Divine Caster Assist

[Suteinu]

Is ther a divine caster class that uses Int or Cha instead of Wis as its base spellcasting attribute?

[Suddo]

Archivist from Heroes of Horror. Int based you get cleric spell list and can add to your prayer book any divine spell that you find from scrolls.

[VGLordR2]

For Intelligence, there is the Archivist, from Heroes of Horror. There is also a feat called Academic Mage, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Intelligence.

For Charisma, there is the Shugenja, the Favored Soul, and the Sha'ir (which is also an arcane spellcaster). There is also a feat called Dynamic Priest, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Charisma.

There's probably more out there, but that's all I've got from the top of my head.

[eggs]

This list (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=8664) gives a rundown on all the 3e casting classes. Most divine are Wis-based, but there are a fair number of Charisma-based divine casters floating around.

[IdleMuse]

...There is also a feat called Academic Mage, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Intelligence.

... There is also a feat called Dynamic Priest, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Charisma.

Please note that these feats are from a third party source, and only change the casting stat wrt. bonus spells and maximum spell level, NOT DCs. So I think, Spirit Shaman is the only class that can be made back into SAD wrt. spellcasting with Dynamic Priest.

[VGLordR2]

Please note that these feats are from a third party source, and only change the casting stat wrt. bonus spells and maximum spell level, NOT DCs. So I think, Spirit Shaman is the only class that can be made back into SAD wrt. spellcasting with Dynamic Priest.

Oops, my mistake. I didn't realize that they were third party.

[Clistenes]

For Intelligence, there is the Archivist, from Heroes of Horror. There is also a feat called Academic Mage, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Intelligence.

For Charisma, there is the Shugenja, the Favored Soul, and the Sha'ir (which is also an arcane spellcaster). There is also a feat called Dynamic Priest, which changes the casting stat of a divine class to Charisma.

There's probably more out there, but that's all I've got from the top of my head.

I have always wondered how difficult is for the Archivist to find new spells: I doubt the churches like to have that guy copying their divinely-granted spells in his spellbooks, and even if he conceals his purpose when buying the scrolls, the clerics probably usually don't sell high-level ones to the unfaithful.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Two things about the archivist.

One, his save DC's are still wis based, IIRC.Int only determines max spell level and bonus spells. I did not recall correctly. Archivist is completely int based.

Two, if an archivist has any more difficulty finding new spells than a wizard it's because your DM is stealth-nerfing you.

Being divine casters, there's no reason an archivist shouldn't be a member of a religious organization. If that organization is the church of a god of magic and knowledge (say Boccob for instance) there's no reason to believe that the entire cleric list wouldn't be readily available and, unless yours is the only archivist around, it wouldn't be unreasonable for spells outside that deity's domains to be available from other archivists that belong to the same organization.

[Psyren]

One, his save DC's are still wis based, IIRC.Int only determines max spell level and bonus spells. I did not recall correctly. Archivist is completely int based.

They use Wis for bonus spells actually. They get enough base that you don't need a huge score there though, and you get access to buffs like Owl's Insight.

[Clistenes]

Two things about the archivist.

One, his save DC's are still wis based, IIRC.Int only determines max spell level and bonus spells. I did not recall correctly. Archivist is completely int based.

Two, if an archivist has any more difficulty finding new spells than a wizard it's because your DM is stealth-nerfing you.

Being divine casters, there's no reason an archivist shouldn't be a member of a religious organization. If that organization is the church of a god of magic and knowledge (say Boccob for instance) there's no reason to believe that the entire cleric list wouldn't be readily available and, unless yours is the only archivist around, it wouldn't be unreasonable for spells outside that deity's domains to be available from other archivists that belong to the same organization.

That's the other thing that bothers me about Archivists: Who is empowering them? A god? A demon? Spirits? Celestials? Nature? Their own faith? We don't know...

We know they can be associated to a church, but that isn't essential and they don't even have to be particularly devout, so they don't seem to be "real" priests.

If a god is empowering them, their own church would be their provider of scrolls (and other churches would probably deny him their rare and shiny domain spells), but if he is empowered by anything else than a god, most churches would dislike him.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's the other thing that bothers me about Archivists: Who is empowering them? A god? A demon? Spirits? Celestials? Nature? Their own faith? We don't know...

We know they can be associated to a church, but that isn't essential and they don't even have to be particularly devout, so they don't seem to be "real" priests.

If a god is empowering them, their own church would be their provider of scrolls (and other churches would probably deny him their rare and shiny domain spells), but if he is empowered by anything else than a god, most churches would dislike him.

Two flaws in this argument. Paladins are in the same boat and churches are not an entirely united body unless they're very small.

The church of Boccob (whose title is the uncaring, btw) is entirely too massive for two temples in dramatically different regions to be similar in anything but dogma. The same holds true for the church of any greater deity, and that's just a matter of logistics and local cultural influence without even getting into church politics.

Like I said, if the archivist is having a tougher time getting new spells than a wizard it's because the DM didn't have the stones to just tell his player he didn't want an archivist in his game.

Also, see black-market and churches of gods of commerce. Nevermind the archivist asking around at the church of the god who espouses ideas similar to his own.

If the wizard is having a tough time getting new spells too then everything's kosher; but there's no excuse for one to have easier access than the other in the overall, generally speaking.

[GoatBoy]

Non-core base classes are kind of wonky. Favored soul and spirit shaman use one stat for save DC's and another for minimum spell level available and bonus spells. For some reason, archivists use one for save DC's and minimum spell level available, and another for bonus spells.

[Clistenes]

Two flaws in this argument. Paladins are in the same boat and churches are not an entirely united body unless they're very small.

Paladins are empowered by the gods in many campaigns, so they are as part of the church as Clerics are. When they aren't empowered by a deity, they are empowered by the "Power of Good" (I have always claimed that the Archons are the one empowering those Paladins) so a Good Deity who upholds Good will feel helpful towards them.

Also, even Paladins who aren't directly empowered by a deity tend to be roleplayed as devout.

And anyway, Paladins don't threaten the Cleric's niche.

The Archivist, on the other hand, is empowered by an unknown force that isn't alignment-based and probably isn't a deity, and since he/she can fill the same niche as a Cleric, could be seen as a threat to the god's influence over mortals.


The church of Boccob (whose title is the uncaring, btw) is entirely too massive for two temples in dramatically different regions to be similar in anything but dogma. The same holds true for the church of any greater deity, and that's just a matter of logistics and local cultural influence without even getting into church politics.

If the Archivist is a servant of Boccob, fine, he will be able to learn their spells without difficulty. The same goes if he serves any of the other gods of wizardry or knowledge, like Oghma, Deneir, Thoth, Mynstra or Azuth. He may even be able to barter or buy from their churches, since they are probably sympathetic to his activities.

But what if there isn't a god of magic or knowledge in your campaign, or they are secretive ones?

Also, other people won't be so willing to share their spells: Druids will probably feel that sharing their spells would weaken them (they have many powerful spells that only they can cast); the same goes for the Domain spells of most churches save those few I mentioned earlier (why would a Cleric of say, Tempus, share his War Domain spells, that give him/her and edge over other Clerics, with a servant of Boccob?).


Like I said, if the archivist is having a tougher time getting new spells than a wizard it's because the DM didn't have the stones to just tell his player he didn't want an archivist in his game.

Well, since I don't like high-level magic shops too much, I think that Wizards should get most of their new spells from the spellbooks of defeated enemies or the hoards of monsters. The problem with Archivist is that the Clerics the party defeat won't carry around all the spells they know written in a book.


Also, see black-market and churches of gods of commerce. Nevermind the archivist asking around at the church of the god who espouses ideas similar to his own.

The black market and the churches of gods of commerce could allow him/her to get the common clerical spells, but the rare high-level domain spells would be more difficult: The high-level clerics able to cast them are usually the higher-ranking members of the clergy, who are the most interested in protecting the secret weapons of the church.

And again, what bothers me most is not knowing WHAT or WHO grant them their power. I would really like a canonical answer.

[Psyren]

And again, what bothers me most is not knowing WHAT or WHO grant them their power. I would really like a canonical answer.

Divine power exists independently of gods (except in Faerun.) Ur-Priests, Clerics of causes, Sha'irs, even Druids to an extent are proof of this. And the fact that divine magic follows some of the same rules as arcane magic - e.g. susceptibility to AMF/dispel, and accessibility via UMD - means that the gods either can't or won't completely prevent outside access/interference either.

It should therefore not be surprising that there are individuals who, through sufficient study, learned how to "cut out the middle-man," so to speak. If a divine spell can be recorded and then faked by a person with no piety whatsoever, the spells themselves must contain a power that doesn't require piety to access.

Heroes of Horror does mention that many Archivists have deities (unlike Ur-Priests), but that they typically see their success at acquiring new magic as evidence of their god's approval of their lifestyle, rather than the other way around.

[Slipperychicken]

That's the other thing that bothers me about Archivists: Who is empowering them? A god? A demon? Spirits? Celestials? Nature? Their own faith? We don't know...


They're Divine Wizards, Divine spells need not come from Gods. Archivists learn, memorize, and cast their spells through careful study of magic, not by kneeling down and suckling magic from some smug Outsider.

Clerics beg for their magic, Sorcerers are born with it, Wizards and Archivists go out and take it.



If a god is empowering them, their own church would be their provider of scrolls (and other churches would probably deny him their rare and shiny domain spells), but if he is empowered by anything else than a god, most churches would dislike him.

I don't know where you're getting this idea, since all kinds of classes don't get power from Gods. Churches don't need to hate Wizards, or Sorcerers, or Beguilers, or Fighters, or Crusaders, or Ideal-Clerics. Archivists are no different in this regard, they have powers which don't come from Gods.

"You HERETIC! You're protecting the innocent without the express permission of our God PELOR?!? BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!" :smallfurious:

[Clistenes]

They're Divine Wizards, Divine spells need not come from Gods. Archivists learn, memorize, and cast their spells through careful study of magic, not by kneeling down and suckling magic from some smug Outsider.

Clerics beg for their magic, Sorcerers are born with it, Wizards and Archivists go out and take it.

Arcane power is part of the D&D universe, like gravity or heat: You just take and shape it, but Divine power always need to be taken from somewhere else.

Clerics => Receive it from gods.
Ur-priests => Steal it from gods.
Sha'ir => Their genie allies steal the spells from the gods.
Druids => Either they receive it from the Gods of Nature, or Nature itself is an (impersonal) divine force they can access.
Rangers => Same as druids.
Shugenjas => Receive it from elemental spirits (kami).
Shamans => Receive it from spirits.
Paladins => Either receive it from gods, or from the "Power of Good" itself (the archons? Mount Celestia itself?).
Favoured Souls => Receive it from gods or are descended from divine proxies and minions.

We aren't explained were the Archivists take their mojo from. If we were told that they take it from Boccob, or from minor spirits, or from the Planes, I would be OK, but they don't explain anything.


I don't know where you're getting this idea, since all kinds of classes don't get power from Gods. Churches don't need to hate Wizards, or Sorcerers, or Beguilers, or Fighters, or Crusaders, or Ideal-Clerics. Archivists are no different in this regard, they have powers which don't come from Gods.

All those people use their own stuff. The Archivist is an outsider that wants to steal their divine-granted mojo and use it for his/her own purposes.

[eggs]

Is there any reason to believe that the Archivist's spellcasting comes at the cost of resources deities or other divine casters would have otherwise been able to use? If not, "stealing" has negative connotations which don't actually apply to the class.

[Psyren]

Clerics => Receive it from gods.

Not all of them do.


Ur-priests => Steal it from gods.

Actually, they steal it from whatever source the gods draw from as well. That's the assumption behind the class - if no such source exists in your campaign, the class does not function.



Sha'ir => Their genie allies steal the spells from the gods.

The gen actually goes to "the elemental powers"; These may not necessarily be gods. More importantly, the Sha'ir is not held to any code of conduct or reverence to said powers.

Most of the rest are okay though I personally think the distinction between "the power of nature" and "unknown divine force" is pretty lean as it is. And as you pointed out for Favored Souls, they don't necessarily have to be descended from or ruled by deities specifically.



We aren't explained were the Archivists take their mojo from. If we were told that they take it from Boccob, or from minor spirits, or from the Planes, I would be OK, but they don't explain anything.

All those people use their own stuff. The Archivist is an outsider that wants to steal their divine-granted mojo and use it for his/her own purposes.

Well, if you asked an Athar, the regular divine casters would be the real thieves. It's a matter of perspective :smallsmile:

The Archivist arguably "uses his own stuff" more than any other caster on that list. The Archivist is basically the hacker that knows Pelor's password, for instance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Arcane power is part of the D&D universe, like gravity or heat: You just take and shape it, but Divine power always need to be taken from somewhere else.

Clerics => Receive it from gods.
Ur-priests => Steal it from gods.
Sha'ir => Their genie allies steal the spells from the gods.
Druids => Either they receive it from the Gods of Nature, or Nature itself is an (impersonal) divine force they can access.
Rangers => Same as druids.
Shugenjas => Receive it from elemental spirits (kami).
Shamans => Receive it from spirits.
Paladins => Either receive it from gods, or from the "Power of Good" itself (the archons? Mount Celestia itself?).
Favoured Souls => Receive it from gods or are descended from divine proxies and minions.

We aren't explained were the Archivists take their mojo from. If we were told that they take it from Boccob, or from minor spirits, or from the Planes, I would be OK, but they don't explain anything.



All those people use their own stuff. The Archivist is an outsider that wants to steal their divine-granted mojo and use it for his/her own purposes.

Your problem lies in the fact you're taking cannon fluff suggestions as absolutes.

As others have already pointed out, your examples are only true for -some- of the members of those classes. Also, if nature and good get disembodied sources of power, why not knowledge?

Also of note; cloistered clerics and clerics that choose not to adventure (advancing via overcoming political challenges most likely) are both things. Why would an archivist have any trouble at all impersonating one of these classes when buying a scroll? He can show a depth of knowledge on religious matters, he can cast divine spells from the cleric list, and with a quick dip in a PrC he can even turn undead. Only under the closest of scrutiny would his non-cleric-ness be apparent. If he's under the effect of eagle's splendor when he walks into the shop he could even do a reasonable impression of a favored soul. Unless he actually whips out his prayer book (which may not even be a problem. Why wouldn't a holy man walk around with a holy text?) or actually declares himself an archivist in the scroll-seller's presence how's the guy supposed to know?

As I pointed out in another thread. If one type of caster decides to impersonate another how's anyone to know?