Core only Bard

[Con_Brio1993]

I am currently in a relatively low-mid op campaign. Everyone is around level 3-4 and my Druid died so I now want to make a level 3 bard. The DM expects the campaign to get to level 8-10, and perhaps more if there is enough continued player interest.

The party composition right now varies. But we have: Fighter, Rouge/Cleric, Sorcerer (temporary Cleric due to ingame shenanigans), and a Monk. The Fighter is more Archer based it seems, so I was planning a more melee oriented bard.

For stats I rolled: 12/12/14/14/16/17.

I put the 16 in INT because I absolutely need skill points for role playing reasons.

Any suggestions for general feat chains, and which spells to select? The only spell I must take is Magic Mouth.

Any and all help appreciated.

[dascarletm]

I am currently in a relatively low-mid op campaign. Everyone is around level 3-4 and my Druid died so I now want to make a level 3 bard. The DM expects the campaign to get to level 8-10, and perhaps more if there is enough continued player interest.

The party composition right now varies. But we have: Fighter, Rouge/Cleric, Sorcerer (temporary Cleric due to ingame shenanigans), and a Monk. The Fighter is more Archer based it seems, so I was planning a more melee oriented bard.

For stats I rolled: 12/12/14/14/16/17.

I put the 16 in INT because I absolutely need skill points for role playing reasons.

Any suggestions for general feat chains, and which spells to select? The only spell I must take is Magic Mouth.

Any and all help appreciated.

I like the flair of a bard that duel wields a rapier and a whip. a trippy build mayhaps?

[Flickerdart]

Glibness and Irresistible Dance (once you can cast 6th level spells) are Bard staples.

[Con_Brio1993]

Glibness and Irresistible Dance (once you can cast 6th level spells) are Bard staples.

Oh for sure. Even with only a limited understanding of the game, those two spells just oozed awesomeness.


I like the flair of a bard that duel wields a rapier and a whip. a trippy build mayhaps?

Tripping would actually work fairly well. I just don't know how to go about that. What feats should I take and how should I organize my stats? I'm just afraid my stats are too low for that. I have very few +3s and no +4s.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with whip-tripping is that whips don't threaten, and attacks of opportunity are tripper bread and butter. If you want to trip in core, Barbarian with Spiked Chain is pretty much the only choice

[Gwendol]

You could go savage bard, perhaps looking at building a bard/paladin down the line? In any case you will want to grab grease, glitterdust, alter self (pick Tren when going into combat, or a form with alt movement for general utility), haste, etc.

[Rubik]

The problem with whip-tripping is that whips don't threaten, and attacks of opportunity are tripper bread and butter. If you want to trip in core, Barbarian with Spiked Chain is pretty much the only choiceExcept for barbarian and combination guisarme/spiked gauntlet (saves you a feat).

[nedz]

If being a skill monkey is important, there's always the Bardic Knack variant ?


Lose Bardic Knowledge
Make skill checks assuming, a minimum of, ½ Bard level ranks.

These do not apply for Feats or PrC Pre-requisites
You must have at least 1 real rank in a ‘Trained only’ skill to use it.

[mcv]

Do you really need extra skills as a Bard? You get quite a lot already. Is this 3.5? Because Versatile Performance in PF would save you a lot of skill points, but I don't think 3.5 has that.

For a melee Bard, I'd really put the 16 in Str (or Dex if you go the Finesse route, but you don't have to) and put a 14 in Int. That's still 8 skill points per level (9 if you're human). Is that not enough?

[Con_Brio1993]

If being a skill monkey is important, there's always the Bardic Knack variant ?


Lose Bardic Knowledge
Make skill checks assuming, a minimum of, ½ Bard level ranks.

These do not apply for Feats or PrC Pre-requisites
You must have at least 1 real rank in a ‘Trained only’ skill to use it.


Sadly Bardic Knack isn't in core. :(

The good news is my DM does not enforce class skills. All skills are open to everyone.


Do you really need extra skills as a Bard? You get quite a lot already. Is this 3.5? Because Versatile Performance in PF would save you a lot of skill points, but I don't think 3.5 has that.

For a melee Bard, I'd really put the 16 in Str (or Dex if you go the Finesse route, but you don't have to) and put a 14 in Int. That's still 8 skill points per level (9 if you're human). Is that not enough?

I simply want them for roleplaying reasons. My character needs to be at least mildly competent in several areas and the extra 1 skill point seems useful.

I also don't think I'll be particularly useful in combat with light armor, low AC, and poor HP.

[prufock]

I am currently in a relatively low-mid op campaign. Everyone is around level 3-4 and my Druid died so I now want to make a level 3 bard. The DM expects the campaign to get to level 8-10, and perhaps more if there is enough continued player interest.
...
For stats I rolled: 12/12/14/14/16/17.

Melee bard in core can be difficult, at least until you get access to Alter Self at level 4. At that point, you'll be changing into a Troglodyte for the natural attacks and +6 natural armor.

For your first few levels you are probably better off being a flanking buddy with the rogue, or hitting enemies with Grease. Animate Rope and Hideous Laughter are also goodies. If you go this route, 17 charisma is a must for saves and bonus spells.

However if you want to be more melee than spellcasting, I'd recommend putting that 17 in strength, 14 in both dex and con, and the 12s in wis and charisma. You could always switch str and dex around if you want more AC and the Weapon Finesse route. Saves won't matter so much because you'll be sticking with buffs, for the most part, and maybe some healing. Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, and maybe Unseen Servant or Silent Image are good choices for 1st level spells.

You will of course want Mithril armor as soon as you can afford it. Get a weapon that you can use 2-handed like a longspear or longsword.

[Con_Brio1993]

Melee bard in core can be difficult, at least until you get access to Alter Self at level 4. At that point, you'll be changing into a Troglodyte for the natural attacks and +6 natural armor.

For your first few levels you are probably better off being a flanking buddy with the rogue, or hitting enemies with Grease. Animate Rope and Hideous Laughter are also goodies. If you go this route, 17 charisma is a must for saves and bonus spells.

However if you want to be more melee than spellcasting, I'd recommend putting that 17 in strength, 14 in both dex and con, and the 12s in wis and charisma. You could always switch str and dex around if you want more AC and the Weapon Finesse route. Saves won't matter so much because you'll be sticking with buffs, for the most part, and maybe some healing. Expeditious Retreat, Cure Light Wounds, and maybe Unseen Servant or Silent Image are good choices for 1st level spells.

You will of course want Mithril armor as soon as you can afford it. Get a weapon that you can use 2-handed like a longspear or longsword.

I definitely want to be more spellcasting. We have a Fighter, Monk, and Rouge/Cleric, so we have some melee power already.

Animate rope seems not too great? Hideous Laughter is definitely something I will take, since it seems very much Save or Die.

Is there a guide on core-only targets for Alter Self and the bonuses they give?

I'm not set on being a melee bard. In fact, I'd rather not melee. I'm just confused as to what feats to take if I want to be more support oriented.

[nedz]

Is there a guide on core-only targets for Alter Self and the bonuses they give?

Here's one I prepared earlier

Alterself Core Humanoid Options
{table=head]Creature|Size|Move|Special
Bugbear|Medium|30 ft|+3 Natural Armour, +4 Move Silent
Dwarf|Medium|20 ft|Stability +4
Elf|Medium|30 ft|+2 Listen, Spot, Search
Half Elf|Medium|30 ft|+1 Listen, Spot, Search
Aquatic Elf|Medium|Swim 40 ft|Gills
Githyanki|Medium|30 ft|
Githzerai|Medium|30 ft|
Gnoll|Medium|30 ft|+1 Natural Armour
Gnome|Small|20 ft|+2 Listen
Halfling|Small|20 ft|+2 Climb, Jump, Move Silently, Listen, +1 thown
Hobgoblin|Medium|30 ft|+4 Move Silent, Alertness
Lizardfolk|Medium|30 ft|+5 Natural Armour, 2 claws (d4) bite (d4) +4 Balance, Jump, Swim, Hold Breath, Multiattack
Locathah|Medium|10 ft / swim 60 ft|
Merfolk|Medium|5 ft / swim 50 ft|Alertness
Orc|Medium|30 ft|Alertness
Troglodyte|Medium|30 ft|+6 Nat Armour, 2x claws (d4) bite (d4) +4 Hide (+8 underground), Multiattack, Stench {DC 13 Fort or nauseated for 10 rds, 30 ft}
[/table]

[Con_Brio1993]

Thanks Nedz. :)

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.

[Socratov]

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.
*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

[Con_Brio1993]

Well, you have inspire courage and a good charisma, so Leadership at level 6 is even more of a no-brainer than usual, if your DM didn't ban it (which he probably did).

Hideous Laughter and Suggestion are both early entry and good combat spells. Grease is also very helpful.

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

Not much for support feats in core.... If you gain access to flight magic, Flyby Attack is very handy... Other than that, Improved Initiative. If you don't want to melee, you could take the archery feats.

It's a shame your DM got rid of class skills; that's a MAJOR form of niche protection for bard and rogue. Not sure why you see it as a blessing, bard gets nearly all the good skills already anyway.

1. Yeah he banned Leadership instantly.

2. Well Suggestion is a class feature. I took Grease for now and will pick HLaughter up later.

3. Alright.

4. Archery feats seem stupidly costly. Like you need a ton of near useless feats for no reason. And with only 12 or 14 dex, seems like I wouldn't be hitting much anyway. I'm thinking of mostly avoiding combat entirely, or focusing on keeping myself safe in combat while buffing everyone else. Any recommended feats for a spoony bard?

5. Honestly, most people are picking skills their class would already have had. So it isn't too big a deal. I also never really liked the idea of class skills. I might have if they weren't so poorly done. Why are things like spot or listen class skills?


*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

I don't think those are in core :(

[nedz]

For Alter Self forms, Lizardfolk and Troglodyte are basically the best choices.

For combat this is usually true, but the other options can be useful.

[Gavinfoxx]

Let's see... Core Bard...

EWP: Spiked Chain, Extend Spell, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip...

Good spells are Grease, Silent Image, Sleep, Alter Self (Troglodyte!!), Glitterdust, Glibness, Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Evocation, etc.

Make sure to get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or two.

Use Perform Oratory or Perform Sing so you can continue to fight and keep your bardsong up.

You are a secondary battlefield control sorcerer and a secondary tripper, and an out of combat healer with a wand. You're also loremaster, and a solid socialite. Buy a bunch of scrolls of utility spells.

[Piggy Knowles]

*cough*ijatsu focus and gnomish quickrazor*cough*

*cough*neither of which are Core*cough*

In any case, as has been mentioned, melee bard tends to be tougher in Core, with fewer attack boosting options and poor survivability. You can make a troglodyte natural attacker work, I guess, but it's going to be only so-so.

My advice instead would be to play your melee in a more support-oriented fashion. Confuse, obfuscate, and outright lie and steal at every possible opportunity. Feel free to max out Sleight of Hand, and provide a flank for your rogue friend. While he's stabbing your enemy in the spleen, you can steal the enemy's spell component pouch, quiver of arrows, etc.

Carry a bunch of nets with you, by the way. Don't bother taking proficiency with the net - it's a touch attack to hit, and you'll be mostly aiming for the big targets, so you can suck up that -4 penalty (especially with your Inspire Courage boost). Hit someone with a net and watch as their mobility and defenses drop like a rock.

If you are fighting a lot of humanoid enemies, disarming and tripping can work as well. (If you fight a lot of monsters, both tactics become far less appealing - monsters will probably have better strength scores/size bonuses than you, and frequently don't carry weapons.) Combat Expertise/Improved Disarm/Improved Trip is all you really need for that, although Combat Reflexes is also nice, if you end up with a dex of 14 or higher.

For core bard spells, I'd recommend looking at...

1-
Grease. Reduce movement, force balance checks, use as an instant disarm - it's a nice little spell. Combines well with other things that mess around with movement, like tanglefoot bags and nets.

Silent Image. You can also get this in a wand if you want to save the spell slots, since the duration is based on concentration. However, with a little ingenuity (and a lot of bluff checks), this can be the single most versatile spell in the game.

Sleep. It's quite nice at low levels, but gets old quickly. If you take it, trade it out as soon as possible.

2-
Alter Self. Nedz already hit why this is so good. Primarily useful for a nice defensive form, but also good to pick up things like swim speeds, and for disguises.

Glitterdust. Blind enemies get a big miss chance against your party, and this blinds a bunch of enemies at once. You can trivialize otherwise tough encounters with this spell. Also reduces hiding/invisibility. Nice dual purpose spell.

Mirror Image. The best core defensive buff for its level for you. (Invisibility is something I find less useful as a core bard, since you'll be making lots of noise by your nature.)

Shatter. More useful if you face a lot of humanoid enemies, who have gear that can be shattered, but definitely a fun spell.

Silence. Sure, you generally don't want to be quiet, but cast this on your bruiser before he runs up to engage with the spellcaster. See how well they cast when they can't make noise.

Summon Swarm. Usually not great, particularly because of the concentration duration. But this is an ongoing damage/distraction effect, and can give you something to do with your rounds when you're low on spells. Sing, buff, and pop off a swarm, then maintain the song and the swarm for a few levels. Fades in usefulness pretty quickly, though - consider trading it out.

3-
Dispel Magic. The best debuff in the game, except for maybe the greater version. Also good for taking out magic traps, etc.

Fear. One of the best "save or lose" spells, and you get it earlier than most. In a cone, everyone not immune to fear either fails their save and is taken out of the fight for a while, or makes their save and is shaken (which gives a -2 to most checks). Very nice.

Glibness. You're playing a bard, you WANT this spell.

Haste. You're playing a bard, boosting the party is your bread and butter. Haste is even better than your bardic music in many ways, and they combine very well - extra attacks are great when you're adding damage to all of them.

4-
Freedom of Movement. Someone in your party needs this spell. If it's not you, make sure it's your cleric.

Modify Memory. I probably wouldn't take this as a spell known, but I'd definitely keep a scroll or two of this on hand at all times. This is a pretty unique effect, and you can have a LOT of fun with it.

Shadow Conjuration. What can you do with this? Set up a sleet storm to block off swaths of the terrain. Summon a phantom steed for fast travel. Summon a dretch who also gets some SLAs. Fire off a web to keep your foes from escaping. Trap a book with a sepia snake sigil and give it to your enemy. The point is, you've got options with this spell, and the bard NEEDS options.

5-
Greater Dispel Magic. See what I said about dispel magic, and make it... greater.

Shadow Evocation. OK, I mentioned Shadow Conjuration. Now what can you do with this one? How about making a shadow wall of ice or resilient sphere? Shadow gust of wind, perhaps, to disperse a swarm or a solid fog that's bugging you? Maybe a shadow daylight (how does that work?) to really piss off some drow?

Summon Monster V. Use this to pick up a hound archon, for scent/magic circle/aura of menace/spell-like abilities. Or maybe an earth elemental to abuse earth glide. Or an aicherai for the insanity cloud? Or just send a fiendish tiger to eat your enemies.

6-
Animate Objects. Try to prepare by bringing objects with you that are good choices for this spell. I used this on a small boat once, and it was amazing - its sails let it qualify for blinding and flight, its ropes gave it a constrict attack, etc.

Find the Path. Contact Other Plane gets all the hype for game-breaking divination spells, but for my money, nothing beats Find the Path.

Irresistable Dance. It's been mentioned, but it's worth mentioning again. Touch someone and completely remove them from the fight, no save. Best of all, they look really silly while you do it.

Project Image. Now you can be 300' away from the action and still perform like you're right there in the thick of it.

[Con_Brio1993]

Let's see... Core Bard...

EWP: Spiked Chain, Extend Spell, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip...

Good spells are Grease, Silent Image, Sleep, Alter Self (Troglodyte!!), Glitterdust, Glibness, Haste, Phantom Steed, Greater Invisibility, Shadow Evocation, etc.

Make sure to get a Wand of Cure Light Wounds or two.

Use Perform Oratory or Perform Sing so you can continue to fight and keep your bardsong up.

You are a secondary battlefield control sorcerer and a secondary tripper, and an out of combat healer with a wand. You're also loremaster, and a solid socialite. Buy a bunch of scrolls of utility spells.

Heh, in this case I'd be more primary tripper since I'd be the only one on the team doing it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to beg my DM if I can take some of the IC boosting feats, but if he says no I will go with this.

How important is strength with this build? I only have 12 or 14 strength. :(

[Gavinfoxx]

Heh, in this case I'd be more primary tripper since I'd be the only one on the team doing it.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'm going to beg my DM if I can take some of the IC boosting feats, but if he says no I will go with this.

How important is strength with this build? I only have 12 or 14 strength. :(

You'll need Cha, Strength, Con. Get a 14 strength, not a 12.

Max UMD. Get at least a few potions of Enlarge Person (the 50 gp version). Eventually consider a Wand of Enlarge Person. Consider that other list of useful spells too. As soon as you can reliably activate a L1 Wand, get a few utility wands.

Show the person or people who want to play melee this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

It's basically the only way to play tactically interesting melee in Core.

Get animals! Lots of animals to tank for you. Animals are often better tanks than Fighter and Paladin. Even 8 GP mules are solid (get a few).

Be sure to get Tumble.

Will you have access to SRD feats?

[Con_Brio1993]

You'll need Cha, Strength, Con. Get a 14 strength, not a 12.

Max UMD. Get at least a few potions of Enlarge Person (the 50 gp version). Eventually consider a Wand of Enlarge Person. Consider that other list of useful spells too. As soon as you can reliably activate a L1 Wand, get a few utility wands.

Show the person or people who want to play melee this post:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415

It's basically the only way to play tactically interesting melee in Core.

Get animals! Lots of animals to tank for you. Animals are often better tanks than Fighter and Paladin. Even 8 GP mules are solid (get a few).

Be sure to get Tumble.

Will you have access to SRD feats?

I dont know what you mean by SRD feats. As for that link, the game is designed for newer players. The DM hasn't thrown any really challenging enemies at us. Most of the actual challenge seems to be not pissing off stronger NPCs...

I doubt they'll need tripping or any optimization.

[Gavinfoxx]

System Resource Document, which has several options available for free online.

http://www.d20srd.org/

Many people consider "Core" to be: PHB + DMG + MM1 + SRD. Does your GM consider this Core?

As far as that link... the point of it is to give interesting tactical options, which is actually pretty useful for a starting character, because they have the option of doing more things than just "I move and attack" or "I stand there and full attack". Especially if they want to 'tank'.

Here, for example, is a PHB + SRD Horizon Tripper I wrote up: http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=55074

[Con_Brio1993]

System Resource Document, which has several options available for free online.

http://www.d20srd.org/

Many people consider "Core" to be: PHB + DMG + MM1 + SRD. Does your GM consider this Core?

Our DM considers core anything from that website, and I think the DMG.

Also the players seem to be having fun as is. I don't want to over-complicate things with tripping builds and other jazz.

[Gavinfoxx]

Our DM considers core anything from that website, and I think the DMG.

Also the players seem to be having fun as is. I don't want to over-complicate things with tripping builds and other jazz.

That changes things significantly! Your feats and skills and possible items and possible races just expanded, in a very large sense!

Bardic Sage and (especially) Savage Bard become options. You have access to the Extra Music, Hold the Line, Jack of All Trades, Knock-Down, Open Minded, Reckless Offense, Wild Talent, and Stand Still feats. You can take cross-class Autohypnosis ranks if you want. You have access to Traits and Flaws (take a Trait and two flaws)!

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are some generically useful equipment from the DMG & SRD, in general:


handy haversacks

cloak of resistance +2 (or higher!)

hand of the mage

hat of disguise

amulet of health, headband of intellect, cloak of charisma, gloves of dexterity, etc. etc

boots of landing, stomp, and elvenkind (combined item per dmg rules; per the errata, you multiply all but the most expensive part by 1.5)

gloves of object reading

skin of nimbleness (yay tumbling!)

third eye aware

ring of protection

(for the arcanists): mithral light shield +1 of light fortification and heartening with +1 defending parrying silver shield spikes

rod of lesser extend spell

medallion of thought projection (for Druids to be able to communicate when Wild Shaped)

mithral chain shirt +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

mithral breastplate +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

permanently ironwooded darkwood (treat as mithral but not as durable) breastplate +1 with +1 defending parrying ironwood armor spikes (for the Druids; not getting light fortification because saving up for 'wild')

+1 permanently ironwooded darkwood barding (for level 5 druid forms that aren't humanoid and thus can't wear human armor, like a Baboon can. Things like Crocodile, Deinonychus, or Leopard)

mithral full plate +1 of light fortification with +1 defending parrying silver armor spikes

+1 Psychokinetic Adamantine Greatsword

+1 Spell Storing Adamantine Guisarme

+1 Spell Storing Adamantine Spiked Chain

+1 Keen Adamantine Falchion

+1 Heartening Bashing Darkwood Heavy Shield with +1 Psychokinetic Adamantine Shield Spikes (This would be used two handed as a primary weapon, so as to get two handed weapon bonuses with shield bonuses. fighting two handed with a single spiked shield is a realistic, historic combat style, btw.)

+1 Animated Heavy Shield

Perhaps the best item in the entire DMG+SRD is the Psychoactive Skin of the Proteus.

Maybe a 1/Day or 2/day Wondrous Item of Alter Self, at Caster level 3 (Troglodyte or Lizardfolk are good combat forms...)

Also, Hippogriffs / Pegasi / Griffons / Etc!!

Prices of Magical Beasts with Flight per DMG:

Giant Eagle: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Giant Owl: 4000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Hippogriff: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training
Griffon: 7000 gp for young, +1500 for training
Pegasus: 3000 gp for young, +1000 for training

[Con_Brio1993]

That changes things significantly! Your feats and skills and possible items and possible races just expanded, in a very large sense!

Bardic Sage and (especially) Savage Bard become options. You have access to the Extra Music, Hold the Line, Jack of All Trades, Knock-Down, Open Minded, Reckless Offense, Wild Talent, and Stand Still feats. You can take cross-class Autohypnosis ranks if you want. You have access to Traits and Flaws (take a Trait and two flaws)!

Wait how does Savage Bard become an option? None of those feats seem to be on d20srd.

Also our DM isn't allowing traits or flaws sadly. :(

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait how does Savage Bard become an option? None of those feats seem to be on d20srd.

Also our DM isn't allowing traits or flaws sadly. :(

Savage Bard, Divine Bard (only use if you have a REALLY high point buy, like 40), and Bardic Sage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

As far as the feats?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#featDescriptions
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats

Look for 'General' feats. Those are the feats that anyone can take. Especially the feats I mentioned.

[Con_Brio1993]

Savage Bard, Divine Bard (only use if you have a REALLY high point buy, like 40), and Bardic Sage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm

As far as the feats?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#featDescriptions
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats

Look for 'General' feats. Those are the feats that anyone can take. Especially the feats I mentioned.

Looking at them, I can only see Extra Music as useful.

Jack of All trades isn't useful since our DM isn't doing class skills. And I sadly do not have the stats for a tripping build.

[StreamOfTheSky]

All of SRD also means the Spelltouched feats are available. Some can be decent, many are at least amusing.

[Gavinfoxx]

Your DM isn't doing class skills?

Well.

Get exactly 5 Ranks of Balance (so you aren't flat footed when balancing on your Grease).
Get at least 5 ranks of Concentration, preferably more.
Get exactly 1 rank of Decipher Script.
Get at least a Rank in Handle Animal.
Get exactly a Rank in Sleight of Hand.
Get at least a Rank in Open Lock and Disable Device.
Get at least 5 Ranks in Tumble.
Max Use Magic Device, maybe even Use Psionic Device.
Get several ranks in Autohypnosis.

Get at least a rank in every knowledge, including Psionics. Make sure to take several ranks in the monster-identifying knowledge skills: Arcana, Dungeoneering, Local, Nature, Religion, The Planes, Psionics. Take at least a rank in Heal, so you can plausibly say you know about anatomy of any monster ever. "I have studied anatomy of all types of monsters and people, I should know something about anything we see, even if I am just determining its scholarly classification by 'type', by looking at it." Get 5 ranks in Knowledge History to bump your Bardic Lore check.

Make sure your check on Knowledge Local is trained and +3 by the time you can cast Alter Self, so you know about Troglodytes and Lizardfolk with a Take 10. (13 int [for combat expertise] + 2 ranks = 13 on a Take 10).

Remember the minimum to know SOMETHING about a creature is a knowledge check of 10+ the hit dice of the creature. You can Take 10 on this check if you have the appropriate skill trained, and are not currently in combat.

And Knock Down is CRAZY useful.

With:

EWP: Spiked Chain
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Knock-Down

and some potions of enlarge person, you can do this:

1.) Attack enemy with spiked chain
2.) Deal over 10 damage, get a trip attempt
3.) As you trip them, get a free attack on them via improved trip
4.) When they try to stand up, they provoke an attack of opportunity, causing you to hit them...

Also, learn the Take 10 rules. You CAN use them if there is a risk of failure, even if the failure would cause your death (ie, a climb check to climb a cliff or something). The game does not assume you are trying 10 times when you Take 10; you are just choosing to have an average roll on a skill, in the same amount of time it would take you to normally roll. You can Take 10 any time you aren't distracted by combat stress, or something like high winds or a major thunderstorm. You can't Take 10 on Bardic Lore.

Get masterwork tools of every skill you consider remotely useful to you.

[Con_Brio1993]

I should note our DM also isn't doing the "you need at least 1 rank to use trained only skills or knowledge skills."

Also Psionics dont exist. He wont touch them.

Our DM also loathes take 10s. My one big complaint with him is that he seems to care more about the dice roll than the actual modifier. -_-

[Gavinfoxx]

I should note our DM also isn't doing the "you need at least 1 rank to use trained only skills or knowledge skills."

Also Psionics dont exist. He wont touch them.

Our DM also loathes take 10s. My one big complaint with him is that he seems to care more about the dice roll than the actual modifier. -_-

Then write down the actual modifiers for things, including the Take 10 rules with page references, and give it as a guide to everyone.

Google 'Chet Kindredcircle Skills' for some relevant bits. Approach the DM, out of game, while saying you are worrying about how he is handling skills, skill DC's, take 10, aid another, and skill modifiers. Ask him for a list of houserules regarding these things.

Don't tell him what number comes up on the dice. Tell him the total skill modifier you roll, or you get with Take 10.

Can you have autohypnosis without psionics? Notably, Stand Still is a GREAT feat for battlefield control if you don't have the total number of feats to go for combat expertise / improved trip / knock-down, and it is a general feat, that happens to be in the Psionic section. By itself, it has nothing to do with Psionics.

Can he have the psionic weaponry and armor and universal items be magic instead? That adds a significant amount of options to equipment, and there is precedent (that was how Magic Item Compendium did it).

[Con_Brio1993]

Can you have autohypnosis without psionics?

I doubt it. If the skill isn't auto listed on mythweavers, it probably wont be allowed by him.

edit: Probably nothing from psionics. Whether it be equipment, spells, or whatever.

[Gavinfoxx]

edited my post previous to yours, double check it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Stand Still is NOT a Psionic Feat. It just happens to be in the Psionic section. It has nothing to do with psionics, other than the fact that someone decided to print it originally in XPH, and it thus got into the psionics section of the SRD. It is NOT psionic. It's General, and it is a melee feat that a 2 int animal could take!

So what you are saying is that this ISN'T a Core+SRD game, then? And that there are significant houserules? :|

[Con_Brio1993]

Stand Still is NOT a Psionic Feat. It just happens to be in the Psionic section. It has nothing to do with psionics, other than the fact that someone decided to print it originally in XPH, and it thus got into the psionics section of the SRD. It is NOT psionic. It's General, and it is a melee feat that a 2 int animal could take!

So what you are saying is that this ISN'T a Core+SRD game, then? And that there are significant houserules? :|

He claims it to be core only, but I think he has a different definition of core. :smallfrown:

Well that's a rather sad thing to discover. I'll see if I can talk to my DM.

[Gavinfoxx]

I sent you a PM, did you get it?

[Con_Brio1993]

I sent you a PM, did you get it?

Yes. I'll talk to my DM.

I think the reason he doesnt care about the set DC for skills rule is because that makes Diplomacy basically mind control as a free action. So he just makes up his own DCs.

He also thinks the dice represents luck, and that luck can overcome skill. Which is why he cares so much about the dice roll. In our game a nat 20 on a skill roll is an automatic success no matter what. And a 1 an automatic failure... It's led to at least 1 character death.

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes. I'll talk to my DM.

I think the reason he doesnt care about the set DC for skills rule is because that makes Diplomacy basically mind control as a free action. So he just makes up his own DCs.

He also thinks the dice represents luck, and that luck can overcome skill. Which is why he cares so much about the dice roll. In our game a nat 20 on a skill roll is an automatic success no matter what. And a 1 an automatic failure... It's led to at least 1 character death.

"I jump to the moon". Try that several times. When you roll a 20, you will succeed. That's why a 20 is not an auto success on a skill, and a 1 is not an auto failure on a skill.

Also, his fumble rules?

"Take ten 1st level warriors, in melee with 10 straw dummies (medium inanimate objects, AC5).
The warriors make their 1 attack per round, for 2 minutes (20 rounds); the dummies make no attacks during this time. If, after 2 minutes of battering straw dummies, any of the warriors are dead or dying then the GM must butter his fumble rules and eat them."

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like your GM should have said, "I am running a game that uses a few D&D 3.5e rules to let me play out my power trip fantasies, with a huge amount of house rules, many arbitrary and for no other reason than to encourage chaos at the table and random death, and ignoring various rules at my whim. I am going to call this game Core Only, but that would totally be a lie. No, I won't tell you what rules those are, just make a character, and have a few backup characters, muahahahahah!"

[Con_Brio1993]

"I jump to the moon". Try that several times. When you roll a 20, you will succeed. That's why a 20 is not an auto success on a skill, and a 1 is not an auto failure on a skill.

Also, his fumble rules?

"Take ten 1st level warriors, in melee with 10 straw dummies (medium inanimate objects, AC5).
The warriors make their 1 attack per round, for 2 minutes (20 rounds); the dummies make no attacks during this time. If, after 2 minutes of battering straw dummies, any of the warriors are dead or dying then the GM must butter his fumble rules and eat them."

He'd DM veto the jump to the moon thing, but lying to the guard that you are the great great grandson of the BBEG even if you have 0 in bluff will work on a 20 most likely.

He actually takes a 1 in battle as an automatic miss most of the time. At worst its a dropped weapon, or something that takes 1 round to bounce back from. And planned combat is generally easy enough that it isn't ever a danger.

The worst thing is skill rolls. The commoner rolls a 20 on his bluff check to tell you to jumping in a volcano is fine? Welp you somehow believe him unless you roll a 20. (He doesnt seem to realize bluffs can suffer penalties for being outlandish.)

Trying to sneak around and roll a 1 despite having some obscene +14 modifier? Your roll of 15 is treated like a 0 and you end up alerting every guard.


It sounds like your GM should have said, "I am running a game that uses a few D&D 3.5e rules to let me play out my power trip fantasies, with a huge amount of house rules, many arbitrary and for no other reason than to encourage chaos at the table and random death, and ignoring various rules at my whim. I am going to call this game Core Only, but that would totally be a lie. No, I won't tell you what rules those are, just make a character, and have a few backup characters, muahahahahah!"

In his defense, only 2 characters have died. Everyone else has only gotten into really difficult situations due to dice fails. He tries to avoid death when possible.

[Gavinfoxx]

So you have pointed out the part of the PHB where it says, "Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure." and you've described why that is the case? To enable more predictability and reasonable competence at skills? Along with Take 10?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0 <-- also, that is a guide of ways to scout. Most of the stuff isn't relevant to a core only game, but the stuff on taking 10 IS relevant.

It sounds like his absurd skill rules is causing him to have to ad hoc ways to keep characters alive... which don't always work. He is causing himself trouble, with these absurdly chaotic and unrealistic and extremely unbalanced and ill-advised skill changes...

[Gavinfoxx]

http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2 Maybe read that, as well...

Also, is he rolling confirmation on fumbles and crits on skills, against an appropriate DC?

Another thread on skill fumbles and crits... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14018199

[Con_Brio1993]

So you have pointed out the part of the PHB where it says, "Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure." and you've described why that is the case? To enable more predictability and reasonable competence at skills? Along with Take 10?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11034.0 <-- also, that is a guide of ways to scout. Most of the stuff isn't relevant to a core only game, but the stuff on taking 10 IS relevant.

It sounds like his absurd skill rules is causing him to have to ad hoc ways to keep characters alive... which don't always work. He is causing himself trouble, with these absurdly chaotic and unrealistic and extremely unbalanced and ill-advised skill changes...

Yes I have explained that the game does not have crit success or failures on skill rolls. He said he was using a home-rule of crit success so that even the most crazy of plans could succeed with pure luck if we wanted to try them. The critical failure was thrown in to "balance" that.

I also realize how important taking 10 is. He hates it because it circumvents "luck." And is boring in his opinion.

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you ask him to consider adding confirmation rules on the critical successes and critical failures? For in combat and out? And it's boring for people to be realistically competent at things they are competent at, and would be able to do in real life?? That's what Taking 10 is about -- helping this aspect of the game in simulating real life scenarios, so people don't suck at doing things when not under stress... just like real life!

[Con_Brio1993]

Can you ask him to consider adding confirmation rules on the critical successes and critical failures? For in combat and out? And it's boring for people to be realistically competent at things they are competent at, and would be able to do in real life?? That's what Taking 10 is about -- helping this aspect of the game in simulating real life scenarios, so people don't suck at doing things when not under stress... just like real life!

I did ask him about confirmation, at least for in combat.

He said in combat he only makes you miss 90% of the time so he wasn't going to do confirmation rules.

I forgot to ask about skill checks. I imagine he and the other players will reject it, because they don't want to have to reroll successes. :smallannoyed:

[Gavinfoxx]

Well.... the success would be against, you know. The DC of success anyway. It would just be to switch a success to a fantastic success.

Did you read the calibrating your expectations thing?

Basically, it helps cement the idea that if you have a +8 or a +11 or (gasp) a +15 mod on something... you are insanely good at that thing, and the game is meant to let you succeed at that. That's why having a +11 higher on your hide and move silently check than an enemy's spot and listen check basically means, as long as you time your movement and stay in concealment and cover and they don't remove that cover or concealment, you pretty much won't be discovered while stealthing. This is an intentional part of the game! Skills are meant to be powerful, and high modifiers in skills is supposed to be a Really Big Deal!

[Con_Brio1993]

Well.... the success would be against, you know. The DC of success anyway. It would just be to switch a success to a fantastic success.

Did you read the calibrating your expectations thing?

Basically, it helps cement the idea that if you have a +8 or a +11 or (gasp) a +15 mod on something... you are insanely good at that thing, and the game is meant to let you succeed at that. That's why having a +11 higher on your hide and move silently check than an enemy's spot and listen check basically means, as long as you time your movement and stay in concealment and cover and they don't remove that cover or concealment, you pretty much won't be discovered while stealthing. This is an intentional part of the game! Skills are meant to be powerful, and high modifiers in skills is supposed to be a Really Big Deal!

Yes I realize this. I think he finds "invincibility" to be boring. "Whats the fun if you have no risk of being discovered?"

[Gavinfoxx]

Yes I realize this. I think he finds "invincibility" to be boring. "Whats the fun if you have no risk of being discovered?"

"There would be risk, of course. Just not from lack of skill or skill checks. Risk from removal of of cover or concealment, due to circumstance or enemy action. Risk from Scent and similar, if I get too close to an animal. Risk from Detect Magic, should someone have that up. Risk from a freak hailstorm making things more difficult. And I wouldn't be able to do it in combat -- it would have to be a scouting mission. And the point is, I invest a huge amount of character skills in being competent -- sometimes superhumanly competent-- at things. Why shouldn't I have a payback from that investment?? Otherwise there is no point at being good at any skill, ever! All you have to do is get to the point where you are 'okay'! Why are you giving a huge nerf to every class that gets 6 skill points a level or higher, or every intelligence-based class? The Wizard, after all, can just cast Silence and Invisibility and Levitate, and do everything I otherwise could do anyway! Or the Druid could change to a Hawk and not care if they get discovered as they fly over things! This is a game where certain characters are supposed to be invulnerable to anything lower level characters can do, or even anything an army of lower level characters can do. That's kinda the point of having levels with such a dramatic increase in overall competency!"

[Gavinfoxx]

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%201 %2031%2011.doc

Maybe you could read that as well? That's another way to help the GM -- and you -- calibrate your expectations (or at least those the system presents by its numbers) appropriately. Does he understand that level 7 and up characters are Superhero type Superhuman, and are really not supposed to be threatened at all by normal folk? Does he not get that Barbarians of sufficient level surviving falls at Terminal Velocity is a design feature of the game (not a bug!)?? After all, its only 20d6!

Also, I made a (non-core) level 9 Druid that should be able to solo any size armies of mundane people (of mostly npc classes, mostly Warriors with a few fighters, some Experts, some Adepts, some Aristocrats, maybe some Bards, maybe some Clerics) of levels 4 and under.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

A Core Druid could probably do this by level 12, and definitely by level 15.

[Con_Brio1993]

http://antioch.snow-fall.com/files/members/Endarire/DnD/Challenging%203.5%20and%20Pathfinder%20Parties%201 %2031%2011.doc

Maybe you could read that as well? That's another way to help the GM -- and you -- calibrate your expectations (or at least those the system presents by its numbers) appropriately. Does he understand that level 7 and up characters are Superhero type Superhuman, and are really not supposed to be threatened at all by normal folk? Does he not get that Barbarians of sufficient level surviving falls at Terminal Velocity is a design feature of the game (not a bug!)?? After all, its only 20d6!

Also, I made a (non-core) level 9 Druid that should be able to solo any size armies of mundane people (of mostly npc classes, mostly Warriors with a few fighters) of levels 4 and under.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=54924

A Core Druid could probably do this by level 12, and definitely by level 15.

Not sure if he understands that. We're all level 3-4 right now.

And actually, I think almost every NPC is basically leveled in some class. Every random guard outlevels us.

[Gavinfoxx]

Not sure if he understands that. We're all level 3-4 right now.

And actually, I think almost every NPC is basically leveled in some class. Every random guard outlevels us.

And now we get to another problem of his game. He doesn't understand that there are NPC classes for a reason... and that player characters are supposed to be exceptional?

In Core+SRD-Psionics, here are the relatively weak/un-versatile base classes:

Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat, Warrior, Fighter, Monk, Paladin (suitable for npc classes; they are somewhat simple and don't have many options)

Here are the relatively stronger/versatile/competent classes:

Adept, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Bard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard

Note that the 'actual' NPC classes are Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat, Adept, Warrior.

Here's a town generator that uses the DMG rules. Unfortunately, those posit an absurdly high amount of high level spellcasters (so his position is defensible, technically):

http://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_town.php

There are other, better ways to generate towns, of course...

I wrote something up here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14213474&postcount=6

That you could look at. The idea is to generally, assume that normal folk are under level 6 for the most part, with most folk being levels 1-3 and that 'heroic' classes are absurdly rare. Anyone who is level 7 is Superhuman, and should be treated as such.

Veterans of an army could be, say, Fighter2/warrior2. Town Guard could be Expert1/Warrior1, or Expert1/Warrior1/Fighter1 (cause you need spot and stuff to be a town guard, right?)

The King or a major General (perform oratory!) could be a Bard 5 or Aristocrat1/Bard5, perhaps. The Pope-equivalent is a Cloistered Cleric 8, perhaps.

[Con_Brio1993]

Yeah I'm not sure on all the NPC levels, but my level 3 Druid was trying to sneak into a castle and got swiftly dealt with by 2 royal guards. I was almost one-shotted to death, since they both dealt like 12 or so damage in a single attack.

They also had high enough reflex saves to get past my Entangle easily.

Yeah he doesn't understand how rare player classes are. Two other players fought a pimp that turned out to be a level 1 Monk.

[Gavinfoxx]

Does he know about the non-heroic arrays?

NPC's should probably have one of these arrays:

11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10
OR
13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8

or -very rarely-
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

Does he know that??

[prufock]

Animate rope seems not too great?
Entangled (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#entangled) is a good condition to impose on enemies. Animate Rope (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateRope.htm) is a save vs entagled. However, it's a bit more action-expensive than some other ways, so you'll need to get your monk buddy to throw it, but for a first level spell is not bad. Not as good as Grease, but has other uses besides combat.

[Con_Brio1993]

Does he know about the non-heroic arrays?

NPC's should probably have one of these arrays:

11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10
OR
13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8

or -very rarely-
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

Does he know that??

No I don't think so.

[Gavinfoxx]

It sounds like he hasn't actually read various important parts of the DMG and Mosnter Manual...