Tengu (raptoran refashioning), please comment

[Phaederkiel]

In a new, and probably very short campaign I want to DM to get acustomed to a setting (for a comic i am going to start soonish), I need some unique player races, since I want to avoid the classical D&D fantasy feeling.

(for example: no Dwarfs, no elves, Undead VERY short lived, no vapires, no werewolfs)

The setting is somewhat oriental, a big desert crossed by a really big river in which 7 giant trees (1 km high, about 2,5 km diameter of the crown) are standing. Upon these are cities, and chances are that my players will have to climb such a tree.

One of the earliest design for a race for the setting was some kind of birdmen,
which I call tengu, for simplicity (even if there are probably d&d tengu).

Now one player wants to play one, and I essentaly copied the stats of a raptoran:


30 land speed
can glide with average maneuverability, cannot hover, 20 ft forward per 5 ft downward, 40ft speed
learns to fly con modifier rounds at hd5
+10 racial bonus on Jump
+2 racial bonus on climb
+5 racial bonus on spot
+5 racial bonus on search
unerring direction: always know where their nest is.

handlike feet: Tengu can use their feet to wield their weapons, if they choose to triple wield, they get another -2 on all atacks, -6 against bullrush and trip atempts and have to make a dc 20 balance check to attack with their foot-held weapon.

Automatically proficent with: Footbow, katana/scimitar/falchion, glaive, longspear.

since I gave them some proficencys (and some more racial skills, I also tacked on:
-2 con




do you think this is fair? Raptorans are draconic, which my tengu lose. He gains some perception bonus, a funky way to triple wield (which I doubt will see use). I think that the ability to cheaply fly (the campaign is lvl 4) is more worth than usual, considering they are going up a giant tree, which has 3 or 4 days worth of travel upward, while getting attacked and i constant peril of falling to doom. And I think raptorans are somewhat unbalanced anyway.
So, do you think this -2 con is fair? Is it too little? Too much?

She will play a swordsage with Tiger jumping maneuvers and Diamond mind strikes. I think I will remove the meelee-attack-restriction from most of the diamond strikes to faciliate a certain sniper feeling without having to switch in a completely homebrew discipline.
Do you think this will work okay? or do you think it breaks the balance badly?

I am also considering to power up the footbow somehow. from 1d8x3 to
-4 to attack and 2d8x3 with up to 5 strength bonus (she will have at most a 16 strength, so i doubt this will do much damage).
Do you think that Bow would be too powerful? I mean, a human leg has 3 times the strength of an arm, I think 1d8x3 is underwhelming.

Would she need a feat to use that thing effectively in flight?


okay, that were many questions. I hope you will answer some.
Thanks in advance.

[rockdeworld]

I think if no one wants to play one, it doesn't really matter what the stats are. That said, it's not a terrible race. It would make a decent scout with its ability to fly if you didn't tack on a con -2. As is, I can see why no one would want to play it, because it would be extremely hard to get off the ground. I can imagine these birds looking like peacocks, unable to fly more than a few feet, and only the strong ones can do that.

[Malroth]

Really really weak race and i can't see anyone ever being more useful than a straight human in any role in any campaign. Their glide ability is far too infrequent to ever see any use especially with a racial penalty to the affected stat, and they gain at most 3 rounds of daily flight at the same level your casters can fly around all day. I'd say give them Flight from lv 1 for a number of rounds per encounter equal to con mod+ character level before becoming fatigued and allow them unlimited use of glide.

[123456789blaaa]

The Kenku race in the MM3 is pretty similar to a tengu. It's pretty horribly underused considering how good and unique it is.

[Phaederkiel]

@ 123456789blaaa
The Kenku are really a nice race, I like the flanking bonuses. Alas, I imagined the race to be flying and shooting arrows while doing so, using a giant bow with their feet. (even before I knew that the raptorans also had footbos)

@Malroth
well, always playing humans is a wee bit boring, don't you think? I mean, we play human all our real life...
ehm, to your points: they already have unlimited glide, and they can always glide between their phases of flight, which makes the ability more than okayish.

At ECL 4, no other character can as constantly fly, and the setting has a lot of
possibiliies to fall to ones doom.


@rockdeworld
Did I write no one wanted to play one? I rechecked twice...I get a bit unfocused at this time o' clock.
They can jump quite well, and they have boni to climb. I think it is easy to assume they will climb somewhere high and then glide far. Anyway after one lvlup, she can fly without help.



I can take your comments as: -2 con is too much for the additional stuff i added to the raptoran?

[rockdeworld]

@rockdeworld
Did I write no one wanted to play one? I rechecked twice...I get a bit unfocused at this time o' clock.
They can jump quite well, and they have boni to climb. I think it is easy to assume they will climb somewhere high and then glide far. Anyway after one lvlup, she can fly without help.

I can take your comments as: -2 con is too much for the additional stuff i added to the raptoran?
Sorry, I misread. I see you said one person wanted to play one. In which case, unless they are terrible at optimizing or extremely new, there's probably no problem. Just make sure they perfectly understand they understand how this race and flight interact (especially since you haven't listed the maneuverability).

And yes, -2 Con is too much. As someone said above, note that you're comparing "climb up a tree and then fly for 6-12 seconds followed by a glide" with a wizard or cleric's straight-up "fly for 300 seconds."

[Phaederkiel]

well, at the lvl we are starting, the wizard has not yet access to the fly spell. He might have swift fly and feather fall prepared,which count for something, sure. But even after lvl up, there is a big possibility mr. Wizard needs flight more than one time that day. Which could easily mean that he cannot pack much else on the third spell-lvl.

Do you think I can give the race everything it has now without any negatives?

[rockdeworld]

Do you think I can give the race everything it has now without any negatives?
I think ability modifiers make a race more interesting. The only reason humans don't have one is that they're the baseline. Does your race have the same abilities as a human? If not, I would give them a +2 and a -2. Maybe +2 Dex, -2 Str. I wouldn't simply give -2.

[Phaederkiel]

hmm. if I would have to give a positive, it would be either dex or wisdom.

But a negative has probably to be con, because of the frail hollow bones birds tend to have.

Perhaps a -con is too big only because it affects so much. perhaps -1 Hitpoint per lvl is a better solution.

ehm, since you have helped me so much here, would you mind to give my other homebrew race a very quick glance? Noone has commented there, and I am even less sure if i have balanced it well.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14213665#post14213665