invisible blade's unfettered defense? monk's ac bonus?

Then, our group often spreads their search for the persons or things the quest means them to look for. Means, I go out on my own at night quite often, as it was last time, when I did look for one of our five bounties. Plus, I don't like my rogue stupidly standing behind the enemy, backstabbing him with sneak attack like a sneak attack robot.
Is there a way to deny the enemy's dex to ac even in 1on1 combat situations, and not just do that for the first sneak attack stab? Maybe uncanny feint? or camouflage+HiPS hide between every single sting?

Just out of curiousity: Why is the factotum considered a better skillmonkey than rogue, who gets 8+INT skill points per level? Does "skillmonkey" mean you're good at every skill? And if yes, I guess the factotum is special because of its every skill on lvl1 + cunning knowledge.

Should I main dexterity and intelligence and consider some of the factotum's feats without inspiration points, like brains over brawn?

[dextercorvia]

What level?

[Shin]

Currently lvl 3. (most of the others 4, catfolk LA+1, buyoff allowed later). Sorry.

[Dayzgone]

(why do ppl hate on ToB so much? no need to answer this)

To start, Factotums are considered much better skill monkeys, for exactly that reason. They are able to us most if not ALL skills as class skills, so there are no cross classing penalty's. Whats more is that they gain tips and tricks that are on par with a casters ability's (on par not better) and they scale much better into late game then a standard rouge or similar class does. (rouges usually fall off mid game when there ability to pick locks is tossed out the window in place of just phasing through the wall)

As far as your wants to being a usable stand up fighter as well as a skill monkey. I would say that the Rouge class mixed with the swashbuckler class from Complete Warrior should fill the role and flavor rather nicely.

Im sure there are better set ups, and if someone would be kind enough to link a rouge handbook or 2, then you be right on your way.:smallsmile:

[Snowbluff]

Staggering Strike!

[docnessuno]

The most accessible and reliable way to get sneak attack on every melee blow is flanking. Second best option is improved invisibility.


The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

To maximize the SA damage, most melee rogues opt to TWF.

[Telonius]

A Bag of Tricks can help out for a round or two. (Either the target uses an attack to splatter the animal, therefore not splattering you; or he splatters you but you're still flanking him). Plus, if you get lucky and pull out an animal that can grapple the target, the target is denied his dex against you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some links for you!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6893722&postcount=35

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some basic advice for your rogue:

You will begin to find quite a few opponents who are immune to sneak attack, best be prepared for them when they show up.

There's two triggers for Sneak Attack: Opponent Denied Dex Bonus and Flanked.

Flanking is a tactical thing, you might not always get a flank going. So I like to focus on denying an opponent Dex bonus to AC. There's several ways to go about doing it.

First off, either Marbles (CAdv) or a Wand of Grease (750 gp) and a UMD check will force a balance check. Yes, odds are, they will make it. However, if they don't have 5 ranks in Balance, then they are denied Dex bonus to AC just because they had to make that check. Sneak attacks: Enabled.

Second off, if they can't see you, then you get sneak attacks. Suggest to your party arcane caster that Glitterdust is a wonderful area effect Save or Lose type spell. If they are blind, they can't see you. Sneak Attacks enabled.

By that same token, finding a way to go Invisible, or Hide in Plain Sight, can also activate.

If you are going ranged, then the Sneaky Shot trick from Master Thrower (CWar) is also a good way to deny opponent dex bonus to AC

A Ring of Blinking can also manage this, although it does net you a 20% miss chance in the process. Ask if a Ghost Touch weapon will negate this problem. Logically it should, but there are also a number of arguments against it.

If you have access to the book Magic of Incarnum, then there's a cute little prestige class called Umbral Disciple which can net your Hide in Plain Sight with a three level dip. It also nets some sneak attack dice progression, and 20% miss chance by Concealment (which also negates opponent's sneak attacks). The prerequisites are very easy to meet.

Speaking of being denied sneak attacks by virtue of concealment, you'll probably want the Mage Slayer line of feats. Notably, Pierce Magical Concealment.

As you start encountering opponents immune to precision damage like Sneak Attack, you'll want to start picking up things like Wands of Gravestrike, Vinestrike, and Golemstrike.

As far as armor, a Mithral Chain Shirt with Silent and Shadowed properties makes for a fabulous sneak suit. It's basically combining both Cloak and Boots of Elvinkind into your armor. Freeing those item slots for other toys.

There is no way, other than ToB, to get a stat to AC while wearing armor, than I am aware of. This is one of many reasons Swordsage is generally seen as superior to Monk.

[Snowbluff]

If you are going to Flank, max out Tumble. It helps a lot.

[Dayzgone]

Here are some links for you!



A Person_Man link is always a good thing :smalltongue:

[Gwendol]

For a catfolk rogue I'd suggest picking up TWF, and weapon finesse through the swashbuckler bonus feat. Then you want penetrating strike at rogue 3, see dungeonscape. That way you deal half SA damage to those normally immune. Go daring outlaw at level six, mixing levels according to taste. You will want staggering strike asap. Grace will give a minor bonus to AC, and you get INT to damage.
With catfolk you get to pounce, which is what you will want to do when you can catch the enemy flatfooted or flanked.

[Shin]

Phew. Plenty of answers. Thanks. I'll try to work myself down the thread.

First, I decided to go melee. Second, my DM maybe allows some things like HiPS or other feats on my basic rogue, which I meant with "modify". We are allowed to change the classes a little bit according to what we want to have.

I want to focus on social action (charisma based skills mainly) in combination with being helpful in combat. We tend to find ourselves in outdoorsy/little villages and towns campaigns mostly, next to no dungeons, not much traps either, dex skills being of importance more often. DM has proven to encourage social interaction through many gather information tasks and so on, and explicitly told us he'd give us many social scenarios.

Isn't a rogue/swashbuckler very combat oriented and denying me much of the skill points gain?
Staggering strike is one of the feats I tend to take via char lvl gain, yes. I did use the rogue handbook 'till now, which is why I have some knowledge about rogue class at all. The other link is very promising, thanks!

I won't be allowed an animal to do the flanking for me, and the sorc's/wizard's bird familiars won't be of much help. I rather tend towards hiding/invisibility for 1on1 sneak attacking right now, but I'll try to get some insight into magical items. Didn't read much about them so far.

I don't know what to do against sneak attack immune enemies right now, should they ever appear. (our current campaign maybe will feature green/black dragon enemies) Shouldn't I just leave those to my sorc and the wizard buddy? a druid being with us, too.
In case of the invisibility: can I HiPS+camouflage hide between every two sneak attacks? Maybe I get HiPS without Umbral Disciple or other dips, just with modifying the basic rogue. Just have to ask the DM.
The DM basically allowed us that class altering because he'd rather want us to play modified pure base classes than multiclassing and prestige classing.

Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment allow me to break through concealment, right?
Speaking about the boni to AC: There is a way. I'm sure DM would allow me some INT modifiers to AC if I don't take any kind of armor, basically making my rogue a little bit more "monk-like". Whatever comes to my mind in terms of modifying my rogue, I can get on my DM's nerves with.

Thanks for that bunch of swift answers! I think I'll go read a little bit about magical items now.

Edit: My DM told me he'd allow me to, for example, penetrate strike undead and similar foes, but not constructs or oozes or anything else that un-human like. It can't be helped, he won't let me sneak attack green glibber monsters.

[Gwendol]

I think the minimum is three levels of swash for daring outlaw?

[Keld Denar]

Invisible Blade well give you a bit of unarmored defense. Not much, but a little. It will also give you the ability to feint as a free action, but I think it was clarified to be only once a round. Terrible prereqs though. Consider wearing Gnomish Twistcloth from RoS. It is a 0 AC armor with no max Dex and no ACP. It it's easier to enchant than a tshirt.

[Shin]

Quick answer before I fall asleep:
Don't get me wrong. It's not that I wouldn't want to have some AC, but our DM introduced a homerule feat "good-looking", which gives skill boni to the appearance-based charisma skills - and so I want my character to show some skin to explain that appearance advantage. Plus, I like the "monk-like" cloth fighter idea. That's why I need some AC boni instead of armor to not get torn to pieces by my enemies.

I'll take a look at Twistcloth tomorrow, thanks.

[Dayzgone]

Isn't a rogue/swashbuckler very combat oriented and denying me much of the skill points gain?


Well you did mention that you wanted to be able to handle your self in a solo fight which Swashbucklers are slightly better at, also the skill points would be just fine, since you would have a decently high Int score to get the full benefit from Insightful strike. Also builds like these tend to have at least 2-4 rouge lvls b 4 swashbuckler to snatch up evasion and uncanny dodge, so you will have alot more points then you know what to do with. And Daring Outlaw tends to be where this all leads to as Gwendol pointed out.

If your intending to be the "party face/skill monkey that can still deal damage" Then you may find that a Spell Thief or Bard may be more tailored to your needs, since there ability's are charisma based and they come with decent skill points. They also come with spell casting, which can (and will) be used as better versions of the rouges move set.

But if you really want to stay true to your rouge class, I would follow along with what the others are saying about your sneak atk setups.

[Shin]

I took a mix of the suggestions and modified the rogue base class a little bit now (which was the aim, as DM rather wants us to play pure base classes and allows us to modify them rather than do multiclassing/prestige classing).

Dayzgone, don't regard me as being crazy, but I want to stay true to my rogue because of the reason mentioned above and because I don't want to play a character who can perform magic :smalltongue:

My modified rogue would not have light armor proficiency and would lose his special abilities but in exchange get penetrating strike (instead of trap sense), weapon finesse, uncanny/unfettered defense, insightful strike, cunning insight, camouflage, HiPS, and high tumble and UMD scores.
I'd also take good-looking(lvl1 only feat), TWF, improved and great TWF, craven and staggering strike.

Sneak attacking I'd get through pouncing at the beginning of an encounter and with HiPS hide /flanking /tumble later on. Maybe I get my DM into allowing uncanny feint to apply on the full round I do it on, as an alternative to hiding. He just doesn't want me to get sneak attack for free in 1on1, so maybe that'd work.

Your opinions on that?

Btw: Umbral Disciple sounds quite nice. But if I had camouflage+HiPS, I'd not need concealment, I guess?

[Hyde]

You will eventually want the darkstalker feat. it is wonderful.

[Shin]

I could allow myself to do one single lvl dip out of rogue, maybe one lvl of fighter, get TWF as a fighter bonus feat, and get darkstalker with char lvl feat gain instead of TWF. How'd that be?

[Hyde]

Darkstalker isn't something you need right away, but fighter does have a lot of ancillary benefits, like weapon and armor proficiencies (you can eventually magic the drawbacks of even full plate away :).

Make both and see which you like better, I guess? (fighter will marginally boost your BaB, which is nice for qualifying for further TWF feats.)

[willpell]

For a minimally invasive fix, talk to the DM about the "Other alternate classes" page in Unearthed Arcana, which allows you to swap class features between classes, creating the Feat Rogue and the Wildshape Ranger and so forth. One option lets you gain a Monk's bonus to AC in place of something else; making that something else "rogue sneak attack" or some of the rogue's skill points or something, while not covered in the book, is not a terribly distant leap of logic.

[Rejakor]

Suggestions - Carmendine Monk makes a decent unarmoured rogue. Well, semi-decent.

1 on 1 sneak attacking is hard.

Ask your DM to rewrite the Improved Feint feat, so that instead of making feinting a move action, it makes it a swift action (or free action 1/rnd) and then take the feat that lets you apply a feint to all your attacks that round.

This is your spending 2 feats for being able to sneak attack if you succeed on a feint check. That's not.. overpowered by ANY stretch of the imagination. And lets you be a cool duelist.

Cunning use of the items or the improved trip feat and the tumble skill will help you get sneak attack most of the time - especially on rooftops.

Keep in mind smokesticks - poor man's smoke bomb and lets you hide, which turns it into a battle of stealth.



Factotum has access to awesome nonstandard skills like Iaijutsu Focus and Lucid Dreaming, which gives him some weird and cool talents that he can use. Also gains access to a few spells each day - stuff like Alter Self can really help out a rogue. Adding Int to everything forever is kind of nice too, as int gives you more skillpoints.


That said, I have soft spot for the rogue class, and the sneak attack mechanic.

[willpell]

(In other news, I wish "Complete XXX" was a real book; even with Wotco's notoriously spotty editing, I doubt it would be worse than the "Book of Erotic Fantasy".)

[Shin]

Nah, don't need full plate :) As said, my char is going to be some lightly dressed gypsy! (well, cut the "gypsy" part)
No armor is ok for me, but I'm not completely retarded. Without >any< other AC boni (like monk's or invisible blade's), I'd not last for long.

So the monk's AC bonus is a good option? As said, I considered that or invisible blade's unfettered defense (which is, I guess, nearly the same as factotum's uncanny defense, just without the inspiration points). Well, the sneak attack I want to keep. I just want to be able to use it to full extent without flanking. Am I able to still sneak attack without weapons, if I consider unarmed carmendine monk?

Invisible blade gets free action feinting already. I'll ask my DM if I am allowed to apply it to every attack (with or without that other feat you did mention. What is it called?)
I thought about smoke bombs first, but isn't camouflage+HiPS better in combat?

willpell, you mean the complete adventurer/scout/warrior/... books are crap?

In my last post, I made a build suggestion. Is it fine?

[Rejakor]

Monks with the Carmendine Monk feat (or the Kung Fu Genius feat), add Intelligence to their AC instead of Wisdom. This helps you a lot as a dex/int rogue, or as a factotum.

Surprising Riposte (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Surprising_Riposte). You Feint as a free or swift action, then you hit them (and they are flatfooted for that one attack thanks to feint). Then, Surprising Riposte triggers since you just dealt damage to them after feinting, and the rest of your full attack gets to take advantage of them being flatfooted.

Invisible Blade takes a long time to get that free action feint. You're what, level 3? You'd need to be level 9 I think to get it.

Being able to make someone flatfooted is not a level 9 ability. Level 9 is when wizards get Draconic Polymorph and Overland Flight. Being able to make someone flatfooted is more of a low level ability. And this is conditional flatfootedness - you have to defeat them in feinting, and THEN hit them.

Regardless, if you're going invisible blade, the pre-reqs are wrong - Master Thrower and Invisible Blade were a 10 level prestige class, and when they chopped them into 2 5-level classes, they got the pre-reqs mixed up. It should be Weapon Focus (Daggers), Weapon Finesse, and something else.


If you want more feats, there is a kind of rogue in unearthed arcana that trades away sneak attack for feats like a fighter. And there is a feat in Complete Adventurer that lets your Scout and Rogue levels stack for the purposes of Skirmish damage. So you could be a Scout 1/Rogue X, and have skirmish damage, and lots of feats. Skirmish isn't super useful for melee, though, without pouncing.




Something to keep in mind is that a Ninja (Complete Adventurer) gets to have Wisdom to AC in Light Armour (the monk feats should work to make that Intelligence to AC), and get to go invisible using their ki to make Sudden Strike attacks (like sneak attack, but flanking doesn't work to get it), and the surprising riposte feat works to get sudden strike just as well as sneak attack.


Being a rogue 2/Fighter 1 isn't a terrible idea in a low op game. Fighter helps on the BAB, proficiencies, and feats fronts. You could even go Fighter 2 without TOO much damage.

But keep in mind, CRIPPLING STRIKE, the rogue special ability, is amazing. It makes rogues worthwhile, and comes online at level 10 (when you get your first rogue special ability). With 2 str damage per hit, you can murderize even tough creatures with huge amounts of HP. It's best with something like Master Thrower's Palm Shot, but you can still do it with TWF and daggers. Especially against low-str opponents (like mages), it just paralyzes them at 0 str, and is amazing.

[willpell]

So the monk's AC bonus is a good option?

Whether it's good or not, I'm not prepared to speculate; I'm just saying it's an option. (I should clarify that when I mentioned the monk's AC bonus, I meant including the wisdom-to-AC part, though UA regards this as separate from the additional bonus every 5 monk levels). When I made an armorless cleric variant for the goddess of love and pleasure (Lastai in BOXD or Sune and Sharess in the Realms), I used a version of the Monk bonus which is based on Charisma instead of Wisdom (both for flavor and to decrease SAD for less auto-borkness); the idea of adding a second stat to your AC is a sound one, and is not the reason the Monk sucks (there are many such reasons, but being able to wear armor without wearing armor is one point at least in the monk's favor).


Well, the sneak attack I want to keep. I just want to be able to use it to full extent without flanking. Am I able to still sneak attack without weapons, if I consider unarmed carmendine monk?

I don't know what carmenidene monk is, but I do know that even single-class rogues are perfectly capable of sneak-attacking with an unarmed strike (they might have to dodge an AoO, but stupidly enough this doesn't mean it no longer qualifies as a sneak attack; apparently when someone catches you trying to surprise them and bashes you in the face, they're still surprised afterward - stupid Sneak Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html)).


willpell, you mean the complete adventurer/scout/warrior/... books are crap?

No, that is...not what I meant, and probably not true (though there is no Complete Scout, I suspect you mean Scoundrel). I'm not too sure I should clarify what I did mean, as it may have been a slightly inappropriate thing to say...regardless, while I'm not too familiar with Complete Warrior, I'll definitely stand by Complete Adventurer as an at-least-adequate supplement (the Ninja class isn't very good and the Spellthief is questionable, but the Scout alone would be worth the price of admission as basically a revised non-magical version of the Ranger concept, plus there's some feats that are at least interesting and quite possibly good, and I haven't even looked at the rest of the book).

******

In other news, holy crap am I reading that skill point formula in the OP right? You're getting extra skill points equal to all three mental skill modifiers, plus the existing INT? So a character with straight 18s (not at all impossible if you start out Venerable and have a decent point buy) could start the game as a Rogue with (8 + 16) x 4 = 96 skill points? Or a Factotum with 72? I will be very interested in hearing more about this game and how it doesn't break in half. I mean I've thought about maybe doubling the class skill mods or something, but this probably nets more skills even on Rogues, and the friggin' Fighters might end up with more points than they're capable of spending in-class, even if they get every Craft subheading you can think of. Sounds absolutely bonkers even if you don't allow Skill Tricks and the like.



I don't know what to do against sneak attack immune enemies right now, should they ever appear. (our current campaign maybe will feature green/black dragon enemies) Shouldn't I just leave those to my sorc and the wizard buddy?

If the DM is any good, you absolutely should not be left doing nothing for even some of the fights. If you can't stab the golem in a vulnerable spot (because "It's a rock, it doesn't have any vulnerable spots!"), then you should be frantically twisting the tumblers on a puzzle-lock on the wall which opens the safe containing the golem's off switch, or just sneaking past the golem to get into the wizard's treasure vault and sneak back out without getting flattened. A good GM will not permit any of the players to be utterly marginalized; once in a while they may not be able to contribute much other than to create a diversion and get splatted, but even that is a way for them to get the spotlight for a while, and denying them that option so they sit around bored is not commendable behavior for the DM in question. Occasionally it might be inevitable that someone dies to a lucky roll early in combat (and doesn't have a familiar or hireling or anything that they can at least roleplay the shock at their master's death), and they have to sit out the whole fight - but the DM should never pick an encounter which right off the bat guarantees that one or more players is completely friggen useless throughout the entire session. That's just not cricket at all.

[Shin]

Rejakor, as said, I am allowed to >modify< my rogue ;) to modify the class. I do a base class variant (as willpell did describe it). I don't have to take Invisible Blade for free action feint, if the DM allows it to be a feat gained by my homerule rogue. Maybe even get that feint trick at earlier levels.
Ah, so that's the secret about invisible blade. I wondered why there are such ****ty ranged combat prereqs. They really ruin that prc if you want to go melee.

Then, it's going to be sneak attack + free action feint + surprising riposte. It's not 1on1 sneak attack for free, so maybe my DM allows it. Thanks for the tip :smallsmile:

I'm fine with sneak attack, and the feats I need I'll just ram into my homerule rogue, so to say. Well, pounce, you say? a catfolk scout, humm... :smallbiggrin:
What I didn't like about the ninjaCA was him concentrating on fighting against invisible and ethereal foes that much. Plus, doesn't ghost step only give me one sudden strike a day? But I'll remember it's strengths, same with the monk ac bonus. INT to AC is on my wish list.

Ah! So crippling strike and other similar feats don't alter the dex modifier on normal attacks but lower their strength attribute score? I thought it would just mean +2 dmg points per attack based on another attribute.

that's some weird sneak attack sh*t, willpell. lol.
Well, no matter how good the books are, DM uses them anyway. But we don't ever will use Tome of Battle. DM clarified it. Heh.
Didn't take a deep look into CWarrior so far, but it has some interesting prc's. First, I thought the invisible blade was a nice rogue prc. And then I did stumble upon it's stupidly inappropriate prereqs.

Edit: About the skill points: We're more on the opposite end of skill points gain. When I entered game at lvl 2, I got 46 skill points. If I count the 8 points from rogue class five times (4xlvl1 + 1xlvl2), I get 40 points. Means, the mixed modifiers with INT 14 x2, WIS 11 and CHA 13 give me something like 1,2 points per level. So basically I could give a sh.it about my INT score, I guess. Don't ask me how my DM does it. I won't judge on it because he's doing a really good job, and even this way I as a rogue still get much more points than my quest group buddies.

Don't worry. My DM won't leave any of us behind in terms of usefulness. He even does lower the power of our naturally strong casters (our wizard, sorcerer, and druid) so that they fit more into a group with a monk and my rogue. He'll balance it well. Maybe it didn't sound like that, but our DM really is a genius at being DM.

If you're interested in our campaign, maybe I can give some insight from time to time, if there is a forum for it.

[Rejakor]

Ghost Step, which you get at level 2, gives you one round of invisibility - the STATE, as defined in the DMG, not the SPELL, as defined in the PHB. That is, it doesn't break if you smack people in the face.

If you are rewriting the rogue base class, what kind of power level are you aiming for? A good DM can make up the difference and make everyone feel useful, but I find when running games it helps if everyone is about the same power level simply because it makes it easier to design challenges that fit into the plot and don't overwhelm or underwhelm anyone.

If you and the monk are in a party with three top tier casters who know what they're doing (i.e. have picked good spells, aren't taking levels that don't advance their spellcasting, etc), it sounds like the DM wants to rewrite your classes a bit to give you bit more ability so you don't end up getting outclassed by the casters as you level up.

There is a great monk variant that keeps up with the casters in Tome, by the way. The Tome Monk is really well-written and flavourful, and I like it a lot.

For a rogue, or any class-writing exercise really, I find a good thing to do is to lay out what sort of abilities a rogue in a story should/would have, and then build class features from there -

So, a rogue should be able to -

Hide in the shadows/get out of view quickly when people show up

Knock out unsuspecting guards/minions, execute cunning unexpected attacks to rattle foes

Talk their way out of a jam

Have brought the right item for the job at hand

Have contacts and people they know nearly anywhere they go/have the ability to ferret out information and contacts in new locations

Be fast, nimble, and able to get out of dodge quickly

Be able to dodge blows and attacks

Be able to climb, run, jump, acrobat, but possibly not swim

Be devilishly handsome

Know stuff

Be lucky

So, from that, i'd write a class that has lots of skillpoints and class skills (check), has the ability to move and hide as an immediate action when they would be about to get spotted, gets the darkstalker feat at something like level 3, gets HiPS at about level 8 (hide in the shadows/get out of view quickly), has the monk fast movement progression and/or the Run feat for free(get out of dodge quickly), adds a stat to AC in light armour (i'd say intelligence - be able to dodge blows and attacks rather than be good at taking hits), gets evasion and improved evasion and uncanny dodge, get a small number of Luck points per encounter he can spend to avoid an attack, have someone assume he meant something different than what he said, or escape getting found (cat makes a noise and distracts guard searching for him etc), have a sneak attack ability that does more damage than regular Sneak Attack, but can only be used when the target is unaware of the character (so like Sudden Strike, but doing more damage, and only as part of a single attack - so like the rogue level x 10 as damage, but only one attack as a full round action and only when the enemy is unaware of the rogue), and have a selection of 'combat tricks' that are essentially melee debuffs, like sicken->nauseate, or stagger, or a dex penalty, or tripping, or blinding for one round etc so the rogue's method of doing combat is to trip people over and toss dust in their eyes etc not really just be a glass cannon of damage, give them a small damage increase called Canny Fighting or something that scales with level and doesn't require enemies to be flatfooted or whatnot but possibly scales slightly slower than normal Sneak Attack does, gets to automatically pull out any tool that would help them in that situation below a certain weight limit, number of times per day or encounter have the exact perfect thing (like knowing that a guard loves kittens, and giving him a kitten to bribe him) for the situation, automatically know people anywhere you go or be able to find things out without having to spend the time normally required to Gather Information (ear to the street sort of thing), and then at later levels it starts getting more supernatural. So you'd be able to dive into your own shadow and hide in there or use it to transport you around the place, or become made of shadow, or hide items on your person without worrying about weight limits, or produce any magic item you need out of your pockets without it being there in the first place, or using your ear to the street ability to gather information that you'd normally need Divination spells to know, being able to steal enemy's actions and give them to a friend or yourself, etc. At about level 10 this sort of thing should start. Surprise ambush, where you set up a huge ambush in advance but you get to declare that you did it retroactively, and no matter how implausible, wherever you are, you managed to arrange an ambush for your enemies of sudden allies. etc etc. That's how i'd do it, anyway.

Oh, and btw.

Crippling Strike is not a feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) And strength damage is cumulative, and this per attack. A strength score of 0 means paralyzation.

There are a bunch of Ambush feats that do ability PENALTY, which is different than damage, and that does still lower their ability score, but it doesn't stack with other penalty's so you can't do it more than once to any great effect.

[willpell]

Crippling Strike is not a feat. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#specialAbilities) And strength damage is cumulative, and this per attack. A strength score of 0 means paralyzation.

Although considering that it's a "special ability" for Rogues and one of the options for your "special ability" is "gain a feat", they could have just made it a feat with the prerequisite "Rogue level 10", and the whole system would have been just a wee bit more coherent.

[Rejakor]

Meh? If it needs rogue level 10, then there's no functional difference between the two things.

Not everything needs to be the useless crapstick that is the fighter bonus feat syndrome.

[willpell]

But it's exactly the same thing. You could just as easily rewrite the fighter as gaining a "special ability" at 4th level, with the choice being "Weapon Specialization" or "A Fighter Bonus Feat". The way they did it simply introduces the term "special ability" for no real reason.

[Rejakor]

And yet, none of those things is a bonus feat, except for one option.

You'd have to add all those things as feats with the pre-req '10 levels of rogue', so, what is functionally the difference between a special ability you can pick at level 10 in rogue, or a bunch of feats that require level 10 in rogue?

Except that a Scout 9/rogue 1 with the Swift Ambusher feat can take the feats?

[Shin]

Dunno why there's a difference, but for the purpose of modifying my rogue, I guess I'd rather treat special abilities and feats as being the same. I make them a class feat if I need it on my rogue.

Our GM sets the focus of the campaign on roleplay rather than optimized fighting, which has proven true so far. None of us was useless. He stated that he'd weaken the magician classes, meaning that they won't get their strongest magic combos which let them win any fight without any effort. If I keep that in mind, I'd say it's going to be an average difficulty campaign (tier2? 3?), with me being a bit stronger as a standard rogue and the casters being a bit weaker than standard.
My goal is not to optimize the rogue to become tier1, and for the purpose of that campaign (being more social than combat oriented, I guess), a class which gets such a high amount of skill points and has some neat combat tricks is all I need. I'll solve problems rather with using my skills than fighting.

I only want to modify the rogue in the following ways:
- Lose light armor (but, to not be too squishy, get some AC bonus instead)
- Be able to use sneak attack to full extent in 1on1, duel, and similar situations too (I guess free action feinting + surprising riposte will do the job)
- Make him really stealthy (camouflage + HiPS + darkstalker later on?)

If I'm honest, I don't want to give my rogue magic at all. That said, I'll spend points in UMD but don't expect it to be a very magic items heavy campaign. I think I don't need the movement progression, for I already have a catfolk ms of 40' with normal size.
I'm not sure about changing sneak attack to a one hit blow attack or melee debuffs. I didn't feel like I need such a thing, humm.
Craven for increased SA damage and crippling strike to debuff enemies, with staggering strike denying them full rounds?

[mattie_p]

I don't know what carmenidene monk is, but I do know that even single-class rogues are perfectly capable of sneak-attacking with an unarmed strike (they might have to dodge an AoO, but stupidly enough this doesn't mean it no longer qualifies as a sneak attack; apparently when someone catches you trying to surprise them and bashes you in the face, they're still surprised afterward - stupid Sneak Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0018.html)).

One minor note of clarification.

If a rogue uses unarmed strike in a sneak attack against a flat-footed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted)opponent, they do not get an attack of opportunity.
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

(Also, Carmendine monk is a feat from Champions of Valor. Basically uses int instead of wis for monk class features, plus can treat your monk level as 2 levels higher for unarmed damage, AC bonus, or land speed bonus)

[Telonius]

Unless the target has Combat Reflexes. (Yay added complexity...)

[Shin]

--- START OF REUSING THIS THREAD ---

I hope I'm allowed to reuse this thread and don't do thread necromancy. The last entry of this thread was excactly 7 days ago, on 14. of november.

I try to create a proper rogue build in our DM's new and "slightly" changed system.
Home rules: We use PHB I+II, the "Complete" books, Dungeonscape, DM's Guide. Content from other books is accepted as well, with one exception: No ToB at all!

Current level is 3 (catfolk, LA+1, buyoff allowed). I'm looking for prestige classes who synergize well with each other. I want to play a ninja but am willing to begin with the stronger rogue base class. Don't want to be a skillmonkey, just want to keep the important skills for rogue high. Don't want my character to have magic (no caster prc's!). I do use the rogue handbook and ninja handbook to get an overview.
Currently, I'm interested in:

Rogue (base class)
Ninja (base class)
Avenger (prc, Assassin)
Nightsong Enforcer (prc)
Ninja Spy (prc)
Invisible Blade (prc)
Master Thrower (prc)
Telflammer Shadowlord (prc)
Shadow Sun Ninja isn't an option because it's ToB content, Spymaster+Cloaked Dancer combination doesn't sound that strong and isn't what I'm looking for, I guess.

Which of these classes synergize well with each other /fit into one single build? Options I've considered so far:
Rogue3/DipAny1/Avenger9/NSEnforcer7 (would be rogue only)
Rogue3/Ninja Spy10/NSEnforcer7 (ninja! yes!)

Maybe there are still other valuable prcs out there? Are these two builds fine? Maybe use NinjaX/Telflammar ShadowlordX because Shadowlord is prc tier 1?

Please help me build a proper ninja! Thank you.

[LTwerewolf]

If daring outlaw's not off the table it can be decent enough.

[Shin]

You mean Rogue4/Swashbuckler16?

[LTwerewolf]

You mean Rogue4/Swashbuckler16?

Yeah, less of a skill-monkey but not bad for straight attacks.

[Snowbluff]

Alternatively you can be a Swift Ambusher. Bonus points for picking up Sand Dancer for some extra effect while tumbling into a flanking position.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Daring Outlaw is gonna net you more SA and a better BAB than just about any PrC out there.