Using em-dashes in conjuction with commas

[Arranis Thelmos]

Now I know that there is such as thing as Google, however I can't find any information on my issue.

Generally em-dashes replace commas, but what about when adding additional information in a list?

Example: Fitzgerald uses Gatsby as a tragic parody of the American Dream through his lost love--Daisy--, rise to wealth, corruption, and reception by his peers.

Or later on: The green light in which Gatsby believed in for so long stands for several things--Daisy, love, acceptance, wealth--; but now that Gatsby is gone it seems to no longer have any significance.


Tl;dr: how do I use em-dashes in the middle of a list?

[factotum]

I don't see the dashes are needed in either example sentence.

"Fitzgerald uses Gatsby as a tragic parody of the American Dream through his lost love Daisy, rise to wealth, corruption, and reception by his peers." makes perfect sense with no em-dashes at all.

"The green light in which Gatsby believed in for so long stands for several things--Daisy, love, acceptance, wealth; but now that Gatsby is gone it seems to no longer have any significance." works fine without the em-dash in front of the semi-colon.

[Arranis Thelmos]

Great, thank you very much!

[Flickerdart]

People using two hyphens instead of an em-dash fills me with great and mighty typographic rage. — ←Here's an em dash. The next time you need one, copy that one. If anyone told you that using two hyphens is an acceptable replacement, they were lying to you.

[Arranis Thelmos]

It fixes it automatically when I'm in a proper word browser, so I'm not too terribly worried. Why aren't two hyphens an acceptable replacement? All the English teachers I've had said it was.

[Flickerdart]

That's because English teachers are only the second most unreasonable about proper punctuation. Typographers come in at a solid number 1.

[snoopy13a]

People using two hyphens instead of an em-dash fills me with great and mighty typographic rage. — ←Here's an em dash. The next time you need one, copy that one. If anyone told you that using two hyphens is an acceptable replacement, they were lying to you.

In informal writing--a forum post or an e-mail, for example--two hypens are fine. It is only in formal writing that the actual em-dash is required. It's simply because many writers like using em-dashes, and keyboard designers, for some strange reason, did not include it on the keyboard. I suppose that's when you let computer scientists--and not writers--decide key placement :smalltongue:.

[Story Time]

...with humility directed to Flickerdart...

The solid em-dash line is best used in formal letters and important, professional, matters. Scientific papers are one possibility.

For my-self, I find the double-dash to be more clear ( especially to those who are not familiar with English punctuation; non-Anglican speakers and typers, for example ). Please under-stand, Arranis, the reason why the em-dash exists is because it was meant to be used instead of adding yet-another-comma. So while commas and em-dashes can be used in a single sentence, they should not be used right next to each other. It's a challenge to the typer to find a way to make it work.

[nedz]

Hold the Alt key down
Type 196 on the numeric key pad
Release the Alt key


Result: em─dash

[Inglenook]

Alt+196 is actually a character for drawing boxes (─).

The correct input for the em-dash is Alt+0151 (—), at least on Windows. It's longer and a bit higher than the box line.

[Zrak]

That's because English teachers are only the second most unreasonable about proper punctuation. Typographers come in at a solid number 1.

And woe unto those who confuse fonts with typefaces.

[SiuiS]

So the use of them em-dash ( — ) is to work like an aside? I thought that was the en-dash ( – ), and the em-dash was for such things as when someone is suddenly cut off while speaking?

Note I only found out what these were called, and that they actually did have specific uses other than aesthetic, about a week ago.

[Winter_Wolf]

What I really want to know about the em-dash, is why is there no dedicated key for it on any keyboard I've ever seen? We have these |{}~ but unless the word processor has an auto fix for "--" it's irritating to work around.

I'm no fan of the numeric keypad for anything other than ten-key and gaming, and certainly not for things that I use in the middle of normal typing. (I'd be happy to have a "compose" key on my keyboard if it meant I could type in —, þ, Æ, Đ, Ø, Å normally. Maybe it could replace the Windows key, which is mostly useless.

[nedz]

Lack of demand.

(The following is Windows specific, but other OSs will be similar)
The codes generated by the hardware are mapped by the OS by a table. If you were to set your keyboard to French, say, via the control panel then [I]QWERTY would map to AZERTY etc. If you experiment with the Alt Gr key then you will be able to generate less used keys, depending upon the table you selected. E.g. Alt GR 4 generates € on a UK keyboard.

Each application can over-ride this in its own message table, so its no use blaming MS ─ though developers rarely change this, except for function keys, because of standardisation.

So it can be easily done ─ though not usually by the user.

[snoopy13a]

What I really want to know about the em-dash, is why is there no dedicated key for it on any keyboard I've ever seen? We have these |{}~ but unless the word processor has an auto fix for "--" it's irritating to work around.

I'm no fan of the numeric keypad for anything other than ten-key and gaming, and certainly not for things that I use in the middle of normal typing. (I'd be happy to have a "compose" key on my keyboard if it meant I could type in —, þ, Æ, Đ, Ø, Å normally. Maybe it could replace the Windows key, which is mostly useless.

Another problem with the numeric keypad is laptop users do not have one.

Perhaps the strangest aspect of the keyboard is the semicolon's location. Why does it get the prime real estate of a home key? Maybe it should swap places with the period or comma?

[Kindablue]

If it helps, this is what Strunk & White says:



8. Use a dash to set off an abrupt break or interruption and to announce a long appositive or summary.

A dash is a mark of separation stronger than a comma, less formal than a colon, and more relaxed than parentheses.

His first thought on getting out of bed — if he had any thought at all — was to get back in again.

The rear axle began to make a noise — a grinding, chattering, teeth-gritting rasp.

The increasing reluctance of the sun to rise, the extra nip in the breeze, the patter of shed leaves dropping — all the evidences of fall drifting into winter were clearer each day.

Use a dash only when a more common mark of punctuation seems inadequate.

Her father's suspicions proved well-founded — it was not Edward she cared for — it was San Francisco.

Her father's suspicions proved well- founded. It was not Edward she cared for, it was San Francisco.

Violence — the kind you see on television — is not honestly violent — there lies its harm.

Violence, the kind you see on television, is not honestly violent. There lies its harm.

[Jimorian]

So it can be easily done ─ though not usually by the user.

Well played, sir!

[GnomeFighter]

Lack of demand.

(The following is Windows specific, but other OSs will be similar)
The codes generated by the hardware are mapped by the OS by a table. If you were to set your keyboard to French, say, via the control panel then [I]QWERTY would map to AZERTY etc. If you experiment with the Alt Gr key then you will be able to generate less used keys, depending upon the table you selected. E.g. Alt GR 4 generates € on a UK keyboard.

Each application can over-ride this in its own message table, so its no use blaming MS ─ though developers rarely change this, except for function keys, because of standardisation.

So it can be easily done ─ though not usually by the user.

You could not use the numeric key pad. You might not use it but it is used allot by anyone working with numbers, which is allot more people than use obscure things like em-dash (something I have never hear of until today)

[Inglenook]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D_Z-D2tzi14/S8TRIo4br3I/AAAAAAAACv4/Zh7_GcMlRKo/s400/ALOT.png

[Serpentine]

Is that what they're called? I use dashes a fair bit to sort of interrupt myself in the middle of a sentence - an aside or digression, if you will, often with a clarification on some small point - before continuing it on. I have no idea whether it's correct, but it feels natural and sensical to me.

[Zrak]

Another problem with the numeric keypad is laptop users do not have one.

Perhaps the strangest aspect of the keyboard is the semicolon's location. Why does it get the prime real estate of a home key? Maybe it should swap places with the period or comma?

I think its placement is wholly justified; the semicolon can clearly be used in place of any other punctuation mark.

[factotum]

Is that what they're called?

There are two types of dashes used in typography--the en-dash, which is the shorter one most people use to separate compound words, and the em-dash, which is a longer one used to separate parts of sentences. (I used both in that sentence, I just noticed...wasn't intentional, honest!).

[Dumbledore lives]

Another problem with the numeric keypad is laptop users do not have one.

Perhaps the strangest aspect of the keyboard is the semicolon's location. Why does it get the prime real estate of a home key? Maybe it should swap places with the period or comma?

I can't say if this is the actual reason but when programming in most languages, prominently C and derivatives, the semicolon is needed at the end of near every line. It's the same for stuff like {,}, and |.

[factotum]

I can't say if this is the actual reason but when programming in most languages, prominently C and derivatives, the semicolon is needed at the end of near every line. It's the same for stuff like {,}, and |.

It isn't the reason--just do a search for pictures of old mechanical typewriter keyboard layouts, which obviously pre-date any requirement to accommodate programming languages, and you'll find that the key to the right of L has always traditionally been the colon and semi-colon. No idea why that's actually the case, mind you, it just *is*.

[Heliomance]

Personally I just use the humble hyphen to serve that purpose - Word auto-corrects to the em dash if it's surrounded by spaces, but a single hyphen works perfectly fine for me.

[Winter_Wolf]

Personally I just use the humble hyphen to serve that purpose - Word auto-corrects to the em dash if it's surrounded by spaces, but a single hyphen works perfectly fine for me.

True, Word does, but a lot of other programs don't. And no, not everyone has or uses Word, despite it being the Big Dog. I don't know if my Dell keyboard is actually a US standard 104-key keyboard, but I have TWO of the following: Alt key, Windows Key (really, 2 of them?), Ctrl key. I also have a context menu key. Of these, the only one I can understand the possible need for is the right side Ctrl key. Hands up anyone who uses the Windows key so much they'd ever need more than ONE.

I'd use an em-dash a lot more if I had a dedicated key for it, or at least something that didn't require me to hit five keys to produced it (assuming Alt+0151). The double dash (-- oh, hi there) is kind of a poor substitute, especially when you (well I do anyway) get flack for using it. Then again these are also the same people who should be sent back to remedial English classes to learn how to use a gorram apostrophe.

[Savannah]

It isn't the reason--just do a search for pictures of old mechanical typewriter keyboard layouts, which obviously pre-date any requirement to accommodate programming languages, and you'll find that the key to the right of L has always traditionally been the colon and semi-colon. No idea why that's actually the case, mind you, it just *is*.

When typewriters were first designed, hitting a key too hard would jam it. So they designed the keyboards so that the most common letters would go with the weaker fingers and the least common letters under the strongest fingers. The location of the semicolon is just an artifact of that.

[Arranis Thelmos]

Okay... Wow...I leave this thing unattended for a few days and it explodes. Nice to know a bit about the history of the keyboard though. :smallsmile:

[Flickerdart]

There are two types of dashes used in typography--the en-dash, which is the shorter one most people use to separate compound words, and the em-dash, which is a longer one used to separate parts of sentences. (I used both in that sentence, I just noticed...wasn't intentional, honest!).
And the hyphen, and the minus sign. :smalltongue:

[Zherog]

In Word you can create an em-dash by holding down ctrl and alt and pressing the minus key on your number pad. Similarly, you can produce an en-dash by holding just ctrl and pressing the minus key on your number pad.

In RPG publishing, there's three different dashes.

Hyphen: (-) This guy is the one we're mostly used to, and sits to the right of the zero key. This is used as the dash between compound words, like up in my first paragraph.

Em-Dash: (—) This one has been pretty well described in this thread. Note that some publishers (again, in the RPG world only - don't know about others) do not want spaces on either side of the em-dash. others specifically do. For example, from kindablue's post:

His first thought on getting out of bed — if he had any thought at all — was to get back in again.

Some publishers want those spaces. Others:

His first thought on getting out of bed—if he had any thought at all—was to get back in again.

Take 'em right out!

En-Dash: (–) This little guy is ever so slightly bigger than a hyphen. RPG publishers like it in place of a minus sign, as well as a separator on lists. For example:

1d20–5

or

1–20%: blah blah blah

[snoopy13a]

In Word you can create an em-dash by holding down ctrl and alt and pressing the minus key on your number pad. Similarly, you can produce an en-dash by holding just ctrl and pressing the minus key on your number pad.

In RPG publishing, there's three different dashes.

Hyphen: (-) This guy is the one we're mostly used to, and sits to the right of the zero key. This is used as the dash between compound words, like up in my first paragraph.

Em-Dash: (—) This one has been pretty well described in this thread. Note that some publishers (again, in the RPG world only - don't know about others) do not want spaces on either side of the em-dash. others specifically do. For example, from kindablue's post:

His first thought on getting out of bed — if he had any thought at all — was to get back in again.

Some publishers want those spaces. Others:

His first thought on getting out of bed—if he had any thought at all—was to get back in again.

Take 'em right out!

En-Dash: (–) This little guy is ever so slightly bigger than a hyphen. RPG publishers like it in place of a minus sign, as well as a separator on lists. For example:

1d20–5

or

1–20%: blah blah blah

Whether or not to surround an em dash with spaces depends on the style guide. The Chicago Manual of Style instructs no spacing whereas journalistic style guides instruct spacing.

Spacing after sentences is another style question. The CMS instructs one space after a sentence but many people prefer two. In this matter, follow whatever your boss says :smalltongue: Whether or not to use the Oxford comma is another style question. CMS supports the Oxford comma.

Overall, the main thing is consistency. For example, if you are a company that I have done business with, it is acceptable to send me an e-mail (there is a current style debate of whether to use "e-mail" or "email" by the way) with the shortcut "--" in lieu of an em dash. However, it is not acceptable to use the shortcut and an em dash in the same sentence--that is, don't do this—as it makes the e-mail look sloppy.

Out of curiousity, do the RPG publishers release their house styles so that submitters can conform their work to them? Or do the publishers just have copy editors deal with it?

[nedz]

It fixes it automatically when I'm in a proper word browser, so I'm not too terribly worried. Why aren't two hyphens an acceptable replacement? All the English teachers I've had said it was.


Personally I just use the humble hyphen to serve that purpose - Word auto-corrects to the em dash if it's surrounded by spaces, but a single hyphen works perfectly fine for me.


True, Word does, but a lot of other programs don't. And no, not everyone has or uses Word, despite it being the Big Dog. I don't know if my Dell keyboard is actually a US standard 104-key keyboard, but I have TWO of the following: Alt key, Windows Key (really, 2 of them?), Ctrl key. I also have a context menu key. Of these, the only one I can understand the possible need for is the right side Ctrl key. Hands up anyone who uses the Windows key so much they'd ever need more than ONE.

I'd use an em-dash a lot more if I had a dedicated key for it, or at least something that didn't require me to hit five keys to produced it (assuming Alt+0151). The double dash (-- oh, hi there) is kind of a poor substitute, especially when you (well I do anyway) get flack for using it. Then again these are also the same people who should be sent back to remedial English classes to learn how to use a gorram apostrophe.

Actually this is a Word Auto-Correct Option, which is turned on by default. Which means that you can turn it off.:smallamused:

[Heliomance]

True, Word does, but a lot of other programs don't. And no, not everyone has or uses Word, despite it being the Big Dog. I don't know if my Dell keyboard is actually a US standard 104-key keyboard, but I have TWO of the following: Alt key, Windows Key (really, 2 of them?), Ctrl key. I also have a context menu key. Of these, the only one I can understand the possible need for is the right side Ctrl key. Hands up anyone who uses the Windows key so much they'd ever need more than ONE.

I'd use an em-dash a lot more if I had a dedicated key for it, or at least something that didn't require me to hit five keys to produced it (assuming Alt+0151). The double dash (-- oh, hi there) is kind of a poor substitute, especially when you (well I do anyway) get flack for using it. Then again these are also the same people who should be sent back to remedial English classes to learn how to use a gorram apostrophe.

The latter clause of my post was intended to convey that I don't consider the auto-correct necessary - I consider the hyphen adequate whether or not it gets auto-corrected to an em dash.

[Flickerdart]

Spacing after sentences is another style question. The CMS instructs one space after a sentence but many people prefer two.
These people are wrong. In the age of typewriters, two spaces was correct when typing due to fixed-width characters. Two spaces in books has never been correct. In modern computing, where Word is capable of emulating a book's careful typesetting automatically, a space is not a fixed width character, and is automatically adjusted for optimal texture. Putting in two spaces leaves huge, gaping holes in body copy, because you're ordering the program to add in a second helping of an already inflated character.

[snoopy13a]

These people are wrong. In the age of typewriters, two spaces was correct when typing due to fixed-width characters. Two spaces in books has never been correct. In modern computing, where Word is capable of emulating a book's careful typesetting automatically, a space is not a fixed width character, and is automatically adjusted for optimal texture. Putting in two spaces leaves huge, gaping holes in body copy, because you're ordering the program to add in a second helping of an already inflated character.

What if you're using Courier?

Ha, what am I saying. Everyone uses 12 point Times New Roman . . .

[Anarion]

So the use of them em-dash ( — ) is to work like an aside? I thought that was the en-dash ( – ), and the em-dash was for such things as when someone is suddenly cut off while speaking?

Note I only found out what these were called, and that they actually did have specific uses other than aesthetic, about a week ago.

Em dash for long asides, en dash for numerical ranges.


Is that what they're called? I use dashes a fair bit to sort of interrupt myself in the middle of a sentence - an aside or digression, if you will, often with a clarification on some small point - before continuing it on. I have no idea whether it's correct, but it feels natural and sensical to me.

Personally, I like using parentheses (it sort of feels like I'm whispering to the reader in secret) to interrupt myself in sentences.


I think its placement is wholly justified; the semicolon can clearly be used in place of any other punctuation mark.

If karma exists, you will pay for that. The semicolon has an actual use in separating two distinct but connected thoughts.


There are two types of dashes used in typography--the en-dash, which is the shorter one most people use to separate compound words, and the em-dash, which is a longer one used to separate parts of sentences. (I used both in that sentence, I just noticed...wasn't intentional, honest!).

There are three. The hyphen is what you want for connecting words and is the standard character on a keyboard because we use hyphenated words all the time.

The en dash is for numerical ranges mostly and doesn't come up much.

The em dash is the one that separate out thoughts or asides in sentences.

Here they are for comparison (hyphen, en dash, em dash)
-
–
—


These people are wrong. In the age of typewriters, two spaces was correct when typing due to fixed-width characters. Two spaces in books has never been correct. In modern computing, where Word is capable of emulating a book's careful typesetting automatically, a space is not a fixed width character, and is automatically adjusted for optimal texture. Putting in two spaces leaves huge, gaping holes in body copy, because you're ordering the program to add in a second helping of an already inflated character.

It's not wrong if the person outranks you and demands a certain style.

[Story Time]

It's not wrong if the person outranks you and demands a certain style.

...Anarion beat me to it. :smalltongue: I was just about to mention that every copy editor I have ever met demanded Courier and double-spaces between sentences.

:smallredface:

[snoopy13a]

...Anarion beat me to it. :smalltongue: I was just about to mention that every copy editor I have ever met demanded Courier and double-spaces between sentences.

:smallredface:

Interesting . . . I use single-spacing if it is up to me, but I had a summer internship where I had to use double-spacing (it also required Word Perfect--yuck). Honestly, it's probably better to get in the habit of using two spaces, because it is very easy to edit a paper from double-spaces to single-spaces. All one has to do is to use the find/replace feature--find [double space] and replace with [single space].

[Flickerdart]

It's not wrong if the person outranks you and demands a certain style.
Nobody outranks Elements of Typographic Style.


Interesting . . . I use single-spacing if it is up to me, but I had a summer internship where I had to use double-spacing (it also required Word Perfect--yuck). Honestly, it's probably better to get in the habit of using two spaces, because it is very easy to edit a paper from double-spaces to single-spaces. All one has to do is to use the find/replace feature--find [double space] and replace with [single space].
Or you can find and replace [. ] with [. ].

[Serpentine]

Personally, I like using parentheses (it sort of feels like I'm whispering to the reader in secret) to interrupt myself in sentences.I tend to use brackets for an aside that's sort of more removed, a bigger digression, from the main sentence (or, for example, as in this case, when it's a more complicated digression. It's probably bad style, but you can even have multiple sentences within it! Whereas the dashes are for much shorter asides).

[Zherog]

Out of curiousity, do the RPG publishers release their house styles so that submitters can conform their work to them? Or do the publishers just have copy editors deal with it?

It seems, ironically, that the bigger the publisher the more likely they are to provide a style guide. Wizards, White Wolf, Paizo, and Frog God Games have all provided me with one at some point or another. But it's surprisingly consistent overall. Most want times new roman 12 for text, TNR 10 for stat blocks, no Oxford comma*, no spaces between text and em-dash, 1" margins around the entire page, and so on. There's slight differences -- which, of course, makes things annoying.

* I personally prefer the Oxford comma. It makes text more clear without really taking up any real space on the page.

[Story Time]

But it's surprisingly consistent overall.

That was a useful post. Thanks, Zherog.

I...might ask about Paizo quirks, but...I don't want to be a bother.