"Dark Magic" Class?

[Raistlin1040]

I'm working on creating a character that specializes in some kind of dark magic, be it necromancy or demon summoning, or just some kind of fluff-based forbidden knowledge type thing. I know Dread Necromancer and Warlock, but our party already has a Warlock, and I am trying to see if there's anything I overlooked. So far I've considered Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Dread Necro, and Cleric, but I'm wondering if anyone knows of a class that has the feel of what I've described, and where I could find it. Thanks!

[TopCheese]

Have you looked into Binder?

[Randomguy]

Hexblade is the big one that you missed. There's also binder and shadowcaster. Other than that, there might be a few prestige classes out there for that kind of stuff, like Alienist, Acolyte of the Skin, Nar Demonbinder and Fleshwarper.

[Answerer]

Binder (Tome of Magic) is definitely my choice for a base class.

Other good base classes, aside from those you listed.... Sha'ir (Dragon Compendium) would be pretty good if you refluffed the genies as fiends. Archivist (Heroes of Horror) is more like a paranormal investigator, but could definitely work with his Dark Knowledge class feature.

For Prestige Classes, a spellcaster could go into Malconvoker (Complete Scoundrel) for great fiend summoning. If you're Divine, there's always the Thaumaturge, which is not awful.

Warlock could go into Hellfire Warlock (Fiendish Codex II), or for a fairly underpowered option, Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark, or from the excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a&page=3)). Possibly even both.

The Fiendbinder (Tome of Magic) does exist, but it's pretty weak. Then again, calling fiends is often a high-power tactic so that might be appropriate.

Nar Demonbinder (Unapproachable East) is good at summoning, but kinda weird to enter. Wizard or (better, if you'll allow it) Sha'ir and then using Ultimate Magus for progressing both your prepared casting and Nar Demonbinder's a pretty good schtick.

Ur-Priest (Complete Divine) is another one that's somewhat awkward to enter, but it's much more obviously potent. It's also very appropriate. A Binder/Ur-Priest/Tenebrous Apostate just oozes flavor.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hexblade, Jester, Binder, Sha'ir, Archivist, Wizard, Cleric, Conjurer (don't ban necromancy), Dread Necromancer...

[Wyntonian]

Be a wizard/dread necro/whatever you want, wear a lot of black and angst about the demon slowly taking over your soul.

Also, +1 to binder. It's a fun class, very versatile.

[The Succubus]

A wise man once said: "There is no light or dark magic. There is magic wielded by good people and there is magic wielded by complete b******s."

[Telonius]

Binder, Shadowcaster, Dread Necromancer, Ur-Priest, Red Wizard of Thay, becoming a Lich, Sandshaper, pick any casting PrC from BoVD ...

[limejuicepowder]

Anima Mage is another good one, and offers the Binder (already a good class) a potential giant upgrade in power.

For an extremely flavorful and less (potentially) OP build, work with your DM to make Anima Mage advance binder and warlock instead of binder and arcane spell caster. IMO in makes for a more synergistic build, since the full casting side of the anima mage can make the binder side rather redundant.

[Wookie-ranger]

With enough re-fluff you could use Wu-jen or also a Psion (or other Psi class).
Just say that there is only one place in the multiverse that is darker then the negative energy plane, more twisted then Limbo and more terrifying then the entire Abyss. And this is the place you draw your power from.
My mind! Muuuuhahahaha [evil laugh]

[GolemsVoice]

Amazingly, a malconvoker works, if you ignore or switch out the abilities dealing with deceiving fiends and staying Good while doing so. After all, the class is still about summoning fiends.

[KillianHawkeye]

Cancer Mage, because nothing says evil like giving people cancer. :smallwink:

[willpell]

Jester

? Was is das?

[Kelb_Panthera]

? Was is das?

Pretty sure it's from the dragon compendium, but don't quote me on that.

Hexblade fits the fluff, but it may be a bit weak. It's a fairly quick entry into suel archanamach though.

I'd say more, but all the good suggestions are already taken.

There is one bad suggestion (read; horribly overpowered) though; Heroes of Horror's tainted scholar PrC. It absolutely reeks of a caster partaking of forbidden knowledge and power. It also reeks of cheese, though.

[Sith_Happens]

There is one bad suggestion (read; horribly overpowered) though; Heroes of Horror's tainted scholar PrC. It absolutely reeks of a caster partaking of forbidden knowledge and power. It also reeks of cheese, though.

It also requires use of an optional rule that's not in effect in most campaigns.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It also requires use of an optional rule that's not in effect in most campaigns.

This makes it less of a bad option, how? :smallamused: :smalltongue:

[nedz]

You can do anything with Wizard, Cleric or even Sorcerer.

How about a Dark Bard - aiming for Sublime Chord? This is a late flowering Sorcerer version, but you're Alice Cooper.

[Sith_Happens]

This makes it less of a bad option, how? :smallamused: :smalltongue:

I was in fact impying that that makes it an even worse option. You know, because "not possible" generally equals "not good.":smalltongue:

[Venger]

A wise man once said: "There is no light or dark magic. There is magic wielded by good people and there is magic wielded by complete b******s."

dresden?


Pretty sure it's from the dragon compendium, but don't quote me on that.

jester actually is in dragon compendium.


You can do anything with Wizard, Cleric or even Sorcerer.

How about a Dark Bard - aiming for Sublime Chord? This is a late flowering Sorcerer version, but you're Alice Cooper.

take doomspeak, never look back. an absolutely brutal debuff that will ruin your enemies' lives

if you're not very high-op, demonologist can work. its spell list has some cool stuff, including the greatest spell level discount ever: bestow greater curse. normally 8, 4 for you.

[nedz]

Where do I find doomspeak ?

[Arcanist]

A wise man once said: "There is no light or dark magic. There is magic wielded by good people and there is magic wielded by complete b******s."

I agree with this. Magic is gray. It's uses and applications can be Evil, just as it's uses and applications can be Good. The fact any spell has an alignment descriptor is disturbing to me. My personal favorite application of normally Evil magic is to planar bind an Evil Outsider, Use a Binding Spell to permanently seal it (getting a Caster level of 38 is child's play) if it says "No", and order it to willingly fail the next spell that attacks it. Cast Mind Rape. Order it to serve you for the rest of eternity. Have it wander the plane building orphanages and slaying Evil creatures (except himself). :smallsigh:

[Venger]

Where do I find doomspeak ?

champions of ruin, page 20

agree on magic is a tool, how you use it is what makes you good or evil.

escalation mage is a fun option for this vein. it's in faiths of eberron. worship the shadow and get free metamagic a bunch of times a day

[Zombulian]

Maho-Tsukai from Oriental Adventures is the classic "regular caster being drawn to the great power of the dark side" blood magicky stuff.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Maho-Tsukai from Oriental Adventures is the classic "regular caster being drawn to the great power of the dark side" blood magicky stuff.

It's also the original incarnation of the tainted scholar.

It went maho-tsukai (OA) -> tainted sorcerer (UA) -> tainted scholar (HoH), and now you know.

And knowing is half the battle. :smallwink:

.Showing my age with that one, huh?.

[Zombulian]

It's also the original incarnation of the tainted scholar.

It went maho-tsukai (OA) -> tainted sorcerer (UA) -> tainted scholar (HoH), and now you know.

And knowing is half the battle. :smallwink:

.Showing my age with that one, huh?.

Eh. But the Taint rules from OA are different, and much less cheesy. Also the SpC is 3.5 and talks about adding spells to the Maho-Tsukai list. I wouldn't necessarily say it was updated, it has it's very own weabooy flavor!

[Kelb_Panthera]

The taint mechanics got tweaked a little in all three incarnations too, but it really doesn't matter.

All three versions of the class are inherently, horribly overpowered and utterly reek of power-gaming cheese.

I only ever brought the thing up for completeness' sake.

Who knows? the op's DM might be willing to work with him on incorporating a house-ruled to functional version of the class into the game. Kind of a long-shot, IMO, but what the heck.

[Zombulian]

The taint mechanics got tweaked a little in all three incarnations too, but it really doesn't matter.

All three versions of the class are inherently, horribly overpowered and utterly reek of power-gaming cheese.

I only ever brought the thing up for completeness' sake.

Who knows? the op's DM might be willing to work with him on incorporating a house-ruled to functional version of the class into the game. Kind of a long-shot, IMO, but what the heck.

True. I like the flavor of all of them and all of them being the sort of forbidden great power, but I don't think it's really meant for a PC. Maybe a BBG of ridiculous power but... no not a PC.

[Talionis]

Tainted Scholar from Heroes of Horror is a prestige class that may work very well.

Swordsaged/ or is it Monked now??? Sorry Kelb_Panthera, I only saw Hexblade in that post, I read too fast.

[Zombulian]

Tainted Scholar from Heroes of Horror is a prestige class that may work very well.

You done been Monk'd.

[Rejakor]

For the whole 'dark magic that man must not know' thing, Binder wins basically hands down.

I personally like Binder/Wizard/Anima Mage, as that gives off the 'dark magic' feel the very best. Keep in mind, though, that your character's attitude and personality will make the magic, any magic, be 'dark'. Without it, even the darkest of foulevil magic comes off like a saturday morning cartoon.

[Kaje]

I'm a fan of Binder 1/Archivist 3/Divine Anima Mage 10/Tainted Sorcerer 1/Tenebrous Apostate 5.

[Raistlin1040]

Binder looks pretty interesting, but I'm not really sure what to do with it. It seems like some kind of weird hybrid melee/magic class and I don't know what ability scores or feats or anything would be useful.

[Rejakor]

Binder is pretty simple. Go and read the vestiges. They give you the stuff they say they do. It's great to combine with other things because the vestiges on their own can give you some interesting abilities it's hard to get from other places but typically need something else (a feat combo, or spells) to fully make use of them.

They make good melee guys. They don't really make good archers. They can give you some great abilities for a gish, or even a regular spellcaster. But they work best as a hybrid. I have played a binder/wizard exactly once. I played him as the scion of a noble family who had been trained as a wizard (magical talent was extremely rare - low magic setting) but was from a family that traditionally went into the elite knighthood - as a consequence he had 16 str and I gave him martial weapon proficiency, so he basically strode around using binder to augment his melee abilities and occasionally dropped a wizard spell as a kind of grenade. At higher levels he'd have been covered in buffs, gishing it up and using BfC as necessary. That's what I think binder/wizard does best, and it played up the whole 'dark pacts' thing really well, but you could do any number of things with it.

There's a couple of 3rd party books, Secrets of Pact Magic and something else, that present an alternate Pact Magic system that might be better. I haven't looked at them, but hey.

[Answerer]

Binder is pretty simple.
I can't agree with this. The system is simple enough, but actually making and playing a Binder is not particularly so. They have an overwhelming number of options, that can make it very difficult to figure out what you're doing.

Basically, a Binder can be decent to good at just about anything. A lot of playing a Binder well is either finding a niche your party is missing, or capitalizing on the ability to bind different things each day to completely change who you are, mechanically.

[Rejakor]

Honestly I found it pretty easy to try to pick the right vestige for the right situation.

Depending on what you're fighting, the defensive abilities of Savnok, the healing abilities of Buer, the ability to attack everyone once of Paimon, the incredible stealth and scouting of Malphas... it just depends on what you're after. The vestiges people have created online just add to your options if they're allowed. (Hessesselen is my favourite).

[Kelb_Panthera]

Tainted Scholar from Heroes of Horror is a prestige class that may work very well.

Swordsaged/ or is it Monked now??? Sorry Kelb_Panthera, I only saw Hexblade in that post, I read too fast.

's alright.

Zombulian's use of "monk'd" there is the first I've ever seen that used. "Swordsage'd" was gaining in popularity for a while, but it kind of petered off. I never stopped using the classic "ninja'd," myself.

[Zombulian]

's alright.

Zombulian's use of "monk'd" there is the first I've ever seen that used. "Swordsage'd" was gaining in popularity for a while, but it kind of petered off. I never stopped using the classic "ninja'd," myself.

Monk'd is a term I came up with with another user here. It is a term for ninja'ing when the actual act of ninja'ing was done hours before, and if the person had read through first, they would have seen it. I just thought it was silly :smalltongue:.

[nedz]

I think that we need a term for plagiarism.
How about Zombulian'd ? :smallamused:

[Melayl]

What about Archivist? Searching old tomes and dusty tombs for forbidden knowledge?

[XmonkTad]

I vote necrocarnate. I love Incarnum, and even if you don't go for the prestige class necrocarnate circlet is a great thing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

What about Archivist? Searching old tomes and dusty tombs for forbidden knowledge?

I honestly don't like a straight archivist for a "dark magic" character. All of the "dark" in the class is a direct result of the book its in and nothing in its mechanics is really strongly suggestive of forbidden things that mortals were not meant to know.

They've always come of more as simply divine wizards to me.

Specific choices on the archivist's part can certainly get the desired effect; focus on necromancy, a dip into cleric or sacred exorcist for rebuke, etc; but that's true of any magic user.

Note that I used necromancy examples because they were the first thing that came to mind, not because they are "things that mortals were not meant to know." I'd've drawn from LoM if I had remembered anything specific from the book to use.

[Melayl]

I honestly don't like a straight archivist for a "dark magic" character. All of the "dark" in the class is a direct result of the book its in and nothing in its mechanics is really strongly suggestive of forbidden things that mortals were not meant to know.

They've always come of more as simply divine wizards to me.

Specific choices on the archivist's part can certainly get the desired effect; focus on necromancy, a dip into cleric or sacred exorcist for rebuke, etc; but that's true of any magic user.

Note that I used necromancy examples because they were the first thing that came to mind, not because they are "things that mortals were not meant to know." I'd've drawn from LoM if I had remembered anything specific from the book to use.
I only meant that you could flavor it that way, not that it was inherently "dark".

[Zombulian]

I think that we need a term for plagiarism.
How about Zombulian'd ? :smallamused:

NEDZ! I couldn't remember your name. I dunno I took some credit for it because it originated from a post of mine, even though you came up with the term. :smallfrown: FORGIVE ME

[nedz]

Forgiven, it's not important.