Building an Infernal Monster [3.5 ToB]

[Nanoblack]

So I have a game coming up this weekend where I was previously playing a crusader so as to expose my DM to the Tome of Battle. Previously he had been super wary of it due to all of the standard silly arguments against it you'll hear everywhere. After a near rocks fall, I die situation, he seceded that the book is balanced.

So now here I am this last weekend he tells me that one player is going to be turning evil and asks if I would like to join. Evil being my forte, I of course said yes and went back to fondly remembering this homebrew discipline by Xefas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059).

No aspect of this character is rooted in this game yet, so everything is still up in the air, but I would prefer to have dwarf as my race. Otherwise, I'm not entirely sure which Martial adept would be better for the purposes of building a character focused in this discipline. My immediate thoughts drift to swordsage since they have monk damage progression, but warblade maneuver recovery seems like it would synergize better and the BaB would likely be a great boon to get things running.

So now I ask you, playground, can you help me put together a fun character focused on Infernal monster? Main points I need addressed:


Race
Class
Ability score priority
Feats
Maneuvers
Magic item suggestions

[LTwerewolf]

Why not go with something like a tiefling swordsage?

[Nanoblack]

Well Tiefling would be a no for two reasons: One because even as a lesser planetouched, the ability modifiers it gets arent exactly what an Infernal monster needs. Two because the "Infernal Monster" is not the same as infernal typically means in D&D as it is a reference to exalted.

[LTwerewolf]

There's always the half-fiend template, however that's a really high LA for what you get.

[Nanoblack]

I think you misunderstand. Look at the martial discipline linked above. Infernal Monster is a homebrew Tome of battle discipline.

[LTwerewolf]

Not sure why it rules out the tiefling swordsage though. There's nothing in there (and in fact there's a few things in there that support) a weapon finesse/dex based character, but if you just want brute force, go with the usual methods that are posted all the time. The class you choose to go with it matters more than the discipline itself.

[God Imperror]

A lesser Maeluth? Fiend Folio pg. 137

They are "dwarfs", and they are evil, and they have a +4 to CON.

What level are you going to play? Is homebrew going to be allowed?

I would go with warblade/fist of the forest.

[Nanoblack]

Forgot to mention that, level 8 currently. And the only homebrew currently approved is the Infernal Monster discipline. Anything else I can at least ask for.

[Vicerious]

Why not go with something like a tiefling swordsage?

Because tiefling offers nothing to and gains nothing from this discipline. It's not "infernal" in the fiendish sense, more the abhorrent-to-all-creation sense.

Stat priority would seem to be Str, then Con, then Dex, then the martial adept stat, then dumps.

For race, my first thought is something with Powerful Build - the best choice being goliath (Races of Stone) for +4 Str, +2 Con, and -2 Dex. They're even better if you can buy off or otherwise get rid of that pesky +1 LA.
Second choice for race would be half-giant for similar reasons.
If you can't get either of those, I'd recommend playing a full-blooded orc.
Consider adding the dragonborn template (reflavored as necessary) for an extra +2 Con and -2 Dex, plus a bonus ability. Mind or wings would serve you best, I think.

Warblade might work best for you, since you'll probably want to focus on just a few maneuvers and they have the most straightforward recovery. Power Attack is a given feat choice. Spending a warblade feat on Endurance opens up Steadfast Determination to cover your weak save. Branch out a bit into Iron Heart (IHS, Tornado, Wall of Blades) and maybe Tiger Claw (Blood in the Water, Hunter's Sense).

Alternatively, you could go swordsage and either dual-wield or capitalize on unarmed damage. If you go TWF, just grab enough Dex to get the TWF feats, skip Weapon Finesse, and don't otherwise change your start priority. Take your favorite Shadow Hand stance and then take the feat Shadow Blade to add your Dex mod as a bonus to your damage rolls. Between your extra attacks per round and massive bonuses to damage, you'll carve through enemies with ease.

A one-level dip in barbarian will net you some extra rage and pounce through lion totem.
A two-level dip in totemist can get you 4 claw attacks and some minor bonuses.

[Nanoblack]

Thank you, exactly the advice I was needing. While I have your attention, are there any magic items you would recommend?

[Vicerious]

Hmmm... you can make good use of anything that's useful to a barbarian. Make sure you grab the typical +X items, of course.

You might like the sudden stunning or stunning surge weapon properties from the Magic Item Compendium. If you're going to be boosting your attacks per turn, then you might get some mileage out of the very inexpensive brute gauntlets. Focus on getting special ability enhancements on your weapons and let your crazy strength take care of accuracy. That said, if you do need a bit of +hit, take a look at the discipline enhancement in ToB. Don't forget about weapon crystals.

An anklet of translocation is great for improving mobility, but the shadow cloak from Drow of the Underdark is even better. You're probably going to want to pick up some form of flight if you didn't choose dragonborn wings.

Make sure the armor you wear leaves a little room for your raging Dex. Mithral and the nimble enhancement can help there. The blurring enhancement will provide some important miss chance. The fortification line is always indispensable. Don't forget about armor crystals.

[Xefas]

I just wanted to say that I was having a crappy day, and seeing this thread was a great pick-me-up :smallbiggrin:. Oh, and two comments:

1) Infernal Monster is going to be a tiny bit stronger than the nine canon disciplines in the Tome of Battle, I think. It's not game-breaking, or even capable of bumping a martial adept up a tier (or even close), but if you think that your DM might regress to banning all martial content based on a few big punches or a badass World-Breaker Grip then you might not want to risk it.

2) If you do go through with this, I (and I'm hopefully not the only one) would find it quite awesome to get a recounting of how things went. I've run a few 1v1 test battles with the Infernal Monster, but there's nothing quite like live playtesting.

[Artillery]

Goliath with half-ogre template.
Use an Ogre Maul.
Huge one would be 4d8 x3 crit
It would weigh 200lbs. On crit it sends people flying backwards and deal an additional 1d10.
Its from arms and armor.

You are large and wield huge weapons.
Ability point mods of
+16 str -4 dex +6 con -2 int -2 cha
+4 Natural armor -1 ac size
LA +2

Lion totem barbarian for pounce. Whirling frenzy rage variant. You are a thing of nightmares.
Warblade after that.

[Nanoblack]

I just wanted to say that I was having a crappy day, and seeing this thread was a great pick-me-up :smallbiggrin:. Oh, and two comments:

1) Infernal Monster is going to be a tiny bit stronger than the nine canon disciplines in the Tome of Battle, I think. It's not game-breaking, or even capable of bumping a martial adept up a tier (or even close), but if you think that your DM might regress to banning all martial content based on a few big punches or a badass World-Breaker Grip then you might not want to risk it.

2) If you do go through with this, I (and I'm hopefully not the only one) would find it quite awesome to get a recounting of how things went. I've run a few 1v1 test battles with the Infernal Monster, but there's nothing quite like live playtesting.

I don't really think it'll reflect that way. It's strikes don't really add any damage and Infernal Monster form takes a bit to wind up, so I think I'll be fine until he goes into cardiac arrest over Fist of the Old Ones.

My main reason for even switching to this over my soon to be Eternal Blade is that the other evil character is playing the manipulative, sneaky type. I want the Infernal Monster to have a front row seat when he tries something on me and I tell him and Grazzt to choke on their own blood. Plus the contrast would be nice.

Also, thanks to everyone in the thread for all of the helpful suggestions! Here is the current version of the character sheet (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=470849), just missing items as I am still deciding. (Please note that Bloodclaw PRC has been converted to use Infernal Monster Discipline instead)

[Nanoblack]

Well, in an effort to not let you down, I managed to squeak this guy into a level one game last night and I'm enjoying it immensely. I decided to go with Full blooded orc for his race and Xefas' Martial Adept base class. Starting with a 22 str isn't too shabby.

As for actual performance? Well the discipline is relatively lackluster in the department of lvl1 maneuvers. Raging behemoth charge was decent for clearing out Kobold nests quickly, but I found myself using ACRR more often just for the bonus stats. I also briefly considered using one of my starting maneuvers to grab something from Malfeasant Heart, but I figured stats and mobility were more important since I already have enough damaged to 1-shot a barbarian with a dead kobold.

Which brings me to my next point: The rules text regarding improvised weapons? Probably the best thing about everything right now and actually providing incentives to actively scavenge during combat makes things dynamic and interesting rather than just walking around with a table leg all day. Improvised weapons used last night: four dead kobolds, the head of a broken pickaxe, a door, and several barrels of various flammable substances. I fear for the day I get world breaker grip...


Not much to say about plot, as it was just your standard mine clearing fare. Oh, forgot the last improvised weapon I used right at the end: a carriage. :smallfurious:

[Tokuhara]

Goliath with half-ogre template.
Use an Ogre Maul.
Huge one would be 4d8 x3 crit
It would weigh 200lbs. On crit it sends people flying backwards and deal an additional 1d10.
Its from arms and armor.

You are large and wield huge weapons.
Ability point mods of
+16 str -4 dex +6 con -2 int -2 cha
+4 Natural armor -1 ac size
LA +2

Lion totem barbarian for pounce. Whirling frenzy rage variant. You are a thing of nightmares.
Warblade after that.

Nah. 2 Exotic Weapon Proficiencies for a Gold Greathorn Minotaur GreatHammer. At Large, it's 2d8 with a 19-20 x4 Critical. Dunno what it'd be at Huge, but it'd be scary as all hell.

[Scerpico]

Might be a bit late but I'll throw my last build into the ring;

Half-Minotaur, mineral warrior Water Orc.

More than a few people are probably spluttering at that but for a +2 level adjustment you get a behemoth of a character who can tank most anything and use just about anything nearby as an improvised weapon (such as the central pillar of a Temple) while doing a pretty reasonable impression of the incredible Hulk.
Played one of these as a Crusader in a Dinosaur Hunting game a while back and saved the party a couple of times by using dead Raptors as clubs.

Best Moment of the campaign was Drop-kicking a Megaraptor through a wall and into another Raptor, saving the Halfling Swordsage from being flensed.

[kardar233]

Nah. 2 Exotic Weapon Proficiencies for a Gold Greathorn Minotaur GreatHammer. At Large, it's 2d8 with a 19-20 x4 Critical. Dunno what it'd be at Huge, but it'd be scary as all hell.

A Heavy Greathorn Greathammer would only take 1 EWP, and would do 2d8 damage or 3d8 when Large.

[Tokuhara]

A Heavy Greathorn Greathammer would only take 1 EWP, and would do 2d8 damage or 3d8 when Large.

I was talking a Huge Heavy Greathorn Greathammer, so would that be 4d8? It's 2 sizes larger (1 actual + Heavy) than the "standard" one