Let's fix the monk! (Again, probably)

[Zelkon]

Hello Playgrounders, it's that time again! That's right, I want to make a brand new monk class, aiming for tier two and using most of the core features of a monk (flurry of blows, ki strikes, etc) but 1) functional and 2) awesome. We should make the monk a fun class to play. You should whirl around the battlefield bringing on the pain to tons of different enemies, blocking che (or whatever), just flat out being a boss.
I think we should start with a little brainstorming:
Increase numerical values so that flurry of blows is not actually gimping you and unarmed strike can give you the damage potential of a blaster caster.
Add a Ki pool for versatility.
Implement a sort of maneuver system that utilizes said Ki pool.
Make more awesome, flavorful stuff like quivering palm.
Implement a mechanic to disable foes by blocking che (damn you spelling!).
FULL BAB!
Make stuff like diamond body and mind actually mean something.

What do you think?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why tier 2? Generally speaking, one tries to avoid making T1/T2 classes. None of what you're talking about sounds like anything more than T3. The tiers aren't a measure of raw power, remember.

In any case, you should ask yourself "why?" What are other monk fixes (everything from "play an unarmed swordsage" to complete chi-based rebuilds) not doing that you think needs to be done?

The next question is "what." As in "what does my monk want to focus on?" Damage? Debuffs? Mobility?

[Andion Isurand]

Perhaps an ability that allows the monk to move their speed as a swift action would be nice for both mobility without gimping the full attack action.

You could turn it into a martial maneuver and give the monk access to martial disciplines... and turn your Ki usage system into a martial maneuver recovery method.

Here's an ability you could possibly add to your monk.

Amplified Assault (Su): Whenever a monk strikes a target with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or manufactured weapon, he may add a bonus to the damage dealt, equal to the spell level of the highest level spell or spell-like ability currently in effect upon the target.

[Yitzi]

The first step to a monk fix is to figure out what the monk actually is supposed to be, in terms of both fluff and mechanics. You seem to have already made a decision on that (different than I would, but this is your thread, so let's work with your ideas): The monk is (in your vision) an unarmed mobile combatant. You said tier 2, so that means spells of some sort as well. So here are some ideas I have for you:

1. Flurry of Blows can be done with standard-action attacks. This is pretty much essential for anything of this sort.
2. I would advise against full BAB; to get tier 2, we'll be giving him enough other nifty stuff that it won't really be needed.
3. Mobility should be given as a bonus feat, and early on.
4. A ki pool is definitely a good idea, but let's take it a step further and make it a full-fledged psi-like mechanic:

-Starting at level 4, the monk gets base ki points equal to the pp of a psion at level-3 (so a level 10 monk has 46 base ki points, because a level 7 psion has 46 pp). He adds an amount equal to his WIS modifier times class level.

-The monk uses these points to use Ki Abilities (treated as supernatural, not spell-like, so they can't be dispelled.) As with spells and powers, the points he can spend, and the duration of his abilities and to some extent their power, depend on his class level. There are a lot of ki abilities, of a variety of flavors:


-Existing supernatural monk mechanics are turned into ki abilities with some appropriate cost. (Empty Body in particular should be far easier to use.)


-There are a lot of self-buffing ki abilities, mostly based off the martial buffs of the cleric's list, but possibly also some drawn from the psychic warrior's list. As ki abilities, these are personal-range only. Include a mix of offensive and defensive abilities.


-Immediate-action spells and powers that boost attacks should be very common on the ki ability list. Include every one you know of, and maybe write some new ones. Again, these are personal-range only.


-In addition, some single-target enchantment and necromancy debuff spells should make the list as well (refluffing if necessary), but with several important changes: The monk needs to make a successful unarmed attack (not touch attack) to deliver them. (If he misses, it's the same as failing on a melee touch attack; you're still holding the charge and can try again.) The ability is used as part of the attack. And if the spell allows a save, the monk's ability has a DC equal to 10+WIS modifier plus half of {ki point cost of the ability plus damage done with the attack}, rounded down. (The bonus for damage done with the attack is because the monk suffers from MAD, and this should compensate him somewhat.) And because these abilities are supernatural and can't be dispelled, they can be removed with Remove Curse (except for those that are instantaneous, such as death effects.) Yes, this means that a monk can Dominate someone by punching them in the face and channeling ki into them.

-A monk doesn't know all possible ki abilities. Each level starting with 4th, he gets knowledge of 2 abilities that he is a high enough level to use (i.e. with cost no more than his class level.)

[Zelkon]

Why tier 2? Generally speaking, one tries to avoid making T1/T2 classes. None of what you're talking about sounds like anything more than T3. The tiers aren't a measure of raw power, remember.

In any case, you should ask yourself "why?" What are other monk fixes (everything from "play an unarmed swordsage" to complete chi-based rebuilds) not doing that you think needs to be done?

The next question is "what." As in "what does my monk want to focus on?" Damage? Debuffs? Mobility?
Because tier 2 for me is the perfect blend of power and flexibility: just enough so that it's fun and interesting, yet still predictable enough for me to actually be able to design encounters. Lower tier two is fine.
The reason why nothing else does it for me is because none of it, for one, is tier 2. Two, none that I have seen have given that awesome battlefield presence. Three, I love homebrew and balance, and the two mesh well here. Those are enough reasons for me; for you, I don't know.
The Monk does OK outside of combat. Lowering the levels of a lot of his RP abilities would help, as would adding to the skill list. But that's pretty minor stuff. The monk that I have in mind is kind of a combat equivalent to the bard, not in the sense that he is more effective, but more that he can do anything (hit anyone, overcome any difficult terrain, etc.)


Perhaps an ability that allows the monk to move their speed as a swift action would be nice for both mobility without gimping the full attack action.

You could turn it into a martial maneuver and give the monk access to martial disciplines... and turn your Ki usage system into a martial maneuver recovery method.

Here's an ability you could possibly add to your monk.

Amplified Assault (Su): Whenever a monk strikes a target with an unarmed strike, natural weapon or manufactured weapon, he may add a bonus to the damage dealt, equal to the spell level of the highest level spell or spell-like ability currently in effect upon the target.
The swift action idea is great. I will likely add some slightly altered maneuvers to the monk's Ki power list, which will definitely use Yitzi's suggestions.


The first step to a monk fix is to figure out what the monk actually is supposed to be, in terms of both fluff and mechanics. You seem to have already made a decision on that (different than I would, but this is your thread, so let's work with your ideas): The monk is (in your vision) an unarmed mobile combatant. You said tier 2, so that means spells of some sort as well. So here are some ideas I have for you:

1. Flurry of Blows can be done with standard-action attacks. This is pretty much essential for anything of this sort.
2. I would advise against full BAB; to get tier 2, we'll be giving him enough other nifty stuff that it won't really be needed.
3. Mobility should be given as a bonus feat, and early on.
4. A ki pool is definitely a good idea, but let's take it a step further and make it a full-fledged psi-like mechanic:

-Starting at level 4, the monk gets base ki points equal to the pp of a psion at level-3 (so a level 10 monk has 46 base ki points, because a level 7 psion has 46 pp). He adds an amount equal to his WIS modifier times class level.

-The monk uses these points to use Ki Abilities (treated as supernatural, not spell-like, so they can't be dispelled.) As with spells and powers, the points he can spend, and the duration of his abilities and to some extent their power, depend on his class level. There are a lot of ki abilities, of a variety of flavors:


-Existing supernatural monk mechanics are turned into ki abilities with some appropriate cost. (Empty Body in particular should be far easier to use.)


-There are a lot of self-buffing ki abilities, mostly based off the martial buffs of the cleric's list, but possibly also some drawn from the psychic warrior's list. As ki abilities, these are personal-range only. Include a mix of offensive and defensive abilities.


-Immediate-action spells and powers that boost attacks should be very common on the ki ability list. Include every one you know of, and maybe write some new ones. Again, these are personal-range only.


-In addition, some single-target enchantment and necromancy debuff spells should make the list as well (refluffing if necessary), but with several important changes: The monk needs to make a successful unarmed attack (not touch attack) to deliver them. (If he misses, it's the same as failing on a melee touch attack; you're still holding the charge and can try again.) The ability is used as part of the attack. And if the spell allows a save, the monk's ability has a DC equal to 10+WIS modifier plus half of {ki point cost of the ability plus damage done with the attack}, rounded down. (The bonus for damage done with the attack is because the monk suffers from MAD, and this should compensate him somewhat.) And because these abilities are supernatural and can't be dispelled, they can be removed with Remove Curse (except for those that are instantaneous, such as death effects.) Yes, this means that a monk can Dominate someone by punching them in the face and channeling ki into them.

-A monk doesn't know all possible ki abilities. Each level starting with 4th, he gets knowledge of 2 abilities that he is a high enough level to use (i.e. with cost no more than his class level.)

I'm curious as to what you think the monk is. I want to make this an inclusive process after all. Your 1-4 ideas are good, and I will definitely implement them. I love the idea of channeling your chi abilities. Totally what I had in mind flavor-wise. I would love some mechanic to chi block the other person, which would inhibit them in some way. Still thinking about that.

[TuggyNE]

Because tier 2 for me is the perfect blend of power and flexibility: just enough so that it's fun and interesting, yet still predictable enough for me to actually be able to design encounters. Lower tier two is fine.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense; the definition of tier 2 is "Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

A tier 2 monk, then, would be one that can literally change the course of your campaign and world singlehandedly, over and over again, with the use of one or two of their abilities; their only limitation is that they have only a few such incredibly powerful gamechangers.

Compare tier 3, the more common balance point for homebrew: "Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with. Can be game breaking only with specific intent to do so. Challenging such a character takes some thought from the DM, but isn't too difficult. Will outshine any Tier 5s in the party much of the time." Consider carefully whether you really want "can break the game 1/day as an Su ability" or rather "can do awesome stuff that doesn't require rewriting the entire rest of the campaign".

[Cipher Stars]

Hello Playgrounders, it's that time again! That's right, I want to make a brand new monk class, aiming for tier two and using most of the core features of a monk (flurry of blows, ki strikes, etc) but 1) functional and 2) awesome. We should make the monk a fun class to play. You should whirl around the battlefield bringing on the pain to tons of different enemies, blocking che (or whatever), just flat out being a boss.
I think we should start with a little brainstorming:
Increase numerical values so that flurry of blows is not actually gimping you and unarmed strike can give you the damage potential of a blaster caster.
Add a Ki pool for versatility.
Implement a sort of maneuver system that utilizes said Ki pool.
Make more awesome, flavorful stuff like quivering palm.
Implement a mechanic to disable foes by blocking che (damn you spelling!).
FULL BAB!
Make stuff like diamond body and mind actually mean something.

What do you think?



First thing's first, you should know that there are tons of Monk classes and fixes here on Gitp. I myself have three monk classes I've created (I believe two are here on GITP. One sounds like it might interest you, The Elemental Slayer. If that doesn't cut it for you, you can feel free to take whatever you want from it into your own fix/class).

Look around, you can find plenty of monk classes/fixes to pick at, mix and match to make your own if none suit what you wish.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I kind of agree with tuggyne. A T3 and a T3 class can look very similar. Take, for example, the sorcerer and the swordsage. Both pick a limited set of abilities from a nice, long, list. Both lists have plenty of different abilities that are useful both in and out of combat. The difference is that the sorcerer's spells have far more raw power. Not in terms of raw damage, mind, but in the ability to instantly shut down encounters, bypass challenges with a single casting, and render entire classes obsolete. They reach above T3 by grabbing onto the most broken aspects of 3.5. You do know what a T2 character will be able to do, but that doesn't mean that you can stop it (at least, not without extreme GM fiat)

While you could make a T2 monk, your chi abilities would have to be silly-powerful. Polymorph effects, summonings, save-or-dies, unavoidable battlefield control, long-range teleportation, time manipulation, and the like. Which, while possible, doesn't really seem to be the kind of thing you're going for.

And really... everything you're saying fits a T3 class. Yitzi had good ideas on that subject.

[Yitzi]

I'm curious as to what you think the monk is.

This is going to, if you follow it, take things in a completely different direction than where you seem to be going, but to me, the monk is not primarily a fighter-type. He's probably closer to a rogue than a fighter, and maybe he should even get 6+INT skill points. (Full BAB is definitely a no-go by this vision). What he is really about, though, is self-perfection. So he should get a lot of abilities focused on that: Immunities to various types of effects (by level 20, immunity to all hostile magic might be well worth it), the ability to heal himself (maybe even regeneration when conscious at higher levels), and WIS and DEX bonuses to various things (even stuff that normally uses other ability scores), for perfection of mind and body respectively. And then you have ki, which to me is essentially (in this context) the ability to manifest the spirit or soul outward, so at higher levels he should get out-of-body capability (as a capstone, maybe even the ability to stay out-of-body indefinitely, surviving as a sort of spirit even if his body dies), and maybe the ability to intercept spells cast on nearby targets and redirect them to himself (and of course he's immune to half of them and nearly immune to the other half), and I'm not sure what else. But to me, FoB and Ki Strike are among the least important parts of the monk.


While you could make a T2 monk, your chi abilities would have to be silly-powerful. Polymorph effects, summonings, save-or-dies, unavoidable battlefield control, long-range teleportation, time manipulation, and the like. Which, while possible, doesn't really seem to be the kind of thing you're going for.

And really... everything you're saying fits a T3 class. Yitzi had good ideas on that subject.

Actually, I was aiming for T2; that's why I suggested Cleric for self-buffs and Enchantment/Necromancy (which tend to be heavy on save-or-lose) for debuffs. If you still want T2, teleportation is a great ki ability too.

[Zelkon]

I kind of agree with tuggyne. A T3 and a T3 class can look very similar. Take, for example, the sorcerer and the swordsage. Both pick a limited set of abilities from a nice, long, list. Both lists have plenty of different abilities that are useful both in and out of combat. The difference is that the sorcerer's spells have far more raw power. Not in terms of raw damage, mind, but in the ability to instantly shut down encounters, bypass challenges with a single casting, and render entire classes obsolete. They reach above T3 by grabbing onto the most broken aspects of 3.5. You do know what a T2 character will be able to do, but that doesn't mean that you can stop it (at least, not without extreme GM fiat)

While you could make a T2 monk, your chi abilities would have to be silly-powerful. Polymorph effects, summonings, save-or-dies, unavoidable battlefield control, long-range teleportation, time manipulation, and the like. Which, while possible, doesn't really seem to be the kind of thing you're going for.

And really... everything you're saying fits a T3 class. Yitzi had good ideas on that subject.

A psion is tier two, right? I think you can make flavorful abilities that mimic the powers of a slightly less powerful psion then increase versatility by adding some minor(-ish) buffs and supreme combat prowess. And if we can't, high tier 3 is fine, too. As long as he can compete with a sorcerer, I'm fine.

[Zelkon]

Yitzi, I have begun work on a first draft. I don't see why the monk's Supernatural abilities need to be Ki abilities. It's 1/day things most certainly can be Ki abilities, but stuff like diamond body? I think that can stay. I also think that it's current Su abilities can be turned into automatically gained Ki powers (so a monk gains Dimension Door at level 12 as a Ki ability, etc)

[Yitzi]

Yitzi, I have begun work on a first draft. I don't see why the monk's Supernatural abilities need to be Ki abilities. It's 1/day things most certainly can be Ki abilities, but stuff like diamond body? I think that can stay.

You're right; I should have said "activated Su abilities".


I also think that it's current Su abilities can be turned into automatically gained Ki powers (so a monk gains Dimension Door at level 12 as a Ki ability, etc)

Yeah, I think that's fair.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you're shooting for T2, you have to match abilities up against spells. Slow Fall? Worse than Feather Fall, a first level spell, so it should come in at full effect at level 1-2. Dimension Door? That's a 4th level spell, so the monk should get it at 7th-8th level. And so on.

[Yitzi]

If you're shooting for T2, you have to match abilities up against spells. Slow Fall? Worse than Feather Fall, a first level spell, so it should come in at full effect at level 1-2. Dimension Door? That's a 4th level spell, so the monk should get it at 7th-8th level. And so on.

Not quite. It's ok if the monk has some abilities which are inferior (in power or availability) to corresponding spells, provided that he's tier 2 without those abilities. So Slow Fall can be kept as is, and then just add other features so that he'd be tier 2 even without Slow Fall; getting a weak ability isn't going to lower his tier. (Dimension Door should probably be moved up, though.)

[Zelkon]

I would actually love to give the monk at-will "teleport your speed" at some higher level, but idk if that would work. It would be really cool if in the middle of FoB, a monk could teleport to another enemy to finish the Flurry on that enemy.

[Kasbark]

Faster than the eye (SU): 5/day (or costing x KI points, whatever you decide to go with) By spending a Swift action the Monk instantly moves up to his base speed. The Monk cannot move any further this round. Neither activating this ability or the movement itself provokes attacks of opportunity. If using the Full Attack Action or Flurry of Blows you can use Faster than the eye at any point during the attacks. You can make any remaining attacks after your move.