Scariest Lich - Druid vs Wizard vs Sorc vs Cleric

[Olfgar]

Which Lich do you guys think is the scarier one out of the above 4 classes?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Which Lich do you guys think is the scarier one out of the above 4 classes?

From a metagame perspective, the wizard, by a significant margin. All four classes are at least equally weakened by the lich template (though druid might get it worse than the other three) but the wizard has the most potential ways to make you sorry he ever heard of you.

From an in-game perspective, it's a toss-up between the wizard and the cleric. The wizard's a planner and a schemer and if he didn't ban illusion he's got all kinds of tricks to make himself that much scarier.

The cleric likely has the backing of a dark god and/or its church. There's almost nothing in this or any other world as scary as religion. A fact that becomes all the more true when the gods are active and their worshippers can wield magical powers.

[Olfgar]

I forgot. The Cleric is also able to heal himself with the same spells that would kill you.

[Cranthis]

Wellllll You could always go cleric and wizard. Mystich theurge it up and become a lich.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I forgot. The Cleric is also able to heal himself with the same spells that would kill you.

I'm guessing you're thinking mass harm there?

That's a pretty sweet move, but it's pretty high level. Come to think of it, it may even be out of reach for a non-epic cleric lich. That +4 LA hurts.

It also pales in comparison to any of the wizard's options if he's built to be a mailman style blast-spammer.

[dungeonnerd]

Personally, I kinda want to call druid - if for no other reason than noone expects a lich to be able to call animal friends, animate trees, wild-shape, etc.

Hell, a druid5/MoMF10/Beastmaster5 that picked up the Lich template somehow has what, 4 pets, can wild shape into a gargantuan dragon, has all EX abilities of any form it takes (can also go as small as tiny for escapes, can do oozes, elementals, etc) while still being undead.

If you can't, a druid20 still has some amazing natural world spells that would shock the hell out of anyone expecting a standard lich fight...

[dungeonnerd]

I'm guessing you're thinking mass harm there?

That's a pretty sweet move, but it's pretty high level. Come to think of it, it may even be out of reach for a non-epic cleric lich. That +4 LA hurts.

It also pales in comparison to any of the wizard's options if he's built to be a mailman style blast-spammer.

With buyoff from UA, it's down to a +3 LA (can't get lower, sadly) which brings you to 17cleric and your first 9th spell.

Also, Mass Harm is ninth level, so without that buyoff you can't get it.

[Olfgar]

I also ment any harm/inflict spells in general but yes that would be pretty sweet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I also ment any harm/inflict spells in general but yes that would be pretty sweet.

The basic inflict spells are kinda sub-par. Xd8 + CL is pretty low at any level except the one you get the spell on. Even then most sources of damage tends to out-pace them in even the upper-end of low-op.

I say this as someone who plays pretty close to the level of power the designers balanced around. (hint: that's a much lower level of power than most of the people around here discuss.)

[Psyren]

Clerics are always scariest to me, simply because being a cleric implies that he has backup. Any deity whose dogma is okay with lichdom to begin with is either a bastard or pretty liberal - either way means he'll likely grant the kind of miracles that would screw over the lich's opponents.

[Saintheart]

Personally, I kinda want to call druid - if for no other reason than noone expects a lich to be able to call animal friends, animate trees, wild-shape, etc.

Hell, a druid5/MoMF10/Beastmaster5 that picked up the Lich template somehow has what, 4 pets, can wild shape into a gargantuan dragon, has all EX abilities of any form it takes (can also go as small as tiny for escapes, can do oozes, elementals, etc) while still being undead.

If you can't, a druid20 still has some amazing natural world spells that would shock the hell out of anyone expecting a standard lich fight...

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Hm. Just playing Azatoth's Advocate here...What about Sorcerer Lich? Wouldn't high Charisma benefit a Lich who uses it in place of Constitution for HP?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Hm. Just playing Azatoth's Advocate here...What about Sorcerer Lich? Wouldn't high Charisma benefit a Lich who uses it in place of Constitution for HP?

There aren't many ways to get cha to HP's even if you're undead. There's also no reason to think that the wizard wouldn't do the same and pump his cha to similar levels. Not the same of course, but similar.

[Scots Dragon]

I'd personally like to point out that the lich wouldn't really be suffering all that much from level adjustment, since it only really applies to player characters and any given villain or big-bad-evil-guy is exactly as high level as he needs to be to screw you over.

The scariest liches, naturally, are the ones who are 18th-level magic-users and found in the 1977 Monster Manual.

[Diovid]

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.
Not quite. There's the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis and there's also the feat Tainted Druid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a). I see a badass Druid Lich in the making.

[lord_khaine]

There aren't many ways to get cha to HP's even if you're undead. There's also no reason to think that the wizard wouldn't do the same and pump his cha to similar levels. Not the same of course, but similar.

Is it even doable? the only template i have seen do it is dry lich, but thats no longer a possibility when you have become a regular lich.

[Scots Dragon]

Pathfinder undead rules give you charisma to hit points automatically, as a replacement for constitution. You also don't have any changes to your non-racial hit dice.

[Flasaro]

A druidlv --/ Blighter could be scary, at least from what i can remember about them.

[Saintheart]

A druidlv --/ Blighter could be scary, at least from what i can remember about them.

No. No they are not. This is a big bone of contention in Red Hand of Doom (do not open the following spoilertag if you plan to play RHOD anytime soon)...

The most "powerful" opponent the PCs potentially face is a druid 6/blighter 5 or so with the lich template. He's marketed and meant to function as a curbstomper against a level 8-9 party; you're meant to be so freaked out and scared of him that you negotiate the return of his phylactery to him rather than fight him.

However, the almost-universal experience of parties running that module is that the "book" build sucks. Horribly. And much of it seems to come from the fact he's a blighter.

The main reason is due to inherent issues with the blighter. First issue, all your druid casting is now gone. What do you get in return? Blighters basically get a little blasty elemental magic one level down - you can now get Flame Strike one level early, and you also get a direct-damage burst centred on you (blightfire). Unfortunately, the blighter's spell list is waaaaaaay too limited. Where it sticks out most glaringly is in relation to summoning: no Summon Nature's Ally on the list, since you're all against nature now, so no Greenbound Summoning or Ashbound summoning. And blighters don't get Summon Undead to compensate for it. Matter of fact, for an evil or undead-themed PrC, the blighter doesn't even get Control Undead until he can cast level 6 spells.

He also loses his most potent wild shape strengths (all Wild Shapes are now undead, which means vulnerable to positive energy blasty magic like the Light of Venya line of spells). And he has no animal companion either, so no buddy to do your melee'ing for you.

Standing on his own, or even with a few undead allies, the opponent in question -- the Ghostlord -- tends to get rolled by every party who decides to throw down on him, whether it's because of the action economy or otherwise. Fuller discussion on this subject, including some rebuilds, is in the RHOD Handbook in my sig.

[Saintheart]

Not quite. There's the feat Corrupted Wild Shape from Libris Mortis and there's also the feat Tainted Druid (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030428a). I see a badass Druid Lich in the making.

Oho! I don't know about Corrupted Wild Shape, but that Tainted Druid feat could be interesting, particularly for RHOD. I shall have to give that more thought... :smallamused:

For my own (or at least Glyphstone's contribution, coming from the RHOD Handbook): try lich-ifying Druid 5/Ur-Priest X. Seventh level spells by level 12 ought to impress someone ;)

[Flasaro]

I was guessing to be completely honest. Looking at the books I now see the err of my ways :)

[Tvtyrant]

Blighter can be decent, but only if you level drain the Druid levels before taking Blighter levels. Then you get 9th level spells extremely early in the game, which you probably follow with Master of Many Forms to get some of your flexibility back (or some sort of theurge.)

[TopCheese]

Small fluff problem: druids of all stripes despise undead as being against the natural order, so a lich druid could well get PHBs/DMGs thrown at him.

I forget what book... But there is a BBEG that is a Druid Lich based around the cold and such.

Pretty scary actually.

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

From a fluff perspective I could see good druids going lich since that would be the best way to protect mother nature and not be part of the problem. Heck you never have to kill to eat or take from mother nature again and you can watch over the world and let nature live in peace.

[Olfgar]

I forget what book... But there is a BBEG that is a Druid Lich based around the cold and such.

Pretty scary actually.

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

From a fluff perspective I could see good druids going lich since that would be the best way to protect mother nature and not be part of the problem. Heck you never have to kill to eat or take from mother nature again and you can watch over the world and let nature live in peace.

Well the whole "eating meat and other crap found growing from nature" bit is kind of off. Its usually scene as it being a part of the cycle of life. Certain things exists in the cycle to be eaten by something else, which in turn will be eaten by something else.

For example, berries and grass and leaves and what not are going to be eaten by a deer, which will be eaten by a carnivore, such as wolves, bears, humanoid races etc, which are all apart of nature because they, you know exist.

while generally humanoids are at the top of their respective food chains (generally, because there isnt alot that actively hunts them for a food source unless you know...plot hook?) and other carnivores like wolves or bears are at the top of theirs, because its the grass eaters that get hunted first etc, its still part of nature and the circle of life and what not, because it allows that species to survive, while keeping the other species in check.

Also I can see where your going for the druid becoming a lich to better protect the forest, but...Undeath is like a slap to the face of nature, and then spiting in its eye. Hell, becoming a Lich is just a naturally evil act, not matter what your intentions are with it.

[Psyren]

Actually of the 4, I see evil druids going lich faster than the other. Why? So they can be as timeless as the nature they love. So they gain the power to kill off all those that harm mother nature. But most important... So they are no longer one of those fleshy creatures that use and abuse nature.

Death - natural death, and change - are parts of nature. While nature as a concept is timeless, it only persists as a whole because the old growth eventually dies to make room for (and nourish) the new. Forests may live eternally, but trees die all the time.

I can't see undeath playing any part in that. It's a perversion, nothing more. Certainly a druid can go this route mechanically, but I can't imagine his fellows being welcoming of the idea. He might even "cease to revere nature" immediately, if not over the fullness of time.

[LTwerewolf]

An archivist would make a nightmarish lich.

[doko239]

Not 3.5, but a Pathfinder-style Synthesist Summoner could be fun, though not totally game-breaking, as a Lich.

No con score? That's ok, you give yourself one anyway, plus vastly improved physical stats, a metric assload of temp HP, and other fun little plusses.

Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards :smallbiggrin:

[dungeonnerd]

Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, im playing that in my next game.

[Acanous]

Pretty sure Clerics make the best liches for the same reason Clerics make the best Necromancers- You have two domains and Rebuke Undead which can add bonuses to your powers over undeath. You can Bolster yourself. You can heal (Harm) yourself.
The wizard is no slouch either, and he'd have better damage-dealing ability, but the Cleric's going to have the edge here. Especially if we're only going Core.

[NeedsAnswersNao]

Non-epic? Fewest shenanigans? If demilich counts as a "lich" then sorc. PBMC had a preepic build of one I copied down a while ago.

[Kelb_Panthera]

An archivist would make a nightmarish lich.

If archivist was one of the options the OP asked us to pick from, I'd've picked him hands down.

All the versatility of the wizard backed by the religion of the cleric. *shudder*

[toapat]

Just a note for everyone bringing up Mass Harm:

Only on the Dread Necro list.

otherwise: I would argue that Cleric and Wizard are about equal in terms of serving as a base lich class.

i would then argue that a lich is really only good on one of the quick progression PrCs

[JeminiZero]

I reckon Wizard gains the most from Lichdom out of the 3. For one thing, improving from d4+Con to d12 is certainly a better deal than d8+Con to d12. In fact with a Con bonus of +2 or higher, the Cleric/Druid ends up LOSING HP on average instead.

Another aspect is immunities. Cleric and Druid have a wide plethora of immunity granting spells. The liches undead immunities do not benefit them as much as it benefits the Wizard (who otherwise has a relatively harder time getting immunity to ability damage/drain, energy drain and death effects).

[Zubrowka74]

Doko, can I sig this ?


Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards :smallbiggrin:

[Arcanist]

Wellllll You could always go cleric and wizard. Mystich theurge it up and become a lich.

You're already losing 3 caster levels for being a Lich IF Buy back is in play... Lets not shoot ourselves in the foot and then reload... :smalleek:


Clerics are always scariest to me, simply because being a cleric implies that he has backup. Any deity whose dogma is okay with lichdom to begin with is either a bastard or pretty liberal - either way means he'll likely grant the kind of miracles that would screw over the lich's opponents.


Not many god's actually allow their Clerics to take on Lichdom as an option... God's are cowards like that :smalltongue: Vecna knows where your Phylactery is at all times since you hide that thing like a 17 year old high school girl's diary (long story) and Orcus (depending on the rules in play) knows where your Phylactery is as well and again can simply curb stomp you whenever he wants (unless of course you're playing him as he is portrayed in the FC:I i.e. as crap)

In a 20 level limit world the Lich is at most going to be 17th level so the Sorcerer is weakened by a lack of access to 9th level spells leaving the Druid, Wizard and Cleric. The Druid loses access to Wild Shape shenanigans unless they take Tainted Druid, but if not they are weakened by this leaving the Cleric and the Wizard. The Cleric can be completely dicked out by his/her God (unless of course their God is totally awesome and lets Lichdom fly). Needless to say becoming a Lich is clearly an evil act so the Cleric might have to atone... but can't because you "have" to feel bad about doing it...

Consistently the Wizard is superior to the Druid, Sorcerer and Cleric due to the fact he doesn't have to bend over backwards to become a Lich :smallsmile:

...This is of course my perspective on things so eh... take it or leave it :smallsigh: If the Cleric can be good aligned and be a Good Lich go for it. Immunity to Turning and a +2 bonus to turning is pretty neat :smalltongue:

[LTwerewolf]

If archivist was one of the options the OP asked us to pick from, I'd've picked him hands down.

All the versatility of the wizard backed by the religion of the cleric. *shudder*

Exactly. And with a dip in clericyou can get rebuke as well.

[doko239]

Doko, can I sig this ?

go for it :smallbiggrin:

[Vaern]

The Druid loses access to Wild Shape shenanigans unless they take Tainted Druid
Where does it say that a druid loses access to Wild Shape for being a lich?

[Arcanist]

Where does it say that a druid loses access to Wild Shape for being a lich?

Small error on my part while checking the Alternate form rules out.


The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

which made me think "Neat, the Druid Lich, while in Wild shape has no constitution score", but made me wonder "Would it be undead? Or would it be a special type of Animal?"

Either way. The Wizard will emerge victorious if it is played at it's highest potential (God forbid the Wizard decides to Plane Shift and then Astral Project. Whatever shall we do?).

[Vaern]

I was assuming that you were just looking at the actual PHB instead of the SRD. It says that Wild Shape functions as the polymorph spell, which requires a willing living target to work. An errata was released a while back, though, that changed the description to reference the alternate form ability rather than the polymorph spell.
Also, the Lich entry specifically says that they are able to use polymorph effects on themselves, despite being immune to polymorph.



Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

[Arcanist]

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about what kind of lich is scariest, not which one is most powerful.

An average party expects a lich to be a wizard or a cleric. They're expecting the lich to be expecting them, and to have spells prepared just to deal with them. They're going to be no more afraid of the lich when they finally meet him than they were when they first set out to destroy him.

What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

If it's based on "Scariest" and not who can blow whom out the water fastest Shneeky most definitely got it nixed in the bottom a little while back :smallsigh:


It actually isn't, but not for the reason you think.

First off, they start off with a Fear aura at level 5, but it kinda sucks. Then you tack onto that the spell Aura of Terror (using one of several loopholes to Persist it, either NaenHoon or Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician to qualify spell as divine). Now tack on Dread Witch to bypass fear immunity, and boost the fear level up yet another notch, and you've got Panicked. Dreadful Wrath is unnecessary.

Congratulations, you've beaten Takahashi at his own game. Without needing to expend any actions in combat to do it. As a class feature and a spell obtained from another class feature. And can still cast 9th level spells and have a swarm of disposable minions.

[Vaern]

Well, I guess I can't compete against an actual fear effect. I admit defeat. Well played, Shneekey.

[Endarire]

Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

Booyah!

[LTwerewolf]

Wizard for Uttercold Assault Necromancer. Try a wall of fire with Lord of the Uttercold applied and suddenly your necromantic army is healing quite a lot of damage each round they're in the wall (due to you being a skeleton and using skeletons) while enemies that come too close are hurt.

Booyah!

Can't druids learn that trick as well? Also archivists? Also Clerics with the fire domain?

[Vaern]

Can't druids learn that trick as well? Also archivists? Also Clerics with the fire domain?
And sorcerers. Don't forget sorcerers.

[LTwerewolf]

And sorcerers. Don't forget sorcerers.

But they're the red-headed stepchild of d&d.

[etrpgb]

Or be a Bard Lich and tell people you're Keith Richards :smallbiggrin:

It probably needs Able Learner (so only few races can do this) but this build... ROCKS. :D

Bard 5/Sand Shaper 3/Walker of the Wastes 1/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Walker of the Wastes 9

Keith Richards!

[Waldmarschallin]

I was assuming that you were just looking at the actual PHB instead of the SRD. It says that Wild Shape functions as the polymorph spell, which requires a willing living target to work. An errata was released a while back, though, that changed the description to reference the alternate form ability rather than the polymorph spell.
Also, the Lich entry specifically says that they are able to use polymorph effects on themselves, despite being immune to polymorph.


What they're not expecting is the lich wild shaping into a dire bear or something and mauling their faces off. That will probably get you a bigger "OH $#!&" reaction than a lich casting any spell, especially once they are reminded the hard way that liches have a touch attack which can permanently paralyze its target (which most liches I've seen have never made use of).

This is precisely what I do. (Using the good leich variant from Libris Mortis of course: if you're not using that then you've got to be evil of course. One time my partner hit me with a Deep One invasion of my home island. I had a few NPC archers with me but nothing much beyond me and my animal companion. (he is a dire snake/king cobra awakened and entered into leichdom after taking sufficient levels of cleric) I was able to respond by wild shaping into a giant octopus (which being undead could exist just fine out of water), casting wind walk on myself, and flying at a speed of 300 feet (poor maneuverability) with 8 reaching tentacle paralysis attacks- a great way to quickly dispatch lots of mid-level mooks. It was terrifying- imagine a 15 foot octopus zooming over an attempted Normandy landing, paralyzing all it touches, and having a fear aura to boot. Meanwhile my grossly rules-abused animal companion was grappling all who made their save and paralyzing many more- his paralysis attack has actually killed us two shoggoths from CoC 3.0 rules too-. but yeah, airborne octopus at 300fpr, 8 paralysis attacks at 15 foot reach.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape was changed in the official errata, the most current PHB version matches the SRD version.


Regarding the original question, I'd say Cleric, given the most ideal build. They have (Greater) Anyspell for DMM: Persistent Wizard buffs, and can use Pearls of Power to use (Greater) Anyspell multiple times/day for multiple buffs. They have Miracle to emulate spells from any list in the game, along with baseline powerful spells. For the most powerful PC and the most challenging monster, my money is on Cleric for this.

He can have all the spells a Wizard could and then some, including Positive Energy Protection (immune to turning and positive energy damage), DMM: Persistent Holy Star multiple times, DMM: Persistent Stormrage plus Control Weather, Greater Rod of Chain Spell with (DMM: Irresistible) Destruction which doesn't have a decreased DC on secondary targets, etc. Additionally, he has options like Initiate of Mystra (worshipers of the old LN Mystra are still recognized), and if strong enough you can hide your phylactery on your deity's well guarded home plane. Plus you don't need to keep a spare spellbook with your phylactery.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.