Breaking the mold: Character De-Optimization

[Quanqued]

So, I originally read about character optimization years ago when DM'ing a game and having players ask about odd build options which were suspiciously well thought out and were later to be found after a quick search online. I was entertained to learn that my years of finding interesting build synergies has such a large and faithful following online. However, optimization is the easy part to my mind; in fact I often limit my optimization so that hopefully the smell of cheese doesn't become overwhelming. That said, I've primarily played in very high powered to epic campaigns (some of you may be familiar with Shemeska's long-running story hours on EN World, as two examples).

I've since moved geographically and am playing with a new gaming group with some fantastic people in the group. However, they are fairly unaccustomed to the character power levels found in my previous gaming groups. I built what I viewed as a fairly basic, not exceptionally flashy, character with a couple tricks and found the character to be annoyingly dominating. Now, I enjoy taking a character background and theme and seeing how to make it effective, but I'm finding it difficult to break the habit of optimizing beyond this group's normal levels. Unbalancing my character in relation to the other characters is no fun for myself or the other players, and especially so for the dm to keep things balanced.

I tend to like playing a sorcerer as the magic style appeals to me. I've considered limiting myself to core only, but even in there I find plenty of "preferred" spell and feat selections. I do feel that I shouldn't pick deliberately bad choices any more than I should optimize in ways that don't make sense.

Rather than a specific build, are there any others that found themselves wanting to tone down their power (be it generating npc's as a dm, or playing a lower powered character)? What are some of the decisions you might make if you found yourself in this situation? What spells might you choose so as to be effective without being overbearing? How might you keep such a character fresh without resorting to repeating the same basic tactics over and over again in a longer running campaign?



TIA,

~Quan

[Eonir]

Since you are playing a core only sorcerer, what you could do is roll randomly for your spells known. Go online and find a dice roller that allows for dX dice rolls (like this (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/dice/dice.htm) one) and roll a dice that corresponds with the number of spells that level) That will definitely knock you down in power, but still making you a full caster.

I did this once, and at first I was really trepiditious (not sure if that's a word, but go with it) about it, but having a completely random selection of spells to solve challenges with ending being A TON of fun.

[eggs]

Optimizing quirky lower-powered classes and mechanics is usually a good way to tone down.

Like in my game, I've been playing a Paladin of Freedom/Storm Sentinel with a Legacy Weapon Glass Eye for a few months. I got to dig around splat books, fiddle with level progression and work out some combos to stick onto the build, and by focusing on some rarely-used mechanics like Dragonmarks and Legacy items, I got some interesting pieces to move around in those puzzles, but I also got to keep the character limited to a pretty reasonable power level compared to the rest of the group.

With a Sorcerer, there are the lower-powered, underused mechanics where some of the other mechanical systems like Truenaming and Magic of Incarnum intersect casting mechanics (all those Truespeech and Incarnum spells). There are also some interesting classes that lose caster levels or brute power, but open some unique and rarely-used mechanics like Dragon Magazine's Spell Sovereign (makes temporary living spells) or Magic of Eberron's Dragon Prophet (specializes in the tactically difficult Dragon Prophesier feats).

Or just find some weird spells to focus in, like making a character a Evard's Menacing Tentacles or Rainbow Blast specialist instead of grabbing the gamechangers like Celerity or typical control/unstoppable-blast-to-win routes.

[Rubik]

Despite the fact that I know tons of ways to break the game (many of which I came up with myself), I tend to optimize for things other than power when actually playing.

For instance, I like playing shaper psions partially because their powers have insane utility for thinking outside the box, and partially because they can be made for massive endurance, so I optimize for both of those.

[Axier]

I love the radom sorcerer spells idea, but I also like making a Stalwart Battle sorcerer, but not have them good at melee.

Basically, you get more HP and BAB, but you don't use martial weapons, or use a weak one, and don't use the armor.

Then, you build your spell list with the spells that manipulate your own life. Such as that empathic healing one, and blade of blood, things like that. It makes for an interesting style, and you have much less munitions to throw around.

Althernatively, you can focus almost completely on melee, using your only spells for buffs, and maybe a couple of reserve feats. Less utility, less blasting, more swordplay. I once thought of a concept sorcerer that, in a kingdom where magic is shuned, was trained by his father to channel his magical blood into his physical form, to better blend with society, and become a powerful solider.

[Hopeless]

The best I did along those lines was a halfling sorceror using 3.0 rules and used the character generator that was supplied ending up with Str 11 (-2 Str already included), Dexterity 16 (+2 Dex incl), Constitution 14, Intelligence 14, Wisdom 14 and Charisma 17 wen the traditional route of selecting Toughness as the 1st level feat and then Extend Spell at 3rd so I could pick up Eschew Material at 6th as I had to pick up a couple of component spells along the way (Read Magic, Identify, Mage Armour, etc) although Identify wasn't effected by that feat.

Spellwise:
0th: Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Disrupt Undead, Mage Hand, Read Magic at 2nd and Ray of Frost at 5th (I think)
1st: Magic Missile, Shield, Identify at 3rd (only arcane spellcaster and at least I tried to make sure the right people got the magic items instead of them being seized by certain players...), Mage Armour at 5th and thanks to being able to swap out Summon Familiar for Extra Spell got Endure Elements around the same level.
2nd: Knock at 4th, Endurance at 5th although the dm refused to allow it to increase hp even temporarily but because of Extend Spell could double the time of Mage Armour and Shield by casting them as 2nd level spells

Went Sorceror/Rogue 5th/1st as original character backstory had the dm bothered to read it would have revealed she couldn't go higher than that level unless she passed a ritual that would have turned a family symbol into her familiar and had planned on either Ranger or druid instead even going so far to having her tutor having been generated as a Sorceror/Wizard but oh well...

Have you checked out Gamerstable podcast?
Its just that when I read the name of this thread i assumed it was a take they did on an actual play where they used characters far from optimised and is well worth a listen!

[Telonius]

I tend to build to the skill level of the group (including the DM). Gauging the power level of the game is an important part of setting up the campaign. It's a conversation that everybody should have before they build their characters. If it's a bunch of blasty sorcerers and Core Fighters with Greater Weapon Specialization, I'm not going to show up with a Beholder Mage.

When I do "de-optimize," I usually picture the character as being a specialist within a very narrow field of their class. A Wizard who's so in love with Fire that he wants to learn every Fire spell possible; or a Cleric who's totally focused on one aspect of their deity. Build the spells and feat choices and (maybe especially) skills around that.

[Saskia]

are there any others that found themselves wanting to tone down their power (be it generating npc's as a dm, or playing a lower powered character)? What are some of the decisions you might make if you found yourself in this situation? What spells might you choose so as to be effective without being overbearing? How might you keep such a character fresh without resorting to repeating the same basic tactics over and over again in a longer running campaign?

I like druids. I like clerics too, but I like druids a lot. Even core druid, without PrC, beastskin armor, or MM2/3 Wild Shape is pretty brutal, and it's just flat out OP in newbie-type low-op games unless you just really like badgers. Clerics just have too many good spells not to take them. 3.5 expects even in core a baseline competence above "completely uninitiated". I think that's part of why 4E is popular; the learning curve is so much smoother.

What I usually do as a caster in low-op campaigns is just prepare/learn mostly situational utility spells and never ever take DMM. Among complete newcomers to the game you can eschew natural casting and the move action to retrieve spell components can be extremely balancing.

Alternately you can just take good illusion spells as sorcerer and not waste time with vulgar plebeian spells like fireball and charm person :smalltongue:

[jedipilot24]

Have someone take the Shadowstriker and Shadowspy PrC's from Complete Champion. I haven't seen them on any of the tier lists but I know that they're very mediocre.
This could actually make for a fun game, deliberately building characters that aren't optimized and giving the underpowered, overlooked classes and PrC's some time in the limelight.

[hirojinbrodie]

In situations like this I fall upon the old belief that the best type of character is the one you enjoy. Play something that is truly off the wall, and even if there are weaknesses, the rest of the group will protect you. For example, I played a warforged scout with a titan bloodline and a sincere belief that he was a real boy. So a very messed up Pinocchio tale. Let me make this clear. The character constantly got the group in trouble, but in the end his quirks are what made the campaign go. Once he finally became a "real boy" I lost quite a bit of interest.

My suggestion? Add some odd quirks that allow you to focus on the feel of the character as opposed to the power. Seriously just go for the most lush and complex character you can come by. You will be endlessly thankful that you did.

I had played a cleric in a group and switched to a dragon shaman. The cleric was arguably more powerful, but I found the group worked better then before once I placed in my copper dragon shaman, whose penchant for jokes and blatant lies in story form kept the groups spirits up.

[Quanqued]

I tend to build to the skill level of the group (including the DM). Gauging the power level of the game is an important part of setting up the campaign.
Yes, that's exactly why I posted this. For all the fun in thought exercises for optimization, playing in an unbalanced group takes away the fun for everyone.



Have you checked out Gamerstable podcast?
Its just that when I read the name of this thread i assumed it was a take they did on an actual play where they used characters far from optimised and is well worth a listen!
I have not, although it's now on my todo list. It's all pure coincidence if there was any relation to the post title and their podcast. I may have to put together a page on this sometime.



Optimizing quirky lower-powered classes and mechanics is usually a good way to tone down.
Since our party has no cleric and the only person with healing is a bard (there's an indicator in power level right there), I've decided to use Arcane Disciple (and supporting feats) to get access to healing for the party as a sorcerer. That at least trims down feats to something that benefits everyone equally.


Since you are playing a core only sorcerer, what you could do is roll randomly for your spells known. Go online and find a dice roller that allows for dX dice rolls
This is a great idea, very simple to implement but still lets me try to find creative uses for spells; actually it kind of demands it. I actually wrote a script that scrapes the SRD sorc/wizard spell list and randomly generates spells known through 9th level. If any of the cheese spells come up (polymorph, I'm looking at you), I'll have to decide how I'm going to limit them.

[Kesnit]

I actually wrote a script that scrapes the SRD sorc/wizard spell list and randomly generates spells known through 9th level. If any of the cheese spells come up (polymorph, I'm looking at you), I'll have to decide how I'm going to limit them.

Since you wrote the script, could you just remove those spells from the random generator?

[Quanqued]

Since you wrote the script, could you just remove those spells from the random generator?

Yep - not that I would use it much, but I suppose there's no reason to scrape the srd more than once which would allow pruning the spells beforehand. It's not like the content is liable to change.

[Gavinfoxx]

unless you just really like badgers.

"This is the Honey Badger"...

[visigani]

Try this... "Nothing Flashy". If it would make someone suspicious that you are a user of magic... don't use it. No fireballs, no animated ropes, no enlarging persons, no conjurations (even illusory conjurations).

Spells like tongues, charm person, haste, detect thoughts, resistance, read magic, bestow curse and remove curse...

other spells, such as invisibility you'd have to use discretion on. It's not flashy if no one sees you to begin with, but it is flashy if you just blink out of existence.


The goal is to make it reasonable to believe you are anything *other* than a sorcerer. Bluff comes in handy here.