Building a practical binder

[Sudain]

I'm considering building a wizard/sorrcer who's focuses on bindings. I want to be useful in the early levels so maybe buffs/summons early on?

I'm thinking I'll need Abjuration, Conjration, to make it happen. Enchantment, and possibly necromancy to make the bindings easier. From there illusion, evocation and transumation are avaliable to be banned(if needed).

I've seen the malkonvoker's handbook(though not recently).

Anyone had experience with this type of build?

[Tvtyrant]

The earliest binding spell that I know of is Lesser Planar Binding, which doesn't come on line until 5th level spells. Up until then you probably want to focus on summons.

You probably do not want Wizard/sorcerer. They do not mesh well together. Pick one of them (likely Wizard) and use that.

Alternatively you could grab the Fiendbinder from Tome of Magic (it actually only does demon binding, but there are like two demon binding classes in existence.) It lets you buy hell servants and command them, which works well when combined with multiple standard actions. Weaker than a Malconvoker by far though, and not much simpler.

Handbooks for you:
Mastering the Malconvoker (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker)= Generally how to play a Malconvoker
Summoning Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook)=Summoning in general
Practical Demonkeeping (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6320.0)= A long list of fiends you can bind and how they compare.
Look at my Elder Evils for high level binding options.

General Notes: Ring of Mighty Summons from Complete Mage is amazing for a summoner, as it doubles a summons HD. Combat lasts around 4-6 rounds average IME, so you lose little from the duration loss but gain much from the extra hit points.

[Sudain]

whoops! Yes I meant wizard or sorcerer, not multitasking. :)

I like the wizard's versatility, but that the sorcerer is charisma based(which the bindings like).

Humm... I'll have to think about the summoning aspect more; that may be worthwhile.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem with Sorcerer is that they have very few spells known, so if you are level 10 you have 1 5th level spell known. Using that single spell on Lesser Planar Binding becomes almost implausible, because it takes so much time and probably money.

[Sudain]

I agree doing it as a sorcerer is limiting as it not only limits your 5th level spells; but you eat up other spell slots for supporting spells, (Dimensional Anchor(Abj), Magic Circle against Evil(Abj), Touch of Idiocy(Ench), Suggestion(Ench), Charm Monster(Ench), Geas, Lesser(Ench), Spectral Hand(Necro), Bestow Curse(Necro), Enervation(Necro), Remove Curse(Abj))

I don't see how it costs much money; but time I can see if I'm trying to get someone who's got a high CHA score.

[Dusk Eclipse]

whoops! Yes I meant wizard or sorcerer, not multitasking. :)

I like the wizard's versatility, but that the sorcerer is charisma based(which the bindings like).

Humm... I'll have to think about the summoning aspect more; that may be worthwhile.

Wizards only depend on two stats (Int and Con) so you can safetly put points into Cha (nevermind you can buff your Cha score relatively easy), plus debuffing your bound outsider is easier as a wizard.

Finally if you also plan on summoning regularly Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) is hands down your best option.

[eggs]

One of the things I like about Wu Jen is that they get their first binding spell 2 levels before the wizard (making the concept work that little bit better in low-level games) and their binding spells have HD caps 2-6 higher than Wizards. No dimension anchor's annoying, but can be overcome with Portal Domain access and is not as much of a problem with Elementals/Fey/Nagas/Dragons as it would be with Outsiders. Pushing one into Malconvoker could be a pretty slick setup.

[Tvtyrant]

One of the things I like about Wu Jen is that they get their first binding spell 2 levels before the wizard (making the concept work that little bit better in low-level games) and their binding spells have HD caps 2-6 higher than Wizards. No dimension anchor's annoying, but can be overcome with Portal Domain access and is not as much of a problem with Elementals/Fey/Nagas/Dragons as it would be with Outsiders. Pushing one into Malconvoker could be a pretty slick setup.

But they only get "Spirit Creatures." all incorporeal undead,
all fey, all elementals, creatures in astral form or with
astral bodies (but not a creature physically present on
the Astral Plane), all creatures of the spirit subtype (see
Oriental Adventures), spirit folk and telthors (see
Unapproachable East), and spirit creatures created by
spells such as dream sight or wood wose
Which is actually pretty good, now that I think about it. All Fey and all incorporeal undead is a sweet ability.

Someone should make a handbook about that...

[Sudain]

Are wujen required to learn specific spells like wizards to be able to cast them or do the have full access to their spell lists? I think the former but it doesn't say; just that they are prepaired casters.

I'm guessing they don't have spellbooks.

[Urpriest]

Are wujen required to learn specific spells like wizards to be able to cast them or do the have full access to their spell lists? I think the former but it doesn't say; just that they are prepaired casters.

I'm guessing they don't have spellbooks.

They do have spellbooks, they're pretty much the only class besides Wizards that do.

[eggs]

Someone should make a handbook about that...
:smalltongue:
(direct link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13489944&postcount=5) for anyone looking for that)

[Tvtyrant]

:smalltongue:
(direct link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13489944&postcount=5) for anyone looking for that)

And saved! I am not sure how you got many of the creatures on there. How do Naga get called?

[eggs]

And saved! I am not sure how you got many of the creatures on there. How do Naga get called?
Those are in the Spirit subtype EDIT: "Monster Manual Monsters" writeup in Oriental Adventures, along wih Rashakas, Ogre Mages, Dragon turtles and maybe a couple other things.

There are probably some other creatures that probably should be in there, like the Elemental Warriors in MM4 (Ogre Mages with heavy samurai motifs), but I tried to stick to the parameters that were specifically laid out in CDiv or OA.

[Tvtyrant]

Those are in the Spirit subtype EDIT: "Monster Manual Monsters" writeup in Oriental Adventures, along wih Rashakas, Ogre Mages, Dragon turtles and maybe a couple other things.

There are probably some other creatures that probably should be in there, like the Elemental Warriors in MM4 (Ogre Mages with heavy samurai motifs), but I tried to stick to the parameters that were specifically laid out in CDiv or OA.

It would be one of the maybe 5 books I don't own >_>

But thank you for the guide! I might roll up a Wu Jen summoner one of these days.

[Sudain]

Ah; thank you.

I'm guessing it'll be fun to look into a wujen sometime but I most likely won't go that route for now.

I like the idea of ultimate magus doing the binding purely from a giggles standpoint. DM: "What do you mean you cast extended lesser planar binding? You don't have a 6 level spell slot... Whuh.... I hate you by the way...."

Alright, I'll have to look into Malconvoker more; I'm also thinking about going into initate of 7 fold veil; but that's probably going to distill the build and I should make a separate character for that.

On a practical level(playing the build), does it feel good or have you guys felt that it get bogged down and the party resenting it?

[Tvtyrant]

Ah; thank you.

I'm guessing it'll be fun to look into a wujen sometime but I most likely won't go that route for now.

I like the idea of ultimate magus doing the binding purely from a giggles standpoint. DM: "What do you mean you cast extended lesser planar binding? You don't have a 6 level spell slot... Whuh.... I hate you by the way...."

Alright, I'll have to look into Malconvoker more; I'm also thinking about going into initate of 7 fold veil; but that's probably going to distill the build and I should make a separate character for that.

On a practical level(playing the build), does it feel good or have you guys felt that it get bogged down and the party resenting it?
One further piece of advice; take the Conjurer wizard variant if you go the wizard route. Rapid summoning and Enhanced summoning are amazing, while Spontaneous Summoning may be useful (but probably not, so I would not take that portion.)

As for how other players do with a summoner/caller; IME it depends on how you use them. If you concentrate on tank style summons and calls your party will usually be happy, because it keeps them safe. If you grab DPS or utility you step on toes, especially if you play it to the hilt.

[Sudain]

The Malconvoker handbook suggests maxxing bluff; but you use cha checks to bind; not bluff checks. am I missing something; why would this be useful?

[Tvtyrant]

The Malconvoker handbook suggests maxxing bluff; but you use cha checks to bind; not bluff checks. am I missing something; why would this be useful?

Because of Infernal Legion. You get to summon two fiends for every one you would normally summon, but you have to make bluff checks to convince them you are evil (unless I am forgetting something). So maxing bluff allows you to do crazy things like summon 12 Gelgulons with a maximized summon at the same time.

[Sudain]

Humm.... alright that makes sense, thanks!