First Time Totemist, Long Time Rule Misinterpreter

[inexorabletruth]

Okay... this would normally fit into 3.5 by RAW thread, but I it's a multi-part question that may require some 'splainin' that I'm not sure would mesh well with the thread's format.

I need to make sure that I understand how a totemist works. I'm lvl 3, so you know... can't do much yet.

Still, I was under the impression that I know how to do all soulmelds that a Totemist can do, which are the soulmelds listed on MoI, pg. 58... except I can only bind to my totem chakra at this level.



You know and can shape any soulmeld from this list.

I only get three soulmelds per day, but I don't have to pick what those soulmelds are at the beginning of the day like other meldshapers do, correct?


A totemist does not study or prepare soulmelds in advance, but must have a good night's rest and must meditate for 1 hour to shape his soulmelds for the day.

I was under the impression that I could just toss around whatever soulmeld I need, kind of like how a bard can fling out whatever spells he knows, as long as I stay under my daily allotment of soulmelds and don't overextend my essentia and don't bind to a chakra I don't have access to. Is that correct?

[Psyren]

I only get three soulmelds per day, but I don't have to pick what those soulmelds are at the beginning of the day like other meldshapers do, correct?

No - the rules for shaping soulmelds on pg. 49 apply to all meldshapers equally, Totemists included.

Do note that if you don't plan on changing your soulmelds, you can leave the same ones on indefinitely if you want; they don't have a duration and stay on you even while you sleep.



I was under the impression that I could just toss around whatever soulmeld I need, kind of like how a bard can fling out whatever spells he knows, as long as I stay under my daily allotment of soulmelds and don't overextend my essentia and don't bind to a chakra I don't have access to. Is that correct?

Not sure what you mean by "toss around." You can shape any soulmeld on your list, yeah, but they're more like magic items than spells.

The abilities of the melds do function kind of like spells though - once a meld is shaped, the powers it gives you are generally usable at-will. You can obviously only use the abilities of soulmelds that you've shaped, and some abilities are closed off from you unless you've bound that meld to a chakra - the soulmeld descriptions will tell you what you can do with a given meld in its baseline state, and what can only be done with it once bound.

[inexorabletruth]

So... what does it mean that I don't prepare or study soulmelds in advance then? Is that a fluff thing, then?

I went ahead and read about the other Incarnum users and they all have that line that says they don't prepare or study soulmelds in advance, but instead meditate for an hour. Is it just a new word for an old concept?

And now what does that mean about how many soulmelds I can prepare? I can use three. Does that mean I can only prepare three?

And once they are prepared, does that mean they are... what's the right word... equipped? So I start the day off with all my soulmelds in place?

[Psyren]

So... what does it mean that I don't prepare or study soulmelds in advance then? Is that a fluff thing, then?

I went ahead and read about the other Incarnum users and they all have that line that says they don't prepare or study soulmelds in advance, but instead meditate for an hour. Is it just a new word for an old concept?

I understand this book can be confusing, so bear with me for a moment. That line simply means that you don't need to go out and "learn" your soulmelds, or read about them in some book, before you can shape them. You simply know all of them, just like a cleric knows every spell on the cleric list.

But there is still a selection process, which happens at the beginning of the day when you wake up. All three meldshapers direct you to page 49 - that's where the rules for shaping soulmelds are.


To shape a soulmeld, a meldshaper must have a clear mind, just like a wizard who wishes to prepare spells (see page 177 of the Player's Handbook). Achieving this clear mind requires 8 hours of sleep (or a like amount of restful calm, if the character does not sleep).

After resting, a meldshaper must meditate for 1 hour. During this time, he selects and shapes all his soulmelds for the day, simultaneously unshaping any current soulmelds that he does not choose to retain. Any soulmelds previously shaped that he chooses to retain do not need to be reshaped.

So, while you don't "prepare" your soulmelds in advance, per se, you still have to make all the choices about which ones to shape during that one-hour window. You know them all, but you can't leave some unshaped and then shape them during the day - you have to choose, in that period right after waking up, which ones to "put on."


A meldshaper must shape all his chosen soulmelds at the same time. He cannot leave a soul meld slot unfilled in order to shape it later."



And now what does that mean about how many soulmelds I can prepare? I can use three. Does that mean I can only prepare three?

You can shape a maximum number of soulmelds equal to the lower of:
- the amount on your class table, or
- your Con score minus 10.

In your case - yes, you can shape 3, provided that you have at least 13 Con.



And once they are prepared, does that mean they are... what's the right word... equipped? So I start the day off with all my soulmelds in place?

Shaping a soulmeld means it occupies a chakra. (This is not the same as binding it to a chakra, but since your only chakra available for binding right now is your Totem, don't worry about that yet.) All you need to know for now is that you can't have two soulmelds occupying the same chakra. For example, you can't shape both Pegasus Cloak and Displacer Mantle, because those both occupy your Shoulders.

[inexorabletruth]

Ok. That's starting to make more sense.

Thanks for the help, Psyren. :smallsmile: Basically, I'm just donning "magic" armor I didn't have to buy, and if I didn't like what I wore the day before, I can always make a new selection the next day. I guess that's not so bad.

I guess my problem was that I kept thinking of soulmelds as spells, even though the book keeps telling me not to think of them that way.

[Sgt. Cookie]

If you think of Incarnum as magic items on Steroids, Crystal Meth and Crack Cocaine at the same time, you understand the basics.

[inexorabletruth]

Lol!

Based on the crazy looking depictions of Totemists in MoI, I have to agree, Sgt. Cookie.

[Psyren]

Soulmelds do start out stronger than items (particularly with essentia) but unfortunately, scale very poorly. Consider that a Totemist meld is unlikely to give you much more than +12 competence to something at level 20; meanwhile, you can buy or craft a +30 competence item long before that. Or Incarnate weapon which gives a +5 weapon at level 18, whereas the Fighter can have a +9 equivalent weapon by then with WBL.

The main draw to Soulmelds is, again, that they're free - but past a certain point, you get what you pay for.

[dungeonnerd]

I second what Psy says here, to a point.

To me, after the better magic items become available, soul melds are about convince - you can prepare soul melds for things that are inconvienient to buy an item for, or is generally situational so you don't have to spend the gold. Personally, I like taking levels in totemist until I can shape and bind both totem avatar and the three-headed dragon (can't be flanked, some other niceties). After that, I generally shift into something else, leaving most slots free for magic items.

Totemist/Druid can be a fun progression - maybe not optimized, but fun.

[inexorabletruth]

I'm playing a Totemist/Factotum Gestalt that another Plagrounder recommended I try as a wilderness survivalist build.

I've never played either class, but thought I was long overdue to break the mold and try something new.

It's for a Low-Magic PbP campaign, so months can pass between levels, so I'm not too worried about becoming irrelevant at higher levels. It's fun being a crazy wildlife scientist... like some fantasy nod to the great Steve Irwin.

"Owh, isn't he goo'geous! He's 'uge! The lahgest of his breed! I can't leave 'im 'ere though. Oi've got to move 'im to a safa' lowcaytion! Oh 'e is really ayngry now! If only 'e knew we were tryin' to save him!"

[Draz74]

It's fun being a crazy wildlife scientist... like some fantasy nod to the great Steve Irwin.

"Owh, isn't he goo'geous! He's 'uge! The lahgest of his breed! I can't leave 'im 'ere though. Oi've got to move 'im to a safa' lowcaytion! Oh 'e is really ayngry now! If only 'e knew we were tryin' to save him!"

OK, now I want to play a Steve Irwin Totemist too ...

[inexorabletruth]

Go for it with my blessing. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

Just be sure to equip your Ray-bans :smalltongue::smallwink:
(Too soon?)

Note there are ways to build on Incarnum's synergy. For instance, Totemists can get a truly ridiculous number of natural attacks - all of which will be enhanced by a single Amulet of Mighty Fists. And since your essentia can enhance these natural attacks, you can focus your amulet on providing special abilities instead - Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen etc.

Also, as a general rule - Incarnate melds provide insight bonuses, while Totemist melds provide competence, so plan your buffs and other items accordingly. You'll also need to plan your feats well - in addition to the Incarnum feats you will likely want (Double/Split Chakra, Bonus Essentia etc.) you'll also want the Multiattack line.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's for a Low-Magic PbP campaign,

Can you link us to it? Pleeaassee?

[inexorabletruth]

Ok... but fyi, I don't do the Aussie accent in the game. It's a fairly new campaign, so we're all trying to flesh out our characters. I was originally going for something similar to Anthony Hopkins's character in the film Instinct (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdSZaTBWQqw)... but he's very rapidly turning into Steve Irwin.

It has the potential of making an interesting "What I Made, What the DM Saw, What I Played" post.

The campaign is called "Hunters: A Requiem" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257717)

[TopCheese]

Also please note that Totemist is about the only class that makes VoP a good choice.

Your soulmelds are not considered magic items after all. It also helps you make the choice of shaping a meld or using a magic item :p

Though I do still prefer the VoP remake from these forums

[Psyren]

Also please note that Totemist is about the only class that makes VoP a good choice.

*coughDruidcough*

[TopCheese]

*coughDruidcough*

I play Druids with items to much, I mean you don't have to play a shapeshifting monstrosity all the time. I actually like the UA druid variant ... Aspect of Nature?

Christmas Tree + Aspect of Nature = Fun in a can.

[Draz74]

Also please note that Totemist is about the only class one of about six classes that makes VoP a good somewhat tolerable choice.

FTFY. (Totemist, Incarnate, Psion, Ardent, Druid, Unarmed Swordsage)


Note there are ways to build on Incarnum's synergy. For instance, Totemists can get a truly ridiculous number of natural attacks - all of which will be enhanced by a single Amulet of Mighty Fists. And since your essentia can enhance these natural attacks, you can focus your amulet on providing special abilities instead - Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen etc.
Just how many natural attacks can an out-of-the-box Totemist get? Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to get more than maybe 7. So I get a little puzzled when I see claims like this -- but I'm sure there's something I'm missing.

And for the record, by RAW an Amulet of Mighty Fists (unlike a Necklace of Natural Attacks) can't give any weapon enhancements besides a generic plus. So that's one to ask the DM about.


Also, as a general rule - Incarnate melds provide insight bonuses, while Totemist melds provide competence, so plan your buffs and other items accordingly. You'll also need to plan your feats well - in addition to the Incarnum feats you will likely want (Double/Split Chakra, Bonus Essentia etc.) you'll also want the Multiattack line.
Multiattack, certainly. What other feats in "the Multiattack line" exist? If you're just thinking of Improved Multiattack ... it's not that great.

Double Chakra (Totem) is big money, though.

[tyckspoon]

Note there are ways to build on Incarnum's synergy. For instance, Totemists can get a truly ridiculous number of natural attacks - all of which will be enhanced by a single Amulet of Mighty Fists. And since your essentia can enhance these natural attacks, you can focus your amulet on providing special abilities instead - Ghost Touch, Holy, Keen etc.


This unfortunately requires some houseruling; while an Amulet of Mighty Fists does indeed apply to all attacks, it cannot provide special bonuses. The Amulet of Mighty Fists is RAW limited to just basic enhancement, although it is a pretty efficient way to get that basic enhancement when you're working with 6+ natural attacks.

The Necklace of Natural Attacks can host special properties, but it doesn't apply to all attacks- you have to pay per attack you want it to work with, which gets terribly expensive pretty quickly if you want all of your attacks to benefit.

There is not, as best as I can remember, an efficient way to apply special properties to all of the attacks a Totemist can get aside from those that can be gotten from soulmelds.

[animewatcha]

Back to Main OP topic. I am trying to build an incarnum character as well.

My main question goes along with OP's.
OP

Case A.

Con 14
Totemist 1

Day 1 - I shape 2 shape soulmelds
Day 2 - I can shape 2 different soulmelds and keep my previous 2 since I have a con of 14?

Or Case B.

Day 1 - I can shape 2 shapemelds.
Day 2 - I can keep one or both of my shapemelds OR I can choose 1 or 2 different soulmelds due to my meldshaper level on said chart.

My case.


Case C. My case since it deals with spinemeld warrior pg 147. Which by wording seems to only have the con score restriction.

I can shape my soul melds in accordance to my chart ( how many per day ) and keep as many as I want up ( shaping over the course of days ) limited only by my con score.

-edit- forgive me if it was already covered. I am trying to do multiple things at once on PC.

[Big Fau]

Yeah, the amulet is great if you want to save Essentia, but the necklace is the only way to add special properties. However, the necklace can be the best way to enhance your attacks if your DM rules that the Manticore Belt's spine attacks are natural weapons.

But I wouldn't try to enhance something like the Girallon Arms or Landshark Boots with it.

[The_Snark]

Back to Main OP topic. I am trying to build an incarnum character as well.

My main question goes along with OP's.
OP

Case A.

Con 14
Totemist 1

Day 1 - I shape 2 shape soulmelds
Day 2 - I can shape 2 different soulmelds and keep my previous 2 since I have a con of 14?

Or Case B.

Day 1 - I can shape 2 shapemelds.
Day 2 - I can keep one or both of my shapemelds OR I can choose 1 or 2 different soulmelds due to my meldshaper level on said chart.

Case B is correct. From the book:

The maximum number of soulmelds that you can have shaped simultaneously is equal to your Constitution score minus 10 or the number of soulmelds on the table, whichever is lower.

So you cannot accumulate more soulmelds over the course of several days.

Curiously, the text describing the spinemeld warrior's meldshaping ability leaves out that clause. I rather suspect this is an accident, but by RAW the specific description overrides the general rules for meldshaping given on rule 20.

[Eldonauran]

Just how many natural attacks can an out-of-the-box Totemist get? Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to get more than maybe 7. So I get a little puzzled when I see claims like this -- but I'm sure there's something I'm missing.

Out of the box? That's no fun. But you go to optimize it, you can get some pretty sweet numbers. See below for how to get 10 attacks

Try a Warforged Ex-Monk 1 / Totemist 10

2 flaws + 2 feat (Dragon Touched/unarmored body)
1) Jaws of Death (bite attack)
M1) Improved grapple
3) Multiattack
6) Bonus Essentia
9) Double Chakra (totem)

Bind Heart of Fire and Giralion Arms to totem (yay, double chakra feat): This gives you 4 claw attacks + #d4 fire damage to all natural attacks (where # is essentia invested)

Bind Sphinx Claws to Hands: full attack with all natural weapons on a charge

Shape Dragontail to feet: tail attack

Shape 2 others of your choice (I like Totem Avatar and Kruthick Claws, Heart and shoulders slot, respectively)


Tail (1)
Slam (1)
Bite (1)
Unarmed (2) / [Flurry = 3]
Claws (4)
---------
Total (9) / [10]

[Psyren]

This unfortunately requires some houseruling; while an Amulet of Mighty Fists does indeed apply to all attacks, it cannot provide special bonuses. The Amulet of Mighty Fists is RAW limited to just basic enhancement, although it is a pretty efficient way to get that basic enhancement when you're working with 6+ natural attacks.

My bad - I was thinking of Pathfinder :smalltongue:
There, not only can the amulet carry special abilities, you can even replace the amulet's entire enhancement with them - which is especially handy for a Totemist since they can get all that enhancement back through essentia, and end up effectively packing up to +10 weapons.

Definitely go with 3.P if the option is available I say.

[RFLS]

Just how many natural attacks can an out-of-the-box Totemist get? Personally, I've never been able to figure out how to get more than maybe 7. So I get a little puzzled when I see claims like this -- but I'm sure there's something I'm missing.

So, using a Thri-Kreen with Girallon Arms, Multiattack, Rapidstrike, and Improved Rapidstrike, and then taking a level of Monk for Flurry of Blows gets you up to something like 15 attacks.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that that falls apart somewhere in the RAW.

[Kazyan]

So, using a Thri-Kreen with Girallon Arms, Multiattack, Rapidstrike, and Improved Rapidstrike, and then taking a level of Monk for Flurry of Blows gets you up to something like 15 attacks.

Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure that that falls apart somewhere in the RAW.

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike only apply to one pair of weapons. A +1 Aptitude Necklace of Natural Attacks might help in that respect, depending on how you say Aptitude works.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Check my sig for a couple of good guides on Incarnum. It will give you all the basics you need to get going for Meldshaping, but in general:

* You shape soulmelds at the beginning of the day, up to the allotment for you depending on your class and level. These have certain innate abilities, most of them have additional bonuses for investing essentia into them.

* You can also bind soulmelds at the beginning of the day, up to the allotment for you depending on class and level. You may only bind a soulmeld to the location it is shaped at, with the exception of the Totem chakra, which needs you to shape it elsewhere and bind it to Totem chakra.

* Bound soulmelds will block magic items in that location, shaped soulmelds don't.

* Bound and Shaped soulmelds may not be changed without 8 hours of rest.

* Essentia can be used to augment an effect of a soulmeld. You can shift around how much essentia is invested in which soulmeld as a Swift action. Essentia sent into feats, however, are stuck for the day.

* You may only shape ONE soulmeld to any given chakra point, unless you spend a feat to permit two.

I hope this helps you out.

[RFLS]

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike only apply to one pair of weapons. A +1 Aptitude Necklace of Natural Attacks might help in that respect, depending on how you say Aptitude works.

Right; you've got 6 claws. I was interpreting that as 3 pairs.

[Darth Stabber]

FTFY. (Totemist, Incarnate, Psion, Ardent, Druid, Unarmed Swordsage

Wilder can work passably too, at least the educated wilder variant (otherwise just too few powers to make up for all the stuff you lose access to). Cleric is demi tolerable if you pick a race with a natural weapon or you are willing to dump a feat on improved unarmed strike, or dip a lvl or two monk.

[Kazyan]

Right; you've got 6 claws. I was interpreting that as 3 pairs.

Yes, and you would get 4 flurry UAS attacks, 1 bite, 6 regular claws, 6 more from Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike. 17. This is me not figuring out what your math was beforehand and trying to make a correection anyway, whoops.

[RFLS]

Hm...if you combo Monk/Totemist with a full BAB class to get your 4th iterative, you get 5 UAS, 6 claw attacks, 3 from Rapidstrike, 6 from Improved Rapidstrike (full BAB). That's 20... I wonder how high we can get it without resorting to questionable rules readings. Worth starting a new thread over?

[nedz]

Hm...if you combo Monk/Totemist with a full BAB class to get your 4th iterative, you get 5 UAS, 6 claw attacks, 3 from Rapidstrike, 6 from Improved Rapidstrike (full BAB). That's 20... I wonder how high we can get it without resorting to questionable rules readings. Worth starting a new thread over?

Quite high, only an old thread (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=146.0) is required.

[animewatcha]

Restriction that you guys may be forgetting about ( unless I am missing something ). Without proper feats, you can't flurry with natural attacks like bite, claws, etc.

[Darth Stabber]

Restriction that you guys may be forgetting about ( unless I am missing something ). Without proper feats, you can't flurry with natural attacks like bite, claws, etc.

That isn't what anyone was suggesting. You flurry with unarmed strikes, and then use the natural weapons. Same reason that improved unarmed strike or a monk dip has always been good for druid.

[animewatcha]

That's the thing. If the natural attacks were used as AoOs, I can see what you mean. However, all I've seen from books, FAQ or even drag mags is that if you use flurry in the full attack action, you can't use non-flurryable weapons in that whole action. Even if you were Two-weapon fighting in same action.

[nedz]

The standard rule for mixing weapon and natural attacks is that after making your weapon attacks you can then make a number of secondary natural attacks with any limbs (etc.) which you didn't use for your weapon attacks.

You can do exactly the same thing with Flurry.

[animewatcha]

Oh yeah. I just now looked through FAQ and drag mag 357 which addresses it. Nat attacks are done after the FoB.

What gets interesting is combining skarn monk racial sub, FoB, TWF, and Spine Warrior's Spine Rend ( not limited to once per round ).