The Paladin the Party DOESN'T Want Murder

[Wise Green Bean]

I may be playing a Pathfinder paladin in the near future. I'm looking around for paladin personalities that won't make every person in the group want to leave me hog tied in the starting tavern bathroom.

Some general personality archetypes I was thinking...

The protector. He defends people, beyond what's required of every paladin. Can't stand it when people get hurt, even evil folks, and he'll try to avoid violence if at all possible. Diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. If it comes to a fight, he throws himself between the baddy and the buddies and he keeps the sucker away from them. When his buddies bend his code, he's calm but makes it clear what isn't ok. Provides reasonable arguments and incentives for alternatives.

The idiot in bliss. INT has always been the paladin's dump stat, and in Pathfinder so is WIS. This paladin is a lovable dumbass, casual and generally happy go lucky as he goes through life doing good. There's decent odds his allies can sneak a lot of crap past him, as he's incredibly trusting and pretty freakin' gullible. What he can't help but realize is not kosher on the part of his party, he steers lightly away from, playing on the fact that he's a generally nice, well liked guy.

Holy avenger. Definitely the darkest sort of paladin. Think shiny batman. He's an extremist, but enforces the lawful-code business to the minimum possible in favor of fighting evil. As close to grey as possible for a paladin. Doesn't ask much in terms of behavior from the party, and what he does demand, he's probably scary/threatening enough to push through. Though I'm skeptical of how well it would play out in game, given the stubbornness of players.

Any other thoughts on paladins who can avoid being completes asses?

[Cranthis]

You could be a Paladin of True Freedom. Lawful Neutral Paladin of a cause (Freedom). You go around making sure people aren't oppressed and being forced against their will. Regardless of alignments, you make sure that all are free to do as they will.

[TuggyNE]

You could be a Paladin of True Freedom. Lawful Neutral Paladin of a cause (Freedom). You go around making sure people aren't oppressed and being forced against their will. Regardless of alignments, you make sure that all are free to do as they will.

Wouldn't that just be the CG variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)?

[Cranthis]

Wouldn't that just be the CG variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)?

Kind of. But a Paladin of TRUE Freedom cares not about good vs evil.

[Wise Green Bean]

I'm on Pathfinder. I THINK that's only 3.5...

Not the point. Even if that were an option, I'm looking for solutions for the standard LG pally.

[ThiagoMartell]

Kind of. But a Paladin of TRUE Freedom cares not about good vs evil.

Not in D&D, no.

[Andreaz]

You could just be a nice guy with a strong sense of justice and a good head on your shoulders.
Play gambling games at the inn, it's just good fun.
Talk your way out of unnecessary struggles. Do not use detect evil until after you decided to cave in the target's face.
There's nothing wrong with bribing the bureaucrats of the corrupt system whose way to the top you are trying to climb, you are using the system to fight it(paladins are not required to respect a corrupt system).
You aren't going to lose your paladin magic because you made a butt joke.
If you have to fight in a crowded street, it's perfectly okay to scare the **** out of the bystanders so they get out of the way.
Don't chastise the rogue for plundering the house of the guy you are about to impale.

[Cranthis]

Not in D&D, no.

There can be a class variant for anything.

[ThiagoMartell]

There can be a class variant for anything.

My point is that freedom in D&D is very much a CG concept, not a LN concept.

[TuggyNE]

My point is that freedom in D&D is very much a CG concept, not a LN concept.

Specifically, it is a) empowering individuals, not groups; and b) generally intended to benefit people. As such, CG fits quite neatly.

[Cranthis]

My point is that freedom in D&D is very much a CG concept, not a LN concept.


Specifically, it is a) empowering individuals, not groups; and b) generally intended to benefit people. As such, CG fits quite neatly.

True. But what I'm saying doesn't necessarily empower people. He is lawful to the idea that no one should be forced to do something they don't want too. He has no problem stabbing a slave trader, as well as the lawful good innkeeper who makes his son work at the inn.

[ThiagoMartell]

True. But what I'm saying doesn't necessarily empower people. He is lawful to the idea that no one should be forced to do something they don't want too. He has no problem stabbing a slave trader, as well as the lawful good innkeeper who makes his son work at the inn.

That's not really what being Lawful mean. That dude would be Chaotic Neutral, if not Chaotic Evil.

[Cranthis]

Anyways, we should probably get back to OP's subject. Andreaz has the best answer so far.

[Zovc]

Talk your way out of unnecessary struggles. Do not use detect evil until after you decided to cave in the target's face.

How about a paladin who uses Detect Evil to say, "Okay, man. I'm mad, but I'll let this one go."

[Andreaz]

How about a paladin who uses Detect Evil to say, "Okay, man. I'm mad, but I'll let this one go."I don't understand your question. Why would a holy warrior empowered by a greater calling that demands wisdom (that he'll grow or he'll fall) in actions decide (decide, not "feel like") to cave in someone's face and then change his mind?

[Ketiara]

Don't chastise the rogue for plundering the house of the guy you are about to impale.

Haha! Can I sig that?

[Andreaz]

Haha! Can I sig that?All yours.

[Fable Wright]

Whenever I think of paladins done right, I think of this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8359242) story.

Regardless, I think the best way to handle Paladin is the way AtwasAwamps did: Laidback moral compass that's just a nice person. Who just happens to not stop at anything to actually do the right thing.

[Sgt. Cookie]

1. Watch BBC's Merlin from season 4 onwards.

2. Watch Gwain and take notes.

The reason is best summed up as a quote: "Maidens in a high tower? Damsels in distress? I've been waiting for this day."

Be a bit of a joker, a trickster. Always be the one with a smile on his face and a laugh just behind the vocal cords, even when the situation is most dire. But when push comes to shove, your friends know that they can count on you.

[Laserlight]

Any other thoughts on paladins who can avoid being completes asses?

Depends on whether you're trying to play a Stereotypical Sanctimonious Holier Than Thou Killjoy--in which case, the answer is "no, not really"...

or if you're trying to play a decent guy who is kind, generous, wants to help people, and follows his religion's laws even when they conflict with his personal inclinations ("I could really use a willing wench...um...a bottle of whiskey ... argh, no, I'd feel guilty about that too... I'll guess I'll just go curl up and try to sleep")--in which case, sure.

[Psyren]

Just write into your backstory that your church or god commanded you to adventure with these schlubs for the greater good. You can even roll your eyes or grouse very openly when they start giving into their greedy impulses. This should give you enough leeway to overlook the minor things. If they actively try to do something evil you'll still have to draw the line, at which point you can take it up with them OOC.

Also, at your first opportunity, be sure to get this. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-faithfulness)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Be good, be holy, be righteous, and don't be a jerk about it. Don't be petty about it. Who cares that the rogue tends to lie every other sentence, when there are freaking demons running around? That, and being good and righteous doesn't mean that you're stupid. Mercy and compassion note that everyone deserves a little slack, and it can help them come around in the end.

I mean, everyone seems to think that being good and being a jerk are two things that go hand-in-hand. In reality, being a jerk goes hand-in-hand with acting good. Think of the people in your life who are good people, who believe in something, whom you respect for that belief, even if you don't agree. Figure out why you respect them, despite their apparent opposition to you.

Take notes from the Dresden Files' Michael Carpenter. He's deeply religious, and he's also humble. He gets bothered when Harry cusses, but Harry tends to cut back on it because he respects Michael as a person. Be the person whom they respect, not the person whom they accolade, and remember that they may very well have a better grasp on holiness than you do, even if you're throwing around Smite Evil.

Also, look up the Four Classical Virtues of Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude. Those can be solid guidelines of how to play a strongly moral character who isn't defined by a rigid code.

[Nerd-o-rama]

When in doubt, play the main character from Due South.

Or if 90's screwball cop shows aren't your thing, I guess the most recent cinematic version of Captain America works too.

[Man on Fire]

My point is that freedom in D&D is very much a CG concept, not a LN concept.

you could make it work as LG concept, I mean, when LG guy is fighting against LE Empire, what stops him from fighting against the freedom of the opressed? if he thinks of freedom as divine right given by gods, wouldnt he found opressive rules despicable? You know, something among the lines "If a child steals for hunger, what right we have to judge? Or are you saying that you are God himself? That you have the right to decide of life and death simply because you're a duke? And you call yourself a noble?".

[Zubrowka74]

Go lookup The Book With No Name (http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Livre_sans_nom). There's a character in there named "Rodeo Rex", self-described as "God's Hitman". He could be viewed as a pally, Tarrantino style.

[hiryuu]

They made an entire tv series about a Paladin everyone likes. He was a bald guy and everyone thought he was awesome. A shapeshifting demon kept showing up to make fun of him, but he never broke his moral code. It was called Star Trek: The Next Generation.

[Gnaeus]

If they actively try to do something evil you'll still have to draw the line, at which point you can take it up with them OOC.


While I do not disagree, I would do this much sooner. Talk to the party OOC first. This advice goes for any character who is particularly holy or diabolical.

Make sure they are cool with your concept. If they are not, you have much bigger problems.

If there is a borderline character with whom you see conflict, try to work out an IC reason why he will not kill you. Best example is Raistlin/Caramon/Sturm. Raistlin will not murder his brother, he respects his brothers opinion, and while he might think Sturm is a liability sometimes, he will not murder him in his sleep or ditch him, because of Caramon.

If you can't work out with other PCs a justification for them playing with an X, where X is a (Paladin/necromancer/kleptomaniac rogue/frenzied berserker/any other character likely to indulge in party conflict) don't play it. Maybe try for a deal where they agree that you can play that thing in next campaign and they will build characters that can deal with it.

[Corlindale]

The idiot in bliss. INT has always been the paladin's dump stat, and in Pathfinder so is WIS. This paladin is a lovable dumbass, casual and generally happy go lucky as he goes through life doing good. There's decent odds his allies can sneak a lot of crap past him, as he's incredibly trusting and pretty freakin' gullible. What he can't help but realize is not kosher on the part of his party, he steers lightly away from, playing on the fact that he's a generally nice, well liked guy.

I played this guy throughout most of Carrion Crown. A young, idealistic and rather gullible halfling - no ranks in Sense Motive, and Wisdom as his lowest stat.

He was a nice guy, dedicated to the forces of good, but also convinced that pretty much everyone else (except undead monstrosities, of course!) were pretty nice people. He thus remained blissfully oblivious of our chaotic neutral sorceror's various attempt to increase her power, complete with her descent into evil and her turning to vampirism at the end.
He was still an obstacle to the party occasionally, of course - but that's also what being a paladin's about, when they really can't behave. He forced them to restore a 100.000 gp jewel they accidentally stole back to its proper owner, for example, and he was (spoiler for chapter V in Carrion Crown) very much against working with the vampires, being a paladin of Lathander.

[TopCheese]

Just write into your backstory that your church or god commanded you to adventure with these schlubs for the greater good. You can even roll your eyes or grouse very openly when they start giving into their greedy impulses. This should give you enough leeway to overlook the minor things. If they actively try to do something evil you'll still have to draw the line, at which point you can take it up with them OOC.

Also, at your first opportunity, be sure to get this. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/m-p/phylactery-of-faithfulness)

That item should be a class feature, I mean your god is already watching your every move. Apparently since you can fall at any moment your god or an agent of your god is literally watching you at all time.

Hmm a guardian angel that follows you around and talks to you when you are about to screw up... You could call it Blackwing if you wanted :p.

[ClockworkSun]

One thing to keep in mind is that, while a Paladin must be LG, they can worship a deity one alignment step away from theirs; i.e., a LN or NG deity. Find one you like that could offer a slightly different Paladin than the usual.

My Paladin dumped Int and Wis and worships Shelyn, the PF goddess of art, beauty, and love. The result is a Paladin who admires inner and outer beauty, and is forgiving and determined. Sure, she tends to rush in a little too quickly sometimes and trust too easily, but once you've subdued the enemies you can subdue, it's fun encouraging them to renounce their crooked ways to take up painting or poetry.

[DrDeth]

When in doubt, play the main character from Due South.

Or if 90's screwball cop shows aren't your thing, I guess the most recent cinematic version of Captain America works too.


Both are good ideas.
Hospitaler. Healing the party. Now, you’re their best buddy.

[dspeyer]

There are a lot of well done paladins in literature to take inspiration from. I'll second The Knights of the Cross from The Dresden Files. A particularly notable scene is after Harry beats up Cassius:



"It had to be done," I said to Michael. My voice sounded cold. "He's alive. It's more than he deserves."

"Perhaps," Michael said. "But what you did, Harry. It was wrong."

A part of me felt sick. Another part felt satisfied. I wasn't sure which of them was bigger. "You heard what he said about Shiro. About Susan."

Michael's eyes darkened, and he nodded. "It doesn't make it right."

"No. It doesn't." I met his eyes. "Think God'll forgive me?"

Michael was quiet for a moment, and then his expression softened. He clasped my shoulder and said, "God is always merciful."

"What you did for him was actually quite generous," Sanya said philosophically. "Relatively speaking. He might be hurt, but he is, after all, alive. He'll have a nice, long while to reconsider his choices."

"Uh- huh," I said. "I'm a giver. Did it for his own good."

Sanya nodded gravely. "Good intentions."

Michael nodded. "Who are we to judge you?" His eyes flashed, and he asked Sanya, "Did you see the snake's face, right when Harry turned with the bat?"

Sanya smiled and started whistling as we walked through the parking lot.


Other well-written paladins include O-chul and Hinjo here on OotS and Bahzell in The War God series. (http://www.baen.com/series_list.asp?letter=W#WarGod)

[Andreaz]

One thing to keep in mind is that, while a Paladin must be LG, they can worship a deity one alignment step away from theirs; i.e., a LN or NG deity. Find one you like that could offer a slightly different Paladin than the usual.

My Paladin dumped Int and Wis and worships Shelyn, the PF goddess of art, beauty, and love. The result is a Paladin who admires inner and outer beauty, and is forgiving and determined. Sure, she tends to rush in a little too quickly sometimes and trust too easily, but once you've subdued the enemies you can subdue, it's fun encouraging them to renounce their crooked ways to take up painting or poetry.Paladins who need to worship a deity at all are the exception. As far as the game is concerned a paladin could worship Urgathoa (http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Urgathoa) and keep on his LG business just fine.

[Susano-wo]

I want to reiterate what others have said (be righteous..just don't be a jerk about it), with a few things i want to point out thrown it.
1. don't confuse things that are Good/Lawful with traditional American/Austrailian/Chinese/whatever mores. For instance there is nothing that says that finding a willing wench has to be evil, and certainly no absolute moral prohibitions on drinking.

Now, your own moral compass may differ, and I guess you'll have to decide what to do with that on your own :D

2. It might be helpful to imagine your strictures as a specific calling. Not that you are the pinnacle of righteousness, but that your code of conduct is something specific that your god/soul/etc has called you to do.
And even if you see your vows and lifestyle as an attempt to be the pinnacle of righteousness, others aren't necessarily called to that--and that's ok! Bartimus over there might have a gambling problem, but he is always there to help his friends, and is kind and courteous to everyone he meets. Even so far as sure, you know Snake steals, and that's wrong[and you would stop him if you saw him doing so], but no one is perfect, and he helped that orphan last week. Hell he's saved your life numerous times!

Nowthat last part might now be RAW[at least not if Snake steals enough to be Evil], but its certainly in the spirit, if you ask me

[Kelb_Panthera]

Of note: While I'm not sure about the PF version, in the standard 3.5 paladin's description the section on the CoC is seperate from the associates section. There is no mechanical consequence for traveling with an evil companion as long as you don't explicitly or implicitly condone evil actions. If he commits an evil act and you're neither there to see it/stop him nor responsible to whomever he's harmed, you're under no obligation to so much as comment on it, much less take retribution, depending on the severity of the act. Ideally, he'd make sure you didn't know about it, IC, so that it would be a non-issue.

Travelling with evil characters isn't the best idea in the world, but it doesn't violate the paladin's code; though it may lead to violations if the paladin or the evil character isn't careful.

[Fibinachi]

Last time I was travelling with a paladin, it was a female paladin of a nature god.

She was kind, efficient, made jokes and tried to help people.
She also:

boozed it up in every tavern (to deal with the horrible stuff she had seen)
Had a perchant for winding up in the beds of NPC's
Didn't mind the occasional thievery
Walked a fine line between proud and simply arrogant.


The thing about paladin's and the Lawful Good alignment is that you can argue the philosophical underpinnings endlessly.
It tends to go over easiest if you assume that actions in and of themselves are alignment antagonistic unless extreme.
For instance... Stealing isn't wrong because stealing is wrong, it's wrong because the harmful consequences of grabbing stuff other people work for is negative and spreads misery (So the rogue is allowed to grab everything not nailed down in the evil wizard's lair)

Or, say, indiscriminate sexual relations isn't wrong because of some abstract notion of monogamy and lingering tensions about sexuality, if you lie and cheat and sneak about in the dark, you are not being honorable, and that is wrong. (A Paladin of Sune wouldn't be amiss to some cuddling, one thinks)
So the bard can, in fact, try to seduce that barmaid.

Yes, sure, taking blood from cows and using it in a three hour long ritual in the middle of the night could, in fact, be considered blasphemous and unholy, but the wizard is doing it to help the cause, so might as well let him.

Secondly, keep in mind that you don't have to follow a precept of Iron Law.
First transgression doesn't have to equal killing blow. What about reform, chances, conversation. People that don't know any better can't act any better.

If the rogue keeps stealing and stabbing, talk about the consequences of that behavior, attempt to make up for the things the rogue does without being sanctimonious about it.

After all paladin's of all shapes and sorts should have mercy as their first fall back. They are not zealots, they are divinely mandated protectors of all that is good and noble.

"Morality, when formal, devours".
As the saying goes.

Try think up ways to keep the party together using the lawful good characterization as a reason rather than a hindrance. If the rest of the party is up to no good shenanigans, hey, maybe sticking around to gently steer them elsewhere is better than murdering them or getting argumentative.

If the rogue keeps stealing, hey, maybe mention offhandedly that night while camping that you don't have issues with the nicking of stuff, just restrict it to people your internal radar says are Evil anyway.

Ultimately, avoiding Lawful Stupid is pretty much the best thing you can do. Paladins might have to act and be honorable, but practicing some Code-aikido can come in handy.

( Can't stab enemies in the back? Stab their kneecaps.
Can't kill unarmed foes? Carry daggers to give them a fair chance.
Can't kill? Get Merciful, get hempen rope.
Not allowed to willingly allow evil acts? Mention how you can't condone activities that are actually evil, so you will go inspect this fine rustic architecture for the next half an hour...)

Read Terry Pratchett's Men at Arms, getting some characterization about Carrot Ironfounderson.

Or, if desperate, realize that you are the mandated warrior of a very specific deity, look up your deity's particular portfolio and domain and if anything, anything, is even slightly out of context for that god?

Then it's a jurisdiction issue that falls to some other authority.

"Sun, Light, Strength, and Healing" for Pelor, yeah?

Well, in that case you are an authority on the honorable behavior in battle, against undead, when showcasing strength and when healing those in need.

Anything else is outside of your jurisdiction. No power. No chance. No care.
The rogue can steal, the wizard plot and the bard seduce because all of those things fall under the auspice of some other Paladin and Deity combination.

No one can make you fall for not doing things that your god has nothing to do with.

[ThiagoMartell]

When it comes to builds, everyone loves Magical Trevor the Oradin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257365).

[TopCheese]

Has anyone considered becoming a Communist Paladin?

>:D

[El Muchacho]

I'd play a pally one of two ways:

1. forgiving, merciful, but just. You may not yourself use guile and treachery, but if others use them to good ends, you'd forgive it. Protecting the innocent always, using violence as a last resort but nonetheless an acceptable means to a good end. Important here is also that a lot of people forget that "lawful" doesn't necessarily mean you give half a crap about actual laws, it can mean that the only code you strictly follow is your own. It's completely reasonable that, for example, property laws aren't a thing to you, and so you wouldn't even bat an eyelash at someone stealing unless it could actually harm the victim. You'd probably try to guide the party toward good actions, and if they do something evil, talk to them, find out why, etc.

1. DESTROY ALL EVIL AT ANY COST! Basically your only concern is eradicating evil. Stealing? Selfish, but not necessarily evil. This one works even better with, say, C/N companions, since you may not even care about anything they do, as long as it's not super evil, as long as your party is working toward a good goal. You'd probably begin to see your companions as simple tools toward your goal of destroying the evilest of evil. Even if you do perceive them as evil, as long as you tried to stop any evil actions you have the chance to, you could simply have a mental list of your priorities, and keeping them alive to help you combat the invading forces of Asmodeus might do, overall, more good than killing them now for kicking an orphan.

[Ramshack]

I have a played a LG Halfling Paladin for a few years now. Worked from level 1 and am 16 now. I have fun creating over the top characters with memorable personalities. But I think the trap most people fall into is creating the overbearing for great justice all praise my god paladin.

Paladin's are holy warriors yes, they request aid from their gods to assist them in battle, guide their decisions and bestow upon them holy magic. However this does not mean they are devoid of fun, personal goals, a sense of humor etc.

My Paladin is a military strategist (with ranks in Knowledge: Military Tactics and Strategy) simply for the roleplaying aspect. He has the Leadership feat and force of personality, yet has no cohorts with exception to his loyal riding dog. Link a golden retriever who the gods (the dm) has blessed with half celestial template and literally glowing gold fur for being such a loyal companion, and as a reward for surviving too many ridiculous situations something of his HD should have survived.

Needless to say he is an advisor to the cities we are established in, provides counsel for friends when facing moral dilemmas, he will drink a few with his friends, and gamble in a legal establishment, he will even accompany his friends to brothels (that are legal) and simply not partake and ensure his comrades safe return.

Out adventuring he will offer to assist those in need, perhaps not a gun ho personal quest for redemption for everyone he sees, but advice, a prayer, a spare gold piece to those in need. In combat he will not slay a man once he has surrendered, or if he is unarmed (unless the guy is beating him sensless with fists or with hands shooting fire or other elements)

But you can walk the line of morally gray areas too, as long as your not breaking the law of a particular town or if you're in the wilderness when there is no law, then stick to your own moral code as close as possible) Even when making deals with shady characters you can benefit the group with a detect evil or sense motive check, and talking your friends out of trouble with your diplomacy skills always work, as long as you make them atone later ;)

Anyway there are a ton of ways to be a contributing member of the party, with out holding back others fun. Not all holy warriors are self righteous and overbearing.

[Icewraith]

I was beaten to Carrot Ironfoundersson but I'll second it.

Whenever I read the character I think "this guy is/would be the best Paladin ever!"

[Susano-wo]

I'd play a pally one of two ways:

1. forgiving, merciful, but just. You may not yourself use guile and treachery, but if others use them to good ends, you'd forgive it. Protecting the innocent always, using violence as a last resort but nonetheless an acceptable means to a good end. Important here is also that a lot of people forget that "lawful" doesn't necessarily mean you give half a crap about actual laws, it can mean that the only code you strictly follow is your own. It's completely reasonable that, for example, property laws aren't a thing to you, and so you wouldn't even bat an eyelash at someone stealing unless it could actually harm the victim. You'd probably try to guide the party toward good actions, and if they do something evil, talk to them, find out why, etc.



2 things. first,
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#lawVsChaos. This has nothing to do with your own personal code. It has to do with respect for authority, and willingness to obey authority.

2nd. Also, there is nothing in there that prevents guile and or treachery, as long as it doesn't break your word (IE the classic villain "you'll get what's coming to you" screwage) or lying. The last part might hamper it quite a bit, depending on how strictly you define lying (from "as long as I tell the literal truth I can omit/mislead" to must be fully honest), but you can still use cunning and guile and be lawful

[only1doug]

The last time I played a paladin I (and the Party) had great fun, The character was called Sindar the Loud and his alignment was Lawful Loud.

He didn't have a volume control, couldn't sneak up on anything and at the drop of a Hat would introduce himself (at full volume) as Sir Sindar, Paladin of Heironeus.

His intelligence wasn't massive, he wasn't a master of tactics, he simply fought evil and tried to convince wrongdoer's to accept redemption (which they would often agree to, just to save their eardrums from more "talking").

[Deophaun]

True. But what I'm saying doesn't necessarily empower people. He is lawful to the idea that no one should be forced to do something they don't want too. He has no problem stabbing a slave trader, as well as the lawful good innkeeper who makes his son work at the inn.
But you're forcing the slave trader to die. Did the slave trader want to die? He didn't? Well, I guess you fall, then.

A Paladin of True Freedom would just be a holy paperweight.

[Wise Green Bean]

Wow, a lot of great responses, thanks.

I want to shift the conversation a little. Some people have addressed it a bit, but it's probably going to be my biggest problem, didn't exactly specify in the original post.

It's technically not planned as an evil campaign. But a lot of players seemed to have taken it that way. The closest person alignment-wise will likely be a CG tiefling, and there very well be some evil folk straight up out for vengeance and world domination. It's a rather brutal setting, famine and slavery and casual murder, with a few people on the edges trying to make their own way and not proving much better than the primary authorities.

So, dealing with a largely neutral to evil party? We're basically working for the same thing, and they're generally not outright cruel, but...I'm a paladin. And any character I make will not find the 'I find this reprehensible and will take no part in this, and will do so behind that building over there' approach morally acceptable.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Save the paladin for next time. There's almost no way it's going to work out well in the game you just described.

Try a pious templar, from complete divine, and dedicate yourself to a morally neutral god. You still get the "I'm a character of tremendous conviction" without getting murdered in your sleep inside the first week.

[SlyJohnny]

There are two directions I normally go.

a) I play a paladin who is very young and eager, possibly newly inducted, who grew up with one or all of the party. She can't conceive of the party doing anything horribly malicious, and will, in all cases, give them the benefit of the doubt or assume they have adequate justification for their behavior that she doesn't know about. If confronted with an apparently unjustified small sin (stealing, etc) she'll encourage the person to do the right thing, and naively wonder why they've stolen, talking to them about it. Are they not getting a big enough share of the party treasure? Are they having financial troubles they've not told her about? Do they need help? If they just give the item back, she'll help them however she can.

If confronted with something truly immoral, her first reaction will be shock, followed by a "What's wrong, why are you acting this way, are you okay?" rather than a Smite Evil. She'll intervene violently to protect innocents and suchlike, of course but the point is not to lead with moral outrage or physical aggression, and talk things out.

b) I play a paladin who is old and grizzled and tired. Doesn't have the energy to yell at kids for stealing bread anymore. He's fought demons, and knows there are bigger fish to fry than the party rogue's larcenous activities. If the party does something immoral out of your eyeshot, let it slide, maybe elect to fail a Sense Motive check or two. I played this in one Silent Hill-ish game where I got the whole party in trouble after I chose to save a girl who was going to be sacrificed. She was kind of a liability, and eventually, the party barbarian threw her to some enemies that were chasing us to aid in her escape. I could have chosen to cross-examine her about it, but instead I consoled her and said that I was sure she did everything she could, and really it was my fault for leaving the girl alone, etc etc.

[Fibinachi]

Seconding Kelb_Panthera here.

If you intend to be playing a paladin and you already see this as being much more problematic that merely "Alignment clashing", you should stop having intentions of playing a paladin.

It will crash too much into the walls of other people's fragile aligments.

I mean, you could! And sometimes it works too.

Your problem is this sentence:
" And any character I make will not find the 'I find this reprehensible and will take no part in this, and will do so behind that building over there' approach morally acceptable."

You already seem to know and think the party will do reprehensible things, so you are setting your character up for getting stabbed by also acknowledging that you cannot willingly play a paladin that turns a blind eye to capricious cruelty. Bonus points for being basically good, but it is a party relation problem.

It's just that "t's technically not planned as an evil campaign. But a lot of players seemed to have taken it that way. " doesn't jarr too well with paladins. Explorer other options. How about a chavaliar that's fairly pious or a cleric of a more neutral god? You can play a magus (in pathfinder) and fluff it as more of a divinely inspired warrior than a magician.
How about a fighter that just happens to have taken a single rank in "Knowledge Religion"?

Of course, if you don't want to quit and intend to carry on with this mad quest then, well, clearly you have the paladin mindset down well.

But you're going to have to get creative. And as a minimum, talk with your DM about the implications of alignment and how he intends to react to transgressions and whether your paladin hasto be LG.
Because the first time the party talks about using poison to deal with the problems (And they will, about four seconds into the campaign), you fall.

Paladin of Freedom, CG works very, very well in these kind of circumstances. If the world is a nasty, frontier and free justice sort of place you should consider watching an old Clint Eastwood western.
Play a mysterious stranger archetype paladin.
Show up, smite evil, help a lady, disappear. Be kind and helpful and friendly, but focus on avoiding harm and helping others, being charitable and humble and less about how other people conduct themselves.

Example:

Rogue: "Okay, so I will sneak up behind the guard and knock him out. Then we can open the gate and make it into the compound. Actually, what if we poison their well now that we're inside?"

Cleric of HerpDerp: "Brilliant idea! And I will cast unhallow and desecrate! Perfect!"

Paladin: "I cannot condone sneaking about in the dark, so I will wait until you have opened the gates and then rejoin you. If we enter the compound and poison the well, may I suggest a laxative of some kind? There is hardly any reason to be indiscriminate in our killing, and bowel movements will slow down our pursuers just as much as half of them being dead. And they'll be less angry"

Most importantly:

Do you want to play a paladin because playing a paladin is fun and being a divinely mandated warrior is a great career?

Or do you want to play a paladin because preaching and being superior is a great way of spending your time?

[Hopeless]

Out of curiosity has anyone asked about changing the Detect evil ability to detect lie?

I was thinking about a Paladin whose been effectively cursed with the ability to immediately tell he/she's being lied to, doesn't necessarily mean they know what the truth is only that it alerts them to the fact someone is lying.

The idea is that the only people this wouldn't work on are those this paladin has an emotional relationship with so that say for example his kids and wife could lie to his face and he wouldn't notice as this is the one limitation to counter how powerful this ability is.

Its just that every time I've played a paladin the ability to detect evil has either been subverted say by a Neutral aligned vampire or overwhelmed by the presence of evil when activated when by all rights that much evil should have had the dm letting the character know his "spider sense" is tingling rather than having them bowled over because they treat that ability as something that needs to be cast rather than the special ability its supposed to be.

Sorry been reading this thread and whilst a little off the topic I was wondering how that particular special ability was dealt with since I have seen very well played paladins and a particular awful one and have never heard anything said about how any of the paladin's special abilities are treated ingame.

[Gnaeus]

So, dealing with a largely neutral to evil party? We're basically working for the same thing, and they're generally not outright cruel, but...I'm a paladin. And any character I make will not find the 'I find this reprehensible and will take no part in this, and will do so behind that building over there' approach morally acceptable.

Yeah. This is bad. This has moved beyond "Don't play your paladin like a ****" and into "Don't play characters that will not function in the rest of the party."

Pious templar or cleric of a neutral or evil deity might work here. So could the evil paladin variants. Playing a LG paladin in a party of evil guys bent on vengeance and world domination is begging for a fight that you are almost certain to lose.

I would talk to the players OOC, and say: This is the character I want to play. I can see that he will not mesh well with your characters. Promise me that I can play him in the next game and that you will support me.

[Susano-wo]

yeah, depending on how Evil evil is, it could possibly work, but this seems doomed to clash with the rest of the party, and given that your character is the odd one out, it'll be you that has to change chars, whether thorough player discussion, or just getting shanked :smalltongue:

[Blackhawk748]

Well i am reminded of a Pally a friend played, his name was Logan and he was my characters brother, ironically we had both been thieves and he got caught and lost a hand, then stayed with the church and became a paladain. the best way to describe him was RAI, he basically said screw your "no exception, high and mighty, evil-dar using paladin" concept. Basically just remember that rules have different interpretations. and when in doubt think batman