Efreet?

[barna10]

Anyone ever played the Efreet from Savage Species up level 19 for the free (no XP or GP cost) Wishes?

[Kelb_Panthera]

You know an efreet can't grant himself wishes, right?

[Acanous]

won't really matter in a party of 2+, but no, haven't played it.

[Arcanist]

You know an efreet can't grant himself wishes, right?

The Savage Species Efreet Class does allow an Efreet to use Wish 3/day and does not prevent the Efreet from granting his own Wishes... At least I'm not seeing anything in the class listing that says they cannot do this... It doesn't even say it in the fluff... :smalleek:

I mean I'd rule that you CAN'T, but from my read through of it nothing prevents you from doing this...

[barna10]

The Savage Species Efreet Class does allow an Efreet to use Wish 3/day and does not prevent the Efreet from granting his own Wishes... At least I'm not seeing anything in the class listing that says they cannot do this... It doesn't even say it in the fluff... :smalleek:

I mean I'd rule that you CAN'T, but from my read through of it nothing prevents you from doing this...

Exactly, no restrictions. Besides, you could grant someone else's wish when he/she wished you no longer had that restriction. OR grants someone's wish that he could have your power for 10 minutes and then he wished away the restriction. Either way, Savage Species list no such restriction.

[Psyren]

Despite being free of charge, it still has all the other restrictions of wish, such as being subject to DM screw if you overstep your bounds. Mind you, there's a lot of cool and perfectly legal stuff you CAN do, but there's a lot of ways this could go wrong as well.

[barna10]

Despite being free of charge, it still has all the other restrictions of wish, such as being subject to DM screw if you overstep your bounds. Mind you, there's a lot of cool and perfectly legal stuff you CAN do, but there's a lot of ways this could go wrong as well.

For sure. I just like the capability of having just about any spell ready or being able to create lesser magic items as needed.

[Alleran]

For sure. I just like the capability of having just about any spell ready or being able to create lesser magic items as needed.
Lesser? You can create any magic item you want. Since you're using a SLA rather than a spell, there's no experience cost. Technically, this means that it doesn't matter how high the XP cost would be, because the SLA function revokes that completely.

[ahenobarbi]

You know an efreet can't grant himself wishes, right?

But it can grant them to their suggested/dominated/mind raped/... minion.

[MrLemon]

As a DM, I'd let you...

Then I'd introduce the Planar Binding subplot (multiple times), where you just stand around in summoning circles until you grant some guy his wishes :smallbiggrin:

[ahenobarbi]

As a DM, I'd let you...

Then I'd introduce the Planar Binding subplot (multiple times), where you just stand around in summoning circles until you grant some guy his wishes :smallbiggrin:

Couldn't you wish for AMF and just walk away?

[Runestar]

You have to suck for 18 lvs to qualify for it. Just not worth it, IMO. :smallfrown:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lesser? You can create any magic item you want. Since you're using a SLA rather than a spell, there's no experience cost. Technically, this means that it doesn't matter how high the XP cost would be, because the SLA function revokes that completely.

While this is technically true, I see one of two things happening;

Either the DM reinstates the xp cost for wish SLA's or caps the cost at the standard wish's 5k experience

OR

He goes with the no XP thing and bans all custom items, period.

The ability to create limitless custom items is too powerful for even the very cheesiest of games. Might as well just declare "I win" upon hitting level 19 if that's on the table.

[rweird]

I haven't done that (I haven't played in a 19th level game yet)

You can get wish at will easier than that (with more cheese though), and in a level 19 game, having 10 HD really would cramp my style (and survival, both HP wise, save wise, attack wise, and the low HD means that a equal level character could take me out of the fight with a blasphemy/word of chaos/dictum/holy word depending on my alignment), in that sort of game, a wizard or sorcerer could get all the wishes they want. That build would have few options, and would really be a 1 trick pony.

[Arcanist]

While this is technically true, I see one of two things happening;

Either the DM reinstates the xp cost for wish SLA's or caps the cost at the standard wish's 5k experience

OR

He goes with the no XP thing and bans all custom items, period.

The ability to create limitless custom items is too powerful for even the very cheesiest of games. Might as well just declare "I win" upon hitting level 19 if that's on the table.

I am all for curb stomping nice things when the get to uppity, but punishing your players for getting an awesome capstone seems a little... dickish really... I mean if you went through 19 levels of Efreet (with only 10 HD to show for it might I add) you kind of deserve a hug and free wishes... The third option of course being that s/he just lets it all fly, but that is if it is REALLY high-OP.

Regardless this class feature deserves as much regulation as any wish really :smallsigh:

[ahenobarbi]

I haven't done that (I haven't played in a 19th level game yet)

You can get wish at will easier than that (with more cheese though), and in a level 19 game, having 10 HD really would cramp my style (and survival, both HP wise, save wise, attack wise, and the low HD means that a equal level character could take me out of the fight with a blasphemy/word of chaos/dictum/holy word depending on my alignment), in that sort of game, a wizard or sorcerer could get all the wishes they want. That build would have few options, and would really be a 1 trick pony.

Yeah, infinite wishes cost mere 8400gp (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Candle_of_Invocation).

[rweird]

Yeah, infinite wishes cost mere 8400gp (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Candle_of_Invocation).

I mean a character that can get wish at will, summoning infinite Efreet is just asking for trouble, though having wish at will can be troublesome itself, hostile entities granting the wishes will mean they'll be even more twisted.

[nedz]

It might be interesting as one side of a Gestalt ?

That said a player with that many wishes is going to get careless.

[barna10]

Geeze, for all this whining, I might as well just play a Dweomerkeeper and be done with it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Yeah, infinite wishes cost mere 8400gp (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Candle_of_Invocation).
That's a laughably bad idea. Trying to use the candle of invocation like that -will- end poorly. I'd almost guarantee it.

Also, D&D wiki; ewwww......

Geeze, for all this whining, I might as well just play a Dweomerkeeper and be done with it.

Don't post an idea if you're not prepared to hear critisizms. Compared to the rest of the internet, the folks around here a downright cordial.

[rweird]

Geeze, for all this whining, I might as well just play a Dweomerkeeper and be done with it.

It pretty much is that the playground is an optimization board, and playing as an Efreet is sub-optimal, thus we mention the other things that could do better. A wizard 17 can shape change into a Zodar for wish (effectively) at will. Most of the people that would play something like that aren't on this board, or haven't read this thread.

[nedz]

It pretty much is that the playground is an optimization board, and playing as an Efreet is sub-optimal, thus we mention the other things that could do better. A wizard 17 can shape change into a Zodar for wish (effectively) at will. Most of the people that would play something like that aren't on this board, or haven't read this thread.

To be fair he wasn't asking for optimisation advice, just whether anyone had played one.

[rweird]

To be fair he wasn't asking for optimisation advice, just whether anyone had played one.

I know, though considering this is an optimization board, peoples answer to unoptimized builds in general is "no I haven't played one because it is a weak choice."

[nedz]

I know, though considering this is an optimization board, peoples answer to unoptimized builds in general is "no I haven't played one because it is a weak choice."

I took the same view — and I suspect that this thread would have had no responses otherwise. :smallamused:

[Arcanist]

That's a laughably bad idea. Trying to use the candle of invocation like that -will- end poorly. I'd almost guarantee it.

Why the hell would anyone use the Candle of Invocation to make infinite wishes without a contingency plan? :smallconfused: Just make safe wishes (Inherit bonuses, replicated casting, free item creation). Wishing for stupid things that would completely curb stomp the entire campaign.

"I wish the BBEG was dead!"
"He is now dead-"
"Yay!"
"-and has become the Undead. Congratulations, now find his Phylactery"
"I wish I had his Phylactery!"
"You now have his Phylactery. It is in your bag of holding-"
"Yay!"
"It is a Sphere of Annihilation"

[nedz]

Why the hell would anyone use the Candle of Invocation to make infinite wishes without a contingency plan? :smallconfused: Just make safe wishes (Inherit bonuses, replicated casting, free item creation). Wishing for stupid things that would completely curb stomp the entire campaign.


All wishes have to be phrased. Given an infinite number of wishes a screw up is guaranteed, eventually. Basically people mis-speak occasionally.

[Arcanist]

All wishes have to be phrased. Given an infinite number of wishes a screw up is guaranteed, eventually. Basically people mis-speak occasionally.

nibble if you want
I'd rather this didn't turn into a "Corrupt this wish" thread :smallsigh: ... BUT! I do love those kinds of threads...


I wish that my intelligence score would increase by 1

I'm sure the DM in the sky would ask me to phrase that as a D&D character would so...


I wish I were twice as intelligent as I currently am at [insert time, date, year, month, second and fraction of second].

This is why I hate wish silliness... and yet I love it so much... Given enough time and thinking a Wish can be flawless... My favorite wish is wishing that Wish X never occurred (See Episodes 501 (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/Finn_the_Human_(episode)) (105) and 502 (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/Jake_the_Dog_(episode)) (106) of "Adventure Time")

[rweird]

All wishes have to be phrased. Given an infinite number of wishes a screw up is guaranteed, eventually. Basically people mis-speak occasionally.

Not in D&D, you just say "I make each Efreeti create a candle of invocation LE with each of their three wishes, and light each on to summon another Efreeti to do the same thing." I'd consider it a rather lame DM fiat for the DM to say "you misspeak and you cause something horrible to happen." instead of doing something more creative or you running out of Efreeti to summon/summon the same Efreeti as you already made make the candles so it grants no more wishes.

You'll still end up doing something horrible or the DM will just be like "no, don't do that." if the DM is sane or creative, if the DM isn't, then you'll just do whatever you want, though misspeaking isn't the way I'd think it'd happen.

[nedz]

Wish
...
Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
...


You actually have to say what you want.
This has nothing to do with DM fiat, well other than it's a wish.

[Urpriest]

You actually have to say what you want.
This has nothing to do with DM fiat, well other than it's a wish.

Yes, but your character says whatever you want them to, absent weird optional rules modules like the eyestrain rules for whatever that one magical-gunslinger class was.

Regardless, there are easier ways to get this even without any particular cheese. Ur-Priest to steal an Efreet's wish ability for example.

[nedz]

Yes, but your character says whatever you want them to, absent weird optional rules modules like the eyestrain rules for whatever that one magical-gunslinger class was.

Yes of course, but if you say that they say something stupid, then the character says something stupid.


Regardless, there are easier ways to get this even without any particular cheese. Ur-Priest to steal an Efreet's wish ability for example.

Or Spellthief even.

[Roland St. Jude]

I know, though considering this is an optimization board...While that is one of the things that happens here, this is not inherently "an optimization board."

[nyjastul69]

Efreet is the plural. Efreeti is the singular. Sorry for the nit pick, but it's been wearing on me.

[Starbuck_II]

You actually have to say what you want.
This has nothing to do with DM fiat, well other than it's a wish.

Wait, what if you cast Silent metamagic Wish... do you still need to speak it?

[nedz]

Wait, what if you cast Silent metamagic Wish... do you still need to speak it?

The spell fails, or rather it's a null wish. The spell description states that
By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.

[Arcanist]

The spell fails, or rather it's a null wish. The spell description states that

So does that mean that if a character with Ignore Material Components cast Clone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/clone.htm) it fails because...


To create the duplicate, you must have a piece of flesh (not hair, nails, scales, or the like) with a volume of at least 1 cubic inch that was taken from the original creature’s living body.

Because he lacks a laboratory for the creature to inhabit and any flesh to duplicate? :smallconfused:

[nedz]

Ignore Material Components does not obviate the need for a Focus, but I guess you don't need the 1,000 gp nor technically the Piece of Flesh.

The problem with casting Clone, without the Piece of Flesh, is what exactly are you cloning ? Fresh Air ?

It's a bit like casting Magic Missile at The Darkness.

[Arcanist]

Ignore Material Components does not obviate the need for a Focus, but I guess you don't need the 1,000 gp nor technically the Piece of Flesh.

You can have a restorative liquid (supplies) without having any beakers and test tubes (Equipment) :smallconfused:


The problem with casting Clone, without the Piece of Flesh, is what exactly are you cloning? Fresh Flesh Air?

It's called spontaneous creation. It's magic. It doesn't have to explain jack or diddly :smalltongue:


It's a bit like casting Magic Missile at The Darkness.

... I'm not exactly seeing how it is... I mean by your logic anything that allows a caster to bypass the need for material components is worthless :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nevermind trying to actually phrase a wish to an outsider without making some verbal misstep and getting your wish twisted in the worst possible way the creature can think of; all he's got to do is hem and haw for two minutes, making you elaborate a little more here or clarify there, and you go past the "automatically does what you direct" into the "contractual negotiations" phase of a calling gate. At that point, he doesn't have to give you jack via wish.

I said this in another thread and it was positted that the 20 round duration is a game construct that the creature wouldn't know about. The counter to this argument is simple; one or another god of magic -will- know about this limitation of the spell and the item as part of their portfolio. They will inform their celestial or fiendish servants about these limitations to protect their own interests. In no time at all, the limitations of the spell have circled the great wheel, and every outsider worthy of being called via gate already knows how to get around it for the truly obnoxious callers. Choosing not to fight on behalf of the candle's user is automatically out, since it would be nigh-impossible to feign ignorance of the user's wishes but just about anything else will be negotiable and, more importantly, almost certainly will have to be negotiated.

Any plan that relies on calling an outsider is opening yourself up to DM trickery. Either be prepared to cut a reasonable deal or be prepared for the consequences.

[Arcanist]

Nevermind trying to actually phrase a wish to an outsider without making some verbal misstep and getting your wish twisted in the worst possible way the creature can think of; all he's got to do is hem and haw for two minutes, making you elaborate a little more here or clarify there, and you go past the "automatically does what you direct" into the "contractual negotiations" phase of a calling gate. At that point, he doesn't have to give you jack via wish.

I said this in another thread and it was positted that the 20 round duration is a game construct that the creature wouldn't know about. The counter to this argument is simple; one or another god of magic -will- know about this limitation of the spell and the item as part of their portfolio. They will inform their celestial or fiendish servants about these limitations to protect their own interests. In no time at all, the limitations of the spell have circled the great wheel, and every outsider worthy of being called via gate already knows how to get around it for the truly obnoxious callers. Choosing not to fight on behalf of the candle's user is automatically out, since it would be nigh-impossible to feign ignorance of the user's wishes but just about anything else will be negotiable and, more importantly, almost certainly will have to be negotiated.

Any plan that relies on calling an outsider is opening yourself up to DM trickery. Either be prepared to cut a reasonable deal or be prepared for the consequences.

But you're assuming that the caster is playing fair (a rather bad and often suicidal assumption...)

Assuming that we are using a Wizard with an intelligence score of 18 (which for a real world conversion in my opinion would be to multiply the result by 10 since the average I.Q. is 100 and the average intelligence score is 10). The Wizard is already planning at such a level that no matter what the called creature is doing it is completely S.O.L the moment a person of such cosmic intelligence actually gets their grips around them.

I prefer to deal with outsiders, by carrying an incredibly large stick while negotiating, be that in the form of Banishing the creature, Dismissing, Binding, or simply killing them on their home plane. Either way i enjoy to have an ace in the hole that literally screws the entire creature over if it tries to fiddle out of kneeling to me and accepting me as it's Master.

When you are planar binding you have to have something that will crush the creatures will, otherwise it might get wise and try and fight back. We (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) can't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) have (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm).

Personally I prefer using the Spellcraft to buff up my caster level to a total of 38 (DC 110 Spellcraft. MoF) so that the creature is denied it's saving throw against your Binding spell. When it pops into the binding trap tell it what you want or show him/her what it's like to be a ship in a bottle for all eternity. I recommend that you tell it to fail the next save that it is allowed. Cast Mind Rape. Congratulations. You now have an eternal slave who will do whatever you want. whenever you want. I recommend that you send it on a quest forever travel the plane building orphanages and slaying all evil creatures (except itself).

The problem with Outsiders is that they believe that they actually have a purpose in the universe when in actuality they are forever slaves. Either to a God, an Idea, a Cause or a Person. No matter how they choose to live they are being forced to fight for something... Never knowing true freedom, an Efreet will only exist for a nongenie to stumble upon it and make a Wish.

[nedz]

... I'm not exactly seeing how it is... I mean by your logic anything that allows a caster to bypass the need for material components is worthless :smalltongue:

Stawman.

What I am referring to are null processes.

For example.
Get hold of a calculator and enter any number you like, 1234 say.
Now enter "+0=". The calculator will perform this operation, but the result will be unchanged.

Wish specifically takes what you say and changes reality accordingly (subject to the listed caveats obviously). If you cast Wish and say nothing (for whatever reason) then you get exactly what you asked for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

But you're assuming that the caster is playing fair (a rather bad and often suicidal assumption...)

Assuming that we are using a Wizard with an intelligence score of 18 (which for a real world conversion in my opinion would be to multiply the result by 10 since the average I.Q. is 100 and the average intelligence score is 10). The Wizard is already planning at such a level that no matter what the called creature is doing it is completely S.O.L the moment a person of such cosmic intelligence actually gets their grips around them.

I prefer to deal with outsiders, by carrying an incredibly large stick while negotiating, be that in the form of Banishing the creature, Dismissing, Binding, or simply killing them on their home plane. Either way i enjoy to have an ace in the hole that literally screws the entire creature over if it tries to fiddle out of kneeling to me and accepting me as it's Master.

When you are planar binding you have to have something that will crush the creatures will, otherwise it might get wise and try and fight back. We (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) can't (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/genie.htm#efreeti) have (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfFiend.htm) that (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfCelestial.htm).

Personally I prefer using the Spellcraft to buff up my caster level to a total of 38 (DC 110 Spellcraft. MoF) so that the creature is denied it's saving throw against your Binding spell. When it pops into the binding trap tell it what you want or show him/her what it's like to be a ship in a bottle for all eternity. I recommend that you tell it to fail the next save that it is allowed. Cast Mind Rape. Congratulations. You now have an eternal slave who will do whatever you want. whenever you want. I recommend that you send it on a quest forever travel the plane building orphanages and slaying all evil creatures (except itself).

The problem with Outsiders is that they believe that they actually have a purpose in the universe when in actuality they are forever slaves. Either to a God, an Idea, a Cause or a Person. No matter how they choose to live they are being forced to fight for something... Never knowing true freedom, an Efreet will only exist for a nongenie to stumble upon it and make a Wish.

And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.

[Arcanist]

And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

Actually, most Outsiders are kind of apathetic towards each other. I'm curious where most people are getting the idea that if a few of them go missing someone will suddenly pop out of nowhere and say "You killed my Father! I must avenge him!" Besides. You are mostly taking Evil Outsiders for the use of their Wish ability. Nothing says I can't just send him/her back (still brainwashed) after I'm done and have them come back to me when their abilities are all fresh and useful again :smalltongue: If I want a reliable summon that I can use on the fly I'd just cast Gate and cut the middle man.

Regardless. This is all DM's fiat. Hell, if you wanted to go into that realm you matter as well say that Ao pops down from his cosmic recliner and goes nuclear trying to free a bunch of Outsiders.


Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

Candles of Invocations, if used improperly (i.e. recklessly summoning Efreeti to grant your wishes without any forethought) is suicidal. Outsiders might be slaves, but they are slaves with an intelligence score (a bad thing in my opinion). I recall in The Haunted Lands trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration binding hundreds of thousands of Demons to his will and he wasn't torn a part by Demons or Efreeti or Fiends. No, he was killed by another Wizard (Szass Tam to be more specific) so just because you planar bind a couple (or more) outsiders does not mean you are automatically going to get curbstomped by the first Outsider who tries to pull Scry-&-Die tactics.


Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.

fix'd :smalltongue:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, most Outsiders are kind of apathetic towards each other. I'm curious where most people are getting the idea that if a few of them go missing someone will suddenly pop out of nowhere and say "You killed my Father! I must avenge him!" Besides. You are mostly taking Evil Outsiders for the use of their Wish ability. Nothing says I can't just send him/her back (still brainwashed) after I'm done and have them come back to me when their abilities are all fresh and useful again :smalltongue: If I want a reliable summon that I can use on the fly I'd just cast Gate and cut the middle man.

Regardless. This is all DM's fiat. Hell, if you wanted to go into that realm you matter as well say that Ao pops down from his cosmic recliner and goes nuclear trying to free a bunch of Outsiders.



Candles of Invocations, if used improperly (i.e. recklessly summoning Efreeti to grant your wishes without any forethought) is suicidal. Outsiders might be slaves, but they are slaves with an intelligence score (a bad thing in my opinion). I recall in The Haunted Lands trilogy, the Zulkir of Conjuration binding hundreds of thousands of Demons to his will and he wasn't torn a part by Demons or Efreeti or Fiends. No, he was killed by another Wizard (Szass Tam to be more specific) so just because you planar bind a couple (or more) outsiders does not mean you are automatically going to get curbstomped by the first Outsider who tries to pull Scry-&-Die tactics.



fix'd :smalltongue:

Bold statement is a bold assumption. Apathy for one another's well being amongst the neutral and evil outsiders, sure. But apathy for their well being is not apathy for their entire being. Planar politics (I hear that's a real big thing amongst lawful types) demands you keep tabs on your enemies.

If people in your neighborhood start disappearing, you ask why. You may be glad they're gone, but not finding out why, especially given that summoning and calling magic exist, is just foolhardy. You could be next! And not just by random chance, suppose your enemy gave his kidnapper your name in an effort to take you with him! Surely you must find and eliminate this threat to your machinations.

Then of course there are the creature's political allies. They aren't friends by any stretch, but if their plans demand interaction between their organizations (I'm thinking Efreet trading cartels mostly) then you nabbing the boss or one of his lieutenants can cause a serious disruption, making you a threat that needs to be eliminated.

This of course assumes, that you weren't foolhardy enough to call an outsider that isn't prevented from using his wishes on his own behalf. If an angel wishes or miracles himself out of your binding setup, you've got a serious problem. Same goes for a glabrezu.

Yes, trying to abuse anything is asking for a smack with a DMG, but trying to abuse calling spells to break the game doubly does so and doesn't require a "because I said no" from the DM, since there're perfectly logical reasons that it's a terrible idea.

Of course, using anything less than gate can get you an automatic no regardless of your willingness and ability to torture the creature to get what you want. The entire planar binding line has a clause that says a called outsider always refuses an unreasonable request. Granting your wish with no guarantee of being allowed to leave safely and be left alone is giving up his one bargaining chip for nothing, an unreasonable request by almost anyone's definition; and if you mindrape him into believing you're his friend, it's still unreasonable to grant you a wish without getting something (even just a small token sacrifice on your part) in return, especially when you're asking an evil creature, and even when you're asking a (now) good creature as someone who's clearly evil.

[barna10]

All of this is why you don't get greedy with wishes. What better use for all those useless magic items from 5-10 levels ago than to offer them to the Efreet as a gift!

Now, I've played with many DMs that like to screw with players, regardless of what they wish for. I was once in a game (something like 20 years ago) where a guy wished he had a pet dog. The DM (being a jerk as usual) turned the high level fighter into a little girl now holding a pet dog. Needless to say, the game didn't last long.

I've never been such a jerk. If the wish is reasonable (ie within the guidelines presented in the book), I allow it every time with no tricks. If the players want to get creative, I get creative, but I also consider the character that is wishing, not just the player. If the character is a 25th level Wizard with a 20+ IQ, I forgive some misspeaking on the players part. Like was stated earlier, the character is smarter than the character could ever hope to be and should be given credit and a pass on some stupid mistakes.

This doesn't mean I give a complete pass on bad wishes, just that I mitigate the bad effects. For instance, I wouldn't lock the PC in a box for all eternity for wishing he was immortal. I would immortalize him by having a great artist paint a picture of him, have a bard write an epic song about him, or give him the option to turn into an undead, but I would not screw him over completely.

The same goes for stupid characters. I once had a player write a short thesis explaining the ins, outs, and clauses of his wish to become a vampire without any of the weaknesses of a vampire. The player was rather smart, but the character was of average intelligence. I said a big no to that one (since it was completely out of character and outside the characters abilities to word such a wish) and allowed him to be a vamp for a day.

[mattie_p]

And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.

^^^ This.

Once a plane decides to abuse candle of invocations and wish/gate loops, you can assume that the wish economy will develop the the point that no mortals will be able to squeeze a binding/gate in. I believe others on this forum have addressed this.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not saying that wish is a bad spell, or that it should always be twisted.

I'm just saying that you should be careful what you wish for and who you ask to grant it.

If I was ever to try binding an outsider for a wish, I'd hire a kolyarut to draw up a contract for us and wouldn't bother with the binding circle. I'd call up the appropriate outsider (a noble djinn if I can get the name of one) and have a sit-down and negotiation. The kolyarut witnesses and files the contract, that way if either of us breaks our end, the forces of mechanus will be up the oath-breaker's butt for as long as it takes to mete out the agreed upon consequences.

If one of my players casts the spell for himself on a safe-list wish there's obviously no problem, since he just spent 5K or more XP to get what he wanted.

[Arcanist]

Bold statement is a bold assumption. Apathy for one another's well being amongst the neutral and evil outsiders, sure. But apathy for their well being is not apathy for their entire being. Planar politics (I hear that's a real big thing amongst lawful types) demands you keep tabs on your enemies.

I'm fairly confident that if a Duke of Hell was randomly snatched by a Summoner, nobody would really care that much. Asmodeus would view it as the Duke being to weak and his subordinates would all fight over who becomes top dog. In Hell, whoever is top dog gets to make the rules.


If people in your neighborhood start disappearing, you ask why. You may be glad they're gone, but not finding out why, especially given that summoning and calling magic exist, is just foolhardy. You could be next! And not just by random chance, suppose your enemy gave his kidnapper your name in an effort to take you with him! Surely you must find and eliminate this threat to your machinations.

Calling and Summoning is just like the Spanish Inquisition. Nobody ever expects it. Seriously, you're still playing with Rockets on this matter? Literally all it takes is keeping an eye on the summoner to make sure he isn't plotting to take you (or anything important to you) next. Not that hard.


Then of course there are the creature's political allies. They aren't friends by any stretch, but if their plans demand interaction between their organizations (I'm thinking Efreet trading cartels mostly) then you nabbing the boss or one of his lieutenants can cause a serious disruption, making you a threat that needs to be eliminated.

Evil outsiders are Evil! When the big fish vanishes nobody asks questions. They just try to jump in and fill the vacuum as much as they could.


This of course assumes, that you weren't foolhardy enough to call an outsider that isn't prevented from using his wishes on his own behalf. If an angel wishes or miracles himself out of your binding setup, you've got a serious problem. Same goes for a glabrezu.

The Binding triggers the moment the creature pops into your binding (Metamorphosis) it can't use any of it's abilities until it agrees to serve you. The Pact Primeval only applies to Devil's, not Summoners.


Yes, trying to abuse anything is asking for a smack with a DMG, but trying to abuse calling spells to break the game doubly does so and doesn't require a "because I said no" from the DM, since there're perfectly logical reasons that it's a terrible idea.

Yeah... Remember when Iggwilv imprisoned Graz'zt and his Demon homies Orcus and Demogorgon popped on down, curbstomped her and let him go? Me neither! Cmon, Kelb... Evil Outsiders don't really care about each other... If a few hundred thousand of them vanish out of nowhere, nobody is going to ask questions.


Of course, using anything less than gate can get you an automatic no regardless of your willingness and ability to torture the creature to get what you want. The entire planar binding line has a clause that says a called outsider always refuses an unreasonable request. Granting your wish with no guarantee of being allowed to leave safely and be left alone is giving up his one bargaining chip for nothing, an unreasonable request by almost anyone's definition; and if you mindrape him into believing you're his friend, it's still unreasonable to grant you a wish without getting something (even just a small token sacrifice on your part) in return, especially when you're asking an evil creature, and even when you're asking a (now) good creature as someone who's clearly evil.

I'm not even asking it to grant my Wish with Planar Binding. I asking it to simply fail the next saving throw it is required to make and I'll let him go. Their is no lie. No deception. No unreasonable request. Hell, while it is binded it can't even use any of it's abilities so how would it even go about granting the Wish if I really wanted to do that? I'm not mindraping him into thinking I'm his friend... That would imply we're equals in any way shape or form :smallconfused:

The Outsider has no leg to stand on in this argument. Either it does what you say or it is stuck in the bottle until you let it out, which might be never. At least with your offer it might get out of this alive.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Evil outsiders are evil, isn't an argument. It's barely a statement of fact since "always evil" in an alignment block doesn't actually mean 100% always evil, even amongst outsiders with the subtype.

Evil outsiders are smart (with few enough exceptions) and while they are generally back-stabbing dickweeds, they're not going to just outright ignore someone snatching people left and right.

If you snatch one of the archdukes, his subordinates -will- come looking, unless Asmodeus promotes someone else into his place, since their duke is responsible for disseminating the divine power drawn from the torture of petitioners. Whether Asmodeus simply promotes someone else or not, he may decide that your act of impertinence is worthy of your immediate removal from the mortal coil. Granted, he also might decide it's worthy of some kind of reward, but either way you've now garnered the attention of one of the darkest, most dangerous powers in the cosmos. Good luck with that.

Yes, binding chaotic outsiders is generally safer, as your example of the Iggwilv/Grazz't debacle shows. Honestly though, it seems to me that Grazz't didn't exactly get the rawest of deals there, and I don't believe his plans in the lower planes were put entirely to a stop either. Nevermind the sheer dumb luck Iggwilv had in the fact that Grazz't either had no subbordinates capable of tracking him down (which should've been mind-bogglingly simple) or they just consistently rolled poorly on the necessary checks for quite some time at the whim of the abyss.

Btw, how are you making a metamorphic binding as soon as the creature is called? Contingent spell? Also, what exactly stops the creature from lying to you about voluntarily allowing a spell to take hold? Remember, this creature has all of eternity to get you back and can bide his time if he needs to. Unless you're just as immortal, and never manage to screw up this plan ever, eventually you'll be gone and he can wait for some knucklehead adventurer to come looting in the ruins of your place to set him free.

[Arcanist]

Evil outsiders are evil, isn't an argument. It's barely a statement of fact since "always evil" in an alignment block doesn't actually mean 100% always evil, even amongst outsiders with the subtype.

So now you decide to abandon a fluff argument and go into a argument of "Always Lawful Evil" doesn't mean "Always Lawful Evil"? Really?


Evil outsiders are smart (with few enough exceptions) and while they are generally back-stabbing dickweeds, they're not going to just outright ignore someone snatching people left and right.

I never said they were ignoring you. I stated that they were going to keep an eye on you to make sure you're not doing anything to hassle them. Binding an Enemy actually helps them. Binding a subordinate can also be helpful as well in a Lawful Evil society (Scheming lessers and all that).


If you snatch one of the archdukes, his subordinates -will- come looking, unless Asmodeus promotes someone else into his place, since their duke is responsible for disseminating the divine power drawn from the torture of petitioners. Whether Asmodeus simply promotes someone else or not, he may decide that your act of impertinence is worthy of your immediate removal from the mortal coil. Granted, he also might decide it's worthy of some kind of reward, but either way you've now garnered the attention of one of the darkest, most dangerous powers in the cosmos. Good luck with that.

Nowhere in any source have I heard of a subordinate in a Lawful Evil society actively hunting down the guy that killed their boss. The general idea is that if you cut off the Head the Body dies. Asmodeus might be the King of Hell, but if you think he is going to actively baby sit you because you were to much of a wimp to defend yourself from a Summoner, you've definitely got another thing coming.


Yes, binding chaotic outsiders is generally safer, as your example of the Iggwilv/Grazz't debacle shows. Honestly though, it seems to me that Grazz't didn't exactly get the rawest of deals there, and I don't believe his plans in the lower planes were put entirely to a stop either. Nevermind the sheer dumb luck Iggwilv had in the fact that Grazz't either had no subbordinates capable of tracking him down (which should've been mind-bogglingly simple) or they just consistently rolled poorly on the necessary checks for quite some time at the whim of the abyss.

Or ya know, nobody really cared. Graz'zt was getting Jack and Diddly out of that deal until Iggwilv fell in love with him. The Cult of Graz'zt would have been, by your logic, knocking at her Doors with enough Demons to make a "Darkness that the World has never seen" from the BoVD.


, how are you making a metamorphic binding as soon as the creature is called? Contingent spell? Also, what exactly stops the creature from lying to you about voluntarily allowing a spell to take hold? Remember, this creature has all of eternity to get you back and can bide his time if he needs to. Unless you're just as immortal, and never manage to screw up this plan ever, eventually you'll be gone and he can wait for some knucklehead adventurer to come looting in the ruins of your place to set him free.

Lemme tell you my step > step plan.


Cast Planar Binding to find a Wish granting create that has already used it's wishes
Dimensional Anchor the area
Don't talk with the creature for 10 rounds (1 minute casting for Binding)
Prepare a bottle
Order it "Fail your next Will Save"


If it accepts proceed here


Cast Mind Rape on the subject telling to "Return here when you're Wish ability is useable again"
Wait X amount of time to have your wishes granted


If it refuses proceed here

Capture it in it's bottle
Place it (the bottle) in a bag of holding held by a mindraped minion with a Dagger with the orders "Ignore what is in the bag. If someone comes asking about Evil Outsiders, Fiends, Demons, or Efreeti, cut the side of the bag."
Ask it again the next day until it submits.


The bottles are set to be open either if the Caster dismisses the effect or if the Fiend sincerely submits to you're will. Which isn't even really necessary since nothing is preventing me from casting a spell at the subject until it fails its save. Since you enter the mind of the creature if it fails it's save you know when it'll fail :smalltongue:

[barna10]

Pretty sure those evil outsiders might care about others of their kind being summoned/imprisoned/killed, but not because the old boys' clud o' demons would avenge the fallen. No, they would look at the summoner as a new source of power to either be feared or eliminated, simple. Thinking anything else is way out of character for their ilk.

Now, the devils may do something about it, but only if you threatened a power with the ability to do something about it. Think about it, how often have we taken up arms against the aliens that have been snatching up humans?

Lastly, Efreet have plane hopping ability. They can come and go as they please. Why would their brethren automatically assume they disappeared via foul play?

[Arcanist]

Pretty sure those evil outsiders might care about others of their kind being summoned/imprisoned/killed, but not because the old boys' clud o' demons would avenge the fallen. No, they would look at the summoner as a new source of power to either be feared or eliminated, simple. Thinking anything else is way out of character for their ilk.

I prefer binding Demons anyway... Like you said. They fear power :smallsigh:


Now, the devils may do something about it, but only if you threatened a power with the ability to do something about it. Think about it, how often have we taken up arms against the aliens that have been snatching up humans?

I don't believe in Aliens... I believe in Evil Gods! but that is for another discussion :smallsigh:


Lastly, Efreet have plane hopping ability. They can come and go as they please. Why would their brethren automatically assume they disappeared via foul play?

Quite true and when your buddies have nearly phenomenal semi-cosmic powers who is going to think that they were kidnapped? :smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

So now you decide to abandon a fluff argument and go into a argument of "Always Lawful Evil" doesn't mean "Always Lawful Evil"? Really? No, I'm saying that "they're evil" isn't fluff. It's a blanket statement that means almost nothing on its own for being entirely too broad.




I never said they were ignoring you. I stated that they were going to keep an eye on you to make sure you're not doing anything to hassle them. Binding an Enemy actually helps them. Binding a subordinate can also be helpful as well in a Lawful Evil society (Scheming lessers and all that). Until you make the wrong move, then they try to kill you. Being on the radar for an entire society of vindictive immortals doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?




Nowhere in any source have I heard of a subordinate in a Lawful Evil society actively hunting down the guy that killed their boss. The general idea is that if you cut off the Head the Body dies. Asmodeus might be the King of Hell, but if you think he is going to actively baby sit you because you were to much of a wimp to defend yourself from a Summoner, you've definitely got another thing coming. Then you need to take a closer look at FC2. If your boss gets offed, yes you get a chance to advance, but if the duke gets snatched the flow of divine power is disrupted. Asmodeus can fix it by promoting a new duke but, being asmodeus, he might decide its time for a team-building excersize since the in-fighting is getting a bit out of hand in that layer. Your summoner now has an entire layer of hell on his butt. Congrats.

Even if big A does simply promote a new duke, his smiting you, or sending minions to smite you, isn't a matter of revenge for the fallen. Like you said, he couldn't care less about the schmuck you snatched. It's about sending a message to anyone else brazen enough to try the same. Mortals are already too big for their britches as it is. Knocking them down a peg by making an example is not only sensible, but fun. This particular sentiment trickles all the way down until you hit the lemure's who have no underlings to worry about and no minds to worry about them if they did.




Or ya know, nobody really cared. Graz'zt was getting Jack and Diddly out of that deal until Iggwilv fell in love with him. The Cult of Graz'zt would have been, by your logic, knocking at her Doors with enough Demons to make a "Darkness that the World has never seen" from the BoVD. I very much doubt I'm the only one that thinks Iggwilv's hanging onto him that long reeked of "by the power of plot," but it is -possible- that the cult of grazz't just couldn't get on the ball properly since its patron's direct underlings are freakin' demons. Intentional sabotage of any rescue efforts may have played a role. I did concede that demon binding was -relatively- safer.




Lemme tell you my step > step plan.

Cast Planar Binding to find a Wish granting create that has already used it's wishes And you ran into a problem at step one. Planar binding isn't a divination. You either have to know of an outsider, by name, that fits this criterion or you're taking a chance that the wish granter will break your circle before you have a chance to use binding on him.

Dimensional Anchor the area Standard fare, but doesn't necessarily stop a wish-based teleport. Remember that wish can move a creature "regardless of local conditions" which may or may not include dimensional lock/anchor at the DM's discretion.

Don't talk with the creature for 10 rounds (1 minute casting for Binding)
Prepare a bottle Binding allows both a save and spell-resistance. Good luck getting that to stick.

Order it "Fail your next Will Save" No thinking creature will agree to that without a reason, period. Nevermind you just kidnapped this guy.


If it accepts proceed here


Cast Mind Rape on the subject telling to "Return here when you're Wish ability is useable again"
Wait X amount of time to have your wishes granted

Not going to happen.

If it refuses proceed here

Capture it in it's bottle
Place it (the bottle) in a bag of holding held by a mindraped minion with a Dagger with the orders "Ignore what is in the bag. If someone comes asking about Evil Outsiders, Fiends, Demons, or Efreeti, cut the side of the bag."
Ask it again the next day until it submits.

Which has us down to "do it, or be banished to nowhere for all eternity." I don't see following through on that threat causing any problems.

The bottles are set to be open either if the Caster dismisses the effect or if the Fiend sincerely submits to you're will. Which isn't even really necessary since nothing is preventing me from casting a spell at the subject until it fails its save. Since you enter the mind of the creature if it fails it's save you know when it'll fail :smalltongue:

The longer you take to do this, and the more steps there are in it, the more likely it is to fail. Nevermind that both binding and mindrape both offer a save and allow for spell-resistance. The binding diagram only keeps it from breaking free of the circle by SR, it doesn't remove it from the creature altogether.

[TuggyNE]

What I am referring to are null processes.

For example.
Get hold of a calculator and enter any number you like, 1234 say.
Now enter "+0=". The calculator will perform this operation, but the result will be unchanged.

Wish specifically takes what you say and changes reality accordingly (subject to the listed caveats obviously). If you cast Wish and say nothing (for whatever reason) then you get exactly what you asked for.

You may be correct by RAW (though I am not entirely certain of this), but this makes little or no common sense, as there's no particular reason to suppose the sounds of someone speaking in Common, Sylvan, Giant (or whatever their native tongue is) is essential to the proper cosmic functioning of the spell. In point of fact, because wish lacks [language-dependent], it's highly unlikely that it does depend on that. Therefore, the spell merely interprets the intent of the user as appropriate; spoken words are not essential to that, especially if you consider telepathy.

Therefore, I'm inclined to write that line off as meaningless and over-specific fluff, rather than trying to take its bizarre implications into account.


If the wish is reasonable (ie within the guidelines presented in the book), I allow it every time with no tricks. If the players want to get creative, I get creative, but I also consider the character that is wishing, not just the player. If the character is a 25th level Wizard with a 20+ IQ, I forgive some misspeaking on the players part. Like was stated earlier, the character is smarter than the character could ever hope to be and should be given credit and a pass on some stupid mistakes.

This doesn't mean I give a complete pass on bad wishes, just that I mitigate the bad effects. For instance, I wouldn't lock the PC in a box for all eternity for wishing he was immortal. I would immortalize him by having a great artist paint a picture of him, have a bard write an epic song about him, or give him the option to turn into an undead, but I would not screw him over completely.

The same goes for stupid characters. I once had a player write a short thesis explaining the ins, outs, and clauses of his wish to become a vampire without any of the weaknesses of a vampire. The player was rather smart, but the character was of average intelligence. I said a big no to that one (since it was completely out of character and outside the characters abilities to word such a wish) and allowed him to be a vamp for a day.

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar, and all wish-granting DMs should consider your example.

[nedz]

You may be correct by RAW (though I am not entirely certain of this), but this makes little or no common sense, as there's no particular reason to suppose the sounds of someone speaking in Common, Sylvan, Giant (or whatever their native tongue is) is essential to the proper cosmic functioning of the spell. In point of fact, because wish lacks [language-dependent], it's highly unlikely that it does depend on that. Therefore, the spell merely interprets the intent of the user as appropriate; spoken words are not essential to that, especially if you consider telepathy.

Therefore, I'm inclined to write that line off as meaningless and over-specific fluff, rather than trying to take its bizarre implications into account.


The implications are really very pragmatic. All Wishes require DM adjudication, even if they turn out to one of the standard safe ones. Without some phrasing this isn't possible. IMHO Telepathy would be fine.

[TuggyNE]

The implications are really very pragmatic. All Wishes require DM adjudication, even if they turn out to one of the standard safe ones. Without some phrasing this isn't possible. IMHO Telepathy would be fine.

How does that preclude properly forming the desired wish, specific verbiage and all, in thoughts and then conveying that to the spell energy? Come on, I can't be the only one that can work out what to say in my head without having to move my lips.

(And, as far as I know, telepathy is not usable by default for verbal components, so by your argument it would fail by RAW, which is I think undesirable.)

[ahenobarbi]

And after you've tortured, abused, and killed a few dozen outsiders and the entirety of the outer spheres decides they want your head on a platter, then what?

Nevermind the candle of invocation idea usually being presented as a way to get these "infinite wishes" much earlier than any other option; I.E. before you have that big stick to make your threats with.

Trying to abuse anything out of outsiders is asking your DM to give you a swift kick in the character sheet.

But you don't need to abuse any outsiders :P Just use one of wishes to create an item of at-will wishes :smalltongue:

Or if you don't allow custom a ring of three wishes (which you use to get more rings o' three wishes)...

Also a scroll of mind rape to clean memory of the efreet if you're feeling paranoid.

[Arcanist]

No, I'm saying that "they're evil" isn't fluff. It's a blanket statement that means almost nothing on its own for being entirely too broad.

Ewkay.


Until you make the wrong move, then they try to kill you. Being on the radar for an entire society of vindictive immortals doesn't seem like a bad idea to you?

It's happened before in D&D. Devils don't attack in waves, they attack in a more subtle way. Instead of charging at you guns a blazing with every single Pit Fiend in creation, they will first send Cultist and a few lower ranking fiends and then slowly advance up that list until, by the power of plot you have Asmodeus looking down your shoulder. All of that order leaves plenty of time for THEM to make the wrong move. Misdirection > PaO one of the dead cultist into looking like you > Wish for a custom item of constant Mind Blank


Then you need to take a closer look at FC2. If your boss gets offed, yes you get a chance to advance, but if the duke gets snatched the flow of divine power is disrupted. Asmodeus can fix it by promoting a new duke but, being asmodeus, he might decide its time for a team-building excersize since the in-fighting is getting a bit out of hand in that layer. Your summoner now has an entire layer of hell on his butt. Congrats.

Pretty sure that isn't how it works... I'm not sure where you're getting that whole "Flow of divine power" stuff, but if you could, please direct me to a page :smallbiggrin:

Also, a MIGHT with a Devil isn't a sure fire 100% chance that he'll actually do it. He might just let the Layer burn for a few thousand years or a few weeks or until the Binder dies and the Duke is freed, but considering how long Wizards live, who knows when that will be? :smalltongue:


Even if big A does simply promote a new duke, his smiting you, or sending minions to smite you, isn't a matter of revenge for the fallen. Like you said, he couldn't care less about the schmuck you snatched. It's about sending a message to anyone else brazen enough to try the same. Mortals are already too big for their britches as it is. Knocking them down a peg by making an example is not only sensible, but fun. This particular sentiment trickles all the way down until you hit the lemure's who have no underlings to worry about and no minds to worry about them if they did.

And thus we return to the whole "Killing them on their own plane" thing. Wizards are cunning little monkeys and "big A", no matter how powerful he is, knows this. He's old enough to know that there are plenty of Wizards who have been powerful enough to actually Challenge him in terms of raw power or cunning, but let's not turn this into a Fanboy challenge between whoever V Asmodeus. Asmodeus, even in all of his "infinite" power does have a limit to what he can and can't do. He is not a Wizard, nor is he a God by any definition.


I very much doubt I'm the only one that thinks Iggwilv's hanging onto him that long reeked of "by the power of plot," but it is -possible- that the cult of grazz't just couldn't get on the ball properly since its patron's direct underlings are freakin' demons. Intentional sabotage of any rescue efforts may have played a role. I did concede that demon binding was -relatively- safer.

It's either the deus ex machina did it or "she picked the best target". I mean it can't be that she was just smart enough to get away with it, because it is illegal for a Wizard to actually act their intelligence score and not their shoe size :smallannoyed:


And you ran into a problem at step one. Planar binding isn't a divination. You either have to know of an outsider, by name, that fits this criterion or you're taking a chance that the wish granter will break your circle before you have a chance to use binding on him.

I shouldn't have assumed that you figured that I scryed into the guy that I wanted, but whatever. I'll add step 0 up in there.


Standard fare, but doesn't necessarily stop a wish-based teleport. Remember that wish can move a creature "regardless of local conditions" which may or may not include dimensional lock/anchor at the DM's discretion.

Which is of course in the realm of DM's fiat. On that note a Wish-based teleport is also in the realms of DM's fiat. "I wish I was in Baator", which layer? Oh! and enemies layer would be fine! "Greater teleport!" Nope! You need to have all of the papers to be their filled out in triplicate signed by your respective Duke and sent to Asmodeus himself at the Corporate office.

There is a point when Hell's Bueracracy stops making sense or being helpful, even to Devils.


Binding allows both a save and spell-resistance. Good luck getting that to stick.


The target gets an initial saving throw only if its Hit Dice equal at least one-half your caster level.

Arcane Mastery + Assay Spell Resistance + 20th lvl Caster = +40 to overcome a 32 SR. Can you say... "Overkill"? :smalltongue:


No thinking creature will agree to that without a reason, period. Nevermind you just kidnapped this guy.

Your reason is your life. Unless of course you are going to argue with me that if someone were to put a gun to your head you wouldn't do what they asked.


Which has us down to "do it, or be banished to nowhere for all eternity." I don't see following through on that threat causing any problems.

Neither do I :smallbiggrin:


The longer you take to do this, and the more steps there are in it, the more likely it is to fail. Nevermind that both binding and mindrape both offer a save and allow for spell-resistance. The binding diagram only keeps it from breaking free of the circle by SR, it doesn't remove it from the creature altogether.

Actually after the binding spell goes through the Fiend is S.O.L. because it is now trapped in a bottle until it submits. Regardless it is still trapped behind the obvious Magic Circle against Evil and Magic Circle against Law.


Not going to happen.

Which has been your entire stance on this matter leading me to believe that you aren't going to be convinced. So if you want to continue this discussion we can do it in another thread if you'd like :smallsmile:

EDIT: I will admit that this text


When you attack one demon, you attack a single creature. When you attack one devil, you attack them all.

Which makes me actually contemplate dropping the idea of binding fiends and just binding Efreeti. Much easier if you truly have to go the 9 trillion yards to pop a single Pit Fiend into a bottle. :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Ewkay.



It's happened before in D&D. Devils don't attack in waves, they attack in a more subtle way. Instead of charging at you guns a blazing with every single Pit Fiend in creation, they will first send Cultist and a few lower ranking fiends and then slowly advance up that list until, by the power of plot you have Asmodeus looking down your shoulder. All of that order leaves plenty of time for THEM to make the wrong move. Misdirection > PaO one of the dead cultist into looking like you > Wish for a custom item of constant Mind Blank You have a lifetime, they have eternity. Worse, such a systematic approach coupled with an "I am all-important" attitude (not to mention regularly casting a spell with both the law and evil descriptors), means you'll probably end up in baator when you die. They've got you either way.




Pretty sure that isn't how it works... I'm not sure where you're getting that whole "Flow of divine power" stuff, but if you could, please direct me to a page :smallbiggrin: Starting on page 7 of FC2 from the heading "The economy of hell." The next few pages describe in no small detail how the flow of divine power goes through the chain of command. Whether it's a literal flow of power or just a chain of ownership, it's still there.


Also, a MIGHT with a Devil isn't a sure fire 100% chance that he'll actually do it. He might just let the Layer burn for a few thousand years or a few weeks or until the Binder dies and the Duke is freed, but considering how long Wizards live, who knows when that will be? :smalltongue:
Bolded because it's all the more reason to arrange the wizard's untimely end if you're an underling of the creature that was called. If -someone- wasn't advanced into the boss' place, then any effort you put forward until either he's back or someone takes his place is moot since there's no superior to reward you for it. You never mess with anything in hell unless you're willing to spend the rest of eternity dealing with the consequences. Sure, you may get lucky a few times, but sooner or later your luck will run out. This is not an organization you want any part of.



And thus we return to the whole "Killing them on their own plane" thing. Wizards are cunning little monkeys and "big A", no matter how powerful he is, knows this. He's old enough to know that there are plenty of Wizards who have been powerful enough to actually Challenge him in terms of raw power or cunning, but let's not turn this into a Fanboy challenge between whoever V Asmodeus. Asmodeus, even in all of his "infinite" power does have a limit to what he can and can't do. He is not a Wizard, nor is he a God by any definition. Not a wizard, no. He explicitly is a 20th level cleric, in spell-casting ability though. You're right however, in that there's not much point an Asmodeus V Random Wizard 123 discussion.
The problem I have with this assertion is that the devils you're messing with are just as smart in many cases and they're many minds Vs your one. The odds are very decidedly against you.




It's either the deus ex machina did it or "she picked the best target". I mean it can't be that she was just smart enough to get away with it, because it is illegal for a Wizard to actually act their intelligence score and not their shoe size :smallannoyed: It could've been any number of things, really, but there's no denying that she was lucky. A simple legend lore spell directed at Grazz't would've gotten a minion the name of his kidnapper, followed by a legend lore on her should've given her last known location. Finding someone who's famous, or who's connected to someone famous is trivially easy in D&D. The fact that none of Grazz't's thousands (perhaps even millions) of followers couldn't find him is lucky at best, and reeks of deux ex machina at worst. Surely you can see this.




I shouldn't have assumed that you figured that I scryed into the guy that I wanted, but whatever. I'll add step 0 up in there. and add another step where you need more info and a bit of luck. Scrying sensors can be detected and you have to know something about the intended target for the actual scrying spell to function. Nevermind that any wish granting creature would have to be an utter fool not to ward himself and his home against scrying to prevent just this sort of thing.




Which is of course in the realm of DM's fiat. On that note a Wish-based teleport is also in the realms of DM's fiat. "I wish I was in Baator", which layer? Oh! and enemies layer would be fine! "Greater teleport!" Nope! You need to have all of the papers to be their filled out in triplicate signed by your respective Duke and sent to Asmodeus himself at the Corporate office. Fine then, he wishes up an AMF to negate your circle (he's targetting himself so he's not breaking the RAW for the binding trap) steps outside of it, and you've got a fight on your hands. If it can wish for itself, you'd be a fool to try this.



Arcane Mastery + Assay Spell Resistance + 20th lvl Caster = +40 to overcome a 32 SR. Can you say... "Overkill"? :smalltongue: Missed that bit, but see the above "wished up AMF" comment.




Your reason is your life. Unless of course you are going to argue with me that if someone were to put a gun to your head you wouldn't do what they asked. A life as your personal wish-bitch. Yeah, I'd say pull the trigger. Allowing the next will-save spell through could make the creature your personal slave virtually forever. No thinking creature will agree to it, even if they're accustomed to being someone's whipping boy. At least under that yolk he gets to make his own decisions, up to a point, or in the case of devils a chance for advancement.




Neither do I :smallbiggrin: Like I've been saying, you might get away with this for a while, but it -will- come back to bite you eventually.




Actually after the binding spell goes through the Fiend is S.O.L. because it is now trapped in a bottle until it submits. Regardless it is still trapped behind the obvious Magic Circle against Evil and Magic Circle against Law. You've still got to get that far. Sheer dumb luck can fry you in a number of places before you even get here. Btw, what are you binding that has fewer than 10HD and is granting your wishes? It's looking more and more like efreet are the only remotely viable option here.




Which has been your entire stance on this matter leading me to believe that you aren't going to be convinced. So if you want to continue this discussion we can do it in another thread if you'd like :smallsmile: That was my stance on the creature agreeing to allow a will-save spell through for nothing in return (simply continuing to live isn't something worthwhile in this instance). I'm perfectly willing to be convinced if you can present an argument that isn't so replete with problems. I very much doubt such an argument exists though.
I don't see a need to move this to another thread, barring a mod or the OP asking us to, since we're almost certainly getting back to efreet now.


EDIT: I will admit that this text



Which makes me actually contemplate dropping the idea of binding fiends and just binding Efreeti. Much easier if you truly have to go the 9 trillion yards to pop a single Pit Fiend into a bottle. :smallsigh:

That line is very much pertinent. The abyss is a place where demons live, Hell is an organized business. You don't mess with a devil's business.

[Arcanist]

You have a lifetime, they have eternity. Worse, such a systematic approach coupled with an "I am all-important" attitude (not to mention regularly casting a spell with both the law and evil descriptors), means you'll probably end up in baator when you die. They've got you either way.

Death is trivially easy to overcome in D&D. So much in fact that I actually don't recall any character in the Realm or Eberron (or any D&D type setting) dying plot simply stepping in and saying "Roll up a new character!".


Starting on page 7 of FC2 from the heading "The economy of hell." The next few pages describe in no small detail how the flow of divine power goes through the chain of command. Whether it's a literal flow of power or just a chain of ownership, it's still there.

My eyes are playing stupid right now so could you please list a page :smallredface:


because it's all the more reason to arrange the wizard's untimely end if you're an underling of the creature that was called. If -someone- wasn't advanced into the boss' place, then any effort you put forward until either he's back or someone takes his place is moot since there's no superior to reward you for it. You never mess with anything in hell unless you're willing to spend the rest of eternity dealing with the consequences. Sure, you may get lucky a few times, but sooner or later your luck will run out. This is not an organization you want any part of.

Alright lemme ask you a question: Say that you are Mephistopheles and someone has just permanently killed Asmodeus. Would you actively (and I mean put in some serious effort to the point where you probably start a few trillion eons of constant war) seek out the guy who offed him or would you move on and get to work on building your own organization? :smallconfused:


Not a wizard, no. He explicitly is a 20th level cleric, in spell-casting ability though. You're right however, in that there's not much point an Asmodeus V Random Wizard 123 discussion.

To be more fair it would be a Cleric V Wizard 123 discussion :smalltongue: Of course considering the fact the Wizard is immune to everything under the sun, this is generally considered moot.

A fight like that would pretty much be like the Lady of Pain Vs Ao.


The problem I have with this assertion is that the devils you're messing with are just as smart in many cases and they're many minds Vs your one. The odds are very decidedly against you.

Devil's have a level of self-importance that trumps Karsus easily. They are just as likely to fail (statistically more actually) then you are. Which explains why Heroes actually get away with the shenanigans that they pull periodically.

[QUOTE=Kelb_Panthera;14253036]It could've been any number of things, really, but there's no denying that she was lucky. A simple legend lore spell directed at Grazz't would've gotten a minion the name of his kidnapper, followed by a legend lore on her should've given her last known location. Finding someone who's famous, or who's connected to someone famous is trivially easy in D&D. The fact that none of Grazz't's thousands (perhaps even millions) of followers couldn't find him is lucky at best, and reeks of deux ex machina at worst. Surely you can see this.

Demon's aren't exactly famous for their intelligence. Perhaps not a Deux ex machina, but it does certainly reek of something hampering the Demons. Perhaps a conflicting on his Layers after his disappearance or simply fear of him kept them from looking for him.


and add another step where you need more info and a bit of luck. Scrying sensors can be detected and you have to know something about the intended target for the actual scrying spell to function. Nevermind that any wish granting creature would have to be an utter fool not to ward himself and his home against scrying to prevent just this sort of thing.

Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore on the target to learn more about it, Scry for it. All until you have the knowledge that you seek which is a simple question: "Can it use Wish now?". Moot really especially considering that a MM Efreet cannot use Wish for itself...


Fine then, he wishes up an AMF to negate your circle (he's targetting himself so he's not breaking the RAW for the binding trap) steps outside of it, and you've got a fight on your hands. If it can wish for itself, you'd be a fool to try this.

Missed that bit, but see the above "wished up AMF" comment.

FALSENESS! HE HAS ALREADY USED HIS WISH FOR VECNA KNOWS WHAT! :smalltongue:


A life as your personal wish-bitch. Yeah, I'd say pull the trigger. Allowing the next will-save spell through could make the creature your personal slave virtually forever. No thinking creature will agree to it, even if they're accustomed to being someone's whipping boy. At least under that yolk he gets to make his own decisions, up to a point, or in the case of devils a chance for advancement.

No offense, but this actually disturbed me a little bit after reading it...
Regardless! The creature does not know what spell I am going to cast immediately after agreeing to the spell. I could of course just set up some shenanigans to make him botch the save on anything short of a nat 20 (negative levels are a hell of a drug).


Like I've been saying, you might get away with this for a while, but it -will- come back to bite you eventually.

Statistically this is quite true. Just make sure you have enough Wishes to not screw up on the first time. Hell, on your first successful wish, wish for a magical item of unlimited wishes :smalltongue:


You've still got to get that far. Sheer dumb luck can fry you in a number of places before you even get here. Btw, what are you binding that has fewer than 10HD and is granting your wishes? It's looking more and more like efreet are the only remotely viable option here.

Actually it is incredibly easy to increase the characters caster level by 18 either through Spellcraft use (MoF) or Circle Magic or even magical items (Ioun Stones). Increase your caster level is child's play at 20th level. Efreeti are simply the easiest to do since you don't have to worry about retribution or anything.


That was my stance on the creature agreeing to allow a will-save spell through for nothing in return (simply continuing to live isn't something worthwhile in this instance). I'm perfectly willing to be convinced if you can present an argument that isn't so replete with problems. I very much doubt such an argument exists though.

That is what disturbed me. How little value you placed on the creatures life and if you were in that situation, your own life... :smallconfused:

Regardless this can be done without asking "nicely" through the use of negative levels, penalties, etc.


I don't see a need to move this to another thread, barring a mod or the OP asking us to, since we're almost certainly getting back to efreet now.

Quite right. I'd just rather not see either a person like you get banned. Excellent participant on this forum :smallsmile:


That line is very much pertinent. The abyss is a place where demons live, Hell is an organized business. You don't mess with a devil's business.

Quite right. NOW TO MOVE ON TO ENSLAVE THE EFREETI! :smallamused:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdemljv8sB1r4hwmoo1_500.gif

[Kelb_Panthera]

Death is trivially easy to overcome in D&D. So much in fact that I actually don't recall any character in the Realm or Eberron (or any D&D type setting) dying plot simply stepping in and saying "Roll up a new character!". Death is trivially easy to overcome when it's deliberate and you have someone to bring you back. If you don't achieve some form of immortality you stay dead "when your time is up." Then of course there're the myriad ways to get your soul trapped or destroyed.




My eyes are playing stupid right now so could you please list a page :smallredface: I'll do you one better.
Most lawful evil souls have been assessed as the property of a particular lord of hell even before their arrival in baator. [...interesting but irrelevant fluff...] pg 9: Torture stations are typically supervised by erinyes, who file regular reports [..] listing the top soul harvesters. These reports are essential to the promotion prospects of devils at work on the Material Plane. [....]While slowly peeling away every last iota of the petitioner's individuality, the process releases magical energy, which flows to the local lord as specified in the pact primeval. Power from souls harvested goes to the Lord
To qualify for advancement, a devil must win the approval of its direct supervisor. So having your boss struck down is a problem
Inside the devil's body cavitiy is [...] the ovatorium. [...] When a devil is promoted, a sac (from the ovatorium) corresponding to the new form swells with infernal energy until it reaches full size and bursts out through the ruined flesh of the old form. and the energy harvested goes back to the underling. So yeah, screwing with devils is -way- more trouble than any sensible mortal should ever undertake.




Alright lemme ask you a question: Say that you are Mephistopheles and someone has just permanently killed Asmodeus. Would you actively (and I mean put in some serious effort to the point where you probably start a few trillion eons of constant war) seek out the guy who offed him or would you move on and get to work on building your own organization? :smallconfused: Given how infernal politics works, I'd already have an organization. After I secured my position as the new ruler of hell, I would most certainly set to work to make an example of the mortal who was responsible. The whole cosmos needs to know that I'm better than the guy before me and that if you mess with a devil all of hell is your enemy. The last thing I need is some uppity eladrins or archons thinking I'm weak and trying to storm avernus to try and save a few wrongfully directed souls. (some souls do end up in hell by mistake.)




To be more fair it would be a Cleric V Wizard 123 discussion :smalltongue: Of course considering the fact the Wizard is immune to everything under the sun, this is generally considered moot. Same goes for cleric, this is pretty much an unwinnable fight, but not losing is a victory of sorts on this level of play.


A fight like that would pretty much be like the Lady of Pain Vs Ao. You mean there'd be a good chance of it destroying the cosmos as we know it? (Note the conspicuous absence of blue in that statement :smalltongue:)



Devil's have a level of self-importance that trumps Karsus easily. They are just as likely to fail (statistically more actually) then you are. Which explains why Heroes actually get away with the shenanigans that they pull periodically. Individually they may be more likely to fail, though that particular reason doesn't make it quantitatively proveable, but you have to keep rolling the dice. Sooner or later your luck runs out and theirs holds. Then you're lucky if you're just dead.




Demon's aren't exactly famous for their intelligence. Perhaps not a Deux ex machina, but it does certainly reek of something hampering the Demons. Perhaps a conflicting on his Layers after his disappearance or simply fear of him kept them from looking for him. Then we agree that it was an anomaly, and isn't a good example for this discussion.




Contact Other Plane, Legend Lore on the target to learn more about it, Scry for it. All until you have the knowledge that you seek which is a simple question: "Can it use Wish now?". Moot really especially considering that a MM Efreet cannot use Wish for itself... You have to start somewhere. You can't legend lore a creature with -nothing- to go on, except "an efreeti that can't currently grant a wish." At the very least you're talking about either building or engaging an existing information network just to reach the starting point of this process. Contact other plane is dangerous in its own right, and not entirely reliable. Using it is pushing your luck just a little bit more. If you have to go through all that trouble and possibly spend all that gold, wouldn't it be immensely more sensible just to try and find a scroll of wish?




FALSENESS! HE HAS ALREADY USED HIS WISH FOR VECNA KNOWS WHAT! :smalltongue: If you can find a creature that meets that criterion; an arduous task in its own right.




No offense, but this actually disturbed me a little bit after reading it...
Regardless! The creature does not know what spell I am going to cast immediately after agreeing to the spell. I could of course just set up some shenanigans to make him botch the save on anything short of a nat 20 (negative levels are a hell of a drug). Doesn't matter. Simply knowing that such a spell might make me your permanent slave forever and always will prevent the creature from agreeing until and unless you offer it -something- in return. Like an iron-clad guarantee that it's not one of those spells, for example.




Statistically this is quite true. Just make sure you have enough Wishes to not screw up on the first time. Hell, on your first successful wish, wish for a magical item of unlimited wishes :smalltongue: You and I both know that's not a kosher wish, regardless of RAW. Such a device would be a god in item form. Incidentally, a god of magic would strip you of the thing the moment it came into existence. Even the uncarring book, Boccob, wouldn't stand for such an item. (call it DM fiat if you will, but you know I'm right on this one.)




Actually it is incredibly easy to increase the characters caster level by 18 either through Spellcraft use (MoF) or Circle Magic or even magical items (Ioun Stones). Increase your caster level is child's play at 20th level. Efreeti are simply the easiest to do since you don't have to worry about retribution or anything. Efreet are members of a lawful-evil society based around mercantilism. They may not have their act together as well as the devils, but retribution will be an issue.



That is what disturbed me. How little value you placed on the creatures life and if you were in that situation, your own life... :smallconfused: I do place life at a somewhat lower value than some societies suggest I should, I admit. On the personal level, I very much put my freedom ahead of my life. I life in bondage is no life at all. I admit this may color my opinion on this specific point, just a little, but I really can't see a thinking creature willingly giving up any chance of freedom of choice until your wizard is dead or otherwise gone. Much less taking a chance that you're going to completely rewrite its entire mind.


Regardless this can be done without asking "nicely" through the use of negative levels, penalties, etc. Natural 20's are always a thing. As long as the dice are involved this is a losing game. The house always wins in the end, unless you walk away. Of course, you can't walk away once you're on this path. You're on the radar from your first try and even if it's succesful and everything goes smoothly, and you return the creature, mind freshly wiped, there's a chance your actions will come to light and vengeance heaped upon you.




Quite right. I'd just rather not see either a person like you get banned. Excellent participant on this forum :smallsmile: Thank you for the compliment good sir. I don't believe I'm in much danger of that though. I'm pretty good about not crossing the line, even if I do get adventurously close sometimes.

In this particular instance, our discussion seems more a logical progression of the discussion than a derail, IMO. I would, of course, stop immediately and take this to another thread if a mod or the OP suggested it. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun here.




Quite right. NOW TO MOVE ON TO ENSLAVE THE EFREETI! :smallamused: Definitely a safer choice than anything that can wish for itself, I'm still more than a little concerned about how many ways this can go wrong though.


http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mdemljv8sB1r4hwmoo1_500.gif

What the crap is that? :smallconfused:

[Arcanist]

Death is trivially easy to overcome when it's deliberate and you have someone to bring you back. If you don't achieve some form of immortality you stay dead "when your time is up." Then of course there're the myriad ways to get your soul trapped or destroyed.

Please tell me you're thinking of another source beyond the BoVD on the whole Soul Destruction thing :smallconfused:

Lichdom is a personal favorite when it comes to immortality really... But if we can get our hands on that spell that makes you immortal then we are crystal. Just try and take the item away from him (Wish would replicate a super charged Teleport Object which offers a Will save).


I'll do you one better. Power from souls harvested goes to the Lord So having your boss struck down is a problem and the energy harvested goes back to the underling. So yeah, screwing with devils is -way- more trouble than any sensible mortal should ever undertake.

Strong chain of command I see, but my question remains (and is answered in the next reply).


Given how infernal politics works, I'd already have an organization. After I secured my position as the new ruler of hell, I would most certainly set to work to make an example of the mortal who was responsible. The whole cosmos needs to know that I'm better than the guy before me and that if you mess with a devil all of hell is your enemy. The last thing I need is some uppity eladrins or archons thinking I'm weak and trying to storm avernus to try and save a few wrongfully directed souls. (some souls do end up in hell by mistake.)

Seems legit actually.


Same goes for cleric, this is pretty much an unwinnable fight, but not losing is a victory of sorts on this level of play.

See next point.


You mean there'd be a good chance of it destroying the cosmos as we know it? (Note the conspicuous absence of blue in that statement :smalltongue:)

Made me laugh sooooo hard :smalltongue:


Individually they may be more likely to fail, though that particular reason doesn't make it quantitatively proveable, but you have to keep rolling the dice. Sooner or later your luck runs out and theirs holds. Then you're lucky if you're just dead.

Which is why I said statistically. Regardless all the Wizard has to do is get one and s/he is set.


Then we agree that it was an anomaly, and isn't a good example for this discussion.

Not necessarily. It is a Cosmic being getting dicked by a Wizard with no repercussions, in fact benefiting from screwing with the entire cosmology.


You have to start somewhere. You can't legend lore a creature with -nothing- to go on, except "an efreeti that can't currently grant a wish." At the very least you're talking about either building or engaging an existing information network just to reach the starting point of this process. Contact other plane is dangerous in its own right, and not entirely reliable. Using it is pushing your luck just a little bit more. If you have to go through all that trouble and possibly spend all that gold, wouldn't it be immensely more sensible just to try and find a scroll of wish?

*Puts on Archyre* "Why in the hell should I be forced to lower myself to the status of a commoner, just to get something that I rightfully deserve?" *takes it off*

It literally cost less gold to find out that information and actually succeed through with the plan then it is to buy the scroll. Since none of the Archdevils are actually Gods, if you talk to anything beyond a Demideity they won't know diddly. :smalltongue:


Doesn't matter. Simply knowing that such a spell might make me your permanent slave forever and always will prevent the creature from agreeing until and unless you offer it -something- in return. Like an iron-clad guarantee that it's not one of those spells, for example.

Alright. I'll give you all my remaining WBL if you let me cast that one spell on you without you resisting. That good enough for you? :smalltongue:


You and I both know that's not a kosher wish, regardless of RAW. Such a device would be a god in item form. Incidentally, a god of magic would strip you of the thing the moment it came into existence. Even the uncarring book, Boccob, wouldn't stand for such an item. (call it DM fiat if you will, but you know I'm right on this one.)

Actually it would be kosher, because it is a magical item with a calculable price and not an Artifact. If Boccob wants one he can literally just Alter Reality to make one for free (Actually he can make a better one since he has Craft Artifact). Of course it is DM fiat, but it is pointless DM fiat, with no cause to it other than to dump on the players plan because "It doesn't fit in with my Campaign." It is childish and if your DM let you get on up to that point without stopping you they have no real right to complain since the plan is plainly obvious...


are members of a lawful-evil society based around mercantilism. They may not have their act together as well as the devils, but retribution will be an issue.

Efreeti are merchants (I do dream of playing a playing one with the Merchant Prince class...), however if one of them disappears no one will complain. Actually, I'm pretty sure some people will throw you a party... since their debts to that particular Efreet is gone now.


I do place life at a somewhat lower value than some societies suggest I should, I admit. On the personal level, I very much put my freedom ahead of my life. I life in bondage is no life at all. I admit this may color my opinion on this specific point, just a little, but I really can't see a thinking creature willingly giving up any chance of freedom of choice until your wizard is dead or otherwise gone. Much less taking a chance that you're going to completely rewrite its entire mind.

I see. I would like to discuss your stances on Murder and it's justification in a stress inducing environment (My Philosophy Prof is having a discussion on it in a week and he wants us to get our talking points together). :smallsmile:


Natural 20's are always a thing. As long as the dice are involved this is a losing game. The house always wins in the end, unless you walk away. Of course, you can't walk away once you're on this path. You're on the radar from your first try and even if it's successful and everything goes smoothly, and you return the creature, mind freshly wiped, there's a chance your actions will come to light and vengeance heaped upon you.

a 5% chance on a 1 time wish or the entire Multiverse loses? I'm liking these odds :smallamused:

My 2nd Wish can be "I wish nobody except me remembered that I ever casted a spell on X"


Thank you for the compliment good sir. I don't believe I'm in much danger of that though. I don't have any points, atm, and I'm pretty good about not crossing the line, even if I do get adventurously close sometimes.
In this particular instance, our discussion seems more a logical progression of the discussion than a derail, IMO. I would, of course, stop immediately and take this to another thread if a mod or the OP suggested it. I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun here.

Quite right. You are a gentlemen and a Scholar *smokes pipe*


Definitely a safer choice than anything that can wish for itself, I'm still more than a little concerned about how many ways this can go wrong though.

Think of it like a Monkey's Paw. You have to be very specific in the use of your Wish, otherwise you end up screwing over everyone.


What the crap is that? :smallconfused:

That is The Lich (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lich_(character)) from the show "Adventure Time". :smalltongue: A Personal favorite character from that show for the simply purpose of his use of his Universal Wish "The extinction of all life" (which was changed to Wishing that his wish was instead "Finn and Jake returned to Ooo", thus supposedly trapping him in Prismo's Time Room) :smalltongue:

[ahenobarbi]

Natural 20's are always a thing. As long as the dice are involved this is a losing game. The house always wins in the end, unless you walk away. Of course, you can't walk away once you're on this path. You're on the radar from your first try and even if it's succesful and everything goes smoothly, and you return the creature, mind freshly wiped, there's a chance your actions will come to light and vengeance heaped upon you.

Objection! You need only one wish for which you will not pay XP to gety infinite wishes. So you can walk away pretty quickly.

[barna10]

The whole Ol' Boys Club O' Hell idea has me peeing my pants. Good god man, play the damn game already!

The ONLY reason a dead bad guy's friends are going to come looking for a character is because the DM wants them too. seriously, you could extend this logic to ANY, I repeat ANY type of monster in D&D:

The PCs just killed a Dragon so all the Dragons team up to kill them to protect themselves.

The PCs just killed a Kobold in a back alley for his 1 CP he keeps in his sock so all the Kobold nations make the PCs enemy numero uno and set out with spears and torches to catch them.

Dude, sooner or later you need to play the damn game and stop thinking about ways to stop the PCs at every step. The PCs are supposed to be special and do special things. Sometimes they get to big for their britches and things need adjusted. Handling these times like a **** will only lose you friends.

Forget looking up references to support your DM jerk moves. Sit down and discuss how to work out the problem. Be as adult as possible.

A GREAT solution to a character that gets to be to powerful is to allow the PC to turn into a patron of some sort. Let the player use him for favors down the road. In short, stop trying squash fun in the favor of play balance. Fun is a real thing, play balance is a myth.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Please tell me you're thinking of another source beyond the BoVD on the whole Soul Destruction thing :smallconfused: BoVD is the primary source on the matter of souls outright destruction, but it's not the only one. More importantly, you've positted a means of forever trapping a soul in your own posts. Binding spell, plus broken bag of holding. Nevermind a number of creatures that explicitly consume a creature in a manner that doesn't allow a res; barghest to take an example from the SRD.


Lichdom is a personal favorite when it comes to immortality really... But if we can get our hands on that spell that makes you immortal then we are crystal. Just try and take the item away from him (Wish would replicate a super charged Teleport Object which offers a Will save).:smallconfused: I'm not familiar with that spell. I've always favored using that life-draining spell from BoVD on a hobo once a year; Steal Life, I think. Regardless, even being extremely difficult to perma-kill isn't being truly unkillable. It's definitely a good idea to make 'em work for it though.




Strong chain of command I see, but my question remains (and is answered in the next reply).



Seems legit actually. After reading FC2 for the first time, devils got my vote for the scariest category of creature in 3E. You do -not- mess with them unless you're prepared to deal with the consequences.




Which is why I said statistically. Regardless all the Wizard has to do is get one and s/he is set. That's not going to fly. One time gets a few wishes, period.




Not necessarily. It is a Cosmic being getting dicked by a Wizard with no repercussions, in fact benefiting from screwing with the entire cosmology. While we don't know what the exact reprecussions of her actions were, I'd be utterly shocked to find out that Iggwilv's actions didn't garner some kind of consequence.




*Puts on Archyre* "Why in the hell should I be forced to lower myself to the status of a commoner, just to get something that I rightfully deserve?" *takes it off*

It literally cost less gold to find out that information and actually succeed through with the plan then it is to buy the scroll. Since none of the Archdevils are actually Gods, if you talk to anything beyond a Demideity they won't know diddly. :smalltongue: You're losing me a little here. The exact cost of engaging such an information network is a nebulous figure that depends on who all is involved and how much they charge for those services. There's also the issue of your potential target finding out about your interest and making a first strike. It could very easily cost you more, financially, than just buying a scroll or three. Nevermind the scroll doesn't come with all the inherent risks of being a d-bag to a race of vindictive immortals.




Alright. I'll give you all my remaining WBL if you let me cast that one spell on you without you resisting. That good enough for you? :smalltongue:Gods no. I let your dominate through and you command me to give it all back. I've lost everything for nothing still. You want to get past my will save, you're going to have to either force your way past, or provide me with tangible proof that I'm not going to be your thrall for the rest of your life for letting it through.




Actually it would be kosher, because it is a magical item with a calculable price and not an Artifact. If Boccob wants one he can literally just Alter Reality to make one for free (Actually he can make a better one since he has Craft Artifact). Of course it is DM fiat, but it is pointless DM fiat, with no cause to it other than to dump on the players plan because "It doesn't fit in with my Campaign." It is childish and if your DM let you get on up to that point without stopping you they have no real right to complain since the plan is plainly obvious... For one, I'd think it was clear by now that I'd make a player really work just to get this far. I really don't see how preventing him from having an auto-win button is dirty pull.

Incidentally, thats' why such an item wouldn't be kosher in the eyes of a god of magic either. Here's an item that can nearly replicate the divine ability to alter reality in the hands of some berk with an attitude. Preventing the collapse entire civilizations, nevermind the rampant fighting over this item by every outsider that ever hears about it would be perfectly in-line with the desires of all but the gods of destruction and chaos, who would want the thing for themselves to sow exactly that kind of discord.

Btw, let's take a look at that "calculable price" 9X17X1800 for a command word activated 9th level spell is 275400. Then you get 5X5000 for the XP to gold conversion for 25000. Multiply that by 100, per the formula for XP costs on at-will items brings us to 525,400gp total. In-game, that would constitute more than 2/3 the WBL of a 20th level character. It should probably be more like 10X that since it's an epic item. This does not belong in a non-epic game, except perhaps as a plot device.

That's both in-game and metagame reasons for that item to either never exist or to be immediately removed. It's not a kosher wish.




Efreeti are merchants (I do dream of playing a playing one with the Merchant Prince class...), however if one of them disappears no one will complain. Actually, I'm pretty sure some people will throw you a party... since their debts to that particular Efreet is gone now. This isn't an either-or situation. Some will celebrate, to be sure, but some will wonder what happened, and some will have a problem with it and seek to put a stop to further depredations.




I see. I would like to discuss your stances on Murder and it's justification in a stress inducing environment (My Philosophy Prof is having a discussion on it in a week and he wants us to get our talking points together). :smallsmile: I'd be willing to discuss it via PM. My views on this matter probably wouldn't be a good idea to discuss in the open forum.




a 5% chance on a 1 time wish or the entire Multiverse loses? I'm liking these odds :smallamused: For the reasons I laid out above, I really don't see this working like that.


My 2nd Wish can be "I wish nobody except me remembered that I ever casted a spell on X"Because going off the safe-list is such a wonderful idea. There's no spell that exists (not even mindrape) that can accomplish that for wish to replicate. It's also well outside the bounds of the spell's other powers. What could possibly go wrong?



Think of it like a Monkey's Paw. You have to be very specific in the use of your Wish, otherwise you end up screwing over everyone. All the reason more to leave this bad idea alone. The monkey's paw is a cautionary tale you know.




That is The Lich (http://adventuretime.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lich_(character)) from the show "Adventure Time". :smalltongue: A Personal favorite character from that show for the simply purpose of his use of his Universal Wish "The extinction of all life" (which was changed to Wishing that his wish was instead "Finn and Jake returned to Ooo", thus supposedly trapping him in Prismo's Time Room) :smalltongue:
Not a show I care for. Might want to spoiler that comment for those that do enjoy it though.

The whole Ol' Boys Club O' Hell idea has me peeing my pants. Good god man, play the damn game already!

The ONLY reason a dead bad guy's friends are going to come looking for a character is because the DM wants them too. seriously, you could extend this logic to ANY, I repeat ANY type of monster in D&D:

The PCs just killed a Dragon so all the Dragons team up to kill them to protect themselves.

The PCs just killed a Kobold in a back alley for his 1 CP he keeps in his sock so all the Kobold nations make the PCs enemy numero uno and set out with spears and torches to catch them.

Dude, sooner or later you need to play the damn game and stop thinking about ways to stop the PCs at every step. The PCs are supposed to be special and do special things. Sometimes they get to big for their britches and things need adjusted. Handling these times like a **** will only lose you friends.

Forget looking up references to support your DM jerk moves. Sit down and discuss how to work out the problem. Be as adult as possible.

A GREAT solution to a character that gets to be to powerful is to allow the PC to turn into a patron of some sort. Let the player use him for favors down the road. In short, stop trying squash fun in the favor of play balance. Fun is a real thing, play balance is a myth.

That's just uncalled for.

When I DM, I don't try to curb-stomp the players at every turn, nor do I try to prevent all of their plans from working. I do, however, set certain limitations on what's permissable. Free, infinite wishes is on my black-list, but use of calling conjurations is not.

Having in-game justification for why this can, and likely will, go wrong is just part of creating a high-verisimilitude world.

I'd start citing economic principle if this were a discussion on infinite wealth, another of my black-list items.

In case anyone's interested, I only count actual, permanent and semi-permanent magical gear on the characters' persons against their WBL. If I counted all of their assests, including property, businesses, expendables, and pay-rolled minions, they'd exceed WBL by several fold.

[barna10]

That's just uncalled for.

When I DM, I don't try to curb-stomp the players at every turn, nor do I try to prevent all of their plans from working. I do, however, set certain limitations on what's permissable. Free, infinite wishes is on my black-list, but use of calling conjurations is not.

Having in-game justification for why this can, and likely will, go wrong is just part of creating a high-verisimilitude world.

I'd start citing economic principle if this were a discussion on infinite wealth, another of my black-list items.

In case anyone's interested, I only count actual, permanent and semi-permanent magical gear on the characters' persons against their WBL. If I counted all of their assests, including property, businesses, expendables, and pay-rolled minions, they'd exceed WBL by several fold.

It is not uncalled for. You are wasting resources (your brain) on crap that just shouldn't matter.

WBL? Seriously? Again, play the game! I can see worrying about this when making a character higher than first level, but after the game starts, who gives a crap! If you think they have too much stuff (please don't pull out a calculator!), have some thieves steal some stuff. Them trying to track them down to get their stuff back will make for high adventure!

I'm telling you, concentrate on role-playing and the story and forget about the numbers! This game can be so much more fun!

[Kelb_Panthera]

It is not uncalled for. You are wasting resources (your brain) on crap that just shouldn't matter.

WBL? Seriously? Again, play the game! I can see worrying about this when making a character higher than first level, but after the game starts, who gives a crap! If you think they have too much stuff (please don't pull out a calculator!), have some thieves steal some stuff. Them trying to track them down to get their stuff back will make for high adventure!

I'm telling you, concentrate on role-playing and the story and forget about the numbers! This game can be so much more fun!

Go go stormwind fallacy!

Just because working within the numbers doesn't sound entertaining to you doesn't mean me and mine don't enjoy the game the way we play it, and I resent the implication that I don't know how to roleplay when I've spent the last several pages discussing fluff material from an almost entirely in-game perspective.

Us disagreeing with each other is fine. Calling us asshats because our fun doesn't match yours is uncalled for.

Tangentially related note: how is it any of your concern if I waste my own resources (my brain, as you put it)? It's not hurting you.

If you don't like what's on, change the channel. Don't storm the studio and demand the director's head on a pike.

[barna10]

Go go stormwind fallacy!

Just because working within the numbers doesn't sound entertaining to you doesn't mean me and mine don't enjoy the game the way we play it, and I resent the implication that I don't know how to roleplay when I've spent the last several pages discussing fluff material from an almost entirely in-game perspective.

Us disagreeing with each other is fine. Calling us asshats because our fun doesn't match yours is uncalled for.

Never said you were asshats, but I think I will add that to my vocabulary.

Don't remember saying you don't know how to roleplay...

Don't recall ever hearing that stating my opinion somehow degrades you or the game you're playing, but if it affects you so much, maybe there is a problem.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Never said you were asshats, but I think I will add that to my vocabulary.

Don't remember saying you don't know how to roleplay...

Don't recall ever hearing that stating my opinion somehow degrades you or the game you're playing, but if it affects you so much, maybe there is a problem.

You didn't say it in so many words, but your post very strongly implied it. I seriously doubt that I'm the only one that could've read it that way.

Seriously. If your post wasn't supposed to be saying we're doing it wrong, what was it supposed to say?

I'm not particularly upset, just a tad perturbed by the implications.

I can say with a certain measure of certainty that neither I nor Arcanist was angrily sniping the other. We were having a rational discussion based on logic and the in-game fluff.

Even if you don't agree with what we're saying or why we're saying it, that doesn't change the fact that we were enjoying our lively debate. We may even have given some people some things to think about for their own games.

Given that the most common way for an efreeti to be seen in-game is as a result of the calling spells we're discussing, it's not even entirely off-topic. In fact, the danger of being the efreeti in this situation is a very solid reason -not- to play one. How much would it suck for some NPC wizard to call your PC efreeti via planar-binding and subject you to the things that Arcanist has described.

[barna10]

You didn't say it in so many words, but your post very strongly implied it. I seriously doubt that I'm the only one that could've read it that way.

Seriously. If your post wasn't supposed to be saying we're doing it wrong, what was it supposed to say?

I'm not particularly upset, just a tad perturbed by the implications.

I can say with a certain measure of certainty that neither I nor Arcanist was angrily sniping the other. We were having a rational discussion based on logic and the in-game fluff.

Even if you don't agree with what we're saying or why we're saying it, that doesn't change the fact that we were enjoying our lively debate. We may even have given some people some things to think about for their own games.

Given that the most common way for an efreeti to be seen in-game is as a result of the calling spells we're discussing, it's not even entirely off-topic. In fact, the danger of being the efreeti in this situation is a very solid reason -not- to play one. How much would it suck for some NPC wizard to call your PC efreeti via planar-binding and subject you to the things that Arcanist has described.

No, my posts didn't say it in any words; you very strongly read into it. Don't get your panties in a bunch, geeze. Play the game however you want. If you're having fun, great. What you've described is the way I used to play 20 years ago. It got boring and I moved on. That's all.

[Kelb_Panthera]

No, my posts didn't say it in any words; you very strongly read into it. Don't get your panties in a bunch, geeze. Play the game however you want. If you're having fun, great. What you've described is the way I used to play 20 years ago. It got boring and I moved on. That's all.

I'm sorry if I misread you, but when you quote someone and then explicitly use the word "you" in your response, it implies pretty heavily that you're directing your comment specifically at the person you've quoted.

If I did misread you, and you're not just back-pedalling as fast as you can, then you're own phrasing and post structure are why.

But let's just drop this before it gets out of hand. Happy gaming, Barna. :smallsmile: