Just a quick question about petals

[Invader]

Where can I find the PC stats? I know the race is listed in the MMIII but I don't see anything about player stats listed.

Thanks

[Deadline]

PC stats can be derived from monster stats with the following method:

If the monster attribute is and even number, subtract 10 from it to get the racial stat bonus for a PC. If the monster attribute is an odd number, subtract 11 from it to get the racial stat bonus for a PC.

So for example, the Petal has a Strength of 3, and a Dexterity of 20. So that means a player Petal's stat adjustments for those two stats would be:

Strength: 3-11 = -8
Dexterity: 20-10 = +10

This information is located in the DMG, pg. 172. I think there is a special procedure to follow for deriving an Int mod, but it's pretty close to the above.

[Kazyan]

Yeah, you just follow the reverse-engineering procedure. There are some gems you can get from that--the Greensnake Naga and Marrulurk being two of them.

The Petal is an example of WotC fiddling the stats to match the combat numbers they wanted. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Tinkerbell to be more durable than a Commoner, but they gotta be able to tank a cantrip, so they have that +4 Con.

[Invader]

Huh I didn't know that, thank you. :smallsmile:

[nedz]

Well you have to be a little careful because some monster stats use the Elite Array ─ normally those with class levels.

Also, if it has 4 HD or more, you can never be sure which stat they bumped. This kind of breaks the technique.

[Starbuck_II]

Where can I find the PC stats? I know the race is listed in the MMIII but I don't see anything about player stats listed.

Thanks

Don't have Petals havce LA +2 (Cohort) meaning they can't be PCs only Cohorts?
Because the LA for PCs are LA -- since they only have Cohort LA?

[Invader]

Don't have Petals havce LA +2 (Cohort) meaning they can't be PCs only Cohorts?
Because the LA for PCs are LA -- since they only have Cohort LA?

I wondered about that as well but people seem to be constantly talking about playing them as PC's.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I wondered about that as well but people seem to be constantly talking about playing them as PC's.

Eh, Petals aren't that powerful AFAIR so letting someone play them even if their were intended as cohorts doesn't strike me as unbalancing or overpowered, though as always YMMV.

[Darius Kane]

Also, if it has 4 HD or more, you can never be sure which stat they bumped. This kind of breaks the technique.
Monsters don't really bump their stats from RHD. Only additional RHD above the base RHD and class levels bump stats. The "bumps" are included in the stats and are considered innate like other race ability score adjustments. You don't change that.
Or at least that's what I recall reading, but I can't find it in the SRD.

[Golden Ladybug]

I recall reading a statement from WotC about Cohort LA, and it said something to the effect of "these are intended for Cohorts, so the LA is assigned with the assumption that you're picking them up with Leadership or whatever. If you want to use them for PCs, you can, but be warned that we didn't balance them with that in mind"

Does anyone else remember seeing something like this?

Regardless, I think that allowing someone to play a Petal isn't going to be too gamebreaking. They've got some good stats, and a fly speed, but they're not super special awesome, and the player is going to be hurting pretty bad being two levels behind the others.

[VGLordR2]

I recall reading a statement from WotC about Cohort LA, and it said something to the effect of "these are intended for Cohorts, so the LA is assigned with the assumption that you're picking them up with Leadership or whatever. If you want to use them for PCs, you can, but be warned that we didn't balance them with that in mind"

Does anyone else remember seeing something like this?


The Glossary entry for Level Adjustment (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=glossary_dnd_leveladjustment&alpha=) says something very similar to that in the second paragraph. By my reading of this text, monsters with (cohort) LA can be used as PC's, but it is not recommended.

[Kazyan]

If you ignore the (cohort) warning, petals are one of the best LA +2 races in the game, second only to templated horribleness. In exchange for one level back in powers, the psion is getting a lot. it's not just the stat mods; it's DR, flight, and Tiny size making you stupendously hard to kill early on, when the LA is hitting the hardest.

There are two unprecedented things in the petal's racial traits: the first is the sleep songs, which no one cares about, but it's the second one that makes them "inappropriate": all-day flight at ECL 3. WotC has been very good about denying any character access to serious flight before ECL 5, with Alter Self cheese being the only reasonable way out, and they usually make you wait until ECL 6, too. And, note that you can only get one as a cohort if you're ECL 6.

RAI is kind of a dirty word around here, but I think the flight issue is why they're intended as cohorts. It's not the Tiny size; the rather bizarre Jermlaine was updated to LA+0 in MMII. Which incidentally can Alter Self into a Petal.

[LordBlades]

be warned that we didn't balance them


This could very well be a general disclaimer for all 3.5 books and it wouldn't be wrong at all.

What Wotc thought balanced or not has only a very, very remote link to reality. Only you know the power level of your game and if a given option is too weak, too strong or just about right.

@ Kazyan: How is using Alter Self exactly as designed (they even have a whole sentence regarding the limits on fly speed) cheese?

[Spuddles]

If you ignore the (cohort) warning, petals are one of the best LA +2 races in the game, second only to templated horribleness. In exchange for one level back in powers, the psion is getting a lot. it's not just the stat mods; it's DR, flight, and Tiny size making you stupendously hard to kill early on, when the LA is hitting the hardest.

There are two unprecedented things in the petal's racial traits: the first is the sleep songs, which no one cares about, but it's the second one that makes them "inappropriate": all-day flight at ECL 3. WotC has been very good about denying any character access to serious flight before ECL 5, with Alter Self cheese being the only reasonable way out, and they usually make you wait until ECL 6, too. And, note that you can only get one as a cohort if you're ECL 6.

RAI is kind of a dirty word around here, but I think the flight issue is why they're intended as cohorts. It's not the Tiny size; the rather bizarre Jermlaine was updated to LA+0 in MMII. Which incidentally can Alter Self into a Petal.

I believe their are a number of anthropomorphic animals that get flight at ECL1.

[Rubik]

I believe their are a number of anthropomorphic animals that get flight at ECL1.Yep. Anthrobats even gain +6 Wisdom, and all for a 5' base land speed and a -2 to Str.

Who needs to walk when you can fly or ride your trusty riding dog/mule/fiendish tarrasque?

[Kaustic]

I had a friend play a pretty scary Gestalt Gished out Petal...I never wanted her to get in my square. Ever.

[Kazyan]

@ Kazyan: How is using Alter Self exactly as designed (they even have a whole sentence regarding the limits on fly speed) cheese?

It strikes me as shady to use weird corner-cases of the Humanoid type to gain benefits like those of spells a level higher. YMMV, though. Alter Self was published when the interesting things you could get from a Humanoid were, say, +2 to saves against magic or some claws. Not flight or a load of natural armor. All bets are probably off for other types, though...hmm.

Anyway, I stand corrected about the number of exceptions to low-ECL flight. I've overestimated WotC's thoroughness in trying to balance their game.