League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[Nadevoc]

Man. It looked like Alex Ich pretty much contained Misaya's TF during lane phase, but afterwards WE just had really, really clean execution. Misaya came in at the right time and place, every time, and then Amumu and Sona ults back to back - I think they landed the combo every single time.

[Eldariel]

Man. It looked like Alex Ich pretty much contained Misaya's TF during lane phase, but afterwards WE just had really, really clean execution. Misaya came in at the right time and place, every time, and then Amumu and Sona ults back to back - I think they landed the combo every single time.

G2 is Diamond Lee.

[Silverraptor]

So, after being edged on to get League replays, I've concluded that its the best thing that has happened to me (And probably the worst thing that happened to you guys). The reason is, I will feel compelled to post random games that I was generally pleased about and would like to share with all of you.:smallcool:

For example, I played this game with some pubbies earlier. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2527892/) I did decent as kog'ma I think. But what I liked the most in the game where a bad trade had my soraka running to our turret, she was almost out of range of ez, but then I remembered his q and thus moved to intercept. However, he didn't q, he did his flash skill and I was close enough that his attack hit me instead of soraka, saving her since she was 1 hit away from dying. I felt really good about that.:smallbiggrin:

[McDouggal]

So, after being edged on to get League replays, I've concluded that its the best thing that has happened to me (And probably the worst thing that happened to you guys). The reason is, I will feel compelled to post random games that I was generally pleased about and would like to share with all of you.:smallcool:

For example, I played this game with some pubbies earlier. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2527892/) I did decent as kog'ma I think. But what I liked the most in the game where a bad trade had my soraka running to our turret, she was almost out of range of ez, but then I remembered his q and thus moved to intercept. However, he didn't q, he did his flash skill and I was close enough that his attack hit me instead of soraka, saving her since she was 1 hit away from dying. I felt really good about that.:smallbiggrin:

I'm still trying to set it up here. Current problem is that it doesn't want to start up from desktop. Or the application start. Derp it was in the tray. Have it set so that I can see it's running. It also saves to a findable folder this time.

[Ashen Lilies]

Credit is where credit's due. First Win of the Day goes to Blitzcrank, who fed me fresh-picked Vaynes like a boss so I could crush the entire enemy team under a crazed, cackling spray of pistol fire. Also, the enemy Kassadin, who repeatedly tried to gank us at half health, despite the fact we are both at full health, at tower, and also BLITZCRANK.

Also, note to self. NEVER PLAY BLITZCRANK AGAIN. You're terrible at it. Stick to Leona pl0x. Though it probably didn't help that Draven refused to lane with me so I got stuck with the Sion who decided to 2v1 Irelia and Kat, die, then friggin' REVIVE so that he could 2v1 Irelia and Kat again, all before I even managed to get from the summoner platform to the tower with my poor, bootless feet. Seriously, what the hell... the only reason he managed to get kills at all is because I served them to him on a silver platter.

[McDouggal]

Wat. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q02zv5LxR-4)

(Bug that made this possible was fixed, dammit...)

[NineThePuma]

The passive on her E (which still doesn't show the scaling in the tool tip, now that I think about it) used to proc off of ANYTHING she killed, so she jumps and kills the minions and all of the minions explode individually.

[TheShrike]

The crucial difference being that now things only explode if they die from her autoattack.

EDIT: Not really following IPL atm, but based on a quick look at the brackets, WE is the team to beat right now, correct? CLG.EU hasn't faced any top tier teams yet (I mean, top of NA, sure, but it's not like CLG.NA or TSM were ever going to be contenders for first), though TPA is looking fairly strong, beating out M5.

[Temotei]

6300+ IP time and I refuse to choose this time for myself. The Playground can help me!


Zed
Jayce
Hecarim
Lulu
Fizz
Shyvana


Yeah. So. Thanks, boiiiiiiiiis.

[Vauron]

6300+ IP time and I refuse to choose this time for myself. The Playground can help me!


Zed
Jayce
Hecarim
Lulu
Fizz
Shyvana


Yeah. So. Thanks, boiiiiiiiiis.

Lulu.

You are never quite the same again once you taste purple.

[Eldariel]

The crucial difference being that now things only explode if they die from her autoattack.

EDIT: Not really following IPL atm, but based on a quick look at the brackets, WE is the team to beat right now, correct? CLG.EU hasn't faced any top tier teams yet (I mean, top of NA, sure, but it's not like CLG.NA or TSM were ever going to be contenders for first), though TPA is looking fairly strong, beating out M5.

WE is doing amazing but it's worth noting CLG.EU has always beaten WE in tournament (both at World Champs & in OGN). Honestly, all the teams in the Winner Brackets are looking pretty good.

Even CLG.Prime is looking quite strong; their horrible loss to CLG.EU was due to a level 1 engagement gone bad mostly. Fnatic stomped Azubu Blaze, so while they lost to WE, having beaten CLG.EU just last week at Dreamhack Winter I'd say they're a force to be reckoned with too.


And out of the loser brackets, M5 and Azubu Blaze are down but not out. Crs.NA has also put on a very respectable showing in spite of getting the Group of Death; I was really impressed by how well they did vs. M5 especially Match 1.

Lastly, Singapore Sentinels can pull off upsets on a good day. I wanna see more Karma/Urgot Super Bruiser comps, this time without toplane getting owned by Olaf level 1 and falling over 2x behind on CS.

[Dragonus45]

So im just logging on now to play my first game in almost a year on my new laptop. Im about to ruin my teams day i think.

[NineThePuma]

One of Those Games.

I'm on TT, and it ends up being Trynd vs GP top (I'm GP). I win lane handily, with more than 20 more CS than Trynd.

Unfortunately, bot lane (Swain+Shen vs Leona/Lux) is losing HARD. Swain is sitting at 4/11 after the first couple skirmishes, and when I tell him he's looking really glass cannon and should probably get a bit more tanky, he acts high and mighty, telling me I have no right to comment when I'm building fairly glass cannon.

His final build, 5k gold behind me, was RoA and Rylais.

[Cogwheel]

Im about to ruin my teams day i think.


One of Those Games.

I'm on TT, and it ends up being Trynd vs GP top (I'm GP). I win lane handily, with more than 20 more CS than Trynd.

Unfortunately, bot lane (Swain+Shen vs Leona/Lux) is losing HARD. Swain is sitting at 4/11 after the first couple skirmishes, and when I tell him he's looking really glass cannon and should probably get a bit more tanky, he acts high and mighty, telling me I have no right to comment when I'm building fairly glass cannon.

His final build, 5k gold behind me, was RoA and Rylais.

Coincidence? I think not.

[ChaosOS]

HEEEECARRRIIIIMMM
Vote: Party Pony


Anyways, the CLG.eu vs. CLG.na match was pretty funny to watch, when .eu got the advantage they just kept sniping and picking people off. .na did a fairly good job though for the rest of the game given the bad early start.

[Cogwheel]

Darius/Draven is a rather fun botlane.

Darius is a surprisingly passable support, too. Well, as long as you don't mind him grabbing a good chunk of the kills. That sort of happens.

[toasty]

Anyways, the CLG.eu vs. CLG.na match was pretty funny to watch, when .eu got the advantage they just kept sniping and picking people off. .na did a fairly good job though for the rest of the game given the bad early start.

Really? The game was pretty much over the second CLGEU got those three kills. I thought it was pretty boring. :smalltongue:

[Ivellius]

6300+ IP time and I refuse to choose this time for myself. The Playground can help me!


Zed
Jayce
Hecarim
Lulu
Fizz
Shyvana


Yeah. So. Thanks, boiiiiiiiiis.

Hecarim, even if I'm terrible with him. He seems like a champion I would be decent with given my style, but I can't get the hang of him.

[Cogwheel]

Hecarim, even if I'm terrible with him. He seems like a champion I would be decent with given my style, but I can't get the hang of him.

S3 will do wonders for his jungling (Spirit of the Lizard Eldeeeeeer), so there's that to consider too.

[Godskook]

Zed
Jayce
Hecarim
Lulu
Fizz
Shyvana


Defend tomorrow, buy Jayce.

[Duos]

I looked at Karen too, I'm confused.
How does a passive that makes autos happen without stopping movement cause tankiness? It makes her better at chasing, yes, but tanky?

Karen's passive grants armor and MR after casting. You're looking at a different champion. Also, The passive you're referring too is kind of broken, that probably needs to be changed.

[Arbitrarity]

Hecarim, even if I'm terrible with him. He seems like a champion I would be decent with given my style, but I can't get the hang of him.

BREAK THEIR RANKS

My love of ponies is presently unsurpassed.

His S3 jungle will probably be kinda weak, if anything, but I agree that Spirit of the Lizard Elder+Rampage will be SO GOOD.

Iceborn Gauntlet and new Spirit Visage also look sick for him, though Iceborn Gauntlet vs Trinity Force is a bit of a tricky comparison. While he'll do less sustained autoattack damage with the Gauntlet, I suspect the CDR, armor, and more consistent slow are better. Depends on how you're doing, I guess.

[Thrawn183]

Iceborn Gauntlet and new Spirit Visage also look sick for him, though Iceborn Gauntlet vs Trinity Force is a bit of a tricky comparison. While he'll do less sustained autoattack damage with the Gauntlet, I suspect the CDR, armor, and more consistent slow are better. Depends on how you're doing, I guess.

Isn't the Iceborn Gauntlet slow AoE, making it better for team fights?

[Reynard]

Isn't the Iceborn Gauntlet slow AoE, making it better for team fights?

The slow and the extra damage are AoE, making it even better for teamfights.

[Arbitrarity]

The slow and the extra damage are AoE, making it even better for teamfights.

Especially for Hecarim, with Spirit of Dread. SO MUCH HEALING.

Still less single target damage, and no 12% movespeed though. And there's no way you're getting both items. Probably going to be Gauntlet almost all the time, really.

[Xiander]

6300+ IP time and I refuse to choose this time for myself. The Playground can help me!


Zed
Jayce
Hecarim
Lulu
Fizz
Shyvana


Yeah. So. Thanks, boiiiiiiiiis.

I vote Lulu.

Faeries and squirrels, what's not to like? :smallbiggrin:

[ChaosOS]

Thing is, Trinity is freaking expensive that by getting Iceborn Gauntlet, you can put that extra money towards getting your Spirit visage faster (Which, notably, is more expensive now with the Neg cloak and the recipe cost increase). Even with jungle gold buffs, Trinity Force adds almost no defense and Hecarim scales much harder with defensive items that let him tank the enemy team for longer for more rampages than with just the damage from Trinity.

New Hecarim build
Merc Treads
Spirit of Lizard Elder
Iceborn Gauntlet
Spirit Visage
Shurelyas for Team Utility or Black Cleaver for more damage
Guardian Angel (Because it's just too strong now with the 30% HP+20% more from Spirit Visage making it a 36% revive, and your W will be back up most likely by the end of the revive since you have 40% CDR)

[Silverraptor]

Guys, This game is all the silly. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2533627/) Like, its absolutely hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

Guys, This game is all the silly. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2533627/) Like, its absolutely hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Be garen, use support set up, win 2v1 lane?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Moar talk about that champion concept I posted, I guess. Spoiler'd for your convenience.
I'm not on PBE, anyway, so I'm fairly confused about these S3 changes ya'all are talking about.


Passive: Hugely problematic. First, is it a 1:1 conversion ratio? AP is cheaper point for point than AD, so giving a straight conversion is a problem. Secondly, stacking resistances becomes very powerful because they stack and you end up with 400 resist that applies to ALL incoming damage. Part of what balances resists is that they only work on about half of incoming damage. Second, this COMPLETELY shuts down mages. There is no counterplay. They can't build any penetration without going way out of their way. I understand that this is supposed to be a counter to mages, but super hard counters are just no fun to play against.
I wasn't aware that AP was cheaper than AD. I admit, I was intending for a 1:1 conversion, but it seems like there's going to have to be MATH/balancing to make it somewhat equal. The stacking resistances are, well, kind of the point. He is designed to be a hard counter to mages. He's SUPPOSED to kill dem mages good. Passives need to give Champions some sort of edge, take away the stacking resistances and... he has no passive, at all, so we need a new one that works with his flavour.
Yes, there is counterplay. There's the same counterplay as any AD carry facing a physical tank. Teamwork and Armour pen. Good enough for Twitch v Armour-stacking Malaphite, good enough for a mage.


Energy: I'm assuming you mean the ninja energy resource?
Well, I can't exactly give him mana, can I? The martial artist "energy" seems like the best fit.


Q: Alright, basic nuke with snare

W: Again, fine, not much to say
Great! Yay! I did something right!
Wait a second? Q? Isn't that Summoner Spell 1?


E: Damage to mana is a mechanic that was removed from the game (Wit's End used to have it). It might be okay to be added in a champ-specific case, but it's screwy. One, resourceless or alternative resource champs ignore it. Second, mages ignore it. Yeah, you read that right. Who it really ends up screwing over is people like Rammus who have a small mana pool and don't build mana; old WE ended up not really affecting mages because their pool was large enough that it didn't affect them much. And for people like Rammus, it's extremely anti-fun. If you're a champ that relies on abilities to do anything, and then you're not allowed to use any abilities, the game because extremely lame.
I main Twitch. I know how hard it is to be out of mana and have a small mana pool. I imagine it being somewhat closer to Expunge, a huge nuke that shuts the enemy down/drives them out of lane/forces them to pop off a summoner spell to escape.
However, as you said, attacking the resource is a bit screwy. Do you have any other/better ideas? Specifically anything which is designed to shut down a mage? The man is already flinging around Silences. I'm wary of just adding another one. I want this to synergise with his other two actives.
Also: E? That's Summoner Spell 2. If I was dedicated to playing out this joke, referencing my superior keyboard layout, I'd say I was confused.


R: Fine, but that's a second skill that is worthless against resourcless/alternate resource champs, which I struggle with

Again, suggestions are great! (Also: There's been at least once where someone used "R" to refer to the ult and I was genuinely confused for a second. "R" is "Recall" in my head. "S" is the Ult. That's why I used Active 1, Active 2, et. cetera in the original document.)

[Reynard]

Guys, This game is all the silly. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2533627/) Like, its absolutely hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Spellpen Annie to stronk. Me and Ryze just ran around insta-gibing people.

[Arbitrarity]

Guys, This game is all the silly. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2533627/) Like, its absolutely hilarious!:smallbiggrin:

Yes. This. Duo Annie/Ryze top lane destroys things.

I say... Lizard Elder/Mercs/Gauntlet/Spirit Visage as core (30% CDR, healing, good defenses all around, solid AD and AOE damage, slow), with Bulwark/Randuins being my first extra choices, maybe GA instead, Cleaver for offense (wow, Ghostblade is still... really bad. This is depressing)

[Silverraptor]

Is the thing recorded in spectator mode? It says it is, but some people say the file doesn't open as spectator. Still new to using lolrecorder, so I may need some help.

[McDouggal]

I'm having the same problem. Then again, I'm testing it in bot games. Since I don't think you can spectate those, that might be the problem.

I'll try some normals and see what happens. And Silverraptor, see if you have the record both option in there. That might be why; you could've uploaded the wrong one.

EDIT: Yep. You can't spectate bots. Played a normal draft pick (which I'll be uploading, btw. It was an 18:45 game.) as jungle Nunu. Waiting on the spectator stream.

EDITEDIT: Less impressive since J4 AFKed at level 6, but I'm still posting it. The 18:45 match. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2534654/)

[toasty]

So guys, based on my experience watching IPL5 and playing 2 games of Top Rengar I'm gonna say its op as all hell and will be nerfed soon.

But until then: Spirit Visage Kindlegem is now a viable build on certain bruisers again. :smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

StephanosRex Strikes again. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9P4trNWxYk&feature=youtu.be)

[Temotei]

Since I got three real-life votes for Jayce, that amounts to 4 v. 3 v. 2 for Jayce, Hec, and Lulu. Hecarim is next, followed by Lulu, then. Thanks, everyone. :smallsmile:

[Math_Mage]

StephanosRex Strikes again. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9P4trNWxYk&feature=youtu.be)

Priceless.

[Nadevoc]

@Thanatos:
Regarding Energy: I was just making sure I understood that it was the same as ninja's energy as opposed to some champ-specific resource.

Oh, glancing over the original concept again, I notice you talk about him using hextech stuff. That seems an odd choice since hextech is a hybrid of magic and tech, from my understanding.

AP -> AD conversion might be balanced with a smaller than 1:1 ratio, though it does have a LOT of edge cases to be checked - AP item effects have been balanced with the assumption they're not available to AD champs unless they go way out of their way for them. Not sure off-hand if any of these could cause issues, but it's possible. Also needs to be decided whether Deathcap has any effect or not (is the 30% added pre-AP conversion?)

The other part of the passive I just think is a big no.
1) I don't think offering Malphite as a counterexample is that valid. Saying, "Look, this champ is poorly designed, too" doesn't really excuse using poor design. Malphite in particular is a very early champion from before Riot learned a few design lessons. It's also notable that he has some secondary scaling from stacking armor, but it's not super impressive (0.3 ratio on one skill). He does shut down auto-attackers pretty hard, but that's a smaller percentage of the champ pool and they can build ArPen to still do *something* to him. You've essentially set out to say, "I want this champ to COMPLETELY HARD COUNTER 50% of champions (AP/magic champions)". That's a HORRIBLE goal, in my opinion.
2) "Well, they can pick up armor pen. Twitch does." Yes, but Twitch is an AD champion. He has armor pen itemization items. There are zero AP armor pen items. There are zero defensive armor pen items. Could they pick up, for example, Last Whisper? Yes. But that's 2300 gold and an item slot that does NOTHING for them except give them some penetration against ONE CHAMPION. AD champs get the penetration on *all* champions, plus 40 AD that they actually use. Yes, mages get that, but they have zero ratios and don't even auto-attack much at all. Also, the items that build into it are literally worthless for mages.
3) The doubled up scaling actually makes him stupidly tanky against AD champs, too. One, because it makes stacking armor and only armor suddenly a completely valid tactic. Two because there are suddenly more big-ticket armor items around. Combine the two and this guy's gonna constantly have 400 resists that apply to all incoming damage. That's, quite frankly, stupid. You can kinda negate the second part by not having a 1:1 ratio, but still... I'm going to pick up Randuin's/Thornmail and GA and laugh as no one can kill me.

As for changing E/R (That's how I think of abilities, so I'm afraid you're gonna have to deal with it :-P).... hrm...

Maybe have E apply a debuff called 'Arcane Lock/Leak' that lasts a few seconds and increases the resource cost of the first ability used by a percentage, or does damage if they cast an ability. There's a bit of burden of knowledge, but proper graphics should help negate that, plus it's not the sort of burden of knowledge that just suddenly kills you. It's something you'll learn during lane and then know about.

For the ultimate... Not sure. I'd have to think for awhile about it.


EDIT: I realize that I'm being very negative here. I hope you understand that it isn't that I'm just trying to tear down your idea. It's that I see some very problematic elements in the core of the champion and I'm hoping to show/explain the problems so that you can take the lessons and move forward with either a rework or future ideas.

[PersonMan]

Priceless.

I especially loved the world hunger one. Absolutely wonderful.

Really, some of those are so good I would have to think long and hard about reporting someone for that, just because of the sheer grace with which they bring across their...criticism.

[Eldariel]

Holy ****.

IPL5 Spoilers:
Fnatic is on goddamn fire right now! Sure they lost to WE in Group Stage but that was close and that was a BO1. They just 2-0d TPA from behind each game, especially with those Blitz Grabs. The season 1 champs are back!

[Duos]

@Thanatos:
Regarding Energy: I was just making sure I understood that it was the same as ninja's energy as opposed to some champ-specific resource.

Oh, glancing over the original concept again, I notice you talk about him using hextech stuff. That seems an odd choice since hextech is a hybrid of magic and tech, from my understanding.

AP -> AD conversion might be balanced with a smaller than 1:1 ratio, though it does have a LOT of edge cases to be checked - AP item effects have been balanced with the assumption they're not available to AD champs unless they go way out of their way for them. Not sure off-hand if any of these could cause issues, but it's possible. Also needs to be decided whether Deathcap has any effect or not (is the 30% added pre-AP conversion?)

The other part of the passive I just think is a big no.
1) I don't think offering Malphite as a counterexample is that valid. Saying, "Look, this champ is poorly designed, too" doesn't really excuse using poor design. Malphite in particular is a very early champion from before Riot learned a few design lessons. It's also notable that he has some secondary scaling from stacking armor, but it's not super impressive (0.3 ratio on one skill). He does shut down auto-attackers pretty hard, but that's a smaller percentage of the champ pool and they can build ArPen to still do *something* to him. You've essentially set out to say, "I want this champ to COMPLETELY HARD COUNTER 50% of champions (AP/magic champions)". That's a HORRIBLE goal, in my opinion.
2) "Well, they can pick up armor pen. Twitch does." Yes, but Twitch is an AD champion. He has armor pen itemization items. There are zero AP armor pen items. There are zero defensive armor pen items. Could they pick up, for example, Last Whisper? Yes. But that's 2300 gold and an item slot that does NOTHING for them except give them some penetration against ONE CHAMPION. AD champs get the penetration on *all* champions, plus 40 AD that they actually use. Yes, mages get that, but they have zero ratios and don't even auto-attack much at all. Also, the items that build into it are literally worthless for mages.
3) The doubled up scaling actually makes him stupidly tanky against AD champs, too. One, because it makes stacking armor and only armor suddenly a completely valid tactic. Two because there are suddenly more big-ticket armor items around. Combine the two and this guy's gonna constantly have 400 resists that apply to all incoming damage. That's, quite frankly, stupid. You can kinda negate the second part by not having a 1:1 ratio, but still... I'm going to pick up Randuin's/Thornmail and GA and laugh as no one can kill me.

As for changing E/R (That's how I think of abilities, so I'm afraid you're gonna have to deal with it :-P).... hrm...

Maybe have E apply a debuff called 'Arcane Lock/Leak' that lasts a few seconds and increases the resource cost of the first ability used by a percentage, or does damage if they cast an ability. There's a bit of burden of knowledge, but proper graphics should help negate that, plus it's not the sort of burden of knowledge that just suddenly kills you. It's something you'll learn during lane and then know about.

For the ultimate... Not sure. I'd have to think for awhile about it.


EDIT: I realize that I'm being very negative here. I hope you understand that it isn't that I'm just trying to tear down your idea. It's that I see some very problematic elements in the core of the champion and I'm hoping to show/explain the problems so that you can take the lessons and move forward with either a rework or future ideas.

If you have the time, Nadevoc, I would appreciate it if you could browse through the folder of concepts I posted. Your feedback is highly technical, which I find to be immensely useful. Since I do not have all the champs and items memorized and I only really took a cursory glance at other champs to make sure base stats were ok, a more critical, technical eye would be of great help.:smallsmile:

[Thanatos 51-50]

More nattering on about the Magebane:


Regarding Energy: I was just making sure I understood that it was the same as ninja's energy as opposed to some champ-specific resource.
Right on.


Oh, glancing over the original concept again, I notice you talk about him using hextech stuff. That seems an odd choice since hextech is a hybrid of magic and tech, from my understanding.
Some of the basic ideas in my head have him as a cyborg. I've been unable to note any cyborg-level technology being extant that isn't hextech. Obviously, this is a writing issue here on my end and I admit, I was using hextech as a convenient shorthand. You're right to call me out on it.


AP -> AD conversion might be balanced with a smaller than 1:1 ratio, though it does have a LOT of edge cases to be checked - AP item effects have been balanced with the assumption they're not available to AD champs unless they go way out of their way for them. Not sure off-hand if any of these could cause issues, but it's possible. Also needs to be decided whether Deathcap has any effect or not (is the 30% added pre-AP conversion?)

The other part of the passive I just think is a big no.
1) I don't think offering Malphite as a counterexample is that valid. Saying, "Look, this champ is poorly designed, too" doesn't really excuse using poor design. Malphite in particular is a very early champion from before Riot learned a few design lessons. It's also notable that he has some secondary scaling from stacking armor, but it's not super impressive (0.3 ratio on one skill). He does shut down auto-attackers pretty hard, but that's a smaller percentage of the champ pool and they can build ArPen to still do *something* to him. You've essentially set out to say, "I want this champ to COMPLETELY HARD COUNTER 50% of champions (AP/magic champions)". That's a HORRIBLE goal, in my opinion.
2) "Well, they can pick up armor pen. Twitch does." Yes, but Twitch is an AD champion. He has armor pen itemization items. There are zero AP armor pen items. There are zero defensive armor pen items. Could they pick up, for example, Last Whisper? Yes. But that's 2300 gold and an item slot that does NOTHING for them except give them some penetration against ONE CHAMPION. AD champs get the penetration on *all* champions, plus 40 AD that they actually use. Yes, mages get that, but they have zero ratios and don't even auto-attack much at all. Also, the items that build into it are literally worthless for mages.
3) The doubled up scaling actually makes him stupidly tanky against AD champs, too. One, because it makes stacking armor and only armor suddenly a completely valid tactic. Two because there are suddenly more big-ticket armor items around. Combine the two and this guy's gonna constantly have 400 resists that apply to all incoming damage. That's, quite frankly, stupid. You can kinda negate the second part by not having a 1:1 ratio, but still... I'm going to pick up Randuin's/Thornmail and GA and laugh as no one can kill me.
Entire point is valid. Let's add "Rework the passive" onto our Brainstorm List. How do we give him a passive that plays off the "Walking anti-magic/mage-hater/mage-hunter" fluff? Let me throw down the prior incarnation of his passive:
"Discipline of Hatred: Damian deals bonus physical damage on all attacks based on his opponent's AP and SpellPen, the higher the AP+SpellPen, the more damage dealt."


As for changing E/R (That's how I think of abilities, so I'm afraid you're gonna have to deal with it :-P).... hrm...

Maybe have E apply a debuff called 'Arcane Lock/Leak' that lasts a few seconds and increases the resource cost of the first ability used by a percentage, or does damage if they cast an ability. There's a bit of burden of knowledge, but proper graphics should help negate that, plus it's not the sort of burden of knowledge that just suddenly kills you. It's something you'll learn during lane and then know about.
... I quite like it. Especially the damage variant. Works against alt-resources, and I want him to be a glass cannon (because that's a playstyle I both understand and love, personally)


For the ultimate... Not sure. I'd have to think for awhile about it.
I really like the PBAoE idea (It's one a friend gave me) that pops off to deal more damage after bursty champions have bursted and are trying to not die before they can unleash a second salvo. I think our main issue here is taking on resourceless/alt. resource champions, right? Would the primary issue be wording?
"... deals damage based on the amount of missing resource the enemy champion has. Cooldown-only champions take damage based on how much of their ability cooldown is remaining."
This part Intentionally Outside of Spoiler:


EDIT: I realize that I'm being very negative here. I hope you understand that it isn't that I'm just trying to tear down your idea. It's that I see some very problematic elements in the core of the champion and I'm hoping to show/explain the problems so that you can take the lessons and move forward with either a rework or future ideas.

Pfffft. I encourage people to insult/belitte me/tear me down. No need to apologize for literally any insult anybody may hurl my way, intentionally, unintentionally, in the past or in the future, no matter who you are. If my character or my work haven't been attacked in a given day, well... it's like Christmas without the presents, to steal a cliché.

[Renegade Paladin]

I especially loved the world hunger one. Absolutely wonderful.

Really, some of those are so good I would have to think long and hard about reporting someone for that, just because of the sheer grace with which they bring across their...criticism.
Yeah, there's very few of those I would report as opposed to laughing hysterically at and in some cases honoring the guy after. :smallbiggrin:

"But at least she didn't die from the wraith camp." Priceless. :smallamused:

[Ashen Lilies]

Damn. Just how do you lane against a Mordekaiser? I was just midding against one as Lux and I had absolutely no idea how to handle him. Tips?

[McDouggal]

Don't stack health? I haven't played against a Morde for a long time.

[Nadevoc]

Damn. Just how do you lane against a Mordekaiser? I was just midding against one as Lux and I had absolutely no idea how to handle him. Tips?

One: Avoid fighting him with no allies or minions around. If there's only one target, his Q *CRUSHES* you.
Two: He's going to farm out your minion wave and generate a full shield. Don't hit him then. Hit him just before the minion waves clash, when his shield has decayed as much as possible. If you hit him when he has a shield up or targets in range, you'll just be burning down the shield that he can get back no problem.
Three: Ganks. Mordekaiser naturally pushes really hard, and he has no CC or mobility moves. These things combine make him very vulnerable to ganks. This is of course your jungler not you, but try to take advantage of this to make the most of opportunities; don't blow all your minions or hang out with low hp or you won't be able to help. Stuff like that.



@Thanatos:
That passive seems much more reasonable. The ratio would need a bunch of tinkering to nail down, and it would probably do almost nothing early on when enemies don't have that much AP/SpellPen, but still gives him a nice bonus against APs especially late game. So, maybe 10% of target's AP. At level 1 it's only 1-2 bonus damage, but late game it can scale up to 40-60 extra damage which is a pretty darn hefty bonus.

I considered the effect based on missing resources, but it has a number of issues:
1) Your idea for CD-only champs works, but is really clunky, difficult to wrap your head around, and obviously forced
2) What about champs like Rengar? He could easily have zero fury when this goes off, and it feels bad that he's randomly either punished really hard or not at all based on where in his fury rotation he is
3) It actually hurts mana champs the least by far. Energy champs are designed to blow all their resource, then have it back soon, so they'll probably have very low resources when it goes off. CD champs also front-load all their abilities and put them on CD. But mana champs? Late game, they often have huge mana pools that they don't have to worry about; they could easily be at half or 3/4 mana at the END of a fight, let alone towards the beginning of a fight when you probably want to use this (especially to take advantage of the silence)...

I'll let you know if I come up with an ultimate I think fits with the theme.

@Duos:

Eh, my feedback isn't THAT technical; in fact, I actually tend to just completely ignore base stats when looking over champ suggestions. They're cool to have and show you put some thought into the champ, but they don't really matter and are 100% the last thing to be finalized, I'm pretty sure.

Also, fair warning, my critiques tend to be pretty negative. I tend to concentrate on what I think needs to be fixed. So fair warning there. Anyhow, a quick glance...

Baradyne, the Living Fortress
Overall, seems like a pretty decent tank. I really worry about his early game, though; I just don't know where he'd manage to fit in a comp before teamfight stage. I hate trying to shove everything into the meta, but...
Solo Lane: All his AoE utility goes to waste. He's melee with no sustain, so just passive farming won't work in most matchups. I don't really see him being able to harass or bully people out of lanes, either. Seems like a weak solo laner.
Jungle: Doesn't really have a good way to clear the minions at any speed. His Q gives some AoE, but the damage will probably need to be on the low end and/or the CD high in order to counter the strong utility it offers. W and E or basically utility, so not really helpful here. He'll be a pretty decent ganker, but I think he'll fall really far behind on farm, especially in S3 jungle. Unless there are always good gank opportunities, I feel like he'll struggle in the jungle.
Duo Lane: As I realize you only gave him scaling on one move, I realize you probably meant for him to be support. He does give some survivability and some peel, which is good here. I feel like he would struggle to engage, though, since his CC is short range and he doesn't have a gap closer outside a somewhat small MS boost. I'm pretty bad with the aggressive melee supports like Leona, though, so he might fit here. Not sure.

Passive: Switch it to +X/X armor/MR, I think. Riot's been swapping out % damage reduction moves for armor/MR bonuses.

Ultimate: A cool ability. I've mused over this type of ability before, and I'd suggest making it so that the damage diverted is still calculated using the target's armor/MR, then that amount dealt to Baradyne as true damage. Bara's essentially intentionally putting himself in harm's way, so there's an in-lore explanation for it being (probably) more effective against him. And... I forget why I decided it was better design, which makes it hard to really argue for/suggest it >.> I'll leave it here anyhow

Barnabus, the Roughhouser
I like the passive. Fits the theme, makes potential kiting a bit less painful, and means ranged champs have to make a difficult choice when trying to help out a friend: stay back where I'm safer, or move in for full damage and risk becoming a target. The tricky part is going to be on the graphic designers; I think with something like this, it's important that opponents have some sort of indication to tip them off. Both for people who haven't dealt with him before, and so those that do know his passive so they know whether they're close enough or not (otherwise it'll really suck for the dude standing 401 units away and wondering why you're so tanky).

Wallop: Change the passive to give Tenacity. There's a mechanic in the game to handle exactly this, so we should be using this. It makes sure it's consistent with stacking and execution. Seems minor and a super simple wording fix, but I feel the need to point it out.

Flying Tackle: Why is this magic damage? Seems like thematically it should be physical, and all his other damage is physical, too. Making this magic means that it'll end up really getting hurt by MR since he won't have any MPen.

Flying Piledriver: Is this like a knockup where they're both targettable and everything, or more like Panth's ult where they're untargettable during the jump? Kinda leaning towards the latter in my mind, except I'm not sure how I feel about making an enemy untargettable (and thus possibly foiling ally abilties. If you accidentally save him from Veigar's ult, there will be anger.) I think the untargettable thing works, and it'll feel a bit more ultimate and prevent the super lame feeling of, "Barnabus uses ultimate! Taric uses Dazzle! It's super effective! Barnabus ultimate fizzles!" I also kinda want this to have a secondary targetting effect, kinda like Fizz's trollpole. If you don't target anything, you land where you went up; otherwise, you can choose to land up to like 500 units away (1.5 second delay still applies).

Jedah, the Geometer
I really like this idea. The way I'm reading this, abilities drop a glyph for each target hit; if they don't hit anything, they don't drop anything. Is this accurate?

Might need to limit the healing he gets from multiple glyphs since he should be able to easily hit 4+ minions with Q and 3+ with W. Essentially, to prevent that from being an abuse case you'll have to make it not do much when you can't hit a bunch. Seems better to do some sort of dimishing returns.

Exponentiate is really, really strong. I want to say it should only increase damage from ALL sources by a much smaller amount; maybe 5% from all sources, up to 20% for him or something. Otherwise he just becomes absurd paired with anyone with any burst. Consider that Vlad's ult only increases damage by 12%. Sure, it's AoE, but still... it's an ultimate. And it's noted as being quite powerful. I also probably wouldn't put any scaling on the glyph's CD, but I dunno there. 0.01 AP scaling probably isn't a problem. One thing to note: when does the glyph drop? When the spell is cast, or when it finishes?

The ultimate is REALLY powerful when you realize that all allies will automatically pick up their glyph. Strong damage, massive healing, and a second of invulnerability in a sizable AoE is probably too much, in my opinion.

Actually, the ult makes me think each ability only drops one glyph. But then where do they drop for the line skillshots? The beginning? Middle? End? First target hit? I think I prefer the idea of dropping multiple glyphs to reward hitting more targets, and the stats chosen for Q and W won't really be abusive if someone manages to grab a bunch, I don't think. Maybe make it only enemy targets hit drop glyphs. That won't affect anything but the ultimate, and might bring it in line.

[LordShotGun]

Anyone else having horrible horrible lag when watching IPLLOL? Even in 240p I am stuttering badly.

[toasty]

Anyone else having horrible horrible lag when watching IPLLOL? Even in 240p I am stuttering badly.

Yeah, I had that the entire day.

http://www.ign.com/ipl

Only has the mainstream, but streams in 720p without stutter.

[Godskook]

One: Avoid fighting him with no allies or minions around. If there's only one target, his Q *CRUSHES* you.

That's actually contrary to how you should be fighting Morde. Sure, his Q does more damage to solitary targets, but he has exactly one way to deliver that, and its high-cost(flash). Standing outside his auto-range(and if you're the ADC late-game, his flash+melee range) is an easier and stronger plan than taking his Siphons while standing in your own minion wave. The bigger issue is his shield generation capabilities, which are stronger if he can AoE your minions and/or allies. Mordekaiser is at his weakest against a ranged foe in open river. Having full teams jump into his AoE range is exactly what he wants, since his shield becomes massive.

[LordShotGun]

Yeah, I had that the entire day.

http://www.ign.com/ipl

Only has the mainstream, but streams in 720p without stutter.

No stutter but the video and audio are very badly synced.

[Forrestfire]

Whoever was the first person to cheer at ward kills needs a medal.

Especially now that the commentators are getting into it, too, and giving play-by-plays of ward kills.

"The ward is trying its best to get away! It's down to one health, will it make it? No!" :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[Psyborg]

I considered the effect based on missing resources, but it has a number of issues:
1) Your idea for CD-only champs works, but is really clunky, difficult to wrap your head around, and obviously forced
2) What about champs like Rengar? He could easily have zero fury when this goes off, and it feels bad that he's randomly either punished really hard or not at all based on where in his fury rotation he is
3) It actually hurts mana champs the least by far. Energy champs are designed to blow all their resource, then have it back soon, so they'll probably have very low resources when it goes off. CD champs also front-load all their abilities and put them on CD. But mana champs? Late game, they often have huge mana pools that they don't have to worry about; they could easily be at half or 3/4 mana at the END of a fight, let alone towards the beginning of a fight when you probably want to use this (especially to take advantage of the silence)...

I'll let you know if I come up with an ultimate I think fits with the theme.

Suggestion A: Deals (X damage + Y ratio) damage, increased by (Z%) for each enemy ability that's on cooldown, and silences for (t) seconds.
Suggestion B: Deals (X damage + Y ratio) damage, increased by (Z%) for each ability the target has used in the last (N) seconds, and silences for (t) seconds.
Suggestion C: Deals (X damage + Y ratio) damage, and silences for 1 second + 0.75 seconds per ability used in the last (N) seconds, [optional:] to a maximum of (Q) seconds.
Suggestion D: Deals (X damage + Y ratio) damage, and silences for (t) seconds. This ability's cooldown is reduced by (Z%) of the base cooldown amount for each ability the target has used in the last (N) seconds.
Suggestion E: Deals (X damage + Y ratio) damage. Any of the target's abilities that are currently on cooldown have their cooldown remaining increased by (t) seconds.

In any case, champions with multiple passives and/or toggles will be less vulnerable, and Karthus/Cass/Ryze/Lee are kinda boned, but whatever.

[toasty]

No stutter but the video and audio are very badly synced.

I don't have those problems. Strange.

[Math_Mage]

So, hands up if you expected CLG.NA to make it farther in the tournament than TSM. Anyone? Of course, that's largely down to bracketing luck; TSM fielded probably the only truly formidable team that started in loser's bracket (Blaze), while CLG fielded probably the only team in winner's bracket they had a good chance of beating (Curse.EU).

[McDouggal]

Ever have a game where you just want to reach through the internet and strangle the idiot on the other side?

Graves (who I'm supporting with Lux) goes 10/0/2 during laning. Largely due to my effort (he only got 1 kill when I didn't feed it right to him). He then proceeds to quickdraw into the middle of each teamfight and die, losing us the game. We kept telling him to use quickdraw to escape/reposition, but he WOULDN'T LISTEN.

[Thrawn183]

Holy ****.

IPL5 Spoilers:
Fnatic is on goddamn fire right now! Sure they lost to WE in Group Stage but that was close and that was a BO1. They just 2-0d TPA from behind each game, especially with those Blitz Grabs. The season 1 champs are back!


I was most impressed with Misaya's TF play, I think. They didn't even get to use TF's ult until the mid game and still crushed that game.

[TFT]

So I just played a game top as olaf. Solo queue ranked about 1450. I couldn't carry hard enough.

You read that right, I was carrying.

http://i.imgur.com/XpFdJ.jpg

Beat the irel top lane, proceeded to penta in the first teamfight I was in (Btw, first penta ever, how the heck did I manage to get it in toplane?). The problem was that the irel hec diana combo just wrecked through my team faster then I could kill. In retrospect I should have built a bit more damage and played a teamfight or two a little differently. But still.

I apparently can kind of play toplane. Above 1300, unlike some people may have thought. I just can't carry at 1400. :smalltongue:

Edit: Okay, fine, it looks like it was an unofficial penta kill because it is only showing quadra in my stats :smallfrown:. It was totally a penta though.

[Thrawn183]

Your Caitlyn really needed a last whisper.

[Math_Mage]

Your Caitlyn really needed a last whisper.

More like that Udyr needed to be a Maokai. I guarantee you he was utterly useless past 25 minutes. More peeling for Cait would have freed her up to build damage instead of the GA. :smalltongue:

[TFT]

More like that Udyr needed to be a Maokai. I guarantee you he was utterly useless past 25 minutes. More peeling for Cait would have freed her up to build damage instead of the GA. :smalltongue:

Ding ding ding this man has the answer. And he didn't do too much before 25 minutes either. :smalltongue:

[dgnslyr]

You don't need to build damage when you're Olaf. I would have skipped Mallet altogether, because it offers Olaf very little. He gets some HP and AD which is nice, but he doesn't need the slow-procs when he can throw axes as fast as he can pick them up. I'd have gotten a GA, because why not, and maybe a FoN for a last item? But I cry a little whenever I see Olaf with a Mallet.

[Math_Mage]

Yeah, Olaf is one of the few champions that doesn't really want to build a Phage in lane, which really lessens the need for Mallet later on.

The other thing to note is that Olaf is going to have a hell of a time either blowing up Ezreal or locking multiple carries out of the fight, because Ez is mobile enough to run away, Diana is mobile enough to get into the thick of things, and Hec/Irelia eventually get tanky enough to work around Olaf. I might have played Jax in this situation.

[9mm]

BREAK THEIR RANKS

My love of ponies is presently unsurpassed.

His S3 jungle will probably be kinda weak, if anything, but I agree that Spirit of the Lizard Elder+Rampage will be SO GOOD.

Iceborn Gauntlet and new Spirit Visage also look sick for him, though Iceborn Gauntlet vs Trinity Force is a bit of a tricky comparison. While he'll do less sustained autoattack damage with the Gauntlet, I suspect the CDR, armor, and more consistent slow are better. Depends on how you're doing, I guess.

There is no comparison, Iceborn Gauntlet is strictly better. Now I admit I REAAALLY dislike triforce rush on Pony, but the ability to just go glacial -> gauntlet is so much better then grabbing a triforce as a 4th through 6th item. This is assuming of course I don't end up still needing to grab frozen heart.

In other news, on a whim I took a harder look at varus, and can't help but wonder if he'd been a caster until the last few weeks of development. as an ap ratio on all four skills would turn him into a ASAP carry who wouldn't feel terrible for using his Q, instead of an AD carry who feels bad for using his skills at all during a teamfight. That said, +2% per 100 and a 1:1 ult makes me want to try ASAP Varus anyway.

[toasty]

I was most impressed with Misaya's TF play, I think. They didn't even get to use TF's ult until the mid game and still crushed that game.

Yeah, Misaya TF is kinda amazing for that. It was an amazing game to watch.


So, hands up if you expected CLG.NA to make it farther in the tournament than TSM. Anyone? Of course, that's largely down to bracketing luck; TSM fielded probably the only truly formidable team that started in loser's bracket (Blaze), while CLG fielded probably the only team in winner's bracket they had a good chance of beating (Curse.EU).

Yeah I wasn't surprised. TSM didn't have the greatest bracket but that's not an excuse. They are now 0-9 vs. AZB and 0-11 vs Azubu Teams in general. Gotta be depressing for them. Its funny because they're still... good... they're just not on the level of Asian Teams.

[TFT]

Yeah, Olaf is one of the few champions that doesn't really want to build a Phage in lane, which really lessens the need for Mallet later on.

The other thing to note is that Olaf is going to have a hell of a time either blowing up Ezreal or locking multiple carries out of the fight, because Ez is mobile enough to run away, Diana is mobile enough to get into the thick of things, and Hec/Irelia eventually get tanky enough to work around Olaf. I might have played Jax in this situation.

Honestly I build phage because I don't want to build an item like fh yet but feel silly building damage, so it's kind of my weird self compromise. I tend to build double gp10 --> phage --> mallet --> tanky items which I know isn't quite right but works in the games I'm playing at least. I was also 2nd pick that game and the only champs we knew about were hec and irel. Finally, I still need to pick up jax, though I'm assuming it wouldn't be hard. Just need to add it to the list.


Also, new goal? Hit 1650 without any support whatsoever. That means probably a lot of losses in the near future, but I'll feel better about myself as a player when I accomplish it. :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

Yeah I wasn't surprised. TSM didn't have the greatest bracket but that's not an excuse. They are now 0-9 vs. AZB and 0-11 vs Azubu Teams in general. Gotta be depressing for them. Its funny because they're still... good... they're just not on the level of Asian Teams.

The funny part is how those games went. Everything was even. TSM had some traction and they were getting things done. Then one mistake and poof.
G1 it was Regi getting pulled with Azubu actually present and blown up followed by 5-0 Ace and Baron.

G2 it was TSM pulling back to take the blue giving Azubu position in front of the Dragon, trying to move back to challenge it and getting initiated upon over the wall and crushed especially since Morgana hadn't finished her Zhonya.

[Godskook]

More like that Udyr needed to be a Maokai. I guarantee you he was utterly useless past 25 minutes. More peeling for Cait would have freed her up to build damage instead of the GA. :smalltongue:

It looks like that Udyr was building Black Cleaver. On Udyr. Bloodthirster is excusable if you're stomping as Udyr(tiger's AD ratio is really good), but he wasn't, and the jungle really doesn't support the gold to build a BFsword item on a jungler, especially after converting one of his Gp5s into an item. If he had gotten a Mallet instead of buying Cleaver parts or converting his HoG, he would've actually been able to peel for Caitlyn about as well as Maokai(depends on how you value better CDs over the immediacy of a gap-closer).

[toasty]

It looks like that Udyr was building Black Cleaver. On Udyr. Bloodthirster is excusable if you're stomping as Udyr(tiger's AD ratio is really good), but he wasn't, and the jungle really doesn't support the gold to build a BFsword item on a jungler, especially after converting one of his Gp5s into an item. If he had gotten a Mallet instead of buying Cleaver parts or converting his HoG, he would've actually been able to peel for Caitlyn about as well as Maokai(depends on how you value better CDs over the immediacy of a gap-closer).

BT is not excuseable. Udyr will never be close enough to an ADC to explode them with BT because Udyr gets kited. Udyr is best played as a defensive peeler. Tank/CDR means you can spam your spells and stun people and be an ******* in general.

Furthermore, Wits End or even Triforce if you MUST build carry, are more useful for Udyr as they give him more valuable stats. Tiger Udyr is overrated, even in lane (if I laned Udyr today I'd start Q, max W and 2nd focus R). BT is only good as a gimick to get massive Q procs, which is really hard to pull off. Triforce on the other hand makes you a better peeler (more move speed and a slow) and Sheen is just incredible on a hero who is constantly spamming spells.

The reason AD carries built IE and such is because they don't have to cast their spells to do damage. They also are ranged so they can kite more safely. However, Udyr is neither ranged nor does he have useless damage spells. Udyr is melee, kiteable, and relies on his R/Q to deal damage.

[Thrawn183]

Games are back on at IPL 5.

[toasty]

Stanley with nonstandard builds every game. Double Doran's Blade Shen? :smallbiggrin:

[McDouggal]

So, yeah, my first YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klD8QcPNPMM)is up. I find it a rather funny thing.

It's less than a minute. Please watch it :pleadingface:

[PersonMan]

At first I thought that the voice was someone else speaking in the background. Only when I heard "...thanks for watching and have a nice day" did I realize it was you.

Is it just me, or are the related videos quite odd? It might just be what I've been watching earlier today, though.

[McDouggal]

Nope, they're quite odd.

[ex cathedra]

Fnatic vs CLG.NA will be live shortly on stream 2 (http://www.twitch.tv/ipllol2).

The Crs vs Crs sets were, uhh, definitely interesting. :smalltongue:

[McDouggal]

Working with Camtasia to get better voice. Will reupload when I do.

EDIT: Video is done. Old one is taken down; link in the post where the previous one was posted is redone and correct.

[Silverraptor]

So yeah, my lolreplay is weird. It saves in spectator mode random games while the rest it does the old way. I have it set as "Save all games as Specmode", but it doesn't do all my games.:smallsigh:

[Mephit]

Whoever was the first person to cheer at ward kills needs a medal.

Especially now that the commentators are getting into it, too, and giving play-by-plays of ward kills.

"The ward is trying its best to get away! It's down to one health, will it make it? No!" :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

That actually carried over from the World Championships, where CLG.EU and WE's matches (yeah, the same playing right now :smalltongue: ) took half a day because A) Internet issues destroyed 3 games and B) CLG.EU takes forever to finish games. The final game had about 25 minutes of baron dance where the most eventful thing to happen was teams clearing out eachothers wards. So the crowd started cheering for ward kills.

I think the final number was about 80+ wards killed between the two teams.

[ex cathedra]

I find it really annoying that people are still doing it, though. It's not so much funny at this point as it is embarrassing.

[sonofzeal]

I find it really annoying that people are still doing it, though. It's not so much funny at this point as it is embarrassing.
I don't know, I think it's a lighthearted, almost whimsical thing now. And I'm always in more favor of more whimsy. Every community needs its little nonsensical traditions and in-jokes.

[Thrawn183]

This WE vs CLG.EU game is great.

[ex cathedra]

I don't know, I think it's a lighthearted, almost whimsical thing now. And I'm always in more favor of more whimsy. Every community needs its little nonsensical traditions and in-jokes.

I don't really have a problem with in-jokes, but I think they're best in moderation and hearing ward kills dozens of times a game really grinds on after a while.

[Thrawn183]

I don't really have a problem with in-jokes, but I think they're best in moderation and hearing ward kills dozens of times a game really grinds on after a while.

I don't mind in that the break up a lot of the monotony of delay tactics. It makes watching the games more like watching a sports event.

[Forrestfire]

Wow, that game was amazing to watch. So much tension for both teams :smalleek::smallbiggrin:

[PersonMan]

I don't mind in that the break up a lot of the monotony of delay tactics. It makes watching the games more like watching a sports event.

Aye. It also gives something to listen to while the camera is following a jungler taking wraiths, then finding an enemy ward and killing it.

[McDouggal]

So, it turns out that Zhonya's Hourglass interrupts Absolute Zero.

FUUUUUUUUUUUU!

(was getting wasted by stuns/silences whenever I tried to channel it, and remebering that it doesn't interrupt Morg ult, went and built it. Well, position perfectly, ult, hourglass stops the ult.)

[ZeroNumerous]

Has Captain Jack forgotten how to get away, or is Azubu Blaze just making bad decisions?

@Ward Cheers: It's more interesting than just "Oh, another ward kill".

EDIT:
(was getting wasted by stuns/silences whenever I tried to channel it, and remebering that it doesn't interrupt Morg ult, went and built it. Well, position perfectly, ult, hourglass stops the ult.)

It doesn't interrupt Morg ulti because Morg ulti isn't channeled.

[Eldariel]

Has Captain Jack forgotten how to get away, or is Azubu Blaze just making bad decisions?

They don't know how to deal with Evelynn. Stands to reason they've never faced Alex Ich Eve. I'm seeing a ban G2.

[Litewarior]

I saw Froggen playing Anivia in IPL, and he was dominating without blue buff or any mana items. Does anyone have any tips? Whenever I play Anivia, I seem to press R or Q and immediately run out of mana.

[Eldariel]

I saw Froggen playing Anivia in IPL, and he was dominating without blue buff or any mana items. Does anyone have any tips? Whenever I play Anivia, I seem to press R or Q and immediately run out of mana.

R eats mana like hell; don't use spells when not necessary if you don't have blue. You absolutely want Tear or two mana items without blue. Don't try to push aggressively unless you're about to base. Use Q to push over R; it's generally more economical if you can afford the wait. Other than that, play normal, roam, use autos, hit your Qs, use short ulti bursts to proc Es outside teamfights. It's really just in the mana management.

[toasty]

Scarra has said on stream that after the Eve/DFG nerfs Eve isn't easy to play anymore, yet both Alex Ich and Misaya have used Eve to great success at IPL5. Is that because the enemy teams didn't know how to "handle" a hero like Eve, who punishes misplays a lot harder than many heroes, or is it because they're just really good at Eve? Or both?

Also: HOLY ****ING **** WORLD ELITE IS AMAZING THAT CLG.EU v WE 2nd game.

Actually in general, I'm really glad we have these big international LANs now. I remember World Elite from last year's IEM in China and I was so surprised they won the finals v CLG. It seems strange, but I find the chinese teams (WE and iG) are my favorite at this point. I have no attachment to China whatsoever, and don't even want to visit, but for some reason at this point I'd say my favorite teams are iG, WE and Crs/CLG.Prime. I really enjoy watching old school teams like Fnatic and SK, who have been around forever, and I obviously follow all the NA teams respect the top 4 (Crs, CLG, Dig, TSM), but I just... enjoy watching the Chinese.

[Qwertystop]

I usually go Boots-3, Catalyst, Chalice, RoA, Grail, then defenses. Do you think switching the Catalyst/RoA for a Tear/AA Staff would work better? I typically manage to get blue and keep it.

EDIT: This is as Anivia.

[Eldariel]

Scarra has said on stream that after the Eve/DFG nerfs Eve isn't easy to play anymore, yet both Alex Ich and Misaya have used Eve to great success at IPL5. Is that because the enemy teams didn't know how to "handle" a hero like Eve, who punishes misplays a lot harder than many heroes, or is it because they're just really good at Eve? Or both?

Really good. Tho enemy team being inexperienced against Eve also helps.


I usually go Boots-3, Catalyst, Chalice, RoA, Grail, then defenses. Do you think switching the Catalyst/RoA for a Tear/AA Staff would work better? I typically manage to get blue and keep it.

EDIT: This is as Anivia.

That build is fine. If you get blue it's doubly fine; RoA's 700 Health goes a long way towards making you unkillable and Catalyst trounces Tear on lane. AA Staff is for skipping Grail or when you really absolutely must not run out of mana without blue.

[Joran]

That was the earliest snowball I've seen. TPA vs Curse.NA. Voyboy gets donated Blue as Elise and TPA sends Caitlyn/Nunu top. Voyboy walks up river into the brush and a Caitlyn trap. Caitlyn gets first blood TPA sends their jungle up top and gets the tower in under 4 minutes. They swap bottom, take out the bottom tower, then take dragon and are up by 3-4 K. One minor mistake by Voyboy basically lost the game.

[ZeroNumerous]

Is that because the enemy teams didn't know how to "handle" a hero like Eve, who punishes misplays a lot harder than many heroes, or is it because they're just really good at Eve? Or both?

Don't forget that both players had teams following a very basic principle: Nuke one guy. In particular, Alex Ich's sole job was to nuke Captain Jack's face off as soon as he saw Vayne anywhere in a fight.

Recall that he did this with Haunting Guise, Sorc Shoes, and DFG. That's 49 penetration, on top of DFG's 25%~ max HP + Eve's 35%~ max HP nukes, and Jack lacked any MR except for Aegis. He wasn't using Eve/DFG in the standard "NUKE ALL THE THINGS" mode it was used prior. Instead, he was using Eve as a direct counter to a lynchpin player on the opposing team.

[LordShotGun]

Dang, TPA versus CLG.EU. Someone tell me the outcome tommorow later today, I am going to bed.

[ChaosOS]

TPA picked up 2-1 over CLG, coming back from being down game one. Basically yellowpete kept getting behind in CS compared to Bebe and as a result Bebe just tore through CLG faster than yellowpete could through TPA, especially since neither team had assassins (Rengar doesn't count with the health stack build). CLG game 3 went an AOE comp and just couldn't get the grouping that they needed, because either snoopeh on mumu and wickd on rumble would get bursted down before they could blow their ults or their ults didn't hit enough people.

[Renegade Paladin]

I played Garen.
Other guy played Miss Fortune.

I went 10/4/3
Miss Fortune went 10/12/1

Guy playing Warwick went AFK three minutes in, so we were 4v5.

Miss Fortune's natural reaction? Spam "NOOB GAREN" ten or twelve times in post-game chat. :smallsigh:

[TheShrike]

So, 5 tank teams are pretty silly. Played one last night, ours was Volibear top, Cho mid, Mundo jungle and Blitz/Leona bottom lane. I was the Mundo, and first of all 60+ hp regen per second (before Baron buff) is really fun, and so is taking so long to kill that you kite the enemies from your inner mid tower, to Baron, to their Blue (they were Blue side) and then back to your tower for your team to help and managing to get off three (3!) ults during the chase. Wtf Mundo, why so tanky?

Also, Singed was both the most annoying and most useless character on the enemy team. He made it annoying to get to the real damage dealers (Varus/Kha'Zix) but once they died he did nothing, though we could never kill him. I actually healed faster than his poison did damage to me, it was silly.

EDIT: It was a fairly weak teamcomp (especially bottom lane) but we decided as a team that we wanted to be really tanky, not necessarily bruisery. We thus decided that Jarvan/Lee Sin/Irelia/Jax etc weren't Kosher, and tried to work from there. Mundo cleavers OP.

[Arbitrarity]

So, 5 tank teams are pretty silly. Played one last night, ours was Volibear top, Cho mid, Mundo jungle and Blitz/Leona bottom lane. I was the Mundo, and first of all 60+ hp regen per second (before Baron buff) is really fun, and so is taking so long to kill that you kite the enemies from your inner mid tower, to Baron, to their Blue (they were Blue side) and then back to your tower for your team to help and managing to get off three (3!) ults during the chase. Wtf Mundo, why so tanky?

Also, Singed was both the most annoying and most useless character on the enemy team. He made it annoying to get to the real damage dealers (Varus/Kha'Zix) but once they died he did nothing, though we could never kill him. I actually healed faster than his poison did damage to me, it was silly.

EDIT: It was a fairly weak teamcomp (especially bottom lane) but we decided as a team that we wanted to be really tanky, not necessarily bruisery. We thus decided that Jarvan/Lee Sin/Irelia/Jax etc weren't Kosher, and tried to work from there. Mundo cleavers OP.

Mundo (and Leona, I think) are the masters of non-scaling base damage. Volibear is mostly good in sustained fights with his ult.
To counter in draft, I'd probably want... hm. Probably just Vayne with some good persistent slows, to peel against a team with no real gap-closers. Singed/Anivia would probably be good there. Throw in Trundle (or Amumu, but Trundle pillar too good) and Support Zyra for tons of peel for Vayne.

[Cogwheel]

So, 5 tank teams are pretty silly. Played one last night, ours was Volibear top, Cho mid, Mundo jungle and Blitz/Leona bottom lane. I was the Mundo, and first of all 60+ hp regen per second (before Baron buff) is really fun, and so is taking so long to kill that you kite the enemies from your inner mid tower, to Baron, to their Blue (they were Blue side) and then back to your tower for your team to help and managing to get off three (3!) ults during the chase. Wtf Mundo, why so tanky?

Also, Singed was both the most annoying and most useless character on the enemy team. He made it annoying to get to the real damage dealers (Varus/Kha'Zix) but once they died he did nothing, though we could never kill him. I actually healed faster than his poison did damage to me, it was silly.

EDIT: It was a fairly weak teamcomp (especially bottom lane) but we decided as a team that we wanted to be really tanky, not necessarily bruisery. We thus decided that Jarvan/Lee Sin/Irelia/Jax etc weren't Kosher, and tried to work from there. Mundo cleavers OP.

I would have thrown in Amumu or Singed, myself, unless they're not tanky enough for you. Fun comp, though. One of my favourites is still the Amumu/Rammus kill lane for bottom. Yes, it worked.


Renegade Paladin: Disregard the stupid, you can't avoid it but you can at least avoid thinking about it too much.

Also, I think I added you? Can't recall, it's been a while. Either way, we should play some matches some time. Could use a third Treeline player anyway, if you'd be up for that - a good team for Normals that doesn't have fifty billion matchmaking ELO. As an added bonus, Garen is a monster there.


Not that I'm playing anything until I get this mess of work cleared away, but anyway, thought I'd throw it out there.

[Lix Lorn]

More reviews:
Thanks, will bold replies and try to return the favour soon :)


Selene:
Ok, creepy hivemind vibe. Alright, I like the flavor.

The passive is good. It rewards you for safe play, and it isn't too strong.

The Q is good; I'd imagine it would move about the same speed as Anivia Q for balance reasons. Good flavor, too.
Thanks, and yeah.

W is kind of a no-no; Any snare longer than 2 seconds should not be point and click, it should not have 400 base damage, and it shouldn't grant 50% spellvamp. I'd cut the spellvamp and either spread the damage out over the snare or just frontload it. Either way, I'd heavily reduce the damage.
Guess the snare is too long, lowered. Also wow I did NOT realise how much scaling I'd put on that. Damage majorly lowered. The spellvamp remains, however, since it's the major point of the skill.

E is neat. It's like Vlad's pool, right? I might cut the AoE damage vulnerability; drawbacks on abilities kind of feel bad. I'd also up the CD buy quite a bit, since untargetability is really, really strong.
Both fair.

R is like a hybrid of MAlz ult andCho'gath ult. I can dig it, although the stacks it gives each grant a ton of free stat, I might cut some of them and change the remainder from percentage to flat stats jsut to make them easier to balance.
Fair

Karen:
I'll be honest, her lore reads like bad fanfic. It was kind of painful.
This was effectively the point. :smalltongue:

Passive looks good. It makes her naturally tanky.

Her Q is pretty good, fairly straightforward. A dash on that low of a CD worries me, but Riven is a champion that exists, so eh.

The damage portion of W is fine, but the healing is waaaay to high. I would definitely nerf it.
It's based on Xin's heal. :smalltongue: She's not utterly silly built with AP, though, so it's not QUITE as high. Or shouldn't be.

E is has the same problems that Nika's Q had: It's trying to do too much. It's a blink that snares, blinds, shields, and does damage. Cut three out of five and it will be ok.
It's trying to reference all of her aunts. She has a lot of them. It's rather inconvenient.

R has a HUGE range and a massive pull. The damage AoE is really small compared to the pull AoE, and there's no listed duration, so I'm assuming 2-3 seconds. It's a really high AD ratio, so I might change it a bit. I would change the pull range, decrease it a bit. I'd also up the CD a bit, since that's a REALLY low cooldown for such a powerful forced movement ability.
It has to have decent range to actually pull them into the AoE. Possibly I overestimated how large 500 is. Five Teemos is a bit much.
If it's not obvious, it's based on Garen's Judgement. The final cooldown is so low because she should be able to do it pretty often, same as Garen does it all the time. You couldn't have garen+kat without a significant amount of spin2win.
Hooray for champions!

[TheShrike]

I would have thrown in Amumu or Singed, myself, unless they're not tanky enough for you.

Yeah, obviously Amumu would be good for damage, CC etc. but sadly we were fairly limited by champion pools. One of our players was sub-30 and owned only AP/AD carries, so he grabbed free week Blitz, for example.

[Cogwheel]

Yeah, obviously Amumu would be good for damage, CC etc. but sadly we were fairly limited by champion pools. One of our players was sub-30 and owned only AP/AD carries, so he grabbed free week Blitz, for example.

Ah, I see. That explains it.

Some other ideas if you do this in future, though. Alistar and Shen may both be good picks, and aside from that, Taric makes and excellent burst damage-based AP champion for an all-tank team if you build him for it. Weird, but true. AP means he still has the armour from Shatter/gives everyone else armour/has enormous heals, too, so you lose some tankiness, but not a ton. As an added bonus, it's incredibly silly/outrageous.

[Postmodernist]

So, I've returned with another noob question:

I'm working on a pretty generic rune sheet (armor, magic resist, etc.) as per the recommendations I was given here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=261213&page=26). I'm currently working on the glyphs, and I'm curious to know what the community consensus is about scaling runes. Is it better to get flat magic resist runes (Greater Glyph of Warding) or the scaling ones (Greater Glyph of Shielding)? If so, why? Scaling runes seem to win out by level 9, which makes perfect sense. What are your preferences and why? Any other suggestions for a noob nearing 30?

[tyckspoon]

I'm currently working on the glyphs, and I'm curious to know what the community consensus is about scaling runes. Is it better to get flat magic resist runes (Greater Glyph of Warding) or the scaling ones (Greater Glyph of Shielding)? If so, why? Scaling runes seem to win out by level 9, which makes perfect sense. What are your preferences and why? Any other suggestions for a noob nearing 30?

Mostly depends on where you think you'll be laning. In Blind Pick Normals, the safe picks are scaling in most lanes and flats for Mid, because Mid is the meta-designated AP lane so you're likely to be taking much more magic-based damage there. In the other lanes, most of your incoming damage is likely to be physical (from lane minions, jungle monsters, and autoattacks/AD-based abilities), and by the time you start having to worry about major magic damage from a roaming mid or group fights you'll be at or near the switchover point where the scaling runes are more powerful.

(That said, if you are only putting together one page, I'd probably go flats unless you plan to jungle a lot, because there's a lot of magic damage around even from otherwise-AD-using champs and you can't reliably know what kind of weird stuff you might have to fight against.)

[Eldariel]

A new team, another Dominion tournament, another second place. Somebody needs to make me a Bridesmaid Humanoid Anivia avatar.

Game 1 (unfortunately I seem to have forgotten most of the picks/bans so I won't be listing those unless I figure them out from somewhere):
http://imageshack.us/a/img211/5158/021212domtourneyr1.png
Game 2:
http://imageshack.us/a/img33/3782/011212domtourneyr2.png
Game 3:
http://imageshack.us/a/img201/9605/011212domtourneyr3.png

Technical difficulties cost us a lot here; we didn't notice Lulu DC until after a fight and our ADC was playing with 130 ping due to some German operator being ****.

[Postmodernist]

Mostly depends on where you think you'll be laning. In Blind Pick Normals, the safe picks are scaling in most lanes and flats for Mid, because Mid is the meta-designated AP lane so you're likely to be taking much more magic-based damage there. In the other lanes, most of your incoming damage is likely to be physical (from lane minions, jungle monsters, and autoattacks/AD-based abilities), and by the time you start having to worry about major magic damage from a roaming mid or group fights you'll be at or near the switchover point where the scaling runes are more powerful.

(That said, if you are only putting together one page, I'd probably go flats unless you plan to jungle a lot, because there's a lot of magic damage around even from otherwise-AD-using champs and you can't reliably know what kind of weird stuff you might have to fight against.)

Thanks! I think I'll go scaling. Seems to make the most sense.

[Mephit]

Holy crap, Fnatic is completely crushing TPA. It's not even close. Kha'zix/Diana/Ezreal is pretty brutal in terms of damage+mobility.

Edit: And one minute later it's over.
Edit2: Aaaand Hatperson fanboyed over Fnatic so much that he shook their hands, but not TPA's. What the hell, man. I used to get annoyed by his lack of game knowledge, but now I'm convinced he's really too socially oblivious to ever make it anywhere as a caster.

[Renegade Paladin]

Renegade Paladin: Disregard the stupid, you can't avoid it but you can at least avoid thinking about it too much.

Also, I think I added you? Can't recall, it's been a while. Either way, we should play some matches some time. Could use a third Treeline player anyway, if you'd be up for that - a good team for Normals that doesn't have fifty billion matchmaking ELO. As an added bonus, Garen is a monster there.


Not that I'm playing anything until I get this mess of work cleared away, but anyway, thought I'd throw it out there.
Yeah, I know. :smallsmile: I don't think you did; the only people on my list are Godskook, his alt, and my sister. I'm not so much a Treeline player as a player of the game; I see no need to constrain myself to one map or game mode. I'm willing to play Treeline or not; either's fine with me. :smallsmile: Remember I'm not Renegade Paladin in the game; there's an imposter running about in there. You're looking for New Clean Garen.

[knightMARE]

A question for the more experienced players in this thread: How viable is Volibear top-lane compared to other, more popular picks? And how kind is S3 going to be to him, item-wise. I know I used to build things like ionic spark and the occasional FoN on him, so the loss of these items means I'll need to figure out new builds. The new Spirit Visage sure does look good though in that respect.

[ex cathedra]

Holy crap, Fnatic is completely crushing TPA. It's not even close. Kha'zix/Diana/Ezreal is pretty brutal in terms of damage+mobility.

They 2-0'd TPA right after group stages, so I'm unsure of why the analysis panel (Scarra, Doublelift, Phreak, Pluto) ended with TPA 2-1 predictions.

So yeah. Fnatic is 4-0 against TPA at IPL. It's such a shame that SK made it to the championships while Fnatic did not.

[PhoeKun]

They 2-0'd TPA right after group stages, so I'm unsure of why the analysis panel (Scarra, Doublelift, Phreak, Pluto) ended with TPA 2-1 predictions.

Well, TPA won the Season 2 Championships, and that sticks in a lot of people's minds. Even very good players are subject to confirmation bias.

I wonder how much the team will change in the post-Rekkles era...

[Eldariel]

A question for the more experienced players in this thread: How viable is Volibear top-lane compared to other, more popular picks? And how kind is S3 going to be to him, item-wise. I know I used to build things like ionic spark and the occasional FoN on him, so the loss of these items means I'll need to figure out new builds. The new Spirit Visage sure does look good though in that respect.

Good question. He always seemed really good to me but his cooldowns are really painful. He feels like he should be Singed with more up-front damage but in practice it just doesn't seem to pan out that way most of the time. I don't think his toplaning is bad but I don't think he's optimal now either.

For new items tho? I can't answer that until I've got some time to test out. And with 100+ champions that will take a while.


Well, TPA won the Season 2 Championships, and that sticks in a lot of people's minds. Even very good players are subject to confirmation bias.

I wonder how much the team will change in the post-Rekkles era...

Well, Fnatic organization is working to get the permission for Rekkles (and in general, under-18 people outside the NA) to play for S3, so we can't be sure quite yet..

[Cogwheel]

Yeah, I know. :smallsmile: I don't think you did; the only people on my list are Godskook, his alt, and my sister. I'm not so much a Treeline player as a player of the game; I see no need to constrain myself to one map or game mode. I'm willing to play Treeline or not; either's fine with me. :smallsmile: Remember I'm not Renegade Paladin in the game; there's an imposter running about in there. You're looking for New Clean Garen.

Ah, I suppose I forgot. I was sure I added you, too. Keep an eye out for an add from Omega Nixon, then (old jokes, they are strange beasts).

I'm hardly Treeline-exclusive myself, but still, it's much easier to get a full PVP team for that without any randoms to make a mess of things.


Edit: Support killsteal Volibear is the only true Volibear.

[Mephit]

They 2-0'd TPA right after group stages, so I'm unsure of why the analysis panel (Scarra, Doublelift, Phreak, Pluto) ended with TPA 2-1 predictions.


I don't think Fnatic and TPA played eachother before IPL5, so you could attribute their early loss to the factor of infamiliarity. That, and Fnatic have been under the radar for a long time.

I wasn't surprised that they beat TPA as by how crushing that second game was. TPA got the first 2 kills of the game, and then it was all Fnatic's game, and at 15 minutes Diana and Kha'zix had to be held off with 4 members of TPA simply because they could still go in, take someone down and get out safely if there had been less champions.

[knightMARE]

Good question. He always seemed really good to me but his cooldowns are really painful. He feels like he should be Singed with more up-front damage but in practice it just doesn't seem to pan out that way most of the time. I don't think his toplaning is bad but I don't think he's optimal now either.

For new items tho? I can't answer that until I've got some time to test out. And with 100+ champions that will take a while.


That's how some of my regular teammates feel - that I should be playing Singed instead. Although I do feel that Volibear has a stronger early game and can snowball a bit better.

RE: Support Killsteal Volibear

Unfortunately for me, the only time I've run Voli bottom was in a Voli/Darius lane with a Singed jungle. Fun times, although the tower kept KSing us.

[Eldariel]

That's how some of my regular teammates feel - that I should be playing Singed instead. Although I do feel that Volibear has a stronger early game and can snowball a bit better.

Well that's not the whole story. I'm just saying their kits are fairly similar with high speed, innate tankiness, slow and fling. The differences of course come in how they deal damage first and foremost. I initially loved Frenzy until I realized the active has an obscene cooldown so his Health-scaling isn't really as amazing as I originally thought it was.

His ASpd scaling is okay and he has innate bonus ASpd so there could be something in there but I feel his kit is constrained by the long cooldowns much like Alistar. But he's good for initiating and very naturally difficult to kill and he has all the tools he needs to be a good bruiser. I feel his numbers might just be a bit low, but compared to Singed he offers more stand-up damage while Singed has his unique troll playstyle.

[knightMARE]

Well that's not the whole story. I'm just saying their kits are fairly similar with high speed, innate tankiness, slow and fling. The differences of course come in how they deal damage first and foremost. I initially loved Frenzy until I realized the active has an obscene cooldown so his Health-scaling isn't really as amazing as I originally thought it was.

His ASpd scaling is okay and he has innate bonus ASpd so there could be something in there but I feel his kit is constrained by the long cooldowns much like Alistar. But he's good for initiating and very naturally difficult to kill and he has all the tools he needs to be a good bruiser. I feel his numbers might just be a bit low, but compared to Singed he offers more stand-up damage while Singed has his unique troll playstyle.

It's reasons like these that I try to build him to the CDR cap, and pick up things like Wits End. But with the nerf to WE & Philo Stone and the lack of heart of gold next season, I'm a little disheartened.

On an unrelated note, playing a bunch of underplayed champions means that I have limited options for skins (Oh god poppy, why do you not have any good skins)

Anyone else have champions that they wish had more/better skins?

[Cogwheel]

I find that between Shurelya's Reverie and whatever mix of Randuin's Omen/Frozen Heart you build on him, Volibear gets fairly heavy CDR. Possibly even CDR cap if you're willing to sacrifice damage and defensive balance to show the enemy carry how much you despise them, but I wouldn't advise that.

It also helps that even without abilities, built right, Volibear can hit pretty hard.

[Eldariel]

It's reasons like these that I try to build him to the CDR cap, and pick up things like Wits End. But with the nerf to WE & Philo Stone and the lack of heart of gold next season, I'm a little disheartened.

On an unrelated note, playing a bunch of underplayed champions means that I have limited options for skins (Oh god poppy, why do you not have any good skins)

Anyone else have champions that they wish had more/better skins?

Anivia! Oh god, Anivia is my most played champ and I don't even own a skin for her because I consider all the current Anivia-skins to be downgrades on the default.

[TechnOkami]

Anivia! Oh god, Anivia is my most played champ and I don't even own a skin for her because I consider all the current Anivia-skins to be downgrades on the default.

I have a custom skin for Anivia that makes her original skin look see-through, and thus like actual Ice.

On the "lack of skins for champions" thing: I want Battlecast Skarner. All his skins are just so "eh". Really, his original is his best.

[Math_Mage]

WE putting on a clinic this game.

I kinda wish WE wasn't doing so well, though, because it means the commentators have more opportunities to call Caomei "Tsyaomei" or "Chaomei" and take a BLOODY CHAINSAW RIGHT TO MY EARS :smallfurious:

[knightMARE]

I have a custom skin for Anivia that makes her original skin look see-through, and thus like actual Ice.

On the "lack of skins for champions" thing: I want Battlecast Skarner. All his skins are just so "eh". Really, his original is his best.

I never got into custom skins, but I couldn't agree more on Skarner, although the Earthrune (Name?) skin is alright. Before Headless Hecarim, I had the same issue there for my jungler of choice

[Mtg_player_zach]

Yeah, Trundle needs new skins, I would buy them.

[Joran]

WE putting on a clinic this game.

I kinda wish WE wasn't doing so well, though, because it means the commentators have more opportunities to call Caomei "Tsyaomei" or "Chaomei" and take a BLOODY CHAINSAW RIGHT TO MY EARS :smallfurious:

I've heard Cao Cao from the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period pronounced "Cow Cow", so I'm used to it.

Well done WE, continuing the Asian Wave. TPA showed that Season 2 Championships wasn't a fluke with strong play, albeit running into the Fnatic buzzsaw twice to get eliminated.

It's a bummer if Fnatic can't bring Rekkles to Season 3. They were impressive and my brother is loving Kha'zix's introduction to FOTM.

[Godskook]

Anyone else have champions that they wish had more/better skins?

I wish Udyr had a skin. I'm stuck using his base skin, and there's really nothing I can do about it. At least its a fairly boss base skin(shapeshifters OP).

On that note, I'd really want them to do a Super Udyr Bros. skin. His phoenix stance would use be like a fire flower(sound effect on third-hit proc), turtle stance would be a grow-mushroom(grow a bit when activated, shrink a bit when shield is lost), his bear stance would be the cape from the Super Nintendo version(the spinning sound when he stuns), and I'm not entirely sure how to handle Tiger Stance or star-power(and I don't think they'd work together).

[Thanatos 51-50]

Anyone else have champions that they wish had more/better skins?

If Riot comes out with more/better Twitch Skins, I will buy them all. Even the crappy Gangster Twitch one.

[Tychris1]

If Riot comes out with more/better Twitch Skins, I will buy them all. Even the crappy Gangster Twitch one.

Wait

What did you say?

I'd be careful with a tounge like that, tommy guns are misfirng constantly now a days.....

[Eurus]

Poppy does not need more skins because then more people might play her. :smallmad:

Seriously, I hate that champ so much. Rework plz. >_>

[knightMARE]

Poppy does not need more skins because then more people might play her. :smallmad:

Seriously, I hate that champ so much. Rework plz. >_>

Why the Poppy hate? I love playing her, it's so fun to gib people after hip-and-shouldering them into a wall and lichbane-qing their health away.

On that note, Rugby player Poppy skin. Or Gridiron for you Americans

[McDouggal]

I got penta'd. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2554003/)

I decided to be a good guy and give the Graves the recording.

[Silverraptor]

So, this game is all the silly. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2554019/)*

*Caution! Game might include
-1 minute level 1 teamfight
-Ally steal Blue buff
and
-Complete Stompiness

Do not attempt to watch without a good stash of popcorn nearby.:smallbiggrin:

[Eurus]

Why the Poppy hate? I love playing her, it's so fun to gib people after hip-and-shouldering them into a wall and lichbane-qing their health away.

You may have answered your own question there. She's extremely unfun to deal with, especially when you're trying to support or tank or something and she trololols with her ult and walks all over the squishies. :smalltongue:

[Temotei]

I wish Udyr had a skin. I'm stuck using his base skin, and there's really nothing I can do about it. At least its a fairly boss base skin(shapeshifters OP).

On that note, I'd really want them to do a Super Udyr Bros. skin. His phoenix stance would use be like a fire flower(sound effect on third-hit proc), turtle stance would be a grow-mushroom(grow a bit when activated, shrink a bit when shield is lost), his bear stance would be the cape from the Super Nintendo version(the spinning sound when he stuns), and I'm not entirely sure how to handle Tiger Stance or star-power(and I don't think they'd work together).

Could make Bear Stance the penguin suit and make Tiger the raccoon, cape, or something. When running in bear stance with activation bonus speed, sound of full-speed from Super Mario Bros. 3 plays.

[sonofzeal]

(Oh god poppy, why do you not have any good skins)
SO MUCH YES!!!

I kind of like the Scarlet Hammer one though, just not the eyes. And I'd buy the Blacksmith Poppy retired skin in a heartbeat at double the normal price, if it ever became available again.


You may have answered your own question there. She's extremely unfun to deal with, especially when you're trying to support or tank or something and she trololols with her ult and walks all over the squishies. :smalltongue:
I can see where you're coming from, but as a Poppy player I'm worried that a rework would get rid of what I love about the character.

Thing is, Poppy is 100% melee, with only a very short range dash, so she suffers the Udyr problem of being very easy to kite even with her ult. Most characters, if they play smart, can either hit her with CC or can escape and wait for the ult duration to run out. However, that depends on the person being ulted, and/or the person she's going after (not always the same), to be ready for it. If your ADC isn't on the ball, yeah it can wreck the teamfight. And if you're a support or tank, I can see how that could be frustrating when your ADC fumbles the situation.

But really, doesn't the same go for any other good initiation tool? Every good initiator has ways to mess up the initiatee's ability to respond - some far more emphatically and immediately. Is Poppy's initiation any better than Malphite or Amumu or Galio?

[TheShrike]

Poppy is similar to Nocturne, I find, in terms of opening a fight. While she can do it, you really, really, really want to be the second man in when possible. This lets you do your thing much more effectively.

In the case of Nocturne, big AoE initiates let him build more damage than if he was primary initiation, which is pretty nice.

[RoyVG]

And I'd buy the Blacksmith Poppy retired skin in a heartbeat at double the normal price, if it ever became available again.

Well, aren't you lucky. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31734151#31734151) At half the price no less.

Many Legacy skins will become available for a limited time only somewhere between now and the end of January.

And on that Udyr skin, apparently people found a Spirit Summoner Udyr skin in the game files a few weeks ago. And apparantly it's gonna be a Legendary Skin.

[sonofzeal]

Poppy is similar to Nocturne, I find, in terms of opening a fight. While she can do it, you really, really, really want to be the second man in when possible. This lets you do your thing much more effectively.
Quite true. I just don't see why it's more infuriating than any of the other "MWAHAHA" ult buttons that are out there.


Well, aren't you lucky. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=31734151#31734151) At half the price no less.
........I'd describe my reaction, but this is a family-friendly site. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:






In other news....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v356/sonofzeal/temp-2.png

Not shown: literally missing the first 4+ minutes of the fight. Not even the usual bug, either - I got into game, bought my starting gear, posted a message to my team, but then nothing I clicked did anything and I couldn't send any more chatbox messages. At about 2:30 I gave up, hit the "exit game" button, and got the "reconnect" option... which worked!

Now, anyone who's played with me knows it took me quite a bit to reconnect (yes, my laptop is a cleverly disguised toaster), at which point we were down both altars and I personally was down about five levels. But then I got a couple of assists. And then, somehow, a kill which pretty much must have been pure KS luck. And then I got another double-kill. And another one. And solo'd their full-health Garen without even getting low. And then they surrendered.

I know my team deserves most of the credit, especially Wukong who was kicking ass and taking names and giving me the opportunities to catch back up. But still, dang. Rumble OP?

[Eurus]

I can see where you're coming from, but as a Poppy player I'm worried that a rework would get rid of what I love about the character.

Thing is, Poppy is 100% melee, with only a very short range dash, so she suffers the Udyr problem of being very easy to kite even with her ult. Most characters, if they play smart, can either hit her with CC or can escape and wait for the ult duration to run out. However, that depends on the person being ulted, and/or the person she's going after (not always the same), to be ready for it. If your ADC isn't on the ball, yeah it can wreck the teamfight. And if you're a support or tank, I can see how that could be frustrating when your ADC fumbles the situation.

But really, doesn't the same go for any other good initiation tool? Every good initiator has ways to mess up the initiatee's ability to respond - some far more emphatically and immediately. Is Poppy's initiation any better than Malphite or Amumu or Galio?

I think part of the issue is that like you said, the person she's ulting and the person she's targeting aren't necessarily the same. Does your team have any members who lack the CC or damage to stop her? Well, that's probably the guy she's ulting, then, and if your ADC runs away (which is the only way they're going to live) then the rest of your team is in for a world of hurt in that teamfight.

(Also, holy god does her Devastating Blow do a silly amount of damage. I've been playing champs with significant armor and MR itemization and still taken more than 800 from it.)

EDIT: I'm also quite sure that she's less obnoxious in ranked or draft, since you can at least intentionally pick someone to punish her in lane or a comp that can handle her derping around in teamfights, but in blind pick you have much less for options.

[sonofzeal]

I think part of the issue is that like you said, the person she's ulting and the person she's targeting aren't necessarily the same. Does your team have any members who lack the CC or damage to stop her? Well, that's probably the guy she's ulting, then, and if your ADC runs away (which is the only way they're going to live) then the rest of your team is in for a world of hurt in that teamfight.

(Also, holy god does her Devastating Blow do a silly amount of damage. I've been playing champs with significant armor and MR itemization and still taken more than 800 from it.)

EDIT: I'm also quite sure that she's less obnoxious in ranked or draft, since you can at least intentionally pick someone to punish her in lane or a comp that can handle her derping around in teamfights, but in blind pick you have much less for options.
I don't think draft actually makes a difference, because the list of people who can punish her in lane includes... uh, pretty much everybody. :smalleek: Not even just all bruisers though, no, pretty much everyone has tools to give her trouble. She doesn't have a single ability beyond melee range, so anyone with anything ranged at all can pretty much get free damage in on her. And she doesn't have ways back out if she uses her gapcloser to get in (and it's a pretty short gapcloser anyway). And, she's pretty much got the worst mana situation of any champion in the league - literally only one other champion has a smaller mana pool at any level, but Poppy's mana costs are universally high, so she really can't afford to be using her skills to overcome her inherent deficiencies in lane.

Her Q is a sack of bricks though, yeah. After a particularly long Dominion game I once calculated that, pre-resistances and against a high-health target, I was getting close to 2000 base damage. Late-game Poppy is an absolute beast. I mean what I said though, I seriously can't think of a champion who can't bully her in lane, or at least out-farm her substantially from relative safety. Whoever's letting Poppy get fed pretty much deserves what's going to happen to them.

[Reynard]

Garen can't punish with Poppy, because she starts with Cloth5+W against him and has 80+ armour at level 1. He will then lose any trade in which she get a Q off.

[PersonMan]

Garen can't punish with Poppy, because she starts with Cloth5+W against him and has 80+ armour at level 1. He will then lose any trade in which she get a Q off.

With a mediocre (read: mine) set of ArPen runes and with the ArPen mastery, that's down to ~60.

The problem with Poppy in this situation is that:

-Garen trades with his Q. Really, if you just run in and spin2win you're doing it wrong. Generally, Garen Qs, runs in, hits, runs out. If she uses her Q every time he uses his, she will find herself up OOM creek without a mana pot, as they say.

-Garen has better inherent sustain. He can just spam harass trades until she runs out of pots, avoid her (not a hard task against someone with ~50 less movespeed than you) for a while to regen, then attack. Or just say 'hey jungler, here's someone who is mega slow and has no wards. Gank plz'.

Garen can afford to lose trades, just because he can heal up afterwards. I myself have underestimated dat passive while playing him and been surprised by how much I heal after a fairly short time with it up. Poppy can...guzze potions. She won't have more lifesteal than Garen (without LS quints, which I don't even know of the existence of), so it's not like she beats him there, either.

If you want, we can try the lane in a 1v1, I'd be up for it. We'd have to come up with win conditions, though.

EDIT: Forgot some of the ArPen. It's a total of 19 flat and 10%. 55 Armor left, after that.

[Nadevoc]

I don't think draft actually makes a difference, because the list of people who can punish her in lane includes... uh, pretty much everybody. :smalleek: Not even just all bruisers though, no, pretty much everyone has tools to give her trouble.

Against a good Poppy player, this isn't true. When I went through a short Poppy phase awhile ago, I could at least go even in most lanes if not win them. E->Q is a really powerful trading tool, and W and your passive make their trade much less effective.

Really, only Teemo and folks with true damage (Olaf especially) were that big a threat.

Remember that Poppy isn't trying to win the lane. She's trying to survive through it with enough gold that she hits critical mass.

[Forrestfire]

It depresses me that nothing I want will be on sale in January :smallfrown:

[Godskook]

(not a hard task against someone with ~50 less movespeed than you)

Unless Garen uses Q, that's not actually accurate. In your assumption that Garen's trying to heal, Poppy can free-farm, which puts her at max stacks of Paragon quite rapidly. That MS buff gives her 54.4 MS at rank 1, which outperforms boots. Sure, Garen can run away form Poppy if she starts cloth 5, but he needs Q to do it. Otherwise, she's faster than him, by a hair(4.4 MS)


Garen can afford to lose trades, just because he can heal up afterwards. I myself have underestimated dat passive while playing him and been surprised by how much I heal after a fairly short time with it up. Poppy can...guzze potions. She won't have more lifesteal than Garen (without LS quints, which I don't even know of the existence of), so it's not like she beats him there, either.

1.There are lifesteal quints.

2.You're also underestimating Poppy's passive, especially as she gets low. Sure she's guzzling potioins, but her passive makes it a lot more efficient for her to do that. Outside ignite, Garen really doesn't have a way to punch through it.

Finally, as Nadevoc said, Poppy isn't trying to 'win' the lane as much as survive it, since once she hits critical mass, she explodes people, regardless of how her laning phase went.

[ex cathedra]

Neither of them should have any relevant lifesteal whatsoever. Poppy runs HP regen, Armor, or Movespeed quints, Garen runs AD, ArPen, or Movespeed quints. Both want either a three tree mastery investment or the Defense capstone.

[Silverraptor]

Mario says I enjoy Rengar too much. I have to agree. (http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/2556522/):smallbiggrin:

[NineThePuma]

Poppy is fun. Did you know, if you launch her E before leona's E dashes Leona, but after it connects, Leona will dash and then teleport back to where poppy pushed her?

[knightMARE]

Another advantage I've found recently while playing Poppy is that, due to no-one really playing her, people don't know what to do against her. This is probably due to me constantly queuing with my sub-30 friend though.

I remember seeing a list of the scariest things in LoL (pretty sure it was in one of these threads) and the top of the list was "Poppy with 6 Items" :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Anivia! Oh god, Anivia is my most played champ and I don't even own a skin for her because I consider all the current Anivia-skins to be downgrades on the default.

yeah, dam annoying there isnt anything like a regular phoenix skin for Anniva :smallannoyed:

[Eldariel]

Another advantage I've found recently while playing Poppy is that, due to no-one really playing her, people don't know what to do against her. This is probably due to me constantly queuing with my sub-30 friend though.

I remember seeing a list of the scariest things in LoL (pretty sure it was in one of these threads) and the top of the list was "Poppy with 6 Items" :smallbiggrin:

Y'know, a fellow got himself to 2.2k by basically only spamming Poppy-games. It's not limited to sub-30 normals; and Poppy's passive makes her a deceptively good duelist.

[sonofzeal]

Against a good Poppy player, this isn't true. When I went through a short Poppy phase awhile ago, I could at least go even in most lanes if not win them. E->Q is a really powerful trading tool, and W and your passive make their trade much less effective.

Really, only Teemo and folks with true damage (Olaf especially) were that big a threat.

Remember that Poppy isn't trying to win the lane. She's trying to survive through it with enough gold that she hits critical mass.
Poppy certainly can survive laning, but what you're talking about isn't "winning", it's "not loosing too badly". Most champions can pull that off against soft-counters, and most champions can do so from more safety than Poppy.

That's what I meant - most champions, and especially most top laners, soft-counter Poppy. A few hard-counter her, like (imo) Teemo, Rumble, Olaf, Cho'Gath, Darius, and Warwick. Not exactly a short list. There's a few I think she can soft-counter; I've had excellent laning against most tanks in Twisted Treeline, especially Leona, and I feel reasonably confident I could do that again. But I do think most champions in the game soft-counter her in lane.


Y'know, a fellow got himself to 2.2k by basically only spamming Poppy-games. It's not limited to sub-30 normals; and Poppy's passive makes her a deceptively good duelist.
Spamhappy always comes up in these discussions. I think it's fair to say, though, that he's the best Poppy player in the world, and it's more a demonstration of just how far fanatical devotion to a single character can get you. The question is how far he might have gotten if he'd applied that same devotion to, say, Olaf or Irelia or Rumble.

But yeah, there's something to be said for total mastery of your chosen champ, especially when it's an uncommon choice that people aren't so certain how to respond to.

[ex cathedra]

Spamhappy always comes up in these discussions. I think it's fair to say, though, that he's the best Poppy player in the world, and it's more a demonstration of just how far fanatical devotion to a single character can get you. The question is how far he might have gotten if he'd applied that same devotion to, say, Olaf or Irelia or Rumble.

Zekent's alt actually got up to 2419 on Poppy, while his main surpassed 2700 during the course of S2. If anything, his devotion to Poppy cost him Elo. Between dodging games where he couldn't play Poppy, playing Poppy in sub-optimal lanes because he couldn't go top, and the stream-ghosting and counterpicking that comes with the SpamHappy account's notoriety, I'm sure that Zekent had a ton of issues. He would occasionally play Poppy on his 2700 main, so she's viable at pretty much any level of play.

[knightMARE]

I'm not familiar with this player, maybe I should look him up.
How does he generally build Poppy? I mean, AP Poppy is my go-to, but I've seen other people build her hybrid and AD, which I haven't had much experience with

[ex cathedra]

The player is Zekent (http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/20280285), Absolute Legends (NA)'s top laner. He became well known because of SpamHappy (http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/21987489), his alternate Poppy-only account.

His Poppy core (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=16923-zekent-poppy-build-guide) is Triforce with situational AD and CDR items.

[Gauntlet]

I believe Spamhappy normally buuilds Poppy AD, with some GP5 into Trinity Force and Infinity Edge.

[Nadevoc]

Poppy certainly can survive laning, but what you're talking about isn't "winning", it's "not loosing too badly". Most champions can pull that off against soft-counters, and most champions can do so from more safety than Poppy.

That's what I meant - most champions, and especially most top laners, soft-counter Poppy. A few hard-counter her, like (imo) Teemo, Rumble, Olaf, Cho'Gath, Darius, and Warwick. Not exactly a short list. There's a few I think she can soft-counter; I've had excellent laning against most tanks in Twisted Treeline, especially Leona, and I feel reasonably confident I could do that again. But I do think most champions in the game soft-counter her in lane.

I... really don't see how you're saying WW counters Poppy. I'd gladly put Poppy against WW in lane. I also wouldn't mind going against Cho that much; it's not a great lane, but I wouldn't call it a hard-counter, either.

And I didn't say she won lane. In fact, I specifically said she usually doesn't. Except that, because she scales harder than any of the champs she'll be facing off against. Which means when you're Poppy, "not losing too badly" IS winning. Seriously, if Poppy came out of laning phase 0/1/0 with decent farm? She won that lane. I don't care that she didn't stomp her lane opponent. It's like how if Nasus comes out of lane with a massively farmed Q and no more than a death or two, he won lane. The fact is, what 'winning a lane' means is different for different champions. I tried to avoid this confusion last post by saying I 'went even in lane if not won them'. But the fact is, with Poppy, that's actually still winning.

She has a fair number of poor matchups, but only a few really screw her - Teemo, Olaf, Darius, and Rumble, I'd say.

[ex cathedra]

Seriously, if Poppy came out of laning phase 0/1/0 with decent farm? She won that lane. I don't care that she didn't stomp her lane opponent. It's like how if Nasus comes out of lane with a massively farmed Q and no more than a death or two, he won lane.

The difference is that one of these champions has a strong lategame and the other is a Wither machine.

[ChaosOS]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegends.com/preseason/intro

[Eldariel]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegends.com/preseason/intro

New DFG is crazy. 3k for 100 AP, 15% CDR and 15%+20% amplification damage. It seems possibly stronger than in its "OP" state.

Getting Blackfire Torch (without CDR) on other maps is certainly interesting. I think the item is gonna be a strong competitor.


New Lichbane does magic damage. Kind of a bummer, old Lichbane was really the only way for mages to itemize so they deal physical damage too against an Armor-stack team (while ADs have plenty of options to deal magic damage through autos though none of them were very good).

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

A lot more to learn. This'll be a few interesting months, especially with the new masteries (losing CDR from Defense-tree really hurts for Dominion play tho since so many bruisers rely on CDR and that was really the only easy way of getting it outside Frozen Heart and Randuin's 5%).

[Reynard]

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

Movement speed from items got heavily reduced across the board, even on tier 2 boots, it's not unique to LB. You need Alacrity-enchanted boots to break even with season 2 movespeeds with the same boots/runes.

[ex cathedra]

It also lost MR and the Move Speed bonus got gut while the cost didn't drop that much. And the damage it did dropped. Overall, seems like a nerf but with the new MPen system the Magic Damage is probably a longterm advantage so reserving judgment.

Base movespeed, the MS that gets multiplied via runes/masteries/items, was increased across the board, thus each percentage point of Movespeed bonus is worth more than it was before the change. Seeing %MS numbers tuned down is just to be expected.

[TechnOkami]

...we're all going to have to re-learn itemization o-o"

[ex cathedra]

...we're all going to have to re-learn itemization o-o"

Dunno. I like to think that most itemization is just common sense, and that once you understand why certain stats are valuable in certain combinations there's nothing more to learn. To be fair, lots of people have hang-ups like "item X is just bad" that aren't particularly well supported, but still. Stats still have roughly similar value, so if you understood why good S2 items were good you shouldn't have much trouble adjusting.

If you memorized item builds, though... you might have a problem for a couple of days until someone comes along to spoon-feed you knowledge. :smalltongue:

[Reinboom]

Riot put together a summary of the Preseason change!

http://competitive.na.leagueoflegends.com/preseason/intro

And now the second big project I did is public. :smallsmile:

This one is much more subtle though. It's not the site, it's a data service that's driving that site.

...Though, it's really only relevant if you're a bit techy.

[Lix Lorn]

And now the second big project I did is public. :smallsmile:

This one is much more subtle though. It's not the site, it's a data service that's driving that site.

...Though, it's really only relevant if you're a bit techy.
Oh... wow, it's a lovely... service?
...
I got nothing. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[McDouggal]

Shen is so massively OP.

Also, is it just me, or does he counter Garen in lane thanks to his Q?

[sonofzeal]

I... really don't see how you're saying WW counters Poppy. I'd gladly put Poppy against WW in lane. I also wouldn't mind going against Cho that much; it's not a great lane, but I wouldn't call it a hard-counter, either.
WW's Q massively beats Poppy's in trades through the laning phase. It costs more mana, but he's got a larger mana pool and a vastly higher mana regen rate. That plus the lifesteal in his passive gives him better sustain, and hence much better lane pressure and zoning power. The last time I took Poppy laning against Warwick, I got utterly destroyed. That was a while ago, granted, and I didn't have masteries/runes worth a darn back then, but it was still one of the worst times I've ever had in lane.

[Reinboom]

Oh... wow, it's a lovely... service?
...
I got nothing. :smallwink::smalltongue:

Welllll, if you use something like Firebug (for Firefox) or use Chrome (with Chrome's developers tools)... you can go to console and do neat things like (on pages that use this service, like that preseason page):

Riot.DDragon.useModel('champion');
(Wait for champions.json to finish loading)

Riot.DDragon.useModel('champion').collect({key:'st ats.l1hp'});

You now have an ordered list of all champions sorted by their 1st level hit points.



Or you can make an htm file on your local computer (and open it in a browser) with:

<!doctype html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<script type="text/javascript">
rg_force_manifest = 'http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/realms/s3.js';
</script>
</head>
<body style="padding-bottom:100px;">
<div data-rg-name="champion" data-rg-id="Ahri" data-rg-aux="img=full"></div>
<div data-rg-name="item" data-rg-id="3057" data-rg-aux="img=sprite size=tiny"></div>
<script type="text/javascript" src="http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/dragonhead.js"></script>
</body>
</html>
And see some other fancy things.

I turned the LoL gameplay data in to a service, basically.

[ex cathedra]

Shen is so massively OP.

Also, is it just me, or does he counter Garen in lane thanks to his Q?

Shen doesn't really have any hard counters in lane, and he has a ton of favorable matchups. He gets outpaced by Jax and Irelia once they get a couple thousand gold down. His toughest lane is probably Jayce, though Darius and Olaf can be trouble.

[Eldariel]

...I turned the LoL gameplay data in to a service, basically.

Oh. That's...massively useful, especially applications there-of. It'll be much faster to figure everything out now. And maybe the site won't be a patch behind regularly :smalltongue:


Shen doesn't really have any hard counters in lane, and he has a ton of favorable matchups. He gets outpaced by Jax and Irelia once they get a couple thousand gold down. His toughest lane is probably Jayce, though Darius and Olaf can be trouble.

Speaking of Olaf, Last Whisper Olaf looks crazy now. Armor? What Armor?

[Nadevoc]

WW's Q massively beats Poppy's in trades through the laning phase. It costs more mana, but he's got a larger mana pool and a vastly higher mana regen rate. That plus the lifesteal in his passive gives him better sustain, and hence much better lane pressure and zoning power. The last time I took Poppy laning against Warwick, I got utterly destroyed. That was a while ago, granted, and I didn't have masteries/runes worth a darn back then, but it was still one of the worst times I've ever had in lane.

The only way WW can spam Q is if he picks up Chalice. Which, admittedly, Lanewick often does. It does outscale Poppy's Q, but it also very quickly starts running into her passive, thus letting Poppy's Q outscale it. She should actually win trades by level five or so, but not necessarily by enough to outscale WW's farm.

But the main thing isn't trading. It's that WW is a sustain champ, and doesn't have a lot of killing power. Poppy probably shouldn't go into lane and say, "Okay, I'm'a kill this WW!" She should instead say, "Okay, I've got possibly the most OP passive in the game. I've got some regen. I'm grabbing MR boots pretty early. I can mostly deal with his harass. This is going to be a farm lane. And guess who that favors? Me!"

[Godskook]

Shen doesn't really have any hard counters in lane, and he has a ton of favorable matchups. He gets outpaced by Jax and Irelia once they get a couple thousand gold down. His toughest lane is probably Jayce, though Darius and Olaf can be trouble.

I was under the impression that the best way to counter Shen is to play someone who can easily destroy his tower the moment he ults(Admittedly, most of the champs you mentioned eat towers rather easily).

[Silverraptor]

Dunno. I like to think that most itemization is just common sense, and that once you understand why certain stats are valuable in certain combinations there's nothing more to learn. To be fair, lots of people have hang-ups like "item X is just bad" that aren't particularly well supported, but still. Stats still have roughly similar value, so if you understood why good S2 items were good you shouldn't have much trouble adjusting.

If you memorized item builds, though... you might have a problem for a couple of days until someone comes along to spoon-feed you knowledge. :smalltongue:

*Prepares High-Chair*

*Ties on Bib*

*Makes motions to get someone to spoonfeed him*

:smalltongue:

Though to be honest, I'm not that bad. While I do mainly memorize builds, I do have a basic understanding on why I need and want certain items over others. But this is still a warning on those I play with often, I will be asking alot of questions.:smallwink:

Edit:

Okay, putting thoughts of some items in this spoiler for those of you to see my reaction.
-Seraph's Embrace: Why do I feel a lot of blitzcranks are going to get this item?
-Phantom Dancer: Did they make this an "F U Hecarim!"
-Guardian Angel: WHAIFRNISOFJSHDILAOEJDILMAODDOJSAPYA!!!!!! Did you really just give the item you nerfed its original stats on reviving?! WHAT?!
-Sword of Divine: IT RETURNS!!!
-Boots of Swiftness: So they give the item something that might make it purchasable?
-Warmogs: HOLY HELL!
-Deathfire: HOLY HELL!
-Morello: F U Volibear.

Wow. Just... wow.

[ex cathedra]

I was under the impression that the best way to counter Shen is to play someone who can easily destroy his tower the moment he ults(Admittedly, most of the champs you mentioned eat towers rather easily).

That alone doesn't counter him; Shen ulting bottom lane, securing some combination of one/two/three kills plus dragon and/or bot tower is a huge gold swing, and while taking his tower can mitigate that it doesn't do anything to prevent the massive pressure he puts on the entire map throughout every post-6 phase of the game.

Speaking of Olaf, Last Whisper Olaf looks crazy now. Armor? What Armor?
Look out guys, Olaf is dealing true damage. :smallwink: Let's see. Aegis upgrade would be ridiculous on, like, everyone. So there's that. I wonder if anything will replace his CDR core of Shurelya's + FH. Everything after that is just a bonus, to be fair. Lizard Elder Spirit is 50 AD and turns Reckless Swings into a 406 true damage nuke. It's cute how it has a 3 second DoT and 40% CDR Champion Smite has a 3 second cooldown.

Zeke's gives AD now, which is cool. It's a much better bruiser item in most cases, I think, but the non-CDR stats are a bit on the low side. Why do defensive auras get to be efficient (Aegis, FH) while offensive auras are so unimpressive? Almost everyone wants defense, so Aegis is buildable on like everyone and FH is staple for like 40% of the champion roster.

OH MY GOD BLACK CLEAVER OLAF. None of BC's stats are unique. I want to buy two of themmmm

[dgnslyr]

Well, the only thing that could possibly replace Frozen Heart on Olaf is the Frozen Fist, or whatever it's called now. Tankiness, CDR, and even the damage/slow effect, it all looks pretty strong, though it's more of a snowballing item than the more defensive Frozen Heart. Or why not both? Didn't Shurelia's get its CDR nerfed a bit? So the extra CDR and tankiness won't go to waste, and with the not-insignificant GA nerfs, it could be a replacement worth considering.

[ChaosOS]

GA's combine cost is absurd now, 1480 is so long to wait, it's almost a BF sword. Sure, the revive is decently strong now, but remember late game ADC maybe has 2200 HP, so the revive is doing less HP and mana is a non-issue/about the same. And 18 less AR and 8 less MR is going to hurt. On the other hand, Bulwark vs. GA is going to be a serious choice on frontliners, with some preferring Bulwark (Hecarim for one), while mumu will stick with GA to get a second chance at his ult.

Also, still hecarim will be silly since his W applies Spirit of the Elder Lizard. Expect massive damage hecarims with (boots) Iceborn Gauntlet, Spirit Visage, and Spirit of the Elder Lizard, then floating around with Bulwark and Shurelyas or Black Cleaver depending on the need for more damage or utility to cap off CDR.

[ChaosOS]

Well, the only thing that could possibly replace Frozen Heart on Olaf is the Frozen Fist, or whatever it's called now. Tankiness, CDR, and even the damage/slow effect, it all looks pretty strong, though it's more of a snowballing item than the more defensive Frozen Heart. Or why not both? Didn't Shurelia's get its CDR nerfed a bit? So the extra CDR and tankiness won't go to waste, and with the not-insignificant GA nerfs, it could be a replacement worth considering.

It's called Iceborn Gauntlet, and Axe Spam gives decent slow, but yeah Shurelyas is down to 10% CDR.

[Godskook]

GA's combine cost is absurd now, 1480 is so long to wait, it's almost a BF sword. Sure, the revive is decently strong now, but remember late game ADC maybe has 2200 HP, so the revive is doing less HP and mana is a non-issue/about the same. And 18 less AR and 8 less MR is going to hurt. On the other hand, Bulwark vs. GA is going to be a serious choice on frontliners, with some preferring Bulwark (Hecarim for one), while mumu will stick with GA to get a second chance at his ult.

1.GA's overall cost remained static. The change you're seeing is that they pulled a cloth armor out of the recipe, Chain Vest got 20g more expensive, and the other 280g went into the combine cost.

2.Amumu is....like one of the single *BEST* examples of someone who should be building Bulwark over GA*. He should be ulting to start fights, and thus, GA won't help with that. (*Don't start the debate of AP over support on mummy, that's entirely tangential to my point).

-------------

Is it me, or does spirit stone look really strong compared to razors? The Hp5 cleanly compensates for the lack of armor, while the Mp5 means more map presence on most champions. Combined with the fact that Maim only scales with AS, while butcher scales with everything, and I don't see wriggles being built very often on junglers in S3(Shyvana is an obvious exception, for instance).

[McDouggal]

AAAAnd the servers go down as I'm stomping with Shen :smallfurious:

[Winterwind]

-Phantom Dancer: Did they make this an "F U Hecarim!"Well, if you mean it in the sense that it turns people into Hecarim, kinda. If you mean that they made it useless for Hecarim, it was extremely useless for him anyway. :smalltongue:
(seriously, I cringe every time I see people build it on him. He doesn't benefit from the attack speed because of Rampage, and he doesn't really need the crit chance, either; his passive doesn't justify paying 3k gold for a little bit more movement speed!)


Also, still hecarim will be silly since his W applies Spirit of the Elder Lizard. Expect massive damage hecarims with (boots) Iceborn Gauntlet, Spirit Visage, and Spirit of the Elder Lizard, then floating around with Bulwark and Shurelyas or Black Cleaver depending on the need for more damage or utility to cap off CDR.On the other hand, tankiness is usually more valuable on Hecarim than damage. While Spirit of the Elder Lizard looks awesome on him, I can't help but wonder if Spirit of the Ancient Golem wouldn't be better on him nonetheless.

One (Hecarim-related) thing that irritates me about the new items is that they will make it very difficult to justify building movement speed on Hecarim. Iceborn Gauntlet seems too much superior to Trinity Force on him to justify building Trinity Force anymore, and with Force of Nature gone, there's no longer a defensive item that gives movement speed. None of the new items that give movement speed have stats Hecarim really wants (most of them being primarly about attack speed), so... yeah. :smallfrown:

[ex cathedra]

his passive doesn't justify paying 3k gold for a little bit more movement speed!)

Hecarim's passive doesn't really justify buying any movespeed whatsoever.

[Winterwind]

Hecarim's passive doesn't really justify buying any movespeed whatsoever.It doesn't per se, but movement speed itself is a pretty useful stat for him - making it easier to stay on top of the enemy squishies, initiate fights with less chance for the enemy to react, get behind people and E them towards his team, etc. Getting extra stat points out of something you want anyway is a nice bonus. The problem is that he doesn't quite want it to the point where it turns otherwise sub-optimal items into a sensible choice for him, and with the new items, the few items that gave movement speed yet were also useful on him otherwise (TF, FoN) are removed or supplanted by new, better choices.

[Eldariel]

Look out guys, Olaf is dealing true damage. :smallwink: Let's see. Aegis upgrade would be ridiculous on, like, everyone. So there's that. I wonder if anything will replace his CDR core of Shurelya's + FH. Everything after that is just a bonus, to be fair. Lizard Elder Spirit is 50 AD and turns Reckless Swings into a 406 true damage nuke. It's cute how it has a 3 second DoT and 40% CDR Champion Smite has a 3 second cooldown.

Zeke's gives AD now, which is cool. It's a much better bruiser item in most cases, I think, but the non-CDR stats are a bit on the low side. Why do defensive auras get to be efficient (Aegis, FH) while offensive auras are so unimpressive? Almost everyone wants defense, so Aegis is buildable on like everyone and FH is staple for like 40% of the champion roster.

OH MY GOD BLACK CLEAVER OLAF. None of BC's stats are unique. I want to buy two of themmmm

I still don't know if you want any offensive stats on him since his defensive scaling is so ridiculously good as is his base damage. I think one offensive item tops; so it'd be either Cleaver or LW. Cleaver has CDR, which is nice but IDK.

Iceborn Gauntlet is indeed interesting but it gives no health and competes with Randuin's for a spot (you want FH anyways since 20% CDR, the mana to back it up and a ton of Armor alongside an amazing Aura for a tanky frontliner) so I'm not quite sold on that yet.

Either way, I'm liking the wider itemization options here. But having inherent flat ArPen, masterying ArPen and then getting 40% percentile on top of that alongside the 8% mastery means "oops".


Btw, one thing I don't like about the new masteries; the opportunity cost of getting MPen is now much higher since you need to take the AP/Level Mastery for it. Previously, everybody could take the CDR and it was useful so you could run it on champs like Darius, Corki & co. but now you need some decent AP scaling to go down that road.

On the flipside, Frenzy is still really, really bad and now you don't need it for the ArPen mastery so the opportunity cost of getting the CDR is heavily diminished.

[LordShotGun]

I wanna play the new patch but I am too busy with Farcry 3 (excellent game)....First World Problems indeed.

Edit: I know!!! I will play farcry while watching Chaox on my tethered cell phone

[ex cathedra]

FH + Shurelya's is ****ing impeccable, as always, but the Shurelya's nerf leaves you 10% short of CDR cap and you don't get CDR from the defensive tree anymore. BC fills in that gap perfectly and the additional Q damage helps lategame. The high-AoE, low-CD nature of Undertow spreads stacks quickly, and 30% armor reduction is kind of a big deal.

[toasty]

If you memorized item builds, though... you might have a problem for a couple of days until someone comes along to spoon-feed you knowledge. :smalltongue:

Yeah in the Patch preview Morello was talking about how he wanted people not to build the same cookie-cutter build and there I was saying "But... I never do... my builds are different every game." But then I remember my low elo friend who last year was like "don't worry, I wrote down a build for this hero."

Patching now. Have classes from 11-3:30. Then I will probably play for a few hours before spending the entire night... writing a paper about Theology and Religion (because I'm a theology major).

Why couldn't they patch... you know... not the week before finals? :smallsigh:

[Reynard]

Also, still hecarim will be silly since his W applies Spirit of the Elder Lizard. Expect massive damage hecarims with (boots) Iceborn Gauntlet, Spirit Visage, and Spirit of the Elder Lizard, then floating around with Bulwark and Shurelyas or Black Cleaver depending on the need for more damage or utility to cap off CDR.

No, his W doesn't apply it, being technically 'periodic damage'. His Q does, however. And before you ask if I am sure, Yes.

[PersonMan]

That alone doesn't counter him; Shen ulting bottom lane, securing some combination of one/two/three kills plus dragon and/or bot tower is a huge gold swing, and while taking his tower can mitigate that it doesn't do anything to prevent the massive pressure he puts on the entire map throughout every post-6 phase of the game.

Aye. Honestly, I'd say someone with some on-call hard CC is perfect for this. Darius is really fun.

"Wanted to save someone? Nope! Also I'm now attacking you."

It's especially good against people who ult bot lane, then stop looking at the minimap and then go "ohcrap why do I only have 300 HP-OHHH I DIED".

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Eldariel, when you say Frenzy, do you mean Fury, the ASpd mastery? What makes it so bad?

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, when you say Frenzy, do you mean Fury, the ASpd mastery? What makes it so bad?

Fury, yeah, that one. It's simply 1% ASpd isn't worth very much; 1% CDR is likely much higher impact. I mean, just look at Berserker Greaves vs. Ionians; Greaves are much cheaper and give 25% ASpd while Ionians give 15% CDR. You can still run it but I know I'll be preferring 4% CDR to 4% ASpd every day simply because it's more bang for my mastery points; it's kinda like Brute Force vs. Mental Force in season 2. Mental Force gives AP, Brute Force gives AD, both give the same amount so Brute Force was just far more valuable and thus I ran it on everybody who had any chance of using it (then again, Havoc was even worse so on mages I usually ran Mental Force over Havoc).

[Forrestfire]

I went into a custom game to test stuff and oh god everything is different XD

[Mtg_player_zach]

I think my least favorite thing is tying the mpen to AP. I can't really take the mpen on Mundo or Shyvana or any of my junglers that would enjoy that. This blows.

[NineThePuma]

Mundo can use SOME ap, it's just not optimal to load him up with it. But Haunting Guise and it's upgrade offers AP, MPen, and health.

[ex cathedra]

Health isn't significantly more valuable on Mundo than it is on most champions, though, and Liandy's is a HUGE gold investment for mediocre return.

Also, I secondary max E on Shyvana and it has like a .6 or .8 ratio. It's not like you're Darius or anything. Old Shyvana had to get 4% CDR to get her MPen and she literally has the worst CDR scaling in the entire game. She really isn't any worse off after the swap.

[Eldariel]

Also, I secondary max E on Shyvana and it has like a .6 or .8 ratio. It's not like you're Darius or anything. Old Shyvana had to get 4% CDR to get her MPen and she literally has the worst CDR scaling in the entire game. She really isn't any worse off after the swap.

Whuh? A no-resource champion constantly spamming all her abilities with a self-reducing cooldown; surely someone like Akali, Katarina or Kennen makes far, far worse use of CDR?

[ex cathedra]

Akali and Kennen have Energy-generation mechanics that are CDR-based, and I think that both of them use blue buff better than most mana mages past 40 minutes.

Kat benefits from CDR a) in lane and b) situationally with zhonya's, so she's definitely in a similar league with Shyv and Rumble.

Frankly, though, Burnout is negligibly affected by CDR, her ult almost doesn't interact with it at all, and her E just... isn't that important. It's a good ability that interacts with her kit, yeah, but CDR doesn't make it way way better like it does Terrify, PAC, Final Sparkle, or Undertow. She has one skill that really appreciates it, her Q, and even that has an alternative mechanic. Having Nashor's and (old) Zeke's as her only source of hybrid AS/CDR itemization didn't help and she was better off with a couple of recurve bows.

[Tychris1]

Urgh, played my first day with the new items. Went 2/7 (Well, primarily from Orianna failing hard at mid and feeding). Really need to get someone to help me along the way, or atleast someone else to blunder at bot lane with me so that I can better learn what items don't and do work.

[Eldariel]

Frankly, though, Burnout is negligibly affected by CDR, her ult almost doesn't interact with it at all, and her E just... isn't that important. It's a good ability that interacts with her kit, yeah, but CDR doesn't make it way way better like it does Terrify, PAC, Final Sparkle, or Undertow. She has one skill that really appreciates it, her Q, and even that has an alternative mechanic. Having Nashor's and (old) Zeke's as her only source of hybrid AS/CDR itemization didn't help and she was better off with a couple of recurve bows.

I'm surprised you'd say Burnout is negligibly affected by CDR; in long chases and escapes you pop it whenever it's off cooldown and CDR with it increases your average speed substantially. And yes, Q also scales by ASpd and quite well indeed but ideally you'd want both.

E's real nice for maintaining the on-hit damage bonus constantly. Ult's pretty useless, granted, but meh. And yeah, Kennen and Akali can utilize bluebuff but when thinking CDR itemization they generally should not build any simply 'cause their energy is barely sufficient for their normal rotation. Their inherent energy restoration is far outpaced by the increased costs of lower cooldowns.


She doesn't have the best CDR scaling kit but when it comes down to it, all her abilities are useful throughout the game, 1 has very good CDR scaling and the other 2 are okay only leaving her ult out. Her CDR scaling isn't amazing but to say it's awful, I can't but disagree. The amount of ASpd needed to gain similar Q scaling you get with CDR is much higher.

Not that you should actually go out of your way to build CDR on her, of course, but any incidental CDR you can get helps a lot; I haven't went through S3 items in great detail yet (kinda busy right now and it's not live on EUW in any case) but if there are some CDR items that have other stats going well with her kits I could see building CDR on her.

[Godskook]

Akali and Kennen have Energy-generation mechanics that are CDR-based, and I think that both of them use blue buff better than most mana mages past 40 minutes.

Blue Buff gives massive Ep5, so its not exactly a 'fair' example of CDR.

[ex cathedra]

Not that you should actually go out of your way to build CDR on her, of course, but any incidental CDR you can get helps a lot; I haven't went through S3 items in great detail yet (kinda busy right now and it's not live on EUW in any case) but if there are some CDR items that have other stats going well with her kits I could see building CDR on her.

% Uptime on Burnout is useful, admittedly. I'm not saying that it's a worthless stat, just that it's less valuable on Shyvana than on pretty much everyone else. And, to be fair, CDR is really really good on pretty much everyone else. Slightly worse than "really really good" isn't necessarily bad. Awful CDR scaling, objectively? Probably not. Relative to most other champions, though? I think so. I do have a tendency to, uhh, "overstate" things.

Speaking of s3 CDR itemization, I haven't heard a lot of talk about Zephyr but I think it's going to be ridiculous on right-click bruisers. AD, 50% AS, MS, CDR, and Tenacity? Getting to build Ninja Tabi or Zerker's Greaves every game is OP as ****, yo. If it's good on Irelia and Jax (and I suspect that it will be) it could quite possibly be good on Shyvana.


Blue Buff gives massive Ep5, so its not exactly a 'fair' example of CDR.
I was taking that into account, the blue buff thing was a separate point: because of the energy regen and CDR, that buff is more valuable on energy champions than all but the most mana-dependent champions lategame.

EDIT:
holy ****ing **** IWillDominate (Dignitas' Jungler) has been banned from LoL Championship Series events for a year. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2864421)

[Math_Mage]

EDIT:
holy ****ing **** IWillDominate (Dignitas' Jungler) has been banned from LoL Championship Series events for a year. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=2864421)

Well, it finally happened to someone. Can't say I'm surprised, but I really wish we had known what competitive penalties would apply to a pro before this incident. That way there would be no question of whether IWD knew there would be competitive consequences to his solo queue behavior.

[knightMARE]

First game of SR post-patch, and I already love Frozen Fist. It made playing as Nasus at >400ms ping (not normal, even for Australians) fun, although I found the items I wanted to build afterwards all had CDR of some form, which would have lead to wasted stats.

Also, I found an annoyingly large amount of people complaining about the new layout and how LoL "is now DoTA".

[ex cathedra]

Well, it finally happened to someone. Can't say I'm surprised, but I really wish we had known what competitive penalties would apply to a pro before this incident. That way there would be no question of whether IWD knew there would be competitive consequences to his solo queue behavior.

I don't condone Dom's behavior, but this is a massive decision. I really hope that he was warned, I don't think that any amount of toxic behavior deserves something as retaliatory as surprising IWD with this information. If he was told that getting permabanned would prevent him from playing in premier events beforehand, I don't really have a problem with his punishment.

Oh well. Chances are he'll pull a Rekkles, join an amateur team, and... you know... dominate.

[Math_Mage]

I don't condone Dom's behavior, but this is a massive decision. I really hope that he was warned, I don't think that any amount of toxic behavior deserves something as retaliatory as surprising IWD with this information. If he was told that getting permabanned would prevent him from playing in premier events beforehand, I don't really have a problem with his punishment.

Oh well. Chances are he'll pull a Rekkles, join an amateur team, and... you know... dominate.

I agree completely. The text of the punishment only cites the Summoner's Code; that's unacceptable. There should be a clear and explicit set of regulations governing the circumstances under which a pro can be officially censured, as well as the appropriate degree of punishment for each type of punishable circumstance. It should be part of the contract pros sign when they agree to play professionally.

[Thrawn183]

Well, Black Cleaver stacking is already being targeted for removal from Dominion.


Edit for link: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3511938&pagenumber=277#post410244147

[sonofzeal]

Well, it finally happened to someone. Can't say I'm surprised, but I really wish we had known what competitive penalties would apply to a pro before this incident. That way there would be no question of whether IWD knew there would be competitive consequences to his solo queue behavior.
From what I've read recently, you need to be reported in a large number of games to face the tribunal at all - something like a quarter of all games you've played over the period, with a minimum of 10-25 reports. And, most people punished by tribunal get a warning for a first offence, followed by a 1 day ban, then 3 day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then a permaban on their sixth failed Tribunal.

If any of that is even remotely accurate, then I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the guy.

[toasty]

While I don't like the way Riot is using this for PR, IE: Don't troll, or you'll be like IWillDominate, I have to assume this decision was made some time ago and this is only public knowledge now. Dominate was warned 8 times and banned as few times as well. I have to assume ODEE and the rest of Dig knew about his behavior and I knew this was a possibility. Cuz otherwise... serious scumbag move by Riot.

[Thanatos 51-50]

I agree completely. The text of the punishment only cites the Summoner's Code; that's unacceptable. There should be a clear and explicit set of regulations governing the circumstances under which a pro can be officially censured, as well as the appropriate degree of punishment for each type of punishable circumstance. It should be part of the contract pros sign when they agree to play professionally.

Wait. So, because somebody is really good, they should be exempt from codes of behaviour that they agreed to?
I call shenanigans, good sir. His solo queue behaviour is as reasonable a ground to ban him as mine or yours.

[sonofzeal]

While I don't like the way Riot is using this for PR, IE: Don't troll, or you'll be like IWillDominate, I have to assume this decision was made some time ago and this is only public knowledge now. Dominate was warned 8 times and banned as few times as well. I have to assume ODEE and the rest of Dig knew about his behavior and I knew this was a possibility. Cuz otherwise... serious scumbag move by Riot.
I don't see where they've actually said anything like that so far.

And OTOH, there's been a sentiment I've heard quite a few times that "Riot would never ban one of their pros". Putting the lie to that has quite a lot of value, IMO.

[Tychris1]

So, anyone have any advice for Zed, especially with the new items and masteries? So far this is what i've been doing:

Spells:
Flash
Ignite

Masteries:
21/9/0 Going straight down the AD side of Offense, I grab everything, ASpeed, Frenzy, the works (Not summoners wrath though). For defence I take perserverance then dump 3 points into armor, 1 point into magic res, and then another into veteran scars.

Skill build:

Start with QWE then max R-Q-E-W.

Runes:

Movement speed Quints
AD marks
Armor yellows
Magic resist per level Blues

Items:

Start with Boots+3, rush two dorans, then build a Black Cleaver and a Frozen Mallet, from there I get a Blood thirster and another defensive item.

I lost both of my games with this setup and i'm teyin to figure out if it's from bad matchups (I went against Jax and Gangplank top), bas build, or if it was really my keyboard crapping out on itself. Any Zed advice would be appreciated, I really want to learn the ninja and it seems like nows a good time.

[toasty]

From what I've read recently, you need to be reported in a large number of games to face the tribunal at all - something like a quarter of all games you've played over the period, with a minimum of 10-25 reports. And, most people punished by tribunal get a warning for a first offence, followed by a 1 day ban, then 3 day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then a permaban on their sixth failed Tribunal.

If any of that is even remotely accurate, then I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the guy.

I'd like to point out that Solo queue is only mildly related to Professional Gaming. Dominate has, to my knowledge, broken no official rules of any Tournaments he has attended, disregarding the silly MLG Raleigh thing, for which he was punished anyways.

To me, this is the same as getting drafted in the NFL, and then being told you can't play because you did cocaine at parties in college.


I don't see where they've actually said anything like that so far.

Said what? My first paragraph or my 2nd one?

As to my 1st paragraph, its not a direct message, its a indirect one. They talk about Dominate's poor sportsmanship, but not in the context of his LAN play, which has been impeccably sportsmanlike as far as I can tell, but in the context of his solo queue play, something that has surprisingly little to do with Professional play.

Anyways, I very much got a "don't **** around, we'll ban you," message from this announcement.

[ex cathedra]

If any of that is even remotely accurate, then I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the guy.

Wait. So, because somebody is really good, they should be exempt from codes of behaviour that they agreed to?
I call shenanigans, good sir. His solo queue behaviour is as reasonable a ground to ban him as mine or yours.

Reading comprehension issue?

He was a poorly behaved player and he received the same punishment as other poorly behaved players; that's fine.

However, he was also banned from Championship Series competitive League of Legends events for an entire year. Pro gaming is literally that guy's livelihood. He's devoted at least a year of his life to it already, in lieu of school or a job or anything else. If I got permabanned tomorrow, I wouldn't be punished that way.

What's ridiculous is that a player was caught cheating at the S2 World Championships and was only fined a small portion of their prize, an amount less than the money they would earn by winning that Bo3 set, while IWD was banned from premier tournament scene entirely for being foul-mouthed in solo queue.

[TheShrike]

To me, this is the same as getting drafted in the NFL, and then being told you can't play because you did cocaine at parties in college.

Considering that it is literally the same game being run by the same company, a closer analogy would be showing up to practice drunk, repeatedly, ignoring warnings from the NFL and ignoring temporary suspensions, and then just being thrown out because enough is enough.

No sports analogy is going to be perfect because no sport is properly analogous to esports, but it's closer.

[PhoeKun]

I'd like to point out that Solo queue is only mildly related to Professional Gaming. Dominate has, to my knowledge, broken no official rules of any Tournaments he has attended, disregarding the silly MLG Raleigh thing, for which he was punished anyways.

To me, this is the same as getting drafted in the NFL, and then being told you can't play because you did cocaine at parties in college.

They do that in the NFL. Players get benched or suspended for conduct deemed detrimental to the league. More often, they get fined, but sometimes the conduct is bad enough that they jump things up a notch.




As to my 1st paragraph, its not a direct message, its a indirect one. They talk about Dominate's poor sportsmanship, but not in the context of his LAN play, which has been impeccably sportsmanlike as far as I can tell, but in the context of his solo queue play, something that has surprisingly little to do with Professional play.

"On the field" or "off the field" behavior don't factor into it. I'm not strictly in favor of suspending players based on things like this, but given Dominate's frankly legendary levels of toxicity, something had to be done. He's a paid representative of Riot, and they can't afford to be seen as endorsing behavior directly detrimental to people's enjoyment of the game. Even if you choose to make the distinction between is behavior in a LAN environment and his behavior in solo queue, many players will not.

Given that he is a member of a Championship Series team, it's in Riot's best interests as a company to mete out professional-level punishment.





Anyways, I very much got a "don't **** around, we'll ban you," message from this announcement.

That's on you for implying it, not on Riot for saying it. Publicly announcing suspensions and punishments for players is part and parcel of the transparency of any professional sports league. The language in their release mirrors that of similar releases done by the NFL, NBA, and the like.

[Silverraptor]

Well, its that time again. 3150 IP. What took so long you may ask? I had to get Rengar, and I love him!:smallbiggrin: But anyways, there are 3 champions next to be purchased, so vote away everyone:

-Gragas
-Kassadin
-Corki

I'll tune back later for the inevitable trolling tie you guys put me through.:smallamused::smalltongue:

[toasty]

They do that in the NFL. Players get benched or suspended for conduct deemed detrimental to the league. More often, they get fined, but sometimes the conduct is bad enough that they jump things up a notch.

"On the field" or "off the field" behavior don't factor into it. I'm not strictly in favor of suspending players based on things like this, but given Dominate's frankly legendary levels of toxicity, something had to be done. He's a paid representative of Riot, and they can't afford to be seen as endorsing behavior directly detrimental to people's enjoyment of the game. Even if you choose to make the distinction between is behavior in a LAN environment and his behavior in solo queue, many players will not.

Given that he is a member of a Championship Series team, it's in Riot's best interests as a company to mete out professional-level punishment.

I'm surprised to hear you say this because I agree with all of this. Every word. I completely understand and accept Riot's decision, and I probably even commend it somewhat. Having said that, I REALLY REALLY REALLY hope they told Dominate he could lose his sponsorship and/or get banned if he didn't "reform" (and I should point out other players have reformed. HotshotGG and Ocelote for instance). Because if they didn't, while the decision was understandable, the delivery thereof was... well... rather disgusting.

[Godskook]

Considering that it is literally the same game being run by the same company, a closer analogy would be showing up to practice drunk, repeatedly, ignoring warnings from the NFL and ignoring temporary suspensions, and then just being thrown out because enough is enough.

No sports analogy is going to be perfect because no sport is properly analogous to esports, but it's closer.

Better analogy: The sports player repeatedly shows up to other events at his home stadium, and gets himself arrested(for instance drunk and disorderly, harassment, etc). Over and over again. People are starting to take notice and believe that player's bad behavior is being ignored by his own home stadium. Rumors start circulating that he's being protected because he's a good player.

------------------------------

Just had a game with Mindalot, Forrestfire, Nadevoc, and Tiefernan. Game was very back and forth all game. Lots of GAs and lots of teamfighting going both ways. Both teams lose an inhib in mid and top inhib tower, and all side lanes are pushed to inhib towers. Teamfight at baron soon after their inhib respawns and while ours is still down, we kill 4 for 1, leaving their Sona to defend. Nadevoc peels back to save our base(all 3 lanes pushing) while Mind clears both open inhibs. We go to take baron, they come to contest, and both teams just poke-dance around baron for over a minute. I mention the minions in /all chat just in time to save the enemy nexus, but their retreat buys us time for a free baron. We then rush their base, and Nadevoc claims the Nexus from stealth after the enemy surrernders(very clutch).

TLDR: We just won a game by doing a baron dance, rather than teamfighting or pushing.

[Forrestfire]

Reading comprehension issue?

He was a poorly behaved player and he received the same punishment as other poorly behaved players; that's fine.

However, he was also banned from Championship Series competitive League of Legends events for an entire year. Pro gaming is literally that guy's livelihood. He's devoted at least a year of his life to it already, in lieu of school or a job or anything else. If I got permabanned tomorrow, I wouldn't be punished that way.

What's ridiculous is that a player was caught cheating at the S2 World Championships and was only fined a small portion of their prize, an amount less than the money they would earn by winning that Bo3 set, while IWD was banned from premier tournament scene entirely for being foul-mouthed in solo queue.

The point of a permaban is not to ban the account in question, but the ban the player. The only reason Riot allows people to make new accounts is because it would be a logistical nightmare (or flat-out impossible) to keep the player from making a new account and continuing playing.

With IWillDominate, this is not the case. They banned the player, and since they know who he is, they can keep him from playing in situations where his identity is open. He is free to make a new account anonymously, just like everyone else, but he as a player is supposed to be banned and thus definitely cannot play in tournaments.

Although if Riot didn't warn him and the team that he'd be barred from competitive events, shame on them. However, I completely agree with their decision.



Just had a game with Mindalot, Forrestfire, Nadevoc, and Tiefernan. Game was very back and forth all game. Lots of GAs and lots of teamfighting going both ways. Both teams lose an inhib in mid and top inhib tower, and all side lanes are pushed to inhib towers. Teamfight at baron soon after their inhib respawns and while ours is still down, we kill 4 for 1, leaving their Sona to defend. Nadevoc peels back to save our base(all 3 lanes pushing) while Mind clears both open inhibs. We go to take baron, they come to contest, and both teams just poke-dance around baron for over a minute. I mention the minions in /all chat just in time to save the enemy nexus, but their retreat buys us time for a free baron. We then rush their base, and Nadevoc claims the Nexus from stealth after the enemy surrernders(very clutch).

TLDR: We just won a game by doing a baron dance, rather than teamfighting or pushing.

Also, the promote item is ridiculous. The siege minion had eaten through two towers and half an inhibitor by the time they ran to defend from the three lanes full of minions :smallbiggrin:

[toasty]

He is free to make a new account anonymously, just like everyone else, but he as a player is supposed to be banned and thus definitely cannot play in tournaments.

You realize 90% of the professional matches Dig will play Season 3 will be with special accounts on special servers maintained specifically for professional play?

Like... Misaya doesn't log into his China account to play at Las Vegas in IPL5. No, he uses a special account on a special server ("elise patch" in fact, so its not even the Live patch) for that event.

Dominate doesn't have to maintain a personal account hardly at all. And even if he was permabanned, he could simply play bot games to farm IP/XP and never play solo queue. Like... you don't have to play solo queue to be a professional gamer.

[McDouggal]

It's time to play GUESS THOSE LANES!

http://i1154.photobucket.com/albums/p527/MacDouggal/LoLwhat.png

Do not read until you've guessed.

(my team) Sion/Shen top, Sona solomid, Fiora/Pantheon bot.
(their team) Darius top, Eve jungle, Ori mid, Ashe/WW bot.

Dat Sona mid. New meta? Also, Shen/Sion lane horrendously OP. 4v2 (Ori, Warwick and Eve came to gank) and not only do we escape, we get a kill when they try and fail to dive us.

Our botlane is what destroyed them though. Fiora and Pantheon ate Ashe and Warwick alive. Had both bot towers down at 15 minutes.

[Forrestfire]

You realize 90% of the professional matches Dig will play Season 3 will be with special accounts on special servers maintained specifically for professional play?

Like... Misaya doesn't log into his China account to play at Las Vegas in IPL5. No, he uses a special account on a special server ("elise patch" in fact, so its not even the Live patch) for that event.

Dominate doesn't have to maintain a personal account hardly at all. And even if he was permabanned, he could simply play bot games to farm IP/XP and never play solo queue. Like... you don't have to play solo queue to be a professional gamer.

Doesn't that just further my point that his ban is really not that different than what happens (or rather, what is supposed to happen) when any other player gets permabanned?

[Math_Mage]

so gaiz
hay gaiz

guess who just made top post on r/lol (http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/14apdm/team_betrays_darius/)


From what I've read recently, you need to be reported in a large number of games to face the tribunal at all - something like a quarter of all games you've played over the period, with a minimum of 10-25 reports. And, most people punished by tribunal get a warning for a first offence, followed by a 1 day ban, then 3 day, then 1 week, then 1 month, then a permaban on their sixth failed Tribunal.

If any of that is even remotely accurate, then I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the guy.

Wait. So, because somebody is really good, they should be exempt from codes of behaviour that they agreed to?
I call shenanigans, good sir. His solo queue behaviour is as reasonable a ground to ban him as mine or yours.
I don't disagree with permabanning him and his known smurfs. The issue is how that translates to how his competitive career should be treated, which is a much more serious, not to mention financially impactful, concern. If there is no expectation that trolling around in solo queue will have professional consequences, then some pros will troll around in solo queue. The appropriate response is to first create the expectation with explicit regulation, then start punishing people who fail to meet that expectation according to those regulations. It is not to create the expectation by punishing those people.


I don't see where they've actually said anything like that so far.

And OTOH, there's been a sentiment I've heard quite a few times that "Riot would never ban one of their pros". Putting the lie to that has quite a lot of value, IMO.
This isn't the first time a pro has been suspended following a permaban. But the last time it happened, the player involved was only suspended for one tournament. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28081971#28081971) That makes this judgment suspect, because it raises the question of whether Riot imposed this much harsher penalty to make an example of IWD because he's well-known.

[ChaosOS]

So, dom right now is rather silly with Xmas colors. BC red and BFT green EVERYWHERE!

[Godskook]

If there is no expectation that trolling around in solo queue will have professional consequences, then some pros will troll around in solo queue. The appropriate response is to first create the expectation with explicit regulation, then start punishing people who fail to meet that expectation according to those regulations. It is not to create the expectation by punishing those people.

I don't understand how you can write that(in reference to IWD), and then write this:


This isn't the first time a pro has been suspended following a permaban. But the last time it happened, the player involved was only suspended for one tournament. (http://na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=28081971#28081971) That makes this judgment suspect, because it raises the question of whether Riot imposed this much harsher penalty to make an example of IWD because he's well-known.

Cause quite clearly, by your own demonstration, Riot has, back in August, created the expectation that solo queue behavior will have consequences on the professional circuit.

Sure, the degree to which he was punished is significantly harsher than the previous offender, but according to Riot, the degree to which he was trolling was significantly harsher as well.

[Math_Mage]

I don't understand how you can write that(in reference to IWD), and then write this:
Because I specify a means by which that expectation should be created, that does not seem to have been followed in either case.

"The appropriate response is to first create the expectation with explicit regulation, then start punishing people who fail to meet that expectation according to those regulations. It is not to create that expectation by punishing those people [first]." That's the core of my issue with this action.

[TheShrike]

According a mod at TL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386154&currentpage=4#77) who was talking with Riot, Dignitas and IWD have been warned multiple times in the past. Apparently this has been going back several months, and I can only speculate that the reason it happened now instead of earlier was due to not wanting to screw over Dignitas in the middle of Season 2.

And for what it's worth, he's the admin of the LoL Section of one of the bigger LoL communities in NA, so I wouldn't say it's unlikely that he's in communication with Riot.

[toasty]

Doesn't that just further my point that his ban is really not that different than what happens (or rather, what is supposed to happen) when any other player gets permabanned?

No. I play League for fun. I SPEND money on it, in fact. Dominate plays League for a living. He EARNS money on it, in fact.

One is entertainment, the other is a job. Dominate does not have to play solo queue for fun to make money by doing his job, which just so happens to also be playing league of legends.

To change the subject completely:
If you have 2k Elo (or had it in Season 2) and are 17+ you should totally apply to join CLG.Prime. They're having tryouts for their subs. YOU COULD BE THE NEXT RHUX

[Math_Mage]

According a mod at TL (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=386154&currentpage=4#77) who was talking with Riot, Dignitas and IWD have been warned multiple times in the past. Apparently this has been going back several months, and I can only speculate that the reason it happened now instead of earlier was due to not wanting to screw over Dignitas in the middle of Season 2.

And for what it's worth, he's the admin of the LoL Section of one of the bigger LoL communities in NA, so I wouldn't say it's unlikely that he's in communication with Riot.

Well, I'm glad to see they're not taking anyone by surprise. No real issues here, then.

[sonofzeal]

Because I specify a means by which that expectation should be created, that does not seem to have been followed in either case.

"The appropriate response is to first create the expectation with explicit regulation, then start punishing people who fail to meet that expectation according to those regulations. It is not to create that expectation by punishing those people [first]." That's the core of my issue with this action.
I think the message has been clear that the regulations for pro players are, effectively, the same as for solo-queue. Banning from competitive play seems like a natural corollary of permabanning in general.

[Math_Mage]

I think the message has been clear that the regulations for pro players are, effectively, the same as for solo-queue. Banning from competitive play seems like a natural corollary of permabanning in general.

Not to mimic aethernox, but that's just, like, your opinion, man. After two and a half years of watching the most visible pros behave worse than the average solo queue player with little word or action from reds and very few consequences, I've found such messaging distinctly lacking. They seem to be working on that, and it's about damn time, but this definitely hasn't been one of Riot's strong points.

[Godskook]

Well, I'm glad to see they're not taking anyone by surprise. No real issues here, then.

The fact that IWD was warned(and previously punished) was part of Aether's original link, man. And it wasn't even just once.


Not to mimic aethernox, but that's just, like, your opinion, man. After two and a half years of watching the most visible pros behave worse than the average solo queue player with little word or action from reds and very few consequences, I've found such messaging distinctly lacking. They seem to be working on that, and it's about damn time, but this definitely hasn't been one of Riot's strong points.

But that's just, like, Riot's opinion too, and one that they've been far too vocal about for you to be surprised that its their opinion.

Or to put it another way: You can't prove that law doesn't exist by pointing to examples of crime. That's like saying 'dry' doesn't exist by pointing at an ocean.

[sonofzeal]

Off of the whole IWD thing....



I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

[TFT]

Just uninstalled league until the end of the semester, and I probably won't be frequenting mumble anytime soon. See you guys after finals. :smallfrown:

Saddest thing all semester.

[NineThePuma]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

[Godskook]

I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

All of that still works just fine. Consider Haunting Guise and its upgrade though, which gives a lot of punch for your purchase.

[TheShrike]

Off of the whole IWD thing....



I'd just worked out a Rumble item set I was loving when the patch hit. Defensive boots to counter lane, a quick Revolver, then Wooglet's, Abyssal, Rylai's (order depending on opponents).

Now I need to rethink things though. Can anyone recommend a good S3 item set?

I would consider Sorc boots if not in huge danger from lane, early Blackfire Torch for MPen (and percentage damage, but stacking Abyssal/Torch/Sorc MPen is REALLY REALLY GOOD) and maybe a Doran's Shield or two for survival. Revolver not needed, usually, as there is more skirmishing and mini-teamfights than SR-style laning, but Witchcap, Abyssal and Rylai's are still really good.

[Godskook]

Just uninstalled league until the end of the semester, and I probably won't be frequenting mumble anytime soon. See you guys after finals. :smallfrown:

Saddest thing all semester.

That's like, two weeks right? Cause I don't think we can handle more than two weeks.

[Math_Mage]

The fact that IWD was warned(and previously punished) was part of Aether's original link, man. And it wasn't even just once.

Warned and punished in Tribunal, yes. It's the fact that measures were taken outside of Tribunal, from the eSports division to Dignitas, that satisfy me, and that were not previously stated.


But that's just, like, Riot's opinion too, and one that they've been far too vocal about for you to be surprised that its their opinion.

Or to put it another way: You can't prove that law doesn't exist by pointing to examples of crime. That's like saying 'dry' doesn't exist by pointing at an ocean.

Vocal about the fact that pro players face the same Tribunal and player behavior judgments that others face, yes. Vocal about the expectation that pro players will receive official professional consequences for Tribunal actions? No.

If you are aware of lots of prior instances where Riot has been vocal in that fashion, feel free to cite some examples. All I can do, logically speaking, is contrast the constant well-documented misbehavior of streaming pros with the relative lack of prior consequences. I am not expected to prove a negative; the burden of proof is all on you. So by all means, show me where Riot has consistently voiced the expectation that pros will be punished as pros for their misbehavior as solo queue players.

And if you can't--hell, even if you can--do me a favor and stop treating your opinions like foregone conclusions, and me like a moron who can't see the obvious. You are not the man arguing that 'dry' exists, or that law exists, and the smugness of those comparisons ticks me off.

[TheShrike]

So I just spectated a game because it said on my friend's list that Penguinizer was playing Nidalee, and I was curious if he was playing AD or AP. When I get in game, I see he's on Lux. "Oh well", I thought, "He must have traded with someone." Nope. No Nidalee in game at all.

[McDouggal]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

I'm too scared to go into the jungle :(

Well, let me rephrase that-I'm scared to be a jungler. I'm looking at the jungle changes and realizing that Nunu and Fiddles are probably the best junglers I have right now. (After I spent 6300 on Lee Sin, cuz I wanted the best jungler...)

[PEACH]

Ugh.

First game in the jungle post patch change.

Opted Skarner.

Completely and utterly sucked ass.

Jungle Skarner is completely fine. In fact, the rebalanced camps even made him more cruise control-ish; with my masteries and runes you no longer need to switch AA targets on the wolf camp to get them all to die at the same time (and thus clear the fastest, if not the best on your HP), and the same goes for golems. The extra HP doesn't seem to matter too much because Skarner already clears well and it's essentially mitigated by Machete and the new masteries. Plus you get ridiculous amounts more gold and EXP than you did before, if not as much as way way back when a good double clear could get you level six. If you go wolves blue wraiths golems red wolves wraiths golems (smiting at the blue and the second wolves unless you're using a defensive page and might have a full power smite on red), you go back with level 5 or close to it and enough money for boots and a soulstone, which is nice.

Combine that with the amazing new itemization options for Skarner, mostly that I'm pretty sure a core of Wraith, Frozen Fist, and Mercs is amazing right now, since Frozen Fist or Icy Gauntlet or Moderately Cold Glove or whatever they renamed it to has amazing stats for Skarner and the slow stacks with his Q and lets him keep fast people from peeling early and Mercs, CDR, and spell vamp are never unwanted, and you get a very happy Skarner.



I'm too scared to go into the jungle :(

Well, let me rephrase that-I'm scared to be a jungler. I'm looking at the jungle changes and realizing that Nunu and Fiddles are probably the best junglers I have right now. (After I spent 6300 on Lee Sin, cuz I wanted the best jungler...)

Jungle changes really didn't affect much negatively. AoE junglers still clear well and I'm pretty certain that while it's dependant on your AoE to autoattack ratio, most junglers weren't doing enough AoE that they're actually gonna take significantly more damage; they'll spend a little longer on the camp but it's not like single target magically clears the camp instantly now. Using Skarner as an example of somebody who probably has the highest AoE damage compared to his single target damage (or close to it; Phoenix Udyr might win here), he's still clearing the small mobs at the same time as the big mob in non buff camps, which means that any jungler based on AoE will still have all their AoE damage relevant throughout any camp that isn't a buff camp.

Most junglers probably need a Machete and some potions to clear as effectively as before, but that isn't really bad because Machete builds into a lot of cool things and only minimally lowers your ability to be aggressive compared to longsword/doran's. With the general movespeed buffs and nerfs to boots speed, I would say that junglers even have better aggressive opportunities against lane because (excepting, like, boots start Lee Sin for level 2 ganks) you're going to be more mobile relative to a boots buying counterpart and the increased mobility through long jungle/gank routes helps a ton for pre-six ganks.

If you're worried about Lee Sin specifically, he's still kickass. You'll be fine. The best junglers are probably still the best, the marginal junglers are probably still marginal, and I am honestly having trouble, with the increased camp rewards and just how good Machete is, figuring out who really got hurt by this change. The 10% butcher on Machete basically counteracts all the HP buffs given to the jungle, which leaves very little room for the jungle to truly be harder.

[TheShrike]

According to Stonewall and Saintvicious, Fiddle is a bit better, Warwick is a little bit better, Hecarim/Naut/Maokai are much weaker, Amumu is fine, Lee Sin is still godmode and Olaf is wtf insanely good.

Speaking to Olaf for a moment, his clear speed did not go down at all, but his health retention went up due to having more potions. This makes him even scarier in terms of jungle fights than he was, and his ganks are strong as well. Olaf also benefits from itemization options, as he's one of those characters who doesn't need to build damage to deal damage, but if you build damage he scales well with it. To be honest though, not hugely likely any of the Machete items. I mean, they're all decent but none of them stare me in the face and say "I am awesome, grab me immediately" like they do with some junglers.

[Penguinizer]

So I just spectated a game because it said on my friend's list that Penguinizer was playing Nidalee, and I was curious if he was playing AD or AP. When I get in game, I see he's on Lux. "Oh well", I thought, "He must have traded with someone." Nope. No Nidalee in game at all.

I think that might have been since the first character I picked was Nid'. Of course since 3 other people proceeded to pick top laners after me I switched to Lux. I think that might have been what caused the issue.

Anyways, so far, my opinion of the new masteries is mainly positive. Can't really say for the new items. They all seemed rather niche or just not useful that I didn't bother with them. Being able to start flask+faerie charm+potion is nice though.

Also, on another thought, what do people think of the new UI? The new shop layout is pretty good but I think it's got too much space that could be used. Same with the score screen. I don't really like the large borders, the skill level-up button could also be made smaller in my opinion. The fact that it shows the level of the skill on the icon is nice though.

[sonofzeal]

All of that still works just fine. Consider Haunting Guise and its upgrade though, which gives a lot of punch for your purchase.
It's a good thought, but Revolver is cheaper and gives more AP, and I find I've done better since I went with it. Blackfire Torch is definitely on the list, but my priority is tankiness and AP - Wooglet's gives nice armor, Abyssal gives nice MR, Rylai's gives nice HP, and all three boost my offensive capabilities synergistically too. BFT is my top pick for the next item though. I was kind of wondering if repricings messed things up, or any of the S3 items were applicable, but otherwise I'm pretty happy with this build.

[McDouggal]

So, as a replacement for HoG's lost GP10 slot on tank Shen, I'm running Kage's pick.

Is this a good idea, or should I try to CS even harder (I seem to be doing insanely well (for me) CS-wise with Shen for whatever reason-although it might be the fact that I use my Q to farm so much)? Is there a new GP10 that I haven't heard of that would work better?

[Winthur]

According to Saintvicious, Fiddle is new OP, Warwick sucks as usual, Hecarim/Naut/Maokai are much weaker, Amumu is fine, Lee Sin is still godmode and Olaf is wtf insanely good while Mundo is even more broken, Jax and Gangplank are stronger.


Fixed.
I'm sad that they didn't actually fix WW. :C

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Even starting howl+machete? I had hoped that would work...

In other news, Shaco continues to do just fine.

[NineThePuma]

I've found that a Sightstone actually subs in okay. It doesn't build into anything, but it's actually pretty useful for warding, letting you ward both river and tribrush with 6 minutes between each back for wards, AND you can hold onto it for a long while since wards never actually stop being relevant to the game.