Rogue/Spellthief

[socball22]

I'm thinking of taking levels in scout but I want to look for other possibilities before I corner myself. I have a great plan for a rogue/scout possibility but I also like the idea of a spell thief. I am leaning towards a ranged character which would still work since I could sneak attack from 30 ft. in but is there any synergies I haven't found?

[eggs]

Almost all of Spellthief's features only improve with more spellthief levels, and they always want more. It doesn't deal well with dips outside the class, and it doesn't offer much to dips into the class (except for certain tricks with Master Spellthief and casters wanting to crank their caster levels).

[Cranthis]

Eggs covered it all.

[HunterColt22]

As mentioned you need to be very precise when dealing with spell thief, because they only advance in their abilities with more spell thief levels. Dips are hit or miss, out of it, there is only one that I can think of that might even remotely be useable, but eh, into it again is meh considering by then you are just doing a gimmick build with it, or you wanted some way to get SA, and there are better options.

rogue3/spellthief17. Nets you your fourth level spells, evasion, ability to steal up 8th level, SLAs, SA of 7d6, an extra trapfinding to trade away if wanted, steal energy resistance 20, steal spell resistance, and absorb to name most of it and if you trade out trap sense for penetrating strike, you can now deal with a lich to name the most annoying thing to see possibly as a spellthief, far more easily and effectively instead of just sitting there twiddling your thumbs, and praying somehow you out live his spell er day quota. Again though, this build is very frail and quite frankly you have better combinations to use if wanting a sneak mage type.

Though personally, I see this build as being possibly very viable with the right feat and stat acquisition. Personally I would throw whisper gnome on here as the race, even given the cha penalty, simply because of silencing strike, and the ability to steal from them and shut them up all at once.

[Urpriest]

Ranged sneak attack is tricky. What gimmicks are you planning to use to get it?

[Gwendol]

Agreed, better to use ranged as a back-up option and not ignore melee sneak attack.

[socball22]

I'm not sure where I was going with it, it was just a backup option. After reading this, I think I'll look into some other things. Thanks!

[Zovc]

As much as I like the Spellthief flavorfully, the Beguiler pretty much does everything the Spellthief could ever want to. Why bother stealing people's spells when you can put them to sleep (or worse) and still have 9th level spells at later levels?

[HunterColt22]

As much as I like the Spellthief flavorfully, the Beguiler pretty much does everything the Spellthief could ever want to. Why bother stealing people's spells when you can put them to sleep (or worse) and still have 9th level spells at later levels?

Agreed, very situational, but you can't deny the fun of stealing a wizard's ninth level spell and blowing it back in their face.

[Grendus]

If the wizard has 9th level spells, you shouldn't be able to get a sneak attack on him. If you do, your DM is playing him as a moron. Even if he isn't securely on his own private demi-plane, the sheer number of ways to prevent sneak attacks by the time you get 9th level spells (celerity, immunity, contingency, etc) are absurd, and to assume a guy with at least 19 int wouldn't take any of those options is ridiculous.

Spellthief's best use is in sneak attack Gish builds. Depending on your interpretation, Master Spellthief can be read to allow you to steal spells of higher level than your Spellthief class levels, you just can't keep them. They're still denied to the enemy spellcaster*. Combined with being a full caster yourself, you're much more of a threat to an enemy spellcaster than the Spellthief ever could be.

One of my favorite sneak attack gish builds goes something like Trickster Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10. The key thing is the Trickster gets the spells known and Spells/day of a Bard, which lets them learn Mage Hand (for Arcane Trickster)**. A level 4 Beguiler meets the Unseen Seer divination requirement between Detect Secret Doors and Detect Thoughts, and has all the skill requirements as class skills. Ends up with 19/20 Beguiler casting, 8d6 sneak attack, and permanent Nondetection. The Sneak Attack ability covers the Beguiler's overall lack of offensive options, while the Beguiler's spellcasting allows everything from Invisibility to Blindness to open up Sneak Attacks. Master Spellthief allows you to deny any enemy spellcaster vulnerable to Sneak Attacks their higher level spells, as well as pick off the occasional useful low level one (Alter Self, Grease, etc) for your own use.

*Check with your DM before you try this trick, as it is a questionable interpretation of the rules. It's pretty clear the designers of the class/feat didn't expect players to merely dip Spellthief and take PrC's, so your DM would be well within his rights to deny it. Still a decent trick though, there are some abusive level 1 spells.

**If the DM doesn't allow Dragon Mag content, you can spend a feat on Extra Spell to add it to your list. Not the best use of a feat, but the alternative is either losing a caster level for Sorcerer/Wizard or taking a different PrC like Daggerspell Mage which also loses a caster level and gets less Sneak Attack, plus a bunch of less-than-ideal dagger themed abilities.

[HunterColt22]

If the wizard has 9th level spells, you shouldn't be able to get a sneak attack on him. If you do, your DM is playing him as a moron. Even if he isn't securely on his own private demi-plane, the sheer number of ways to prevent sneak attacks by the time you get 9th level spells (celerity, immunity, contingency, etc) are absurd, and to assume a guy with at least 19 int wouldn't be immune is ridiculous.

Spellthief's best use is in sneak attack Gish builds. With Master Spellthief you can steal higher level spells but not keep them, meaning that your sneak attacks can deny enemy casters their higher level spells. Combined with being a full caster yourself, you're much more of a threat to an enemy spellcaster than the Spellthief ever could be. Look at it this way - you could either rely on stolen spells or have a full compliment of your own. Which would you choose?

:/ You make it sound as if the players the dm has are morons also by using that logic. If a player chooses to play a spellthief at that optimization, even with the counters the dm has made, I am damn sure he will have ways around them as well. Also having a high intelligence does not suddenly mean you are omnipotent and know everything, wisdom would play a role in that as well, and if I remember correctly for a wizard that is usually a non priority stat due to it only boosting their already good will saves.

Also to answer your second question, honestly it would depend on what I had intended for the character and how his development was going for me to decide that course of action. Personally as of right now? I would choose the thief option; Knowing it is sub par still doesn't stop someone from using it.

[Grendus]

If the wizard has 9th level spells, he has an Int of 19 at minimum. He's level 17, at minimum. I'm sorry, but Spellthieves are not effective in late game at all unless the DM is not playing the enemies to their full potential. They have lackluster spells, class features that don't effect over half the enemies in the game and can be shut down with an armor enhancement, dozens of spells, or several common creature types (Undead, Construct, Plant, etc). JaronK put it best, the Spellthief is like a cat that was specially evolved with longer claws and teeth to kill elephants. At the end of the day, you still suck at killing elephants.

I agree partially on the second part though, I overstated the boundary between optimization and concept. If your character concept is absolutely dependent on stealing enemy spells and throwing them back then the Spellthief is competent enough at that. But it's best use is to open up Master Spellthief and access rogue/caster PrC's. The sneak attack gish I edit-posted earlier would wipe the floor with a Spellthief 20.

[HunterColt22]

If the wizard has 9th level spells, he has an Int of 19 at minimum. He's level 17, at minimum. I'm sorry, but Spellthieves are not effective in late game at all unless the DM is not playing the enemies to their full potential. They have lackluster spells, class features that don't effect over half the enemies in the game and can be shut down with an armor enhancement, dozens of spells, or several common creature types (Undead, Construct, Plant, etc). JaronK put it best, the Spellthief is like a cat that was specially evolved with longer claws and teeth to kill elephants. At the end of the day, you still suck at killing elephants.

I agree partially on the second part though, I overstated the boundary between optimization and concept. If your character concept is absolutely dependent on stealing enemy spells and throwing them back then the Spellthief is competent enough at that. But it's best use is to open up Master Spellthief and access rogue/caster PrC's. The sneak attack gish I edit-posted earlier would wipe the floor with a Spellthief 20.

True, you are right in the fact that it would beat a pure spellthief rather easily on it's own, but your lynchpin for the build specifically relies on the DM giving half of it the okay, one being the interpretation of Master Spellthief and what it does; Two, probably being the bigger of the these enlargements is dragon magazine involvement which many DMs will laugh at and say no to. :/ Both are situational builds, yours just demands more steps than others to get off the ground. Is it more powerful? God yes it is, is it more practical, probably not, and again, half of what you gave as examples can be rectified though by other ACFs, the player's own spells, granted they are limited but can get the job done in a pinch, or just his thinking. Again though the OP asked for synergies, personally yours is raw power, mine is far more theme. I think that is about it besides the normal ones of daring outlaw and the like.

[Grendus]

True, you are right in the fact that it would beat a pure spellthief rather easily on it's own, but your lynchpin for the build specifically relies on the DM giving half of it the okay, one being the interpretation of Master Spellthief and what it does; Two, probably being the bigger of the these enlargements is dragon magazine involvement which many DMs will laugh at and say no to. :/ Both are situational builds, yours just demands more steps than others to get off the ground. Is it more powerful? God yes it is, is it more practical, probably not, and again, half of what you gave as examples can be rectified though by other ACFs, the player's own spells, granted they are limited but can get the job done in a pinch, or just his thinking. Again though the OP asked for synergies, personally yours is raw power, mine is far more theme. I think that is about it besides the normal ones of daring outlaw and the like.

Even without Trickster and Master Spellthief, it's still a solid build. You may have to spend a feat or dip another spellcasting class for Mage Hand, but that's still 18/20 Beguiler casting, you still get 9ths. Although to be honest, without Master Spellthief it might be a better idea to replace Spellthief with Rogue or even Sneak Attack Fighter for the hit dice and BAB.

As for theme, I take offense to that. It follows very logically that a Spellthief might focus on learning illusion spells to aid his theft, then would transition into a PrC that advanced both of his proficiencies. You're treading dangerously close to Stormwind territory, just because a build is powerful doesn't mean it wouldn't be in-character.