Straight-Up Power Gaming Party

[odigity]

If four of you were starting a new Lvl 1-20 campaign and wanted to power game the crap out of it, couldn't you just pick Artificer, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard (dual-classed into Sorceror then Ultimate Magus), and use your starting gold to hire half a dozen mercernaries to keep watch and handle melee?

[LTwerewolf]

Our DM splits xp with everyone involved, even if those involved can't get xp, thus it takes forever to actually level. Not only that, but it waters down the game. At some point you can just have the dm just tell a story "You guys and your army defeat the other party and... *rolls dice* 3 of your hired mercs died." It would be about the same thing.

[mcv]

Our DM splits xp with everyone involved, even if those involved can't get xp, thus it takes forever to actually level.

Does that mean taking Leadership will cost everybody a lot of XP?

[LTwerewolf]

Does that mean taking Leadership will cost everybody a lot of XP?

It sure does, and that's how he balances leadership being such a powerful feat.

[jedipilot24]

Strictly speaking, a straight Batman wizard is better than an Ultimate Magus--which has to jump through a lot of hoops to get 9th level spells. If you are really bent on being on being an Ultimate Magus, then go Conjurer or Focused Conjurer/Beguiler/Ultimate Magus. That way you have only one casting attribute. Prohibit Illusion, Enchantment, and (if Focused) Necromancy on the Wizard side. The Beguiler spell list makes up for the Illusion and Enchantment loss but, at least IMHO, the Contingency spell is a lot more useful in the long run than the Necromancy school.

Mercs aren't cheap, especially for the long haul; did you see the prices?
But you wouldn't really need them. Cleric and Druid can, in a pinch, handle melee all by themselves--especially with a Batman wizard and an Artificer backing them up.

Of course, if you really want to power game, go gestalt.
Cleric//Paladin: the Ultimate Holy Warrior
Wizard//Archivist: The Ultimate Batman
Sorcerer//Favored Soul: The True Mystic Theurge
Druid//Ranger: Nature's Ultimate Defender
Artificer//Factotum: The Ultimate Skillmonkey

[Randomguy]

If four of you were starting a new Lvl 1-20 campaign and wanted to power game the crap out of it, couldn't you just pick Artificer, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard (dual-classed into Sorceror then Ultimate Magus), and use your starting gold to hire half a dozen mercernaries to keep watch and handle melee?

Who needs mercenaries? With a Cleric, Druid and animal companion you've already got 3 tanks. Not to mention summoned creatures.

[LadyLexi]

I mean, the best thing to do if you DM gives penalties for extra combatants is have the druid not take an animal companion, the wizard should not have a familiar and you don't want any mercenaries or cohorts/companions. Any wandering "allies" can just be slain for their juicy xp insides.

Also, why no Psion?

[odigity]

Also, why no Psion?

Because I'm still barely familiar with psionics, and I don't see Psions mentioned as a power class as often as the other four.

[nedz]

Our DM splits xp with everyone involved, even if those involved can't get xp, thus it takes forever to actually level. Not only that, but it waters down the game. At some point you can just have the dm just tell a story "You guys and your army defeat the other party and... *rolls dice* 3 of your hired mercs died." It would be about the same thing.

This is a common and spurious argument.

If there are more characters involved you can fight more enemies, thus the number of xp awarded increases. When this is shared out the individual characters get a smaller share of a larger pot.

What is actually happening, I suspect, is that the DM is running a slow progression campaign. This means that even if you had a lean and mean party, you would advance no faster.

[Gavinfoxx]

Of course, if you really want to power game, go gestalt.
Cleric//Paladin: the Ultimate Holy Warrior
Wizard//Archivist: The Ultimate Batman
Sorcerer//Favored Soul: The True Mystic Theurge
Druid//Ranger: Nature's Ultimate Defender
Artificer//Factotum: The Ultimate Skillmonkey

I would try to keep things on combined primary stat, in general... Cloistered Cleric // Mystic, Wizard//Factotum, Archivist//Factotum, Druid//Swordsage, Artificer//Factotum. At least, I'm pretty sure those have roughly the same stat requirements (corrections appreciated).

You don't need to buy mercs. Just buy Mules, and get them trained with a custom set of tricks for combat. They are perfectly fine tanks.

[Fouredged Sword]

StP erudite is higher op than psion due to multiple unlimited PP tricks that are lower hanging fruit.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If four of you were starting a new Lvl 1-20 campaign and wanted to power game the crap out of it, couldn't you just pick Artificer, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard (dual-classed into Sorceror then Ultimate Magus), and use your starting gold to hire half a dozen mercernaries to keep watch and handle melee?

Mercenaries? Sacrificing wizard levels to get into some dual-progression PrC? Who needs that?

[Fouredged Sword]

Everyone just takes wild cohort at level one to snag a riding dog. They can retrain later once the sorcerer/malconvoker comes into his own.

[Morcleon]

Because I'm still barely familiar with psionics, and I don't see Psions mentioned as a power class as often as the other four.


StP erudite is higher op than psion due to multiple unlimited PP tricks that are lower hanging fruit.

Yep. Get an StP Erudite, manifest metaconcert with your psicrystal to get all your powers known at will without worrying about unique powers/day. Then, when you run low on PP, manifest a persistent temporal acceleration, rest, re-buff, and jump back in. :smallwink::smalltongue:

[Arcanist]

Mercenaries? Sacrificing wizard levels to get into some dual-progression PrC? Who needs that?

I agree with Jade on this one... Partially. I would have personally gone Human StP Spell Focused Erudite3 / Specialist Wizard1 / Master Specialist1 / Cerebremancer10 / Archmage5

and just take up Practiced Manifester, Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought. Boom. I'm now an Arcanist now (See Netheril: Empire of Magic) with access to my entire spell list at all times with access to an adjustable spell list and the ability to spontaneously cast/manifest whatever the hell I, whenever the hell I want :smalltongue:

... But that is just me...

[Aliek]

Yep. Get an StP Erudite, manifest metaconcert with your psicrystal to get all your powers known at will without worrying about unique powers/day. Then, when you run low on PP, manifest a persistent temporal acceleration, rest, re-buff, and jump back in. :smallwink::smalltongue:


Eh, how are you persisting temporal acceleration..? IIRC there isn't a persist metapsionic feat.

[Morcleon]

Eh, how are you persisting temporal acceleration..? IIRC there isn't a persist metapsionic feat.

There's a 3.0 version. (http://dndtools.eu/feats/psionics-handbook-30--46/persistent-power--2138/) And if it hasn't been updated... :smallamused:

Also it only costs 8 extra PP, which is equivalent to +4-5 spell levels. :smallbiggrin:

[Hirax]

Eh, how are you persisting temporal acceleration..? IIRC there isn't a persist metapsionic feat.

There's always good ol' fashioned metamind abuse. If the OP is talking in the context of a party, then have one person be a metamind constantly having temporal reiteration affect the party, and another person dip into void disciple. Those feats that the void disciple can grant people temporarily? They'll never run out. Thanks to fission never running out due to temporal reititeration, there will be two people to split temporal reiteration duties as needed. So, as long as the party doesn't split up into a more than 3 parts, over a period of time the party will acquire and be able to use all non-ancestor feats, even ones they don't qualify for. Hello, epic spellcasting.

[Radar]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Incantatrix as the primary choice for Wizard PrC. For one, metamagic stacking works brilliantly on buffs. For two, Shape Spell metamagic is hilarious combined with the ability to tack in onto other people's spells or move around your own battlefield control spells.

As for the starting gold, give it all to the Artificer and let him multiply it's value.

If we are talking about high-end powergaming, then either the Druid goes for Planar Shephard or is replaced by a Psion for all the action economy and time shenanigans.

[Kazyan]

If I was asked to play a straight-up powergaming party, I would choose a Lurk, Soulborn, Hexblade and Healer. Because after a plethora of rehashing the standard classes and builds, wouldn't it be fun to troll the optimization-minded DM?

[odigity]

If I was asked to play a straight-up powergaming party, I would choose a Lurk, Soulborn, Hexblade and Healer. Because after a plethora of rehashing the standard classes and builds, wouldn't it be fun to troll the optimization-minded DM?

What, no monk? :)

[Draz74]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Incantatrix as the primary choice for Wizard PrC. For one, metamagic stacking works brilliantly on buffs. For two, Shape Spell metamagic is hilarious combined with the ability to tack in onto other people's spells or move around your own battlefield control spells.
Definitely crossed my mind, but who's to say whether Incantatrix Wizard is better or worse than Incantatrix Wu Jen (using the famous Team Solars trick to buff the rest of the party instead of having the Wizard spell list)?

Actually, more to the point, where is the cheesiness ceiling in this "power gaming" exercise? Judging by the tone of the OP, Pun-Pun obviously isn't allowed. But Incantatrix is still far too overpowered for many DMs. If Incantatrix is allowed, what else (even more powerful) is allowed? Dweomerkeeper? Cancer Mage (abuse)? Illithid Savant? Tainted Scholar? Or even ...


If we are talking about high-end powergaming, then either the Druid goes for Planar Shephard or is replaced by a Psion Spell-to-Power Erudite for all the action economy and time shenanigans.

... this monstrosity?

[Kazyan]

What, no monk? :)

I tried to play a Monk once, but a masked man with a distinctive giggle that I couldn't quite place hit me with a rolling pin. I woke up in my bed with the names of all disciplines written on the sheets in my own blood. There were obscure sourcebooks in the freezer, with all but the Feats sections replaced by pictures of deceased family pets.

So yeah, no monks.

[legomaster00156]

What, no monk? :)
We're talking weak classes, not useless ones. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

We're talking weak classes, not useless ones. :smalltongue:

If he wanted useless classes, he would have chosen Truenamer. Even Monks are paragons of effectiveness in relative comparison.

[Eldariel]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Incantatrix as the primary choice for Wizard PrC. For one, metamagic stacking works brilliantly on buffs. For two, Shape Spell metamagic is hilarious combined with the ability to tack in onto other people's spells or move around your own battlefield control spells.

As for the starting gold, give it all to the Artificer and let him multiply it's value.

If we are talking about high-end powergaming, then either the Druid goes for Planar Shephard or is replaced by a Psion for all the action economy and time shenanigans.

Your standards for high-end powergaming are staggeringly low.

[Morcleon]

If he wanted useless classes, he would have chosen Truenamer. Even Monks are paragons of effectiveness in relative comparison.

Actually, truenamer isn't that hard to optimize. The problem is it runs off of a skill check. Which means that it's either completely ineffective, or extremely so.

[Rejakor]

What this forum thinks of as 'powergaming' is pretty funny coming from BG and 337.

When I think of powergaming, i'm thinking of simultaneous solar gate attacks on multi-planet clone-farm hegemonies and repeated time-travel based DDOS attacks on people's pre-birth timelines, and characters that exist outside time and space, and 'losing' simply meaning that you have to create your OWN universe to play around in.

But apparently a party without a Fighter in it works just as well. :P

[Hiro Protagonest]

What this forum thinks of as 'powergaming' is pretty funny coming from BG and 337.

When I think of powergaming, i'm thinking of simultaneous solar gate attacks on multi-planet clone-farm hegemonies and repeated time-travel based DDOS attacks on people's pre-birth timelines, and characters that exist outside time and space, and 'losing' simply meaning that you have to create your OWN universe to play around in.

But apparently a party without a Fighter in it works just as well. :P

There's a line between powergaming, and just plain abusing the rules.

And Terminator-style attacks? Existing outside of time and space? Losing meaning you have to create a new universe? I have never heard of these tricks, and the only way I can think of them being possible is epic-level spellcasting, or maybe super abuse of StP Erudite for the time stuff.

[Rejakor]

There are a number of ways to travel through time in 3.5 pre-epic. The easiest ways are all epic, though, of course.

There are also a number of ways to create your own universe, sealed from the rest of reality.


Also, if you want to tell stories about wizards that live in towers and have incompetent kobold minions and use fireballs, that's great and fine. Just don't call what other people have fun doing 'abusing' the rules. That implies all sorts of negative connotations that aren't actually occurring.

[Morcleon]

There are a number of ways to travel through time in 3.5 pre-epic. The easiest ways are all epic, though, of course.

Buy a Rod of Excellent Magic. Take the Eschew Materials feat. Cast Teleport through Time. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) The flower material component has no listed cost... :smallamused:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Buy a Rod of Excellent Magic. Take the Eschew Materials feat. Cast Teleport through Time. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) The flower material component has no listed cost... :smallamused:

This is what I mean by rules abuse. Using Incantatrix and Easy Metamagic and such to reduce metamagic cost so you can cast a Twin Split Empowered Orb of Fire is one thing. Using Eschew Materials to replace an object that's priceless, rather than worthless...

[Rejakor]

Mreh? Go to the demiplane of flowers.

Pick one.

Go back in time.

Problem solved.


It's not 'abuse' if the part that's being 'abused' is just for convenience's sake. It doesn't even matter particularly.

[Morcleon]

This is what I mean by rules abuse. Using Incantatrix and Easy Metamagic and such to reduce metamagic cost so you can cast a Twin Split Empowered Orb of Fire is one thing. Using Eschew Materials to replace an object that's priceless, rather than worthless...

Most of what is called "rules abuse" is generally an exercise in theory, rather than something that is actually expected to be used. It's pretty fun, finding these loopholes...:smallamused:

[Rejakor]

Well, in an infinite planes, the person who figures out how to use the rules the best is the one who is going to create an ever-expanding clone empire.

And that's the basis under which I run my games.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, in an infinite planes, the person who figures out how to use the rules the best is the one who is going to create an ever-expanding clone empire.

And that's the basis under which I run my games.

And he shall be named 'Horatio'. And the empire is named 'Horatio'. As well as every inhabitant...

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Horatio#Horatio

[nedz]

And he shall be named 'Horatio'. And the empire is named 'Horatio'. As well as every inhabitant...

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Horatio#Horatio

No, surely you mean Rimmer ?:smallamused: