Dark Chaos Shuffle

[lunar2]

so, i was reading in another thread about what can and can't be traded out by these spells.

class based armor proficiencies are in:


ARMOR PROFICIENCY (LIGHT) [GENERAL]
You are proficient with light armor (see Table 7–6: Armor and
Shields, page 123).
Benefit: When you wear a type of armor with which you are
proficient, the armor check penalty for that armor applies only to
Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Pick
Pocket, and Tumble checks.
Normal: A character who is wearing armor with which she is not
proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all
skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.
Special: All characters except wizards, sorcerers, and monks
automatically have Armor Proficiency (light) as a bonus feat. They
need not select it.

relevant part bolded. classes that grant armor proficiency grant it in the form of a bonus feat. a similar clause is in place on medium and heavy armor proficiency.

elven martial weapon proficiency is in. it specifically is called out as bonus feats.

and, of course, anything that gives you bonus feats is in. legacy weapon + DCFS seems like infinite feats.

so, i have a question. what would you do with an elf VOP fighter 20 with 2 flaws that had a legacy item? just for clarity, lets say this elf retrained his flaw feats to be sacred vow and vow of poverty so there's no conflict with the legacy item.

7 feats from levels. 4 from elf, 2 from flaws, 11 from VOP, 11 from fighter, 3 from legacy item. what do you do with 38 feats?

[kitcik]

what do you do with 38 feats?

Riverdance.

[Arcanist]

what do you do with 38 feats?

Trade them all in for a Klondike bar.

[Morbis Meh]

Bet them all on black!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Skip all of that, cast Heroics, Shuffle that to a different feat, when Heroics ends the feat it granted is already gone so nothing is lost. The only limit to the number of feats you get is the minor XP cost of the Shuffle.

[mattie_p]

Skip all of that, cast Heroics, Shuffle that to a different feat, when Heroics ends the feat it granted is already gone so nothing is lost. The only limit to the number of feats you get is the minor XP cost of the Shuffle.

Make sure you take dodge as your first shuffled feat, and designate the DM as your opponent. Beware if he has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, as books will be heading in your direction.

Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

Are we stuck with 38 feats as a fighter? Fighter 20 isn't much to work with. Even with 38 feats, still not equal to, say, a warblade, much less almost any caster.

[nedz]

Bet them all on black!

But this ball normally lands on 0 ─ Rule 0.

[Arcanist]

Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

This is gtitp. We're always playing the cheesiest of games. :smalltongue:

[lunar2]

2 levels of monk gets 2 more feats (lose 1 fighter feat, gain 3 feats from monk).
40
i forgot to count armor and shield proficiencies, which is 5 more feats.
45
a 3 level dip in ranger after shuffling armor gets 4 more feats (lose another fighter bonus, gain track, endurance, combat style, light armor proficiency, and shield proficiency from ranger)
49

[toapat]

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

[Darius Kane]

Not this again...

[papr_weezl8472]

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

Point 1 is valid, point 2 I'm not going to touch. As to point 3: a character with a Weapon of Legacy can undergo rituals to attune to/unlock its power. Mechanically, the character is granted the Least, Lesser, or Greater Legacy feat upon completion of the proper ritual. It is not a power of the item itself.

[lunar2]

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.


1. where is feat rogue? we can add that in for some more feats.

2. nope. the spell just says you have to meet the prerequisites for the abyssal heritor feat, it says nothing about the feat you are replacing. i understand your position, but the spell doesn't actually say that, so while it may be RAI, it isn't RAW.

3. undergoing the legacy ritual actually gives you a bonus feat, if i was trying to trade out benefits equivalent to feats, i could get dozens of weapon proficiencies from fighter, and ranger, and monk. there's cheese (the spell combo we're referring to, for example), and then there's cheating.

[Randomguy]

I wonder what most feats you can get from class levels alone is...

Fighter 2/Wizard 1 (scribe scroll)/Monk 2/Feat Rogue 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Wu Jen 1/soulknife 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Psion 1/Swordsage 1/Crusader 1/ Swashbuckler 1/Master Thrower 5.

So that's feats from armour, 2 fighter feats, scribe scroll, 2 monk feats, IUS from monk, 2 feat rogue feats, 2 psywar feats, 1 metamagic feat (WuJen), Wild talent and wf (mindblade) from soulknife, 3 feats from domains or devotion feats from Cloistered Cleric, a bonus feat for Psion, proficiency with all shields including tower and exotic shields from crusader, weapon finesse with swashbuckler.

Plus the VoP and normal and legacy feats.

The five master thrower levels double all your feats by shuffling them all for weapon focus with thrown weapons and then getting Improved critical for all of them, which you can then shuffle away again.

So that's... Yeah I don't know how many feats. But quite a lot, especially if you armour shuffle after every class you take that grants armour proficiency.

And on top of that you get wizard, cleric, wu-jen and psion spell completion item access, and 4 attacks per round, and some spells and power points, and a mindblade, a familiar (or abrupt jaunt if you prefer) and a psicrystal, and maneuvers, and evasion (twice) and trapfinding and wis to AC and a few other things, and decent HP. You get more class features than a core fighter!

I suppose you could look through the every feat commoner thread for ideas.

[Spuddles]

Bet them all on black!

Always bet on black.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: Feat rogue can get +4 feats on fighter
2: Embrace the dark chaos doesnt work in that way, as it requires the granted feat to be legally allowed where it is going. Fighter/Feat Rogue bonus feats thus cant be used
3: Items confer the benefits of feats, not the feats themselves.

The bolded statement isn't going to fly with anyone until you can substantiate it. Until you show some kind of proof that feat-slots are a thing, they're not; and your argument fails for being based on something you made up. I'll happily agree that it's a reasonable houserule. I'll even tentatively agree that it may have been what was intended. It, however, is not in any way, shape, form, or fashion part of the actual RAW.

#3 depends on the phrasing for the item. Some items say that they give you the effect of the feat, others say you have the feat as long as the item is worn or wielded. Read the item's description carefully.

[toapat]

The bolded statement isn't going to fly with anyone until you can substantiate it. Until you show some kind of proof that feat-slots are a thing, they're not; and your argument fails for being based on something you made up. I'll happily agree that it's a reasonable houserule. I'll even tentatively agree that it may have been what was intended. It, however, is not in any way, shape, form, or fashion part of the actual RAW.

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

1: I just read through that whole section, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Even the part specific to retraining feats doesn't even mention anything of the sort. Assuming the section you're referencing did state or even imply what you claim it does, that would be a general rule regarding choices made when retraining, and it would only apply to retraining. Even if it could be applied outside of retraining, the specific wording of Embrace the Dark Chaos would override it per primary source.
2: Still invalid given 1 is still just something you made up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

1: Feats, once chosen and <Fluff for getting the feat>, do not Lose the restriction of what they can be. confirmed PHB2, Page 192-193
2: All prerequisites of the Abyssal Heritor feat, including providing a feat in exchange/to be replaced which does not have restrictions (such as those defined by Bonus Feats, Fighter, PHB pg 38) that exclude the choice of an abyssal Heritor feat at that level. Embrace the Dark Chaos, Fiendish Codex 1, pg 92, seemingly redundant line

Legacy Ritual: I thought you had to take, not recieve, the legacy attunement feats, i read it as feats granted through weapons, which can go both ways, but normally is granted the benefits of, not have

PHB2 and FC1 have no inherent relationship and casting the dark chaos spells isn't retraining. You're applying an unrelated rule to the spell.

Also, the line you're "quoting" there, doesn't actually appear anywhere on page 192 or 193 of PHB2. There is such a restriction on retraining feats, but there's nothing in the language in that section that suggests this is a reference to a default rule and not just part of the retraining system.

Your dead-wrong about the legacy feats. They're granted as bonus feats upon completing a legacy ritual and -never- have to be selected as a feat on character advancement. To use your own made-up idea, they effectively create a "feat-slot" for themselves when you complete the ritual and pay the fee.

[nedz]

Always bet on black.

No, no, no always bet on red. Unless you can quote a source.

[toapat]

PHB2 and FC1 have no inherent relationship and casting the dark chaos spells isn't retraining. You're applying an unrelated rule to the spell.

Also, the line you're "quoting" there, doesn't actually appear anywhere on page 192 or 193 of PHB2. There is such a restriction on retraining feats, but there's nothing in the language in that section that suggests this is a reference to a default rule and not just part of the retraining system.

Your dead-wrong about the legacy feats. They're granted as bonus feats upon completing a legacy ritual and -never- have to be selected as a feat on character advancement. To use your own made-up idea, they effectively create a "feat-slot" for themselves when you complete the ritual and pay the fee.

1: The line im quoting is alot simpler then im making it, as i said, it is the Seemingly redundant line in Embrace
If the subject does not qualify for the feat, the spell fails. The sentence right before that already said you select an abyssal heritor feat the target qualifies for. Missing this connection is a bit easy, but why would the prerequisite conditions change, if the target already qualifies for the feat? Because there is a new condition, which is providing a feat to be swapped. PHB2 retraining rules arent relevant to the order of how embrace works. what is relevant is the minor fact that they explain that Bonus Feat class abilities are always restricting the options for the feat choices they grant, or at the very least reactivated whenever a feat is interacting with (by replacing) the original feat

2: I said i was mistaken about the legacy feats, because i thought the feats being thrown out were weapon granted, not granted by ritual, feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

1: The line im quoting is alot simpler then im making it, as i said, it is the Seemingly redundant line in Embrace . The sentence right before that already said you select an abyssal heritor feat the target qualifies for. Missing this connection is a bit easy, but why would the prerequisite conditions change, if the target already qualifies for the feat? Because there is a new condition, which is providing a feat to be swapped. PHB2 retraining rules arent relevant to the order of how embrace works. what is relevant is the minor fact that they explain that Bonus Feat class abilities are always restricting the options for the feat choices they grant, or at the very least reactivated whenever a feat is interacting with (by replacing) the original feat

That's not even close to what it says:

"The subject immediately gains one
Abyssal heritor feat for which it
qualifies, chosen by you at the time
of casting. If the subject does not
qualify for the designated feat, the
spell fails."

You don't have to pick a feat it qualifies for, but it will only gain one for which it qualifies.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

That's the passage in question. It's the only passage anywhere in any WotC official book that ever makes mention of how replacing one feat with another works, outside of psychic reformation and the dark chaos spells. It does so completely within the context of the retraining system being presented in that book.

I defy you, toapat, to find anything in that passage that's even mildly suggestive of the idea that this is a reiteration of a default rule.

In fact, I invite anyone at all to interpret the quoted text as referring to a default rule of any sort, by use of logical reasoning.

Feat retraining is not relevant to the DCFS, or anything else to do with feats except when actually using the retraining rules.

Barring something, anything, that's actually a piece of rules text or logical reasoning based there-on, I'm done with this discussion. The evidence I've put foward speaks for itself.

There is no link between the feat retraining rules and any other piece of rules text.

There are no "feat slots" or anything similar.

The DCFS can swap any feat you have, by RAW, even though it's a horribly cheesy and unbalancing trick. Only the most high-op and cheesy games will allow it to function by RAW, otherwise it will almost certainly be banned or nerfed by a reasonable DM.

That's all there really is to say on this matter.

Edit: It occurs to me that toapat may be taking rules that are even further out of context to the issue at hand by referencing the class feature retraining rules. By those rules you can replace bonus feats with other bonus feats you would've qualified for, but those rules are even further removed from how feats work at the basic level, and have even less to do with the DCFS than the passage I quoted.

[toapat]

*Angry rant that misses the point*

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

[olentu]

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

So if feat retraining is not being used as rules that define how to trade out feats, then how can it be defining rules that define restrictions on how to trade out feats?

Well that, and the fact that you are using the common English version of perquisite instead of the the perquisites listed in the feat entries.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

Except it doesn't. It's RAW that says when you retrain feats you have to have qualified for the feat you're taking as a replacement at the time you took the feat being replaced.

You're saying that specific rule is a general rule, when it's not. The only general rule regarding feats is that you get one at 1st and every 3rd level. That's it.

The argument's not "it's a spell so the RAW doesn't matter" it's "It's a spell, so that completely unrelated bit of RAW for an optional subsystem doesn't apply." Specific trumps general. You're arguing one specific trumps another specific.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Feat Retraining is not being called up as the rules that define how to trade out feats.

It is being called out as a specific source that RAW, states clearly that the restrictions a feat might have been procured under never cease to exist, and by extension, the argument that DCFSing feats which were chosen under restricted conditions does not work.

The counter argument since has been "Oh, but it is a spell, and so RAW doesnt matter at all". By that logic, you dont need to trade out feats you have, you can just say, i throw out the feat gained at 2nd level through hitdice to receive my abyssal heritor feat.

Let's take the RAW:
You can exchange one of the feats you previously selected for another feat. If the new feat has prerequisites, not only must your character meet them in his current state, but you must also be able to show that he met them at the time you chose the previous feat.

And let's use an example character retraining a feat and following the above rule to the letter:

Mr. Fighter took Weapon Focus at his Fighter 1 bonus feat, a Fighter bonus feat slot. He wants to replace it with Skill Focus: Basket Weaving. Per the above RAW, he meets the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving in his current state, and he can show that he met the prerequisites for Skill Focus: Basket Weaving at 1st level when he chose Weapon Focus. It passes the RAW and it's permissible.

Everything you've been saying is absolutely invalid, you're making up rules. A character qualifying for a feat and a feat slot qualifying for a feat are two different things. If there were such a general rule on feat selection, Specific Trumps General per the Primary Source rules, so the specific effect of Embrace the Dark Chaos replacing any feat with any abyssal heritor feat would be an exception to that general rule. Even if feat-slot-qualification exists, Embrace the Dark Chaos specifies that the only limit in place is character-qualification, not feat-slot-qualification. Stop making up silly rules.

[toapat]

Except it doesn't. It's RAW that says when you retrain feats you have to have qualified for the feat you're taking as a replacement at the time you took the feat being replaced.

You're saying that specific rule is a general rule, when it's not. The only general rule regarding feats is that you get one at 1st and every 3rd level. That's it.

The argument's not "it's a spell so the RAW doesn't matter" it's "It's a spell, so that completely unrelated bit of RAW for an optional subsystem doesn't apply." Specific trumps general. You're arguing one specific trumps another specific.

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the spell because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the feat because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

I've already shown that this interpretation doesn't hold water even within the context of the retraining rules. You can retrain a Fighter bonus feat into one that's not available as a Fighter bonus feat, and as long as you met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you gained the feat that's being replaced, it passes the RAW test.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And now you are handwaiving the argument by saying that "it is a specific rule, not general". The specific is not the part im even using, as the specific has no relevance to the spell because one is defining the rules for the feat swap.

Thing is, that section itself also clarifies something that is not remotely clear at all in the core rules: That a Fighter: Bonus Feat is a class ability, and that the Feat granted only occupies the Fighter bonus feat. The restrictions that are imposed on aquiring the feat are always there, and so, while not actively called into service, will dropkick the heritor feat

Those rules clarify nothing. They add rules that didn't previously exist. This is even said by the introduction to that chapter. Before those rules were introduced, your feat choices were set in stone unless you were subject to a psychic reformation effect.

There are still no general rules for replacing feats, because it's only possible by employing either the retraining rules or using a spell or power to accomplish the desired effect.

You're taking a specific rule and saying that it's creates an implication, and that in turn that implication is RAW.

Implications that may or may not be inherent to a piece of RAW aren't RAW in and of themselves; if for no other reason then because implication isn't written anywhere.

It can't be part of the rules as written when it's not actually written.

[toapat]

I've already shown that this interpretation doesn't hold water even within the context of the retraining rules. You can retrain a Fighter bonus feat into one that's not available as a Fighter bonus feat, and as long as you met the prerequisites for the new feat at the level you gained the feat that's being replaced, it passes the RAW test.

Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.

[olentu]

Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.

Okay, you may have missed it the first time so allow me to say it gain. You are apparently not using the term prerequisite properly. Prerequisites are the things listed as a prerequisite in the feat descriptions. If you wish to claim that they are more than that you are going to need something to back it up.

[TuggyNE]

(even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

I have no desire to get involved in the futile feat prerequisite kerfuffle, but I do feel like making a minor correction: mindless creatures never get any feats from hit dice; they can only gain feats through racial bonuses (and those are rare).

[toapat]

Okay, you may have missed it the first time so allow me to say it gain. You are apparently not using the term prerequisite properly. Prerequisites are the things listed as a prerequisite in the feat descriptions. If you wish to claim that they are more than that you are going to need something to back it up.

One of the prerequisites of normally taking a feat is to have an "open feat" (or whatever the game terminology is). The examples for feat swapping are really bad in being clear. One of the restrictions/Prerequisites of feat swapping is you had to have been able to make that specific choice when you were that level (Ill give that the rules arent specific enough in the lvl 1 instance, although the "Must have been able to make that specific choice when that level" says no to me, that doesnt work). I, on the other hand, was not bringing them up because of that, but because it clarifies that Fighter's Bonus feats, are actually a class feature which grants you additional feats with which you have a restricted choice of what they are/can be, or that Feats retain the knowledge of their restrictions.


I have no desire to get involved in the futile feat prerequisite kerfuffle, but I do feel like making a minor correction: mindless creatures never get any feats from hit dice; they can only gain feats through racial bonuses (and those are rare).

/facepalm @ self, i forgot Oozes existed. interestingly they can be drowned and starved

[Darius Kane]

interestingly they can be drowned and starved
They eat and breath, so... yeah. >.>

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your example doesnt work, partly because you dont define the scenario enough, and partly because one of the prerequisites of that specific swap are that the feat to be swapped in, be able to be taken as a fighter bonus feat, but also because you cant have any fewer then 2 feats, if you have a fighter level (even No-int creatures, as far as i can tell, get one feat for their first hit die, while you have to have a minimum of 3 Int to have class levels without Houserule).

A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.

That's not what the RAW says, though. You only have to show that you met the prerequisites of the feat to be taken (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#prerequisites). A little bit below on that same page you'll find the heading Types of Feats, which is a completely different section from the prerequisites, and that's where Fighter bonus feats are separated from non-Fighter bonus feats. The rules on retraining makes no mention of matching the type of feat, only that you met the prerequisites for that specific feat at the level you intend to place it. The type of feat is irrelevant, and you can retrain Fighter bonus feats into non-Fighter bonus feats.

[toapat]

*snip*

*18 minutes of looking at the wrong rules, rulebook, and table for the counterpoint*

here is the thing: You actually are using the Class Feature Retraining rules, not the Feat Retraining rules when dealing with Fighter Bonus Feats (They are actually class features). So yes, you do have to actually meet the condition of "Is able to be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat".

Edit: Part of the point is that the restrictions being important to question whether they are maintained (and that the retraining section clarifies, they do), is that those restrictions still apply to Dark Chaos's check to see if the feat to be replaced is a legal option for being replaced. As most class feature feats are restricted, this means that DCFS cant hit them. Feat retraining is actually just for the HD granted 7

[Acanous]

Dark Chaos shuffling is something that DMs are going to houserule one way or the other if it actually comes up in game anyhow. I really don't see any sensible DM allowing someone to DCS away proficiency feats for say, metamagic or item creation. Fighter feats, I'd let someone swap. Come on, let melee have nice things once in a while.
But that's just ad-hoc DM fiat, so really doesn't hold water in a RAW debate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

*18 minutes of looking at the wrong rules, rulebook, and table for the counterpoint*

here is the thing: You actually are using the Class Feature Retraining rules, not the Feat Retraining rules when dealing with Fighter Bonus Feats (They are actually class features). So yes, you do have to actually meet the condition of "Is able to be selected as a Fighter Bonus feat".

Edit: Part of the point is that the restrictions being important to question whether they are maintained (and that the retraining section clarifies, they do), is that those restrictions still apply to Dark Chaos's check to see if the feat to be replaced is a legal option for being replaced. As most class feature feats are restricted, this means that DCFS cant hit them. Feat retraining is actually just for the HD granted 7

Embrace the Dark Chaos does not replace class features, it replaces feats. Anything applicable to replacing class features is irrelevant. The only part about the retraining rules that would have anything to do with Embrace the Dark Chaos would be the feat retraining rules, which I've clearly demonstrated would not hinder it in any way. Yes, you've been looking at the wrong rules this whole time, Embrace the Dark Chaos has nothing to do with retraining class features, and the rules for retraining class features have no influence over how Embrace the Dark Chaos works.

[toapat]

*Slander based on False information as opposed to actually reading the books*

No, the feat retraining rules dont apply to feats granted by Fighter bonus feats because they are covered by the prior Class Feature retraining rules. The feat retraining rules only handle the 7 hitdice granted feats, as well as ones granted by flaws

It also does change the way that the highly restricted feat slots which are specifically banned from taking the Abyssal Heritor feats normally interact with Embrace the Dark Chaos. Fighter Bonus Feats, even though they are feats, are controlled by Class Features. Because Class Features require the chosen feat to meet Pre-requisites, and also can only be turned into valid choices for which the class feature has defined, Embrace can not as a result replace a bonus feat granted by Fighter, Wizard, or Monk.

[Darius Kane]

*Slander based on False information as opposed to actually reading the books*
That's not very nice, you know.

[toapat]

That's not very nice, you know.

i keep getting replies that contain more nitpicking and less reading each time.

the point is, he replied in an offensive manner, after reading a reply. It also was uninformed and continued the standard response "Oh, but it is a spell, and so it doesnt follow RAW about how it works", which is why i point out that responses that rely on saying a spell functions despite all other rules, is wrong. Spells only obliterate the rules when they specifically state they can, such as Wish and miracle. Embrace the Dark Chaos is not that flexibly worded.

The fact is, most sources of bonus feats grant restricted choices. The sources of them never deactivate, and actually invalidate the replacement of the feat they are granting with an Abyssal heritor feat.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While getting the bonus feats is a class feature, the bonus feats themselves are still just feats. There's nothing in the retraining section of PHB2 that says you have to use the class feature retraining rules to swap bonus feats instead of the feat retraining rules. An egregious oversight on the part of WotC, but an oversight nonetheless. You can swap your fighter bonus feats for anything else you met the prerequisites for at the time you got the bonus feat. RAW does stupid stuff like this sometimes. *makes a mental note to houserule that mistake away*

Arguing that it shouldn't is one thing, and this is a case where few would disagree if that's what you were arguing. That's not what you're arguing though. You're arguing that by RAW they can't make these decisions when there's nothing in the RAW to support your statement.

Not only do the retraining rules emphatically not prevent the DCFS from working, they provide a mundane means of doing largely the same thing because of poor editing.

How much does it suck that continuing the discussion has brought scrutiny to rules that actually weaken your position?

[dextercorvia]

Make sure you take dodge as your first shuffled feat, and designate the DM as your opponent. Beware if he has Iaijutsu Focus as a class skill, as books will be heading in your direction.

Please only save that for the cheesiest of games.

Are we stuck with 38 feats as a fighter? Fighter 20 isn't much to work with. Even with 38 feats, still not equal to, say, a warblade, much less almost any caster.

Are you sure?

1:Magical Training (Sorcerer)
2:Planar Touchstone:Catalogs of Enlightenment:DLCS Sun domain
3:Extra Turning
4:Heighten Spell
5:DMM Heighten
6:Earth Sense
7:Earth Spell
8:Iron Will
9:Reserves of Strength
10:Extra Spell (Miracle)
11:Extra Spell (Shapechange)
12-38:Extra Slot (9th)

Obviously a few more slots can be sacrificed for Extra Spell if you want some added versatility, like Time Stop, or some Immediate action spells like Celerity.

[toapat]

*snip*

Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.

[olentu]

Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.

All right, since you so advocate reading the books over false information point out where all this stuff that you are basing your argument is in the books. Not just the page numbers as that is apparently not specific enough. And remember the books have to actually say the things you claim they are saying, if not it's just houserules.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

You're making up rules again, there is no such prerequisite as having an open feat slot to spend. There are tons of ways to gain feats in this game, and effects which cause the loss of a feat do not have to differentiate based on the source of those feats.

"This Abyssal heritor feat replaces one feat of the subject’s choice that it already possesses. The replaced feat need not have been an Abyssal heritor feat."
The target of the spell picks a feat he has, it does not differentiate where that feat came from, just that he has it. It even specifies that the abyssal heritor feat gained does not need to replace another abyssal heritor feat, that's a feat type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#typesOfFeats), it specifically states that it does not have to replace a feat of the same type. Feats are tagged with things like [metamagic], [item creation], [abyssal heritor], [aberrant], [general], etc., and fighter bonus feats are there too, but most of them are labeled [general]. Embrace the Dark Chaos doesn't care what type of feat you're replacing, it swaps in an [abyssal heritor] feat for a feat of any other type, including fighter bonus feats.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Feat swapping is actually pretty specifically worded, only 1st, 6th, 12th, and 18th level fighter feats can be replaced with them, and that is because that specific RAW does not differentiate 2 feat slots of the same level.

It does, however, state that you have to have met the feat pre-requisites when you do swap out the slot. Because a Fighter bonus feat is always a Fighter bonus feat, you cant slot some feat into it that does not have the special to do so, because you do not meet the pre-requisite of having a feat available at that level.

The problem with saying that you dont have to meet the pre-requisite of having a feat open at a given level, or the restrictions such as those provided by a given Bonus Feat Class Feature, is that you dont have a 2nd level feat to take Skill focus with. Saying that you can is a houserule, because you are specifically overriding the standard feat progression, or allowing the purchase of any and all feats a player qualifies. If you rule that Embrace can land the feat in the slot, then the class feature granting the slot removes the embraced heritor feat from the slot immediately, as the Abyssal heritor feat is not a legal option for the granted bonus feat. The class feature and feat retraining rules heavily support the fact that a Feat never looses the restrictions that influenced it.

You're just making up more stuff to try and support the stuff you've already made up now.

There's nothing in any of the bonus feat class features of any class that says that they ever check to make sure the feat selected is still legal. This is because the general rule is feats cannot be changed once selected. Or rather the default rules don't actually give any way to swap a feat already selected, and so don't need to give any instruction on how its done.

The retraining rules give you a way to swap feats or class-features but as I said before, neither ever makes mention or even allusion to a general rule (that doesn't exist) that they are reafirming. They also don't have anything in their language to say that you must use the class-feature retraining rules to retrain feats recieved via class-features.

There are no feat slots. You've consistently failed to prove their existence for more than a day now. You can't base any argument on them until you prove their existence (which you can't since you made them up).

Without the feat-slot idea being RAW the entirety of the rest of your arguments falls apart. Feat slots have no properties because they don't exist and even if they did they don't have any effect on the prerequisites of the feats being dropped into them, meaning you not only have to prove these feat-slots exist, but show where the language surrounding them changes the prerequisites of the feats they allow for. If you can't do this then the only prerequisites any feat has are the ones listed in prerequisite line of the description of that feat and these are the only prerequisites that the DCFS or feat retraining rules care about.

As I've said several times now, what you're proposing is a decent enough set of houserules, but as long as you keep insisting that it's RAW you're just blowing smoke until and unless you can cite a specific passage that shows you're right.

I've already quoted both of the sections relevant to your argument and neither of them support your argument at all.

[Kazyan]

Different angle now. Toapat, if you can Embrace a Ranger's Endurance (e.g.) into a random Abyssal Heritor feat, which apparently overrides the "feat slot", why can't you Shun it into Skill Focus? Abyssal Heritor feats are just as invalid for the Ranger 3 feat as Skill Focus is, so I don't see why Embrace can override if Shun can't.

[lunar2]

alight, i had an idea for a feat whore build. can anyone get together a build that has 66 feats?

here's what i've got so far.

Chaotic evil elf
Rogue 1, bard 4, wilder 4, cerebremancer 4, fighter 1, ranger 1, monk 1, crusader 1, warblade 1
2 flaws 2 other classes granting heavy armor proficiency and shield proficiency 1

feat prerequisites: Str 13, Con 15, Wis 15, Cha 15 Intimidate 9 ranks,

Natural attacks deal +1 fire damage, +57 HP, resist fire 5, +2 saves against fire effects, +9 saves against acid effects, resist acid 27, +9 knowledge, all knowledge always class skill, +8 listen, +25 search, +38 spot, Darkvision 185 ft., lowlight vision, +10 saves against paralysis, dragonblood subtype, tail slap 1d6, 2 claws 1d6, charm animal deeper darkness and insect plague as spells known, +1 CL with acid spells, +19 natural armor, +7 profane damage on natural attacks, -2 sleight of hand, DR 12/lawful, -2 survival, +2 escape artist, -2 bluff, reroll 12 SA dice, -2 diplomacy, -2 handle animal, -2 gather information, +12 knowledge (planes), +12 Spellcraft, +12 bardic knowledge, Spellcraft always class skill, absorb 12 negative levels/day, +12 perform, fascinate 12/day, -2 disguise, poison 1/hour, -2 heal, 12 floating +1 insight bonuses, weapons chaotic aligned, weapons deal 5d6 extra damage to lawful creatures, +10 swim, +36 jump, fear aura 6/day, +2 any check 6/day, -3 diplomacy vs. good creatures, +7 intimidate, blind sight 30 ft. 6/day, fast healing 6 1/day, daze 6/day, +10 ft. reach, -1 AC, -2 hide, bite 1d4, blind sense 30 ft., healed by negative energy, harmed by positive energy, no need to sleep or eat, immune to sleep, +2 to saves against poison and disease, light fortification, no death from massive damage, +4 grapple, +5 climb, +4 balance, 2 tentacles 1d4, -1 melee attack rolls, +4 saves vs. ingested poison or disease, fly 15 ft, immune altitude fatigue and sickness, cold resist 10, +10 to save against mind affecting, 16 power points, swim 30 ft., +6 saves vs. spells/powers/SLA/PLA, intimidate as a class skill, +1 manifester level for compulsion, +1 save DC for compulsion powers, 1/day mind blast, bonus on k. psionics/ concentration/ psycraft/ sense motive equal to number of PP spent on successful compulsion power, 4 tentacles 1d4, improved grab with tentacles, extract brains, psionic charm and read thoughts known, dispel psionics and psionic dominate known,

1 Fire heritage, 2 improved elemental heritage, 3 dragon touched, 4 draconic heritage (black, rotd), 5 draconic knowledge, 6 draconic senses, 7 dragon tail, 8 draconic claw, 9 draconic legacy, 10 draconic power, 11 draconic resistance, 12 draconic skin, 13 draconic toughness, 14 claws of the beast, 15 cloak of the obyrith, 16 demonic skin, 17 demonic sneak attack, 18 eyes of the abyss, 19 heart of the nabassu, 20 keeper of forbidden lore, 21 otherworldly countenance (beauty), 22 poison talons, 23 precognitive visions, 24 primordial scion, 25 vestigial wings, 26 devil’s aura, 27 devil’s favor, 28 devil’s flesh, 29 devil’s sight, 30 devil’s stamina, 31 devil’s tongue, 32 willing deformity, 33 deformity tall, 34 deformity teeth, 35 deformity tongue, 36 tomb tainted soul, 37 tomb born vitality, 38 tomb born resilience, 39 tomb born fortitude, 40-46 aberration blood x7, 47 bestial hide, 48 deepspawn, 49 durable form, 50 inhuman reach, 51 inhuman vision, 52 scavenging gullet, 53 starspawn, 54 warped mind, 55 waterspawn, 56 illithid heritage, 57 illithid compulsion, 58 illithid blast, 58 illithid enthusiast, 59-62 illithid grapple x4, 63 illithid extraction, 64 illithid legacy, 65 greater illithid legacy, 66 illithid skin,

Light armor 9, medium armor 5, heavy armor 4, shields 8, tower shields 2, elf 6, flaws 2, levels 7, fighter 1, monk 2, ranger 1 47 feats. Need 22 more.


that's abbysal heritor feats, draconic feats, aberrant feats, illithid heritage feats, and tomb tainted feats. but i'm short 22 feats. note that bard level 1 is needed for bardic knowledge (1 feat gives a bonus to that), and ML 8 is needed to use the powers known granted by illithid heritage feats. i chose wilder instead of psion because most of the feat granted abilities are charisma based, while i don't actually need any intelligence.

[Arcanist]

They eat and breath, so... yeah. >.>

...Where... Where are it's lungs? :smallconfused:


A better example would be Warrior McFighter, lvl 2 (now leveling to third level) fighter. He wishes to retrain his 2nd level Fighter bonus feat: weapon focus (Longbasket), for Skillfocus (Craft (Basketweaving)). A fighter can not select Skill Focus (Craft (Basketweaving)) at 2nd level, even though he meets the pre-requisites for the skill. This is because Skill Focus is not a fighter bonus feat.

Those are actually Retraining rules that specify that you have to had qualified at that time that you are taking the feats. The Fighter's Bonus feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/fighter.htm#bonusFeats) "may" be a class feature, but they are specifically called out as granting the Fighter a feat pertaining to a specific list (The Fighter bonus feat list). I like to view this as ironic really...


A fighter is not limited to the list of fighter bonus feats when choosing these feats.

But if this is the case, why do they even have a specific list of feats for Fighters?


i keep getting replies that contain more nitpicking and less reading each time.

That is actually how true knowledge is learned. Someone proposes an idea, someone corrects to that idea creating a new idea which is then corrected and so on and so forth into eternity.


the point is, he replied in an offensive manner, after reading a reply. It also was uninformed and continued the standard response "Oh, but it is a spell, and so it doesnt follow RAW about how it works", which is why i point out that responses that rely on saying a spell functions despite all other rules, is wrong.

It doesn't help you to counterattack him. Just calm down and offer a reasonable counter argument.


Spells only obliterate the rules when they specifically state they can, such as Wish and miracle. Embrace the Dark Chaos is not that flexibly worded.

Embrace and Shun are both flexible since they affect and pertain to feats which are a flexible mechanic of the game.


The fact is, most sources of bonus feats grant restricted choices. The sources of them never deactivate, and actually invalidate the replacement of the feat they are granting with an Abyssal heritor feat.

Indeed most bonus feats do grant restricted choices, however since most of those sources are indeed just that, feats, they may be converted into Abyssal Heritor feats, because the Spell does not state that you must qualify for the feat at the time that you shuffle it out like the retraining rules actually do.

[toapat]

...Where... Where are it's lungs? :smallconfused:

actually, breath makes sense, within an extent. They are gel masses that, in a vacuum, decompress, or when underwater, they disperse as a result of being a low density fluid. I thought that like outsiders though, they didnt need to eat, but could.

No, Nitpicking as in Completely ignoring the point, as in not reading the post and posting actual problems.

Shun the Dark Chaos isnt a problem, its only Embrace which matters. The second line means that the spell has to recheck whether the target can RAW recieve an abyssal heritor feat (which technically (PHB p87), no they cant, but im assuming we are triggering step 2-4 simultaneously so that the spell works.). Considering the spell doesnt even have an effect on non-chaotic targets, the spell fizzles anyway, so im also ignoring that because we are assuming the target qualifies for it.

The retraining rules were brought in because they are RAW confirmation that the fighter's Bonus Feats are class features, which specifically say this:

These bonus feats must be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats. Even if you can target the fighter/feat rogue bonus feats, you absolutely can not land an abyssal heritor feat in there. when specifically this becomes a problem is the choice of the DM, as to whether Embrace can not declare a fighter bonus feat as a target, or it lands the feat, but as a result, the bonus feat class feature evicts the abyssal heritor feat. You cant shun an abyssal heritor feat you dont have.

Monk, Rogue Ability (Feat), Elf weapon Proficiencies, and Wizard bonus feats are, on the other hand, legal targets, as they do not contain anything as definitely permanent as the restrictions on fighter bonus feats

[Darius Kane]

...Where... Where are it's lungs?
Not every creature needs lungs to breath, especially a fantasy creature. >.> But it's really irrelevant how they breath. The rules say they do.

[toapat]

Not every creature needs lungs to breath, especially a fantasy creature. >.> But it's really irrelevant how they breath. The rules say they do.

Its a fluid mass. It dissolves underwater or pulls apart in space.

doesnt change that they should have wrote rules specifically for them to not be able to survive in water, like lava for mortals.

[Darius Kane]

I don't know how that's relevant to anything I said.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ toapat:

Now you're not even being consistent anymore. Why is it that a monk's restricted choice of feats is a valid target and a fighter's isn't?

Nevermind you -still- (in spite of all this time you've had to look) can't point to a single piece of rules text to support your argument that the restriction of choice a class-feature creates is part of the prerequisites of a feat. (This is of course, because no such rules text exists.)

You can't point to anything to make the PHB2 retraining rules relevant, because no such item exists for you to point at.

You're touting a tenuous implication as RAW when the actual RAW doesn't support your argument at all and, in the case of the retraining rules, isn't even self-consistent.

Bonus points: no less than 4 people have pointed out the errors you are, or at least were, consistently making.

What you've presented remains a reasonable enough house-rule but it is in no way RAW.

[toapat]

Now you're not even being consistent anymore. Why is it that a monk's restricted choice of feats is a valid target and a fighter's isn't?

None of those i mentioned as being viable targets have the condition that they Must be those feats, Fighter/Feat rogue feats outright say they do. Retraining confirms that bonus Feat is a class feature granting a feat.

[TypoNinja]

One of the prerequisites of normally taking a feat is to have an "open feat" (or whatever the game terminology is).


No, the normal progression is that upon gaining a feat from leveling up you select it right away, you are not allowed to put off the choice either, there are no feat slots. You chose the feat when leveling up, and the level up process dictates at what point you gain it.



The examples for feat swapping are really bad in being clear. One of the restrictions/Prerequisites of feat swapping is you had to have been able to make that specific choice when you were that level (Ill give that the rules arent specific enough in the lvl 1 instance, although the "Must have been able to make that specific choice when that level" says no to me, that doesnt work). I, on the other hand, was not bringing them up because of that, but because it clarifies that Fighter's Bonus feats, are actually a class feature which grants you additional feats with which you have a restricted choice of what they are/can be, or that Feats retain the knowledge of their restrictions.


The examples for feat swapping in the PHB2 retraining rules are very clear. When retraining you must show that you would have qualified for the feat you are choosing at the same time you took the initial feat you are swapping out. That is to say the new feat must have also been a legal choice at the time of gaining the feat you are swapping out.

The obvious extension to that for bonus feats (like a fighter) is that one fighter bonus feat has to be swapped for another, because at the time of selection only fighter bonus feats were legal choices.

The Chaos Shuffle spells on the other hand have no such clauses restricting its application, indeed it even says. "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies".

As a DM, you might look at the retraining rules in attempting to limit cheeze potential of the chaos shuffle, however RAW there is no such restriction.

A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos. Never mind, apparently I can not read, that wrong, it says you get to pick both.

[toapat]

A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos.

nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.

[TypoNinja]

nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.

Yea I just noticed that right now when glancing back, apparently I just can't read, no idea how I missed it. So ignore that bit, I stand by the rest. :P

[toapat]

Yea I just noticed that right now when glancing back, apparently I just can't read, no idea how I missed it. So ignore that bit, I stand by the rest. :P

Open feat choices are typically required by the rules to be made before the completion of level up. Floating feats like Chameleon gets are rare. the point was to point out that you have to create an open feat choice (feat slot) to slot the abyssal heritor. You gain an Open feat choice at points as specified in rules im not going to quote because it is a long section.

actually, the problem im refferencing is how the example for feat retraining is completely stupid and non-informitive, not explaining in alternate form how the thing works other then ok, you cant take a feat that requires +8 BAB when you have +3 BAB. ya, that is blatantly obvious, show us something that better explains other instances of the rules.

and Embrace doesnt specify that it prevents instances of the rules like Fighter: bonus feats from breaking the combo. While the explosion of the rules is undefined, you absolutely cant keep the abyssal heritor feat long enough to get it shunned out.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, the normal progression is that upon gaining a feat from leveling up you select it right away, you are not allowed to put off the choice either, there are no feat slots. You chose the feat when leveling up, and the level up process dictates at what point you gain it.



The examples for feat swapping in the PHB2 retraining rules are very clear. When retraining you must show that you would have qualified for the feat you are choosing at the same time you took the initial feat you are swapping out. That is to say the new feat must have also been a legal choice at the time of gaining the feat you are swapping out.

The obvious extension to that for bonus feats (like a fighter) is that one fighter bonus feat has to be swapped for another, because at the time of selection only fighter bonus feats were legal choices.

The Chaos Shuffle spells on the other hand have no such clauses restricting its application, indeed it even says. "replaced by any other feat for which the subject qualifies".

As a DM, you might look at the retraining rules in attempting to limit cheeze potential of the chaos shuffle, however RAW there is no such restriction.

A wiser course would be to note that the Shun the Dark Chaos spell doesn't say that either the caster or the casted upon gets to choose the new feat, unlike Embrace The Dark Chaos.
Citation needed on the bold. It's certainly a logical conclusion, but it's not in the RAW.

All the book says is that you must've met the prerequisites for the new feat at the time you took the feat you're replacing.

There's nothing in the text to clarify that you must take a feat you could've legally taken under the same restrictions as the feat you're replacing. Neither is there anything that says you must replace a bonus feat recieved as a class-feature by retraining the class-feature.

By strict RAW you could replace a fighter bonus feat with an abyssal heritor feat, even without the spell; or a metamagic, or skill focus, or what-have-you.

It's a truly egregious oversight, but it's an oversight that was made, nonetheless.

Naturally, I would never allow this to fly in an actual game but RAW is RAW, anything else is a houserule no matter how sensible.

nope, specifically specifies the subject chooses the lost abyssal heritor feat and the replacement for the feat. I havent been arguing against the function of the entire shun spell because the spell is worded without actual holes or problems that people ignore about Embrace to make the thing work.

Why shouldn't we ignore a thing that doesn't exist?

Your argument actually got weaker as this discussion went on, since the rules you highlighted don't even do what you say within themselves when they do apply, so I really don't understand why you haven't conceded the point.

[TypoNinja]

Citation needed on the bold. It's certainly a logical conclusion, but it's not in the RAW.


The opening words of the Retraining section itself, prefacing all retraining, not just feats specifically.

PHB2 pg 192.


The most basic level of character revision is retraining - that is, adjusting a decision you made earlier in your character's career by selecting a different legal option.

Bold mine.

Naturally this is the rules for retraining, the Chaos shuffle suffered no such restrictions.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The opening words of the Retraining section itself, prefacing all retraining, not just feats specifically.

PHB2 pg 192.


Bold mine.

Naturally this is the rules for retraining, the Chaos shuffle suffered no such restrictions.

Huh. Missed that.

I stand corrected on the inconsistency in the retraining rules themselves, but this still doesn't mean they have anything to do with normal advancement or the DCFS.

[TypoNinja]

Huh. Missed that.

I stand corrected on the inconsistency in the retraining rules themselves, but this still doesn't mean they have anything to do with normal advancement or the DCFS.

Well no, but I would say they are a decent place to start if a DM needs to houserule The Shuffle to limit the pure cheese.

[mattie_p]

Just a quick note here, I've been reading about feat slots and such. Quick analogy for now.

If a feat, bonus or other, is like a cloak of charisma +2 (shoulders slot), using embrace/shun is like getting a pink and green ioun stone (cha +2) (now slotless). As long as the the PC qualifies for the feat (has enough wealth to buy it).