Bluff, Bluff, Bluff to the Right and Left

[Palanan]

First, to my players: no. Just no.



So, I have a couple questions about bluffing, one each for a PC and NPC in my campaign. Oddly enough (and I didn't plan this) they're both beguilers:


1. The NPC beguiler is a running villain whose original cover was blown, and he's developing a new cover identity as a druid. Is there any conceivable way he could bluff an actual druid into thinking he's one of them? He'd need at least a few words of Druidic, but is that stretching Bluff a little too far?

2. The PC beguiler is an elf native to the Moonshaes, where arcane casters aren't always welcome, so he passes himself off as a bard. (Not as contradictory as it seems, since bards are lionized in the Moonshaes.) Can he use a Bluff check instead of a Perform check, maybe helped along by Ghost Sound? And could one Bluff check cover an entire evening's performance, if he really had to?
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[toapat]

1: only so long as he can avoid the very easy to screw him over with "Ok, so become a Wolf"

2: Yes, he can

[Jungian]

He could bluff a Druid into believing he is a fellow Druid, but not by speaking Druidic. It's a secret language know only by Druids, so without being one there is conceivable way of the beguiler knowing the language. I don't think Druids instantly began speaking Druidic when they encounter another druid, I always imagined it being only spoken during the most sacred of rituals. Druids also have a high wisdom score, so his lies would need to be well crafted.

He is a beguiler using any of his image spells can make for a perfectly suited performance.

[Slipperychicken]

Good to hear the Beguiler survived. I was rooting for him :smallsmile:

1a. "Listen, it's been a rough day. I blew through all my Wildshapes and some moron strapped a breastplate to me so I can't use my powers till I get an Atonement".

1b. "I traded magic for wilderness lore" (pretend as though he took ACFs to trade out his magic-stuff).


2. Bards are arcane casters :smallconfused:. Passing as a Bard won't help there.

[nedz]

If the Druid is wise then he might be caught out :smallamused:

He doesn't speak Druidic, as has been pointed out.
If he casts any spells then a Spellcraft check might tell the Druid that he cast a an arcane spell.
He might make some ideological gaff.
The Druid will probably have Woodland Stride and Trackless Step, so this might give him away if he meets the Druid in the forest.


Everything else is down to the Bluff roll.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
Good to hear the Beguiler survived. I was rooting for him.

I was astounded. They had him at the point of a knife...and then they let him go.

Not only that, but they tried to cast Charm Person on him, to make him more amenable to going elsewhere. He made his save and shrugged it off...but being a slippery one, he fooled them into thinking he'd been charmed, and then immediately set about following them.


Originally Posted by Slipperychicken
Bards are arcane casters. Passing as a Bard won't help there.

Actually in the Moonshaes it will, because of the local culture. They're extremely suspicious of anything that smacks of wizardry or sorcery, but they don't consider bards to be in the same category. In the Moonshaes, bards are revered and gladly welcomed, so passing as a bard is a good call.

Also, your "1a" is hilarious. That's definitely the line he'll be taking. Druids of Mielikki are common on the mainland, but the druids in the Moonshaes are very traditional. ("You touched metal?! --To the sweat lodge with you!")


Originally Posted by Jungian
I don't think Druids instantly began speaking Druidic when they encounter another druid, I always imagined it being only spoken during the most sacred of rituals.

Well, I've always seen Druidic as a living language rather than a ritual one, and in my campaigns druids speak it among themselves whenever they meet. This poses a real challenge for my villainous beguiler. He can talk his way around most issues (thanks to Slipperychicken's talking points :smalltongue:) but Druidic will be a major obstacle.

The other druid would give him a greeting in Druidic, and the beguiler might repeat it and try to bluff his way through, but after that he'd be on thin ice indeed. The "wounded bird" approach is probably best (out of spells, out of wildshapes, tricked into wearing metal, etc.) but he'd need a reeeeeeeally good reason not to be explaining all this in Druidic.

My only hope here is that, wisdom or no, druids usually don't put a lot of effort into Sense Motive. The beguiler, meanwhile, has a +15 Bluff mod, so he might just get lucky.
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[The Random NPC]

Perhaps, rather than "joining" a official circle, he "became" a druid naturally. That is he "learned" his powers and abilities from nature itself and therefore doesn't know Druidic. After all, what use does nature have with language.

[Deophaun]

Well, I've always seen Druidic as a living language rather than a ritual one, and in my campaigns druids speak it among themselves whenever they meet. This poses a real challenge for my villainous beguiler. He can talk his way around most issues (thanks to Slipperychicken's talking points :smalltongue:) but Druidic will be a major obstacle.
Tounges. Obstacle removed.

[nedz]

Bonus Languages
...
A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.

Druidic has its own alphabet.

Tongues
...

This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature, whether it is a racial tongue or a regional dialect. The subject can speak only one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages. Tongues does not enable the subject to speak with creatures who don’t speak. The subject can make itself understood as far as its voice carries. This spell does not predispose any creature addressed toward the subject in any way.
Well that is debatable.

[toapat]

Assuming that you are allowing Knowledge Checks to identify other druids, all it comes down to is a simple checklist to break any bluff asto whether you can perform certain classes. Mundanes are easy (you can just cherrypick classes to lie about. just claim to be a Rogue), Arcanes slightly less, while Divines are near impossible as a result of their class restrictions.

[Deophaun]

Well that is debatable.
Hardly."Whether white, black, or purple, we're all God's Children." "What about red?"

"Whether it is a racial tongue or regional dialect" does nothing to narrow the "language of any intelligent creature," as the phrasing is not exclusive. If it read "As long as it is a racial tongue or regional dialect," then the fact that druidic was a secret language would matter, because that is exclusive phrasing. If it left out the "language of any intelligent creature" you could then say that "racial tongue or regional dialect" was a comprehensive list. But, that phrase is there, so you can't.

Now, if you wish to argue that druids are not intelligent... It is a dump stat for them, after all :D

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Deophaun
Tounges. Obstacle removed.

Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. :smalltongue:)

However, he does have Detect Thoughts and Comprehend Languages, and between the two of those he might just squeak by. He has the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick, so he might put one over on the druid.

[nedz]

Well I think that it could be interpreted either way, but its probably not worth debating, especially since it would appear to be entirely academic.

Now, if you wish to argue that druids are not intelligent... It is a dump stat for them, after all :D
Cast Touch of Idiocy before you shake their hand :smallsmile:

[Norin]

Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. :smalltongue:)



Advanced learning and some houseruling would work fine there. It's supposed to be limited to Ill\Ench spells, but i do not see why a Divination spell like that would break the game.

Or by all means, UMD + Tongues wand or even a Tongues potion?
Cheap stuff that would be plausible and doable.

[Palanan]

Well, nice in theory, but at the moment the beguiler is in a small fishing town on a backwater island where even a first-level scroll would be a huge wondrous deal. A wand of Tongues would be worth more than every fishing-boat in the harbor, and probably most of the homes as well.

And as it happens, the beguiler has been...relieved of his gadgets, magic items and other gear, courtesy of the PCs, so all he's got are his quick wits, his smooth tongue, and the spells he woke up with.

He's been having a pretty tough week, but he will get that halfling. Somehow, some day, he'll get that halfling.

:smallbiggrin:

[Hecuba]

Hm. I'm actually not seeing Tongues on the beguiler spell list. (No tounges, either. :smalltongue:)

However, he does have Detect Thoughts and Comprehend Languages, and between the two of those he might just squeak by. He has the Conceal Spellcasting skill trick, so he might put one over on the druid.

If you can find a way to understand Druidic (fairly easy with magic), they you simply need a reason not to speak it.

A good option here is for the NPC to simply pass as mute. Then you're only tripped up by writing.

I would suggest finding a some way to communicate without speaking.
My preference would be to have custom magic item made and learn Drow Sign language.

Continuous ring of Nystul's Magical Aura & Comprehend Languages is safely under 10k gold (what with the 1st level spells and all).

EDIT, given the limited item availability post:
If you can pass the Comprehend Languages without the Magical Aura, Comprehend Languages is actually on your list.

[toapat]

If you can find a way to understand Druidic (fairly easy with magic), they you simply need a reason not to speak it.

A good option here is for the NPC to simply pass as mute. Then you're only tripped up by writing.

I would suggest finding a some way to communicate without speaking.
My preference would be to have custom magic item made and learn Drow Sign language.

Continuous ring of Nystul's Magical Aura & Comprehend Languages is safely under 10k gold (what with the 1st level spells and all).

EDIT, given the limited item availability post:
If you can pass the Comprehend Languages without the Magical Aura, Comprehend Languages is actually on your list.

here is the problem. druids have a spell for muteness.

on the other hand, last i knew druidic was not allowed as a written language

[Hecuba]

here is the problem. druids have a spell for muteness.

Really? Last I checked, muteness isn't covered by spells in either direction: it's not even on the delineated list for heal. Blindness, deafness, assorted diseases, but not muteness.

I am, however, away from my books, so I cannot check. Is it in spell compendium?

[nedz]

on the other hand, last i knew druidic was not allowed as a written language

Well it has its own alphabet (see my quote from the SRD in #9) so it would be a bit silly if you couldn't then write it.

[toapat]

Really? Last I checked, muteness isn't covered by spells in either direction: it's not even on the delineated list for heal. Blindness, deafness, assorted diseases, but not muteness.

I am, however, away from my books, so I cannot check. Is it in spell compendium?

part of Regenerate's ability is to restore ruined/lost organs and limbs.


Well it has its own alphabet (see my quote from the SRD in #9) so it would be a bit silly if you couldn't then write it.

The restrictions of using druidic also apply to the written language.

[Hecuba]

part of Regenerate's ability is to restore ruined/lost organs and limbs.

That would seem to depend on whether the mutism was caused by physical damage or simply the natural lack of vocal chords.

Additionally, mutism can also be psychologically triggered.

[Palanan]

Druidic certainly has a written form in my game, and the beguiler would have even less of a chance at faking it than the spoken language.

Probably the best he can manage is to use a combination of Comprehend Languages and Detect Thoughts to guess at the meaning of certain basic words--both what the druid is speaking, and what the druid might expect to hear in reply--and then try bluffing for all he's worth to survive a basic conversation.

Charm Person, if he succeeds, might at least let the druid be more charitable about the beguiler's lapses in the language. ("Poor fellow, being bashed on the head with a metal shield certainly affected his declensions of the plural nominative....") With a good enough Bluff check, a little creative slurring might work wonders.

[toapat]

That would seem to depend on whether the mutism was caused by physical damage or simply the natural lack of vocal chords.

Additionally, mutism can also be psychologically triggered.

nothing in core that druids get would fix a Vow of Silence

born without vocal cords i would expect druids to see as lost/ruined organs.