Frenzied Berserker

[Ginger]

I have a question. If i threw a Crystal of Mind Cloaking in some armor. Would you allow the bonus to affect the will saves to exit or prevent frenzy?

I guess this would be more of a house rule as it doesn't say mind effecting anywhere in the frenzied description.

Would you considered a non-voluntary frenzy a mind-altering affect even though it is self inflicted?

I guess i am asking "Can a case be made?"

[Rhaegar14]

A somewhat related question that may be the answer to your problem; why is it not the case that every Frenzied Berserker ever takes Righteous Wrath (BoED) and totally disregards the PrC's main weakness? Am I missing something here?


While raging, you maintain a clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to... distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage.

[LanSlyde]

I have a question. If i threw a Crystal of Mind Cloaking in some armor. Would you allow the bonus to affect the will saves to exit or prevent frenzy?

I guess this would be more of a house rule as it doesn't say mind effecting anywhere in the frenzied description.

Would you considered a non-voluntary frenzy a mind-altering affect even though it is self inflicted?

I guess i am asking "Can a case be made?"

Alternatively, you could dive into BoED for the righteous wrath feat. Your targets have to make saves to avoid being scared of you when you punch them in the face and the feat specifically says that you maintain your clarity of mind when raging and can perfectly distinguish friend from foe. While it does not list frenzy, it does have that stipulation. Besides, if a case can be for sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike precision damage transparency you should have a chance to make a case for rage/frenzy/battle fury transparency.

I realize I have not answered your question, but yes, a case can be made for your crystal to help you avoid killing everything in the room.

[Ginger]

OK! did not know this existed! Ill have to ask my DM about that feat!!

I was planning on getting Endurance & Steadfast Determination to help before i take even a single level in frenzied berserker. I might skip that path entirely if he OKs BoED... Ill feel a bit cheesy though xD

[Dusk Eclipse]

Strictly speaking Righteous Wrath wouldn't work with Frenzy because it isn't a Barbarian's Rag

[INoKnowNames]

Yeah, Rules as Written, Righteous Wrath has no affect on Frenzy, just Rage.

Additionally, it's a pretty decisive ban because a lot of people rather dislike that Book for many different reasons.

Futhermore, for completely invalidating the class's main weakpoint and gimic, it isn't out of place for a Dm to dislike that feat.

And if you do take it, you're locked into being Good enough to shame Paladins, and if you fall, you're right back to where you started.

Clear all of those issues, though, and enjoy your super strength!

[Ginger]

I didn't even think about the alignment restriction. Yeah it won't work then. Back to endurance and Steadfast Determination then. Any other suggestions.

Any other input on the augmentation crystal idea?

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you have a Red Wizard in your party, you could take a level of Thayan Knight and have your Red Wizard buddy cast a charm monster or similar on you (will autofail the save) allowing you to calm down. Just make sure the Red Wizard player isn't a **** and won't lord over your.

[Ginger]

How will the save be auto failed? i have to try my hardest to kill people

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have a question. If i threw a Crystal of Mind Cloaking in some armor. Would you allow the bonus to affect the will saves to exit or prevent frenzy?

I guess this would be more of a house rule as it doesn't say mind effecting anywhere in the frenzied description.

Would you considered a non-voluntary frenzy a mind-altering affect even though it is self inflicted?

I guess i am asking "Can a case be made?"

Your problem will still be a 1 in 20 chance of failing your Will save on a Natural 1 and TPKing the whole party (unless you have a moderately optimized Wizard, in which case, he will most likely be unaffected by anything you do).

[Dusk Eclipse]

How will the save be auto failed? i have to try my hardest to kill people

Thayan Knight level 1 class feature make you autofail your saves against any [mind-affecting] spell cast by a Red Wizard.

[Ginger]

Your problem will still be a 1 in 20 chance of failing your Will save on a Natural 1 and TPKing the whole party (unless you have a moderately optimized Wizard, in which case, he will most likely be unaffected by anything you do).

This was one of the reasons i wanted to see if i could use the Crystal of Mind Cloaking. A greater crystal would give me a re-roll on a fail.

Doesn't completely solve the problem but odds are significantly more in favor of not murdering my party. .

[Man on Fire]

Question: Would Indominable Soul feat work against Frenzy?


Your problem will still be a 1 in 20 chance of failing your Will save on a Natural 1 and TPKing the whole party (unless you have a moderately optimized Wizard, in which case, he will most likely be unaffected by anything you do).

Don't start again, please, we tried to explain to you that your idea of FB being walking TPK is wrong lat time, don't make me start again.

Okay, here are some other suggestions:

1) Spread out the party and stay away from FB. What Shneeky worries about so much is possible only if part is all next to each other. During a fight you should spread out. That way if FB will run out of opponents he will have problem attacking you.

2) Have the lowest initiative in the party. Seriously, it saves a great lot of trouble if everybody can move out of your way, making you waste a turn to even get to them, or throw spelsl at you. Especially if you're the slowest guy i nthe group. My party solves my problem by this way - they stay away and fastest member leads me out of the civilians while being slighty beyond my reach.

3) Use bag of tricks. It's written in Frenzy describtion that FB must attack the nearest creature, even if they are not a threat. So make the party throw at you bunch of hrmless animals until you calm down.

4) Take murky-eyed flaw and make others use some form of concealment.

5) Give other party members something to make them invisible.

6) Convince another player to play somebody who can hold his own against you in combat, say War Hulk or Dwarven Defender and make it that he holds you down until you calm down. The roleplay potential for that is glorious.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not really, Frenzy isn't a [Mind-affecting] nor a Fear effect (which incidentally are a subset of the former).

[Man on Fire]

Not really, Frenzy isn't a [Mind-affecting] nor a Fear effect (which incidentally are a subset of the former).

Damn, it would solve everything.

[Ginger]

Not really, Frenzy isn't a [Mind-affecting] nor a Fear effect (which incidentally are a subset of the former).

Alright so i guess that means the Crystal is not going to work by the book either?

I might still try to bring it up to my DM. I dont think its too unreasonable.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Question: Would Indominable Soul feat work against Frenzy?



Don't start again, please, we tried to explain to you that your idea of FB being walking TPK is wrong lat time, don't make me start again.As I recall, you merely delayed the inevitable, declared that 'it couldn't happen' and ignored the problem. Or you declared you would build in weaknesses to the FB which would enable an opponent with an IQ greater than 6 to shut him down completely.


Okay, here are some other suggestions:

1) Spread out the party and stay away from FB. What Shneeky worries about so much is possible only if part is all next to each other. During a fight you should spread out. That way if FB will run out of opponents he will have problem attacking you.Pounce really has a way of ruining this. Also, reach-stacking. Large size + Spiked Chain (typical weapon loadout for a charge build focused on area-effect destruction) = 20' radius.

Also, splitting up the party? Always a BAD idea. If you get out of mutual reach of him, you also get out of mutual support range.


2) Have the lowest initiative in the party. Seriously, it saves a great lot of trouble if everybody can move out of your way, making you waste a turn to even get to them, or throw spelsl at you. Especially if you're the slowest guy i nthe group. My party solves my problem by this way - they stay away and fastest member leads me out of the civilians while being slighty beyond my reach.Unfortunately, no one knows if the FB is going to try to TPK until it's his turn and he makes or fails his Will save(s). And once he fails that Will save, it's his turn, no one else can do a damn thing.

Also, you're deliberately leaving him open to be neutralized by opponents before he has a chance to act.


3) Use bag of tricks. It's written in Frenzy describtion that FB must attack the nearest creature, even if they are not a threat. So make the party throw at you bunch of hrmless animals until you calm down.You won't know if you need to do so. And if you go first, then he will naturally attack these non-allies first. However, that also doesn't trigger the will save, because he hasn't run out of valid opponents yet. Delaying tactic, but doesn't solve the problem.


4) Take murky-eyed flaw and make others use some form of concealment.

5) Give other party members something to make them invisible.Go ahead and make him worthless against a good chunk of encounters. I'm sure that'll make him feel REALLY valuable.


6) Convince another player to play somebody who can hold his own against you in combat, say War Hulk or Dwarven Defender and make it that he holds you down until you calm down. The roleplay potential for that is glorious.

Not gonna happen. FB's deal THOUSANDS of damage a round, with insanely high attack bonuses. NOTHING is going to be able to 'tank that' for one round. Or even one attack

[ahenobarbi]

It's easy if your DM allows the Frenzied Berserker to willingly fail save against calm emotions. If he doesn't... having your familiar/hireling ready action to use Dust of Sneeing and Choking is expansive but cheaper than resurrection and will buy you time (and more saves). You can use all BFC to keep the FB away from those you don't want hurt.

[dungeonnerd]

I'm first to admit - not familiar with FB.

But couldn't you just buy a couple cheap wands of charm or hold person, and give them to the wizard? That way, sit you in place until the rage wears off.

[ahenobarbi]

I'm first to admit - not familiar with FB.

But couldn't you just buy a couple cheap wands of charm or hold person, and give them to the wizard? That way, sit you in place until the rage wears off.

Works great - if you can willingly fail saves. If you can't then it's not reliable.

[Ginger]

I am going to agree with ShneekeyTheLost here. Once i start taking FB levels my damage will best be expressed in scientific notation. One charge will most likely kill a party member. This is especially true because the most magical character we have in our party is a Bard.... If i don't limit myself I am going to ruin someone's day.

Oh and i am not stacking reach btw. I am using a Gloiath Greathammer though... I like having a really big hammer...

Marbles will delay me for 1 round maybe if they act first. I am goign to distribute those once i hit the right level. I need to bolster my will though if I don't want to kill everyone. This also helps for preventing others from controlling me. Charge + pounce + power attack + multipliers will still probably kill party members even without the frenzy.

[dungeonnerd]

Works great - if you can willingly fail saves. If you can't then it's not reliable.

Actually, if you can get someone some skill in UMD, grab a wand of Stone Shape, and use a charge to build a wall between you, breaking line of sight. Nothing in sight = nothing to mindlessly attack...

[Mari01]

I gotta agree with Shneeky, partly because of first hand experience. We had a trap go off on our party that dealt a pitiful amount of damage to everyone (pitfall that rogue hadn't managed to find and also partly plot moving forward). We landed in a heap about 30 feet down, and that pit became our graves very quickly.

And then it happened again. The BBEG had done his research on us and we started facing more and more hit and run attacks. Shoot the berserker and hightail it outta there was a common strategy once enemies knew about it.

Building known weaknesses into your character is dumb. Strengthening your will save is one thing, but why actively gimp yourself just so you don't become the bad kind of murder hobo?

[ahenobarbi]

Hmm actually grease will stop you - becasue in Frenzy Berserker can't make checks of dex-based skills so you can't move.

Hovewer if I wanted to play FB I'd hope there is some errata out there that would let me move through grease (otherwise I'd be too easy to shut down).

[Mari01]

Hmm actually grease will stop you - becasue in Frenzy Berserker can't make checks of dex-based skills so you can't move.

Hovewer if I wanted to play FB I'd hope there is some errata out there that would let me move through grease (otherwise I'd be too easy to shut down).

There's nothing stopping you from crawling your way out. Sure it'll slow you down a couple rounds, but it's hardly permanent.

[LTwerewolf]

While it says "any" dex based skills, it was more than likely intended to be like rage, which does include some of the basic skills, like balance.

[Dusk Eclipse]

While it says "any" dex based skills, it was more than likely intended to be like rage, which does include some of the basic skills, like balance.

Again Frenzy=/= rage, and since the RAW says you can't use any Dex based skills, you cannot use balance while in a Frenzy.

[LTwerewolf]

Again Frenzy=/= rage, and since the RAW says you can't use any Dex based skills, you cannot use balance while in a Frenzy.

I enjoy how you've ignored the entire meat of the post, restating something that does not change it at all. Frenzy is not rage, no. They are similar, and yes, I said that it was not rules as written, which you also ignored. I also used the word intended.

[Mari01]

Again Frenzy=/= rage, and since the RAW says you can't use any Dex based skills, you cannot use balance while in a Frenzy.

The Frenzied Berserker who walks a tightrope just to keep killing :smallbiggrin:.

[ahenobarbi]

There's nothing stopping you from crawling your way out. Sure it'll slow you down a couple rounds, but it's hardly permanent.

It will prevent you from moving untill grease runs out (which can easily be longer than your frenzy)



A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details).


Again - it's RAW, I don't think it makes sense.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I enjoy how you've ignored the entire meat of the post, restating something that does not change it at all. Frenzy is not rage, no. They are similar, and yes, I said that it was not rules as written, which you also ignored. I also used the word intended.

Please tell me what are your sources to say that it was intended that a Frenzied Berserker can use Dex Based skill checks? If that particular restriction was omitted from the text, then you might have a claim that it was intended; but as it is, Frenzied Berserkers weren't intended to use those skills in a frenzy.

[DarkestKnight]

I think I remember seeing a collar in BoVD that allowed a chosen person to Dominate the person wearing the collar at will with no save. I think it is costly but it is an absolute way to prevent TPK (or start one depending on the controller i suppose).

[ahenobarbi]

Also a cursed dagger that changes alignement to opposite. Draw it to kill your party, your alignement changes... and maybe you loose FB class features so your frenzy ends this also is DM-dependent though.

[Ginger]

I mentioned marbles because its a non-magic grease.

I think they only work for about 1 round. round 1, i try and charge/move and i fall. Round 2 i get up from fallen - no balance check to stand - Then i make a jump which is a Str check from the standing position. I think with the massive strength i should be able to clear the grease. Also i have taken Extreme Leap so that is an extra 10feet.

[ahenobarbi]

I mentioned marbles because its a non-magic grease.

I think they only work for about 1 round. round 1, i try and charge/move and i fall. Round 2 i get up from fallen - no balance check to stand - Then i make a jump which is a Str check from the standing position. I think with the massive strength i should be able to clear the grease. Also i have taken Extreme Leap so that is an extra 10feet.

So it's 2 rounds. During which other members can spread more marbles :smallbiggrin:

[Ginger]

yeah your right 2 rounds

On round 3 though. There would probably be a leap attack.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

[golem1972]

Book of Vile Darkness: Fanatic's Collar. 30k gp worth of insurance that the whole party will chip in for.

Not foolproof, but works in most situations, watch out for antimagic.

Anything that stops a charge will hamper the fb and give the party time to calm the fb down.

[ahenobarbi]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

Just make sure your party can shut down flight easily.

But the reason I didn't play FB is that (if your DM doesn't allow you to willingly fail saves to shut down frenzy) you are walking TPK. Because you need counter for everything that could effectivelly shut you down (or enemies will make you useless).

You could setup something like:
1) Caster A dominates you (you willingly submit).
2) Caster B casts persisted Protection from Evil.
3) You start attacking someone you shouldn't.
4) Caster B uses Celerity (lesser) to dismiss PfE.
5) Caster A uses Celerity (lesser) to get control of you and stop attack.

but it's rather costly and requires constant supervision of 2 casters...

[Kazyan]

FB's deal THOUSANDS of damage a round, with insanely high attack bonuses.

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

[Ginger]

FB had best have a source of Flight by around level 12 if he wants to continue being able to affect opponents. And flying negates Grease/marbles...

Well i am way off from 12 right now. I am planning on taking FB at level 10.
I am in no rush to get there.

Items that grant me flying have moved up my priority list now though. I really think that building in weakness is a poor idea for making a "safe" frenzied berserker. not only because alot of the time they are very iffy and depend on allies that might be killed first, but also because they can be exploited by enemies.

This was part of the reason i am asking about the crystal XD which i haven't gotten a concrete answer on yet.

[Ginger]

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

Pounce from Spirit lion totem
High strength
Supreme power attack
Headless charge - feat
Leap attack - feat
Valorous weapon

You end up with you full attack +1 dealing (weapon +str + powerattack)x5 for every attack

You get stupid attack damage. this damage is only on a charge.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I know that the exact number is absolutely besides the point here, but don't you need Otto the Bugbear levels of ubercharging to hit thousands of damage? How does a generic FB get 1000+?

Yea, you're looking at (Weapon + Str*1.5 (2h weapon) + BAB) * 5 per swing, and 4x swings even without Haste or other shennanigans.

So let's just start talking about BAB of 20 * 5 * 4 is 400 right there. Base minimum.

Now, if we're talking about a Str of 30 (WAY sub-par, but as an example), then you're looking at something along the lines of 15 *5 * 4, or another 300. That's 700. Honestly, you're probably breaking 1k at this point with all the ways to boost Str, but let's keep it conservative. Then we can go with size-stacking on the weapon itself, so you're probably rollin' something like 6d6 or 21 damage a swing on average or another 400+ damage to crack the 1k mark easily.

Then, of course, we start tacking on things like Haste and Belt of Battle... yea, things get stupid fast.

[Kazyan]

Pounce from Spirit lion totem
High strength
Supreme power attack
Headless charge - feat
Leap attack - feat
Valorous weapon

You end up with you full attack +1 dealing (weapon +str + powerattack)x5 for every attack

You get stupid attack damage. this damage is only on a charge.

At level 20, this is 4 attacks. PA for 20, get +80 dmg per attack. Str 60 = +25 dmg, 2d6+3? base from the weapon. Adds up to 115 avg, x2 from Valorous = 230. x4 if all attacks hit = 920. This is huge, but not thousands.'

Still not seeing it, especially at lower levels.

EDIT: Frenzied Beserker'd. I think my math is bad anyway.

[ahenobarbi]

The frenzy is not described as mind-affecting so the crystal wouldn't work.

Oh. You could carry around a creature that's immune to your attacks. When you run out of enemies you'll keep hitting it for no damage :smallsmile:


Yea, you're looking at (Weapon + Str*1.5 (2h weapon) + BAB) * 5 per swing, and 4x swings even without Haste or other shennanigans.

So let's just start talking about BAB of 20 * 5 * 4 is 400 right there. Base minimum.

Now, if we're talking about a Str of 30 (WAY sub-par, but as an example), then you're looking at something along the lines of 15 *5 * 4, or another 300. That's 700. Honestly, you're probably breaking 1k at this point with all the ways to boost Str, but let's keep it conservative. Then we can go with size-stacking on the weapon itself, so you're probably rollin' something like 6d6 or 21 damage a swing on average or another 400+ damage to crack the 1k mark easily.

Then, of course, we start tacking on things like Haste and Belt of Battle... yea, things get stupid fast.

Actually make that 5 attacks because Frezy gives extra attack at highest attack bonus (and it doesn't stack with haste).

[mregecko]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm)

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr

[Ginger]

At level 20, this is 4 attacks. PA for 20, get +80 dmg per attack. Str 60 = +25 dmg, 2d6+3? base from the weapon. Adds up to 115 avg, x2 from Valorous = 230. x4 if all attacks hit = 920. This is huge, but not thousands.'

Still not seeing it, especially at lower levels.

EDIT: Frenzied Beserker'd. I think my math is bad anyway.


Ill break my math down

Supreme power attack every 1 to hit adds 4 damage for a 2 handed weapon

so 1 for weapon damage & sub par 30 strength
fb get 1 extra attack on a full round attack.
Shock trooper lets me just take the hit to AC so i make all my attacks.

((1 wp damage + 22 str + 80 Spower atk)*5 charge multiplier) *5 each attack = 2575

This is level 20 though.

[ahenobarbi]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm)

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr
That could work too. But you have to be careful. Suggestion to fall asleep won't work (it's not something you can just do). You could suggest to use non-lethal weapon. And be careful with trigger. Because you don't want enemies to be attacked non-lethally. And you don't want trigger to be a standard action (unless you want to burn celerity to use it).

[Wise Green Bean]

I had a thread about this a little while back.

Steadfast determination and a minor optimization will make that an auto-save by level 10ish, except for a natural 1.

The suggestion spell allows for implanted suggestions(look it up, it's there). Meaning that for the occasional natural 1, you can intentionally fail a save for the suggestion spell to go to sleep if you are about to attack friendlies.

The grease spell stops a FB cold, because DEX based checks(aka, balance checks) can't be made while in frenzy. So you fall on your face and flail for the remainder of the frenzy.

You can be the only non-flier in the party. Everyone has items of flight, you just wait for the wizard to give you the spell.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My favorite solution to the Frenzied Berserker problem was listed in these forums...

Suggestion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm)

At the start of the day, cast a Suggestion on the FB to "Fall Asleep" or "Stand still and do nothing until I say", etc... Basically something to render them obsolete. Have them willingly fail the Will Save.

The cool part is that Suggestion has a little known "Trigger" clause, so you can basically trigger your Suggestion to activate on an event (when your hear someone say "Snarfle") etc.

É voila! You have an instant kill-switch for your rogue frenzied berserker, at the low low cost of a 3rd level spell.

-- Mr

And as was stated, in the Spell Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) is this cute little phrase:

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Besides, you're going WELL outside the bounds of what the spell allows. This isn't a sleep spell that can affect any HD monster, this isn't Dominate Monster, this isn't Programmed Amnesia... what you suggest is just plain silly.

[lord_khaine]

I really think FB is a very stupid class, it gives the person who takes it an insane boost in melee power, while making the rest of the party pay the price, by risking getting cleaved down on a bad roll of the dice.

And besides the huge risks of bringing the berserker along for adventuring, then it also seems like people isnt paying much attention to how impossible it gets bringing him into a town, considering how little it would take to set him off on a cleaving spree in the middle of the town market :smalleek:

It gets even worse if the party have enemies who know about them, and might try and set the berserker off on purpose, for example by taking a shot at him while hidden, and then hoping to see the firework.

edit.


Steadfast determination and a minor optimization will make that an auto-save by level 10ish, except for a natural 1.

I think most of us are considering that the willsave would only be failed on a natural one, but i would personaly still considder that to big a risk to lose my char on, just because someone else wants to do damage in the tripple digit.


The suggestion spell allows for implanted suggestions(look it up, it's there). Meaning that for the occasional natural 1, you can intentionally fail a save for the suggestion spell to go to sleep if you are about to attack friendlies.

You cant intentialy fail a save, when you are compelled to attack people to the best of your ability.

[Ginger]

I really think FB is a very stupid class, it gives the person who takes it an insane boost in melee power, while making the rest of the party pay the price, by risking getting cleaved down on a bad roll of the dice.

And besides the huge risks of bringing the berserker along for adventuring, then it also seems like people isnt paying much attention to how impossible it gets bringing him into a town, considering how little it would take to set him off on a cleaving spree in the middle of the town market :smalleek:

It gets even worse if the party have enemies who know about them, and might try and set the berserker off on purpose, for example by taking a shot at him while hidden, and then hoping to see the firework.


I completely agree actually. I sure as hell wouldnt want someone else be one unless i was a wizard or something. This is why if i ever chose to roll one up, i ask all the players and the DM and make sure they know i could accidently murder everyone and get their OK

I always try to build a "Safe" one myself.

[Mari01]

And as was stated, in the Spell Description (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/suggestion.htm) is this cute little phrase:

"Asking the creature to do some obviously harmful act automatically negates the effect of the spell."

Besides, you're going WELL outside the bounds of what the spell allows. This isn't a sleep spell that can affect any HD monster, this isn't Dominate Monster, this isn't Programmed Amnesia... what you suggest is just plain silly.

Again I agree. Going to sleep isn't something you just DO. Suggestion only works for conscious actions. Lie down, go there, stop them. Going to sleep isn't one of these things.

I don't like frenzied berserker because the better you get, the more lethal you become to your party. Sooner or later, (sooner if you go around actively giving yourself weaknesses), you will fail that save, and someone in the group is going to die.

[Man on Fire]

As I recall, you merely delayed the inevitable, declared that 'it couldn't happen' and ignored the problem. Or you declared you would build in weaknesses to the FB which would enable an opponent with an IQ greater than 6 to shut him down completely.

No. You ignored every argument presented to you, while repeating these two arguments. You never adressed Thayan Knight solution either.


Pounce really has a way of ruining this. Also, reach-stacking. Large size + Spiked Chain (typical weapon loadout for a charge build focused on area-effect destruction) = 20' radius.

As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.


Also, splitting up the party? Always a BAD idea. If you get out of mutual reach of him, you also get out of mutual support range.

Playing with FB is quite different than playing with other thanks, but it's nothing that you should have a problem with. You can easily split up while being close enough. It requires strategy and thinking, but again, that's what makes this so fun.


Unfortunately, no one knows if the FB is going to try to TPK until it's his turn and he makes or fails his Will save(s). And once he fails that Will save, it's his turn, no one else can do a damn thing.

Also, you're deliberately leaving him open to be neutralized by opponents before he has a chance to act.

That's why in their turn ther players counter FB just in case. Will he make the save - fine. Won't he - fine either.. And


You won't know if you need to do so. And if you go first, then he will naturally attack these non-allies first. However, that also doesn't trigger the will save, because he hasn't run out of valid opponents yet. Delaying tactic, but doesn't solve the problem.

Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.


Go ahead and make him worthless against a good chunk of encounters. I'm sure that'll make him feel REALLY valuable.

He cannot do anything agains invisible opponents anyway. We are NOT looking for absolute and complete 100% solution, because there aren't any, we're looking for a set of tactis that will let the party wait out the frenzy, that's pretty much enough.


Not gonna happen. FB's deal THOUSANDS of damage a round, with insanely high attack bonuses. NOTHING is going to be able to 'tank that' for one round. Or even one attack

People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.

[Darius Kane]

Regarding the "FB is stoopid and a walking TPK" type posts:
Prcs aren't only for PCs, you know...

[ahenobarbi]

Regarding the "FB is stoopid and a walking TPK" type posts:
Prcs aren't only for PCs, you know...

Yes but it's good to know if the PrC is good for PC.

EDIT: And yes, FB is awesome PrC for really troublesome encounter. But must be used responsibly, if PCs don't realize who are they finding it can easily become TPK.

[Sutremaine]

Strictly speaking Righteous Wrath wouldn't work with Frenzy because it isn't a Barbarian's Rag
I'd be very surprised if it did, as the book it's in predates the book Frenzy is in. Also, the Barbarian's Rage doesn't force them to attack allies if all foes are down, so the feat doesn't really do much anyway.

[Deox]

One solution is to just burn your frenzies at the start of each day, while in a forcecage or similar prison.

[Mari01]

No other class makes you worry about your best friend murdering you because he stubbed his toe. You may think it's fun, but no character I've made (after the encounters I mentioned above) would adventure with a frenzied berserker. Everyone gets punished when something goes wrong. No other class is like that.

[lord_khaine]

No. You ignored every argument presented to you, while repeating these two arguments. You never adressed Thayan Knight solution either.

Because its not a solution?
It still requires the red wizard to get an action in before the FB triggers the TPK, and if he is dead, silenced or just slower than the berserker, then he cant do anything to stop him.


As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.

Unfortunately OP doesnt need either being large or having a reach weapon to cleave though ½ his party on a couple of unlucky rolls.


Playing with FB is quite different than playing with other thanks, but it's nothing that you should have a problem with. You can easily split up while being close enough. It requires strategy and thinking, but again, that's what makes this so fun.

If you are standing within his charge range you might as well stand besides him, and if you are further away getting ambushed will be nasty.


That's why in their turn ther players counter FB just in case. Will he make the save - fine. Won't he - fine either.. And

And this requires someone spending the entire battle doing nothing but holding an action to counter the FB to work proberly, while doing nothing to prevent the FB stepping on a arrow trap and murdering his party.


Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.


This i actualy agree with, delaying tactics would be enough.


People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.

Best i can imagine would be someone with combat reflexes, better reach and a truely insane trip modifier.


One solution is to just burn your frenzies at the start of each day, while in a forcecage or similar prison.

That does kinda beat most of the point around being a FB, as well as require some seriously highlevel magic to pull off.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nope, creatures from bag of tricks aren't vaild opponents, they're harmless. And delaying tactic DOES solve the problem with Frenzied Berserker.You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he attacks them as non-allies, and thus doesn't have a Will check to snap out of it because more than allies are left on the field, or he doesn't treat them as valid threats, makes a will check, and if he fails, goes after the party. Pick one.


He cannot do anything agains invisible opponents anyway. We are NOT looking for absolute and complete 100% solution, because there aren't any, we're looking for a set of tactis that will let the party wait out the frenzy, that's pretty much enough.Really? You don't evolve a method of See Invis by mid-levels? How do you deal with invisible opponents? That would be a fatal mistake in most games I play in. Heck, invisible snipers plinking him until he Frenzies would be... detrimental to the party's health.


People say you cannot make useful Samurai, but you did. Bet aking somebody who can hold FB back shouldn't be so hard.

Define 'useful'. Takahashi beat a Monk/FotF. That's... not exactly a strong commendation. He is a one-trick pony, that a significantly increasing number of opponents as you level will be immune to. He's, at best, Tier 4. He's a One Trick Pony... with plenty of things out there immune to his one trick.

Compare with a Dread Necro who can fear lockdown as a passive aura + Aura of Terror spell. And have disposable minions each more powerful in combat than Takahashi is. And who is immune to Takahashi's one trick. And who can still cast 9th level spells. And that's touted as a Tier 3 class.

Sure, he was a cute trick, but don't mistake him for anything else.

[Theoboldi]

I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe you could use a merciful weapon. I don't know if you are allowed to use nonlethal damage when in a frenzy, but a merciful weapon would allow you to attack nonlethaly without reducing your attack bonus, thus enabling you to do so while attacking to your best ability, just like the text demands.

Also, 1d6 bonus damage on top of that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't know if this has been suggested before, but maybe you could use a merciful weapon. I don't know if you are allowed to use nonlethal damage when in a frenzy, but a merciful weapon would allow you to attack nonlethaly without reducing your attack bonus, thus enabling you to do so while attacking to your best ability, just like the text demands.

Also, 1d6 bonus damage on top of that.

Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.

[Kazyan]

Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.

You can carry a backup weapon, though. Even in frenzy, I think an FB should be able to realize what's wrong (to some degree) and whip out their spare smashin' tool.

It's not a perfect method, but should make do for middling-OP.

[Ginger]

As we already estabilished, OP is neither large or using reach weapon.
I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....
...


Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.

I think I am going to approach my dm about house ruling frenzy as a mind altering as it is making do things my character wouldn't do normally.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd be very surprised if it did, as the book it's in predates the book Frenzy is in. Also, the Barbarian's Rage doesn't force them to attack allies if all foes are down, so the feat doesn't really do much anyway.

Righteous Wrath can stop a FB. Rage and frenzy can be active simultaneously and as long as the rage is on, so is righteous Wrath. If the frenzy was activated first (practically a given) then the rage will outlast it.

This doesn't help the op at all since he's not interested in playing an exalted character though.

Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.

If the other beatstick in the party has the elusive target feat then the FB's major source of damage, power attack, becomes a non-issue as well, dropping him back to just [w]+str*1.5. Combined with the suggestion to throw away his weapon this gets him down to 1d4+str*1.5 non-lethal against another melee pc. I don't see that being difficult to survive.

On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.

The slave collar mentioned above has potential though you need to be sure the guy controlling the FB is lower in the initiative.

Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.

Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.

If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.

The FB has to be played carefully and responsibly, but that doesn't mean it's unplayable.

Btw, not pouncing isn't the end of the world. If you can do more than 50 damage on one attack your charge is a save-or-die (with an admittedly low DC) regardless of how much actual damage it does and anything beyond 300 total for a charge is going to automatically kill almost anything in the MM.

Looking at the numbers in Ginger's post. If he was making a single attack instead of pouncing he'd still be doing over 500 damage on that one attack. Why do you need more than that? Or if you absolutely must pounce, drop some of the charge multipliers. 5 attacks that do 100 damage each is just as good as one attack that does 500; better even since the odds of getting 5 natural 1's in a row are absurdly low.

The problem isn't so much the FB as the inability to not over-optimize the FB. What in the world do you need 2500+ damage to kill?

[Azoth]

Dunno how useful this is now, but generally when I build a FB one of my failsafes is DR. A simple +1LA mineral warrior or quasilycanthrope template is usually enough to stop unwanted instances of Frenzy.

Granted, it won't stop everything, but it will stop the toe stubbing, random bar fight, kid throwing a rock, ect from making you kill an entire town.

Also for the RAW pains in the ass: If you say a falling plate bypasses DR since it wasn't an attack...a god wizard will sneak up on you while you are sleeping and PAO you permanently into a Monk.

[Theoboldi]

Lots of creatures, notably Undead and Constructs being on the list, are immune to non-lethal damage. Rendering your tank useless against a fairly large percentage of your opponents is not a good idea. Particularly when the best way to handle such opponents is generally with 'hulk smash'.

Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.

Of course, this could also end with the entire party unconscious or him still killing one before they can turn him back to nonlethal, but it's still better than everyone dying. It also solves the problem of him starting to kill people inside of towns. He'll still probably knock someone out, but at least he won't kill anyone.

Edit: If there is a wizard in the party, he could also convinve him to prepare a few celerities to use for speaking the command word in emergencies.

[Talderas]

Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?

IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.

[Deox]

That does kinda beat most of the point around being a FB, as well as require some seriously highlevel magic to pull off.

I like Supreme Power Attack. Honestly, the frenzy is just icing.

Also, fogs aren't high level magics.

[Goggalor]

Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.

Of course, this could also end with the entire party unconscious or him still killing one before they can turn him back to nonlethal, but it's still better than everyone dying. It also solves the problem of him starting to kill people inside of towns. He'll still probably knock someone out, but at least he won't kill anyone.

Edit: If there is a wizard in the party, he could also convinve him to prepare a few celerities to use for speaking the command word in emergencies.

This is what my party did with our FB. Worked like a charm, for the most part, unless you play with house rules that say once you have taken twice your HP in subdual, you actually start taking actual damage. :smalleek:

[Man on Fire]

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either he attacks them as non-allies, and thus doesn't have a Will check to snap out of it because more than allies are left on the field, or he doesn't treat them as valid threats, makes a will check, and if he fails, goes after the party. Pick one.

Sorry, but now I have to question if you know how Frenzy works, because what you describe here sure as hell isn't Frenzy.


During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own).

So no, there is nothing that states FB must considers people she attack either non-allies or cannot attack oponents she doesn't consider a threat.

Also, another thing that needs to be pointed out:


To end the frenzy before its duration expires, the character may attempt a DC 20 Will save once per round as a free action. Success ends the
frenzy immediately; failure means it continues

There is nothing that states FB cannot attempt to end the Frenzy when there are enemies, or those she percives as enemies, around. How about you actually read the rules before telling people how things works?


Really? You don't evolve a method of See Invis by mid-levels? How do you deal with invisible opponents?

Wizard/Cleric/thatmagicguy makes them visible or something, bet there is a spell for that.


That would be a fatal mistake in most games I play in. Heck, invisible snipers plinking him until he Frenzies would be... detrimental to the party's health.

Except if the party is or can become invisible too. Which was the point I was making and you decided to ignore to complain about things.


Define 'useful'.

Can do what he is supposed to do well.


Takahashi beat a Monk/FotF. That's... not exactly a strong commendation. He is a one-trick pony, that a significantly increasing number of opponents as you level will be immune to. He's, at best, Tier 4. He's a One Trick Pony... with plenty of things out there immune to his one trick.

Irrevelant, because my point was that you can build tank who can survive FB's attacks until his frenzy runs out, not build tank who knows more tricks than Warblade.


I mentioned that i wasnt large or reach using after he posted this....

Yes, but before I posted in response to his post, so I took this into account when writing my response.



Whatever. I dont consider hindering myself as a viable option. Of all of the built in weakness options, the collar was probably the only one i might implement.

Talk to your party wizard and DM about Red Wizard of Thay and Thayan Knight.

[lord_khaine]

Using the triggered suggestion can work too. The spells duration is effectively all day by mid-level and if the triggered suggestion is "throw your weapon as far as you can, away from me" the FB automatically switches to a much lower, non-lethal damage value since he can't just decide to go and pick his weapon back up before resuming his attack.


I cant see how throwing your weapon away in the middle of a deadly battle would count as a "reasonable" suggestion? :smallconfused:


On the not-frenzying berserker, a custom item of always on calm emotions wouldn't be at all expensive.

Yeah, because the custom magic item rules are not easily abused or mostly a guideline at all :smalltongue:


Even barring these almost perfect solutions there's also the fact that the party can generally arrange for the FB to be the last one to act in combat, giving him 2 opportunities to save for ending the frenzy before turning on them. Combined with a reroll option the odds of him attacking the party at the end of combat are absolutely miniscule.

It doesnt matter when the FB has his action, as long as the enemy can manage to die or disapear just before the FB's turn, then there is potential for dead people.
And where would you get the reroll option from?


Traps can be a problem, but that's as much the rogue's fault as anyone's. Nevermind the FB having uncanny dodge from his barb levels and traps having low-attack bonus values.

And FB is rarely known for having good AC, not to mention how this wont matter against a trap that targets a save.


If the enemy is attacking the FB from hiding that's a DM move, and kind of a nasty thing to do more than once in a great while. Same goes for AoE traps.

Well, if the party has smart enemies it would be strange for them to not exploit their biggest weakpoint.


Actually, the merciful weapon description states that it can switch between lethal and nonlethal on command. That means he can easily kill undead. And as long as he tells his allies the command word in advance, and they remember to use one standard action to speak it before the last undead or construct dies, they're (kinda) save from the TPK. It's not a perfect solution by any means, but if the party is willing to work together for this it's a fairly inexpensive solution to the problem.

Im pretty sure you need to hold the item to use its command word activation.


Does a FB need to perceive a creature to go after it?

IE, surrounding a FB with a wall of stone. If lacking blindsight or blindsense, the FB would no longer be aware of any of the party members.

The problem isnt finding an action to stop the FB from murdering you, the problem lies in being able to take it before he murder you.


I like Supreme Power Attack. Honestly, the frenzy is just icing.

Also, fogs aren't high level magics.

Well, i would say your cake has a unhealthy level of icing on it then.

As for fogs, unfortunately they are also not safe to let the berserker burn off his rage inside.

[LTwerewolf]

Have everyone make a bluff check and feign death. Can be considered a check that requires patience or concentration, thus autofail on the sense motive.

[Darius Kane]

So no, there is nothing that states FB must considers people she attack either non-allies or cannot attack oponents she doesn't consider a threat.
Yo, you missed something.

During a frenzy, the frenzied berserker must attack those she perceives as foes to the best of her ability. Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature (determine randomly if several potential foes are equidistant) and fight that opponent without regard to friendship, innocence, or health (the target’s or her own).

[Man on Fire]

Yo, you missed something.

Consider the fact that the part when FB starts attacking the players is in the phase where she must attack every nearest creature.


Should she run out of enemies before her frenzy expires, her rampage continues. She must then attack the nearest creature

When FB runs out of actual enemies, everybody is her enemy.

Also, no matter what it still doesnt change the fact that FB can attempt to end Frenzy whenever they want, not when there are not foes arround. So either way Sheeky's argument is still invaild.

[Theoboldi]

Im pretty sure you need to hold the item to use its command word activation.

As far as I know, that is stated nowhere in the rules. You only need to know the command word. Correct me if I'm wrong, but please give me the text passage where it says you need to hold the weapon.

[Hyde]

IHS to turn off grease.

Silly, but I felt it had to be mentioned.

I have a paladin that could probably tank the Berserker, at least long enough for someone to have whatever fail-safe go off. his ac is mid 60's at level 14, looks to cap around 78.

[Dr.Epic]

I have a question. If i threw a Crystal of Mind Cloaking in some armor. Would you allow the bonus to affect the will saves to exit or prevent frenzy?

I guess this would be more of a house rule as it doesn't say mind effecting anywhere in the frenzied description.

Would you considered a non-voluntary frenzy a mind-altering affect even though it is self inflicted?

I guess i am asking "Can a case be made?"

Just make sure the cleric has a good number of wands of calm emotions and you're fine.