empowered maximized awakened plants

[LastOblivion]

when a plan is awakened it is give 3d6 for all of its mental stats

but one of my players of an upcoming campaign is trying to claim that he can be a symbiotic human plant with 18 + 3d6 for all of his mental stats since the plant he is bonded with was awakened with an empowered maximized awaken.

now that ive looked into it, im not sure he can apply empower or maximize to the awaken spell. Though the stat gains are variables, the spell is a saving throw based spell so i believe that it would not work.

He claimed he read on the forum that this is works and is perfectly acceptable. I on the other hand am not so sure. If i openly claim that he can't do this he will now doubt complain endlessly because it supposedly says somewhere on the forum he can. I was hoping someone may be able to shed so more light on this.

[Gavinfoxx]

"What's the level adjustment of the Awakened template? How about Animated Object template? Oh there isn't one? Than it isn't available for player characters, only npc's."

[prufock]

The feat combo does in fact work. The saving throw line means only that the DCs of the saving throws are not increased by the feats. Only the variable numeric effects (which 3d6 is) are affected.

However as Gavinfoxx said, Awaken (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm)ed plants are treated as Animated Objects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/animatedObject.htm), which have an LA of -, meaning they aren't suitable for PCs.

[toapat]

"What's the level adjustment of the Awakened template? Oh there isn't one? Than it isn't available for player characters, only npc's."

Awakened may have the effects of a template, but it doesnt actually apply a template.

The thing is, creatures/plants it is applied to typically do not have LA, as a result of having too little int to take class levels.

and if you want to get hit with an epic spell for awakening, you might as well get hit with an Intensified Awaken that gives 36 base int.

[The Glyphstone]

If he whines when you say no, give him the burden of proof - if he can't show you exactly where on the forums he's 'allowed to do this', he can't. And if he can, show him this thread and say he can't anyways.

[Jungian]

I'm a little confused as to what exactly a symbiotic human plant is...I believe awaken can be maximized and empowered. The way I read the feat is that saving throws and opposed rolls are not altered by empower or maximize, not that having a saving throw excludes the spell from being empowered or maximized. The example in the maximize spell description is an empowered maximized fireball, which has a saving throw for 1/2 damage.

Answered upthread

If the player wants to be difficult just say that a symbiotic create has a shared consciousness, and that intelligence isn't additive. So what you have is a intelligent person with an equally intelligent plant attached. Personally I would allow the plant to be awakened, then promptly decide to take root and give up this mammalian movement nonsense, or strangle him and absorb him as nutrients.

[wannabedm]

I believe you guys are missing the point... He said symbiotic... WITH an awakened plant. While I believe he is in some way correct that it could have been empowered/maximized and awakened the template for symbiotic is ultimately a background part of his character. As a DM I would rule that there are very few awakened SYMBIOTIC plants out there and those that are empowered/maximized are even more rare and would not end up on a low level character, and therefore he should take the symbiotic plant and roll stats as normal without empowered/maximized, as either way this will net him higher stats than normal plus the immunities from being plant-like.

~wannabe

[dungeonnerd]

Wouldn't the easiest answer be to apply the Symbiotic Template from Savage Species?

This neatly avoids the "i want to add scores" issue by pointing to existing rules.


Symbiotic is a template that can be added to any two living creatures of the following types: animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin. [...] One (hereafter referred to as the guest) must be at least two size categories smaller than the other (hereafter referred to as the host).
[...]
Abilities: Use the physical scores (STR DEX CON) of the host and the mental scores (INT WIS CHA) of the guest (minimum INT3).

Depending on the size of the awakened plant, either he can't do it (no size difference), he's mentally in control with the plants physical scores (tree-borg), or he becomes an NPC because the plant takes him over for its own desires.

[toapat]

The actual way the OP is asking about doesnt work, as the symbiot overrides the bonded creature's Mental attributes.

but either way, PCs are not supposed to get 27 base Int, Wis, and Cha, or 36 in all three.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Let's see what he's talking about here:

The Symbiotic Creature template, in Savage Species, which combines a 'host' with a 'guest' to create an end result. That end result has a +1 LA, uses the HD and physical stats of the Host, and the mental stats of the Guest. You retain all of the special attacks and special qualities of both creatures. The Host must be at least two sizes larger than the Guest, and both must be from the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin creature types. Also note that the end result's creature type changes to Aberration, so he would not retain any benefits of the plant creature type (immunities, etc.).

Just to point out, that's one of the more abusable (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863774/Symbiotic_Creature_Template_-_Handbook) templates in the game due to the fact that it ignores the HD and LA of the Guest. At least he's not trying to throw Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) onto the Guest.

Awaken can be cast on an animal or a tree, nothing else. An Empowered + Maximized Awaken will give an awakened tree Int, Wis, and Cha scores each of 18+(3d6/2), which will average 28.5. Note that an awakened tree is friendly toward the individual who cast Awaken, and with the plant creature type they're immune to anything mind-affecting, which could include Diplomacy at the DM's discretion.

Note that a friendly attitude is not enough for it to permanently bond to another creature unless it's in the best interest of the awakened tree, assuming the potential Host is even the one who cast it. Also keep in mind that trees are extremely long-lived and grow quite large, so it would probably prefer to attach to a creature which will live quite a long time and give it the greatest room to grow, so the bigger the potential Host the better. Remember that a Host can only accommodate a Guest of two sizes smaller. It may outright abandon the PC for the first giant that crosses their path, as that would give it hundreds of years and plenty of room to grow.

So there you have it, almost zero chance of convincing an awakened tree to become a Guest unless you cast Awaken yourself or you happen to be quite large and are expected to live hundreds of years. Think of the Ents from the Lord of the Rings and their attitude toward adventure, that's how an Awakened Tree would feel so it would be far more likely to attach to a lazy ogre. Even if a PC gets one as a Guest, it could abandon him without any notice if a bigger, less adventurous potential Host were to reveal himself. So by DM discretion, it actually balances itself.

[Aliek]

Also, shouldn't it be 18+ 1.5d6? Not totally sure how to work it out RAW, we usually roll 3d6 and divide by 2.

[toapat]

Also, shouldn't it be 18+ 1.5d6? Not totally sure how to work it out RAW, we usually roll 3d6 and divide by 2.

its 27, unless Wizards said that Maximize doesnt affect dice from empower

[Ceaon]

Maximize and Empower work seperately from each other.

Maximize Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.
So it'd be max(3d6) + .5(3d6).

That said, I think it's a cool idea - even though it isn't RAW, couldn't you and the player work something out?

[LTwerewolf]

its 27, unless Wizards said that Maximize doesnt affect dice from empower

Pretty sure maximize says it in the Player's handbook on page 98, top left.

[toapat]

Pretty sure maximize says it in the Player's handbook on page 98, top left.

doesnt change the fact that a metamagic other then Intensify is a waste on Awaken

[LTwerewolf]

doesnt change the fact that a metamagic other then Intensify is a waste on Awaken

Not disputing that at all.

[Ashtagon]

The correct answer is:

No, because am the DM and I say no.

[toapat]

The correct answer is:

No, because am the DM and I say no.

anyone who wants to make a Symbiote creature should already have their character concept banned, as it typically will include a Paragon Intensified Awakened Dread Blossom Swarm.

[Urpriest]

Let's see what he's talking about here:

The Symbiotic Creature template, in Savage Species, which combines a 'host' with a 'guest' to create an end result. That end result has a +1 LA, uses the HD and physical stats of the Host, and the mental stats of the Guest. You retain all of the special attacks and special qualities of both creatures. The Host must be at least two sizes larger than the Guest, and both must be from the animal, humanoid, plant, or vermin creature types. Also note that the end result's creature type changes to Aberration, so he would not retain any benefits of the plant creature type (immunities, etc.).

Just to point out, that's one of the more abusable (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863774/Symbiotic_Creature_Template_-_Handbook) templates in the game due to the fact that it ignores the HD and LA of the Guest. At least he's not trying to throw Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/paragonCreature.htm) onto the Guest.

Awaken can be cast on an animal or a tree, nothing else. An Empowered + Maximized Awaken will give an awakened tree Int, Wis, and Cha scores each of 18+(3d6/2), which will average 28.5. Note that an awakened tree is friendly toward the individual who cast Awaken, and with the plant creature type they're immune to anything mind-affecting, which could include Diplomacy at the DM's discretion.

Note that a friendly attitude is not enough for it to permanently bond to another creature unless it's in the best interest of the awakened tree, assuming the potential Host is even the one who cast it. Also keep in mind that trees are extremely long-lived and grow quite large, so it would probably prefer to attach to a creature which will live quite a long time and give it the greatest room to grow, so the bigger the potential Host the better. Remember that a Host can only accommodate a Guest of two sizes smaller. It may outright abandon the PC for the first giant that crosses their path, as that would give it hundreds of years and plenty of room to grow.

So there you have it, almost zero chance of convincing an awakened tree to become a Guest unless you cast Awaken yourself or you happen to be quite large and are expected to live hundreds of years. Think of the Ents from the Lord of the Rings and their attitude toward adventure, that's how an Awakened Tree would feel so it would be far more likely to attach to a lazy ogre. Even if a PC gets one as a Guest, it could abandon him without any notice if a bigger, less adventurous potential Host were to reveal himself. So by DM discretion, it actually balances itself.

A few corrections:
The tree can't abandon you. Yes, it can Detach, but it has no ability to attach to anyone who isn't you.

The tree, except when detached, isn't an NPC. A symbiotic creature is one creature, not two, and thus is played by the player.

A template's level adjustment applies on top of the base creature's level adjustment. Since there are two base creatures in this case and neither is given clear priority, you have to read the template to see which is referred to. When such a listing is absent, you wait for errata before using the template. So in this case we need to wait for errata that will never come. Sigh. But regardless, there is no a priori reason to think either the host or the guest is favored. Note that Tauric specifies this detail, if in the wrong place, so clearly the writers knew what was required.

Becoming a symbiotic creature doesn't necessarily involve choice, it's an acquired template but we don't know how it's acquired, so there is no reason that the tree needs to be helpful first.

As a side issue, do you have any evidence that Diplomacy is [Mind Affecting]?

[Clistenes]

Two things:

First, the text of Awaken says "Target: One animal or tree" and "The touched animal or tree gains sentience", so the plant must be a tree, hence, not smaller than himself, so the human would be the small creature of the template (and the three would be at least Huge, with 8 HD).

He couldn't use the 18 to every mental stats of the Maximized Awaken spell, because the smaller creature is the one giving the mix its mental stats.

He could still roll the abilities of the human being and put the str, dex and con at 3, while he raises the int, cha and wis to a maximum, BUT then comes the second point:

The symbiotic creature has +1 LA due to the symbiotic template, plus at least 8 aberration HD of the awakened three, plus maybe +1 or +2 LA for the awakened creature.

So he wants to play a freakish (everybody will fear and hate him) aberration of Huge size with dex 8, 8 racial HD and +1 to +3 LA? Be unable to use armor and weapons that aren't custom-made? In exchange for a strength of 20 (which a half-orc can get without level adjustment) and high mental stats (but he will have to reach level 10 before being able to cast a spell)? Let him do it.

[Urpriest]

Two things:

First, the text of Awaken says "Target: One animal or tree" and "The touched animal or tree gains sentience", so the plant must be a tree, hence, not smaller than himself, so the human would be the small creature of the template (and the three would be at least Huge, with 8 HD).


I imagine the idea is to use a bonsai tree.

[Clistenes]

I imagine the idea is to use a bonsai tree.

Then the human must grow the bonsai first, which requires a high skill check in Knowledge (Nature):smalltongue:

But, seriously, when the spell says a tree I think it means a natural, big, grown three.

[Doug Lampert]

I imagine the idea is to use a bonsai tree.

We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.

Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?

This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.

RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.

But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.

[Clistenes]

We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.

Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?

This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.

RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.

But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.

I think you would use the stats of a tiny animated object but giving it a constitution stat. Other people says that you should use the physical stats of a treant, as Liveoak, but I think the most correct thing is to use an animated object as a model.

Anyway, I think a bonsai wouldn't count as a tree. We only call the bonsais "trees" for cultural reasons, but if you found that in nature you wouldn't call it a tree.

EDIT: I found the definition of tree "In botany, a tree is a perennial woody plant with a single main trunk taller than about 2 metres, with xylem tissue in the trunk and branches that continues to enlarge during the life of the plant by the process of secondary growth."

[Urpriest]

We have the stats for an animated tree or an awakened tree.

Just which rulebook gives the stats for a Bonsai Tree and says it's targetted as a tree?

This is a build using RAW as it's justification, you don't get to declare a thing exists unless you can point to it in a rulebook. If it isn't the size of a tree as found in the monster manual or stated in it's stat block in some source in use to be targettable by spells that target trees then it isn't available to awaken as a tree.

RAW builds need to follow RAW. This doesn't.

But even if I conceaded the existence of this made up item with no RAW justification, and even if I then conceaded that it's a legitimate target for the spell despite the spell not saying that made up plants are such targets, and even if I conceeded that symbiotic can use made up creatures that are less than their natural size (like using an infant efreet and claiming to get it's wish and full adult mental abilities at smaller size) then I'd still need to be convinced that the now awakened bonsai will let anyone KEEP it a bonsai tree by drastically overpruning now that it's awakened and mobile. Good luck with that.

There are no stats for trees, period. Awakened trees gain animated object stats, and animated objects exist from Tiny up to Colossal, so all that the RAW says on that score is that a tree must be in that size range. What is the typical size of an Awakened Tree? Huge? Gargantuan? We have no way of knowing, short of examining real trees.

As for objecting to pruning, remember, the tree is part of the PC now. It does whatever the PC wants it to do. Familiars and the like have reason to be DM-controlled, but in this case it's literally the same creature due to how the Symbiotic template works. That said, pruning might do damage, which would be a problem. Also, probably it won't grow past Tiny during the typical matter of months it takes an adventurer to go 1-20.

[Venger]

the tree is part of the PC now

don't you mean treeC? (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

as far as maximized empowered's order of operations it is indeed the max +1/2 normally rolled result (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) so will be somewhere between 19 and 27.

you're playing in a weird game. honestly, I didn't know that symbiotic was a template until reading this thread. best of luck to resolving this situation, I don't think I have further rules clarifications that haven't already been mentioned.

[toapat]

don't you mean treeC? (http://instantrimshot.com/classic/?sound=rimshot)

as far as maximized empowered's order of operations it is indeed the max +1/2 normally rolled result (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#maximizeSpell) so will be somewhere between 19 and 27.

you're playing in a weird game. honestly, I didn't know that symbiotic was a template until reading this thread. best of luck to resolving this situation, I don't think I have further rules clarifications that haven't already been mentioned.

Symbiote is a template, Awaken isnt

[Tvtyrant]

Trees actually go fairly frequently into the colossal category (like redwoods), or even colossal+ (largest tree ) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindsey_Creek_tree). That would be the coolest symbiote of all time.

[ericgrau]

By RAW they can't do it at all because there is no listed LA. But you can decide what you think is a fair LA and then let the player play it.

As a rule of thumb I'd say 4 int or 4 AC is worth about an LA. But note that physical abilities and mental abilities don't combine well. So you should base LA on the higher of the two, plus only a little more to account for the other. Likewise for multiple mental stats since most casters only use 1.

IMO:
Empowered Maximized Awakened medium tree

+2 strength, +12 intelligence, +12 wisdom, +12 charisma
+4 natural armor
Hardness 5 (for most purposes: DR 5/-, and reduced damage from energy attacks as well)
Speed 30 ft.
Slam 1d6 + 1.5 str mod
Constrict 1d6 + 1.5 str mod
Darkvision 60 ft., low light vision
Plant Type
2 racial hit dice: d8s, 2 + int skill points, +1 BAB, +3 fort/+0 ref/+0 will
2 LA


Yes -4 caster levels hurts a lot but save DCs similar to +12 caster levels are very nice and so are the defenses. Especially plant immunities. In a high optimization game I might say 1 LA though. I went with a medium tree because I assume the player wants a caster. Larger trees would add more racial hd, but hey whatever he wants.

[Sutremaine]

Anyway, I think a bonsai wouldn't count as a tree. We only call the bonsais "trees" for cultural reasons, but if you found that in nature you wouldn't call it a tree.
You can very rarely find natural bonsai, though they're pretty huge compared to the bonsai you see in garden centres.

If it's not a tree, what is it?

[Urpriest]

By RAW they can't do it at all because there is no listed LA.
snip

You misread the OP. It's referring to a character with an awakened tree as a guest using the symbiotic creature template, not just playing such a tree outright.

[nedz]

You can very rarely find natural bonsai, though they're pretty huge compared to the bonsai you see in garden centres.

If it's not a tree, what is it?

Bonsai are man made, but you can get very small trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salix_herbacea). They're usually referred to as shrubs though, so YMMV.

[Tvtyrant]

Bonsai are man made, but you can get very small trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salix_herbacea). They're usually referred to as shrubs though, so YMMV.

Yeah, the entire point of Bonsai is to shape a plant so that it is an almost identical copy of the adult version shrunk down. A natural bonsai would be a dwarf plant, and isn't really the same.

[Clistenes]

You can very rarely find natural bonsai, though they're pretty huge compared to the bonsai you see in garden centres.

If it's not a tree, what is it?

A plant, maybe a shrub, maybe a bush, but not a tree unless it's big enough. You wouldn´t call an apple tree sprout that is only a few weeks old and a few inches tall a tree; the same goes for an old stunted apple tree that is only a few inches tall.


I found the definition of tree "In botany, a tree is a perennial woody plant with a single main trunk taller than about 2 metres, with xylem tissue in the trunk and branches that continues to enlarge during the life of the plant by the process of secondary growth.·

And anyway, I think they intended the spell to work only for real, big trees; otherwise they would have allowed its use for any plant (what would be the mechanical difference between a cabbage and a bonsai?).

[ericgrau]

You misread the OP. It's referring to a character with an awakened tree as a guest using the symbiotic creature template, not just playing such a tree outright.

Whoops.

Well "I saw this on a forum somewhere" should have been a big clue to say "no". The only reason it's online is because it's exploiting a loophole.

Theoretically it does seem to work because the awakened creature's type is plant. You could always awaken a sapling to get size tiny. It might not be a typical tree but it is still a tree and the spell doesn't seem to have any special age restrictions.

I think the reason for restricting the spells to trees is primarily fluff. Druids have a lot of tree spells. But it also prevents certain animated objects forms of movement and special attacks. And prevents potential issues figuring out how it works on plants with very complicated shapes. What do you do with a sentient 10 foot tall flower? A 20 foot long vine? It's pretty easy to figure out how a tree might move like an animal tho.

[EpsilRon]

What do you do with a sentient 10 foot tall flower?

Give it a handlebar mustache and a monocle and have it "speak" in an upper class british accent. Make it as smug and sarcastically catty as possible.

[Tvtyrant]

You know, an Epic level Druid could cast an Intensified spell, which would maximize and then double the scores. 36 Int is pretty dang good.

[toapat]

You know, an Epic level Druid could cast an Intensified spell, which would maximize and then double the scores. 36 Int is pretty dang good.

beat you to that a while ago.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I've played a character with the Symbiotic Creature template using a maximized empowered awakened guest plant and have posted about it here before, so it's possible the OP's player saw one of my posts and got the idea from that.

I would note, however, in case they "forgot" the original context, that this was "perfectly acceptable" for a highly-optimized noncaster who was using and abusing several other high-power and possibly cheesy things (bloodline IL stacking and Item Familiar being two of them) and who was in a party that included a Tainted Scholar necromancer, a DFI sublime chord/ur-priest, an Ubermount-style arcane heirophant, and a Spell-to-Power erudite. It was also fairly grounded in the world's flavor, since the DM had already established an order of martial artists and divine casters that worshiped evil gods of self-perfection and discovery by hybridizing creatures, grafting their members, awakening plants, and so forth.

This build idea, or a Symbiotic Creature in general, isn't the kind of thing you drop on a normal game, particularly if you're trying to get one by the DM and you're the kind of player who just copies builds you read about on a forum. I'd veto the player's idea unless he's able to make his character fit in well with the group and show that it won't overshadow anyone else, but from the description in the OP I doubt that's the case.