PDA

View Full Version : Forbidden Techniques of the Nine Swords [3.5, ToB]



TheGeckoKing
2012-11-18, 03:51 PM
Forbidden Techniques

While the Temple of Nine Swords still stood, there were a multitude of techniques taught in its esteemed halls, all discovered by the grand martial adept known as Reshar. Of course, there were not only 9 disciplines, but Reshar had his reasons for not teaching them at his school. Some were deemed too specific or chaotic, other schools were simply not available to Reshar and others still were for specific champions of the immortal outsiders.

Also, there were the Forbidden Schools, known to Reshar and reviled.

How Forbidden Techniques Work
Forbidden Techniques are obtained by specific study on lost tomes, pupillage under shady masters and the throes of insanity. In game terms, this means spending a feat on the School. Once they do so, the Martial Adept automatically adds each maneuver in the Forbidden School to their list of maneuvers known when they have the minimum initiator level requires to initiate them. Likewise, Stances are added to Stances Known in the same way.

Example: Sam is a Swordsage 3 who takes Bloody Handed Adept as their feat choice at 3rd level. In doing so, Sam automatically adds Bloody Handed Spike (1st level) and Bloody Handed Rending (2nd level) to their list of maneuvers known. Upon gaining his 5th level in Swordsage, Sam adds Bloody Handed Spasm (3rd level) to his list of maneuvers known, and so on.

The question many will be thinking is of course, "Why don't all martial adepts learn the forbidden schools?". The answer is because nothing good has ever become of it - sure, you become more powerful, but is power worth a gruesome death and worse? Bloody Handed Initiates end up tearing themselves into ribbons, The Nine Steps to Damnation lead exactly where you think they do, the Schismatic Cerebrexes all end up insane, and even the holy sounding Martyr's Mercy ends up with the initiate going to live with the angels before they're grey.
You still want to go on? Well, so be it......

The Nine Bloody Hands
Once upon a time, when the world was still young, the Obyriths had just been put down at the Fields of Pesh, Asmodeus had only just fallen and reality was still a new idea, there lived an immortal Ogre Magi called Kamaha. Amongst his brethren he was the only one who was of a martial bent, and soon taught himself the ability to take advantage of his hyperactive metabolism to do extraordinary things, like punching fragments of bone into the faces of his brothers and even slamming into them so hard that both parties exploded on the spot. All fun was had amongst all, and when Kamaha wrote down these techniques for prosperity before he ascended to another plane of existance, many people soon picked them up to emulate his macabre fun. To great detriment, unfortunately.
What people have forgotten throughout the ages is that if you don't have the ability to regrow flesh and bone in seconds, then punching your finger bones into an enemy's face seems like almost...a waste. Still, stupidity is the preserver of many things, and so it still stands that people follow old Kamaha's techniques even to this day.

New Feats

Structural Regeneration
Prerequisites: Regeneration or Fast Healing ability
Benefit: At the end of each round, you automatically heal 1 ability point of ability damage per round, plus 1 point of ability burn per minute if you have Regeneration.

Bloody Handed Initiate
Prerequisites: Initiator Level 3rd, ability to recover maneuvers, has a Constitution Score.
Benefit: At the appropriate initiator levels, the Bloody Handed Initiate adds each of the Nine Bloody Hand maneuvers to their list of maneuvers known. The maneuvers are;
1st - Bloody Handed Spike
2nd - Bloody Handed Rending
3rd - Bloody Handed Spasm
4th - Bloody Handed Persistance
5th - Bloody Handed Misery
6th - Bloody Handed Headsmash
7th - Bloody Handed Backbreaker
8th - Bloody Handed Bone-Remover
9th - Bloody Handed Kamaha
Special: If you would be immune to the ability damage/burn incurred from any of these maneuvers when initiating them, then the maneuver automatically fails (you still waste the action used). Any hit point damage incurred from using these maneuvers ignores any method of damage prevention (Damage Reduction, Immunities, etc.), but can be healed as just normal hit point damage.

Maneuvers:

Bloody Handed Strike
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first technique a Bloody Handed Initiate learns is also one that summarizes the core principle - blood for blood. With one swift blow, you smash your opponents bones, breaking your own hands in the process.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then you automatically take 4 points of damage, and the melee attack deals an extra 2 points of Con Damage.

Bloody Handed Rending
Level: Initiate 2 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

With a grandiose flourish, you twist your wrist into a knot, flaying the gash you create with your blow and creating a bleeding wound.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then you automatically take 1 point of Dex Damage, and your opponent takes 6 points of damage every time they make a Standard or Move action in the next round (the damage is cumulative).

Bloody Handed Spasm
Level: Initiate 3 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Free Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: None

As the hammer (literally) falls, you twist your back into a knot in order to avoid the crushing blow, taking momentary pain for continued survival.

When you would make a Reflex Save, you may initiate this boost as a free action, and take any amount of Con Damage at the same time (Min 1). You gain an Untyped Bonus on that Reflex Save equal to 4 times the amount of Con Damage you took as part of this maneuver.

Bloody Handed Persistance
Level: Initiate 4 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

A relatively new addition to the school, you adopt a rigid stance that maximizes the blood flow in your body and accelerates the healing in an attempt to mend your ruined form, even at the cost of your momentary dexterity.

While in this stance, you heal 1 point of Damage to any ability of your choice, chosen at the end of each round. Also, you gain Fast Healing equal to 1/2 of your Initiator Level (rounded down). In return for this, your precise form imposes a -6 penalty to all Reflex Saves made while in this stance.

Bloody Handed Misery
Level: Initiate 5 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Swift Action
Range: 30ft
Target: All Creatures within 30ft of the initiator
Saving Throw: Will Save

With a swift flick, you tear strips out of your face and shock your enemies into fleeing.

As a swift action, you may activate this stance, which deals 1 point of Con and Cha Burn to you. In return, all enemies within 30ft of you must make a Will Save (DC 15 + Cha Ability Modifier) or become Panicked for 3 rounds.

Bloody Handed Headsmash
Level: Initiate 6 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

With a swift jump and a thwack, you slam your head into your opponent's head, and both of you stand around, dazed.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single unarmed attack, with a +5 bonus to the attack roll. If it hits, both you and the opponent take 2 points of Int Burn, you become Dazed for 1 round and the victim becomes Dazed for 1d4 rounds.

Bloody Handed Backbreaker
Level: Initiate 7 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

You'd rather break your back than bend your knee....so why not break their back while you're at it! With one giant charge, you charge at your opponent, leap and slam down on the opponent so strongly your break both their backs and your arms.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee charge attack. If you strike an opponent with this attack, when you automatically take 2 points of Dex and Con Burn, and your opponent takes 4 points of Dex, Str and Con Burn, and has all movement speeds reduced to 0ft for 2 rounds.

Bloody Handed Bone-Remover
Level: Initiate 8 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Nearing the heights of perfection, you can carry such strength that you can remove your opponent's entire skeleton (or the equivalent) with a single blow!
Just remember to pick up your dislodged bones on the way out.

As part of this maneuver, you make make a single melee attack. If it succeeds, then you blast your opponents skeleton out of their body, and remove all traces of structure from their body. Also, kiss goodbye to any sort of good health you used to have. Upon succeeding, you take 1 point of Con, Str and Dex Burn, and your victim take 2d4 points of Con, Dex and Str Damage.

Bloody Handed Kamaha
Level: Initiate 9 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The final strike. The legendary strike. Named after its creator, the slayer of a thousand men, and bringer of doom.
By the way, say hello to Pelor when you meet him, OK?

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then both you and the victim die in a gory explosion, rending both bodies into mince meat, requiring a Miracle or Wish spell to bring back either party to the realm of the living.


The Nine Steps to Damnation

A venture for fools and lunatics, Martial Initiators still go to the devils of Baator for power even at the cost of their immortal souls. Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is no easy task and requires you to embark on a task that even Reshar himself would not be set for the task. Setting foot on the road to Damnation requires the Martial Adapt to first contact an Evil Outsider of a CR equal to or higher than their Character Level and offer them your soul in exchange for your 1st step onto the correct path. The 1st step. The step of Wrath grants the Martial Adapt the feat "Walker of the Nine Sins" which allows for them to learn from The Nine Steps to Damnation discipline. It also grants them the 1st Maneuver.

New Feat

Walker of the Nine Sins
Prerequisites: Initiator Level 3rd, ability to refresh maneuvers
Benefits: At the appropriate initiator levels, the Walker of the Nine Sins adds each of the Nine Steps to Damnation maneuvers to their list of maneuvers known. The maneuvers are;
1st - Wrath of the Overlord
2nd - Greed of the Miser
3rd - Yawning Chasm of Gluttony
4th - From Sin to Sword
5th - Grasping Grab of Envy
6th - Alluring Aura of Lust
7th - Megalomaniac Rebuke of Pride
8th - Slumber of Sloth
9th - The Final Step
Special: Each of these maneuvers grant the Walker of the Nine Sins a certain amount of points to their Corruption Rating.
For the purpose of these nine maneuvers only, your Corruption Score is treated as one half your initiator level or equal to the actual score, which ever is lower (Minimum of 1).
If at any point the Walker gains 9 Corruption Points then their alignment automatically drops one step towards Evil (Good becomes Neutral, Neutral becomes Evil) and when the character dies their soul automatically goes to the Nine Hells, requiring a Wish or Miracle to return. Each day the Walker has 6 or more Corruption Points, they must make a Will Save or knowingly commit an Evil action towards a friend, family member or loved one. Depending on the nature of this action, this may cause further alignment changes. The DC for this Will Save is equal to 10 + Highest Level of Maneuver Known + Initiator's Corruption Point Total.

Maneuvers:

Wrath of the Overlord
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first step towards Damnation is often the hardest to perform, but let go of your fears my child, for that very first step will make you envious of the God's themselves...

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
As part of this maneuver you perform a single melee attack. If it hits the subject immediately takes 1d4 times your total corruption rating in damage.

Greed of the Miser
Level: Initiate 2 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The whispers in your head grow, and grow as you ready your blade. Wait, is that a diamond? Can't you see it?! LOOK! SEE IT SPARKLE AND GLEAM! TAKE IT! TAKE IT NOW!

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain one point to your Corruption Rating.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, you automatically make a Sleight of Hand check to steal one of your opponent's items which are in view, with a bonus to the check equal to twice your Corruption Rating. You may not opt to decline making this check.

Yawning Chasm of Gluttony
Level: Initiate 3 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: Will Save

Come along, little mortal, all you have to do is open your mouth! Wider! Wider!
WIDER!
*crack*
There we go......

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver after declaring to make a full attack action. If you do, you gain a Primary Bite Attack for one round that deals Xd4 damage, where X is your Corruption Rating.

From Sin to Sword
Level: Initiate 4 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Yesssss.......Feel the hate flow into you.....and through you....NOW KILL THEM!


Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
While in this stance, you gain a profane bonus to Attack Rolls equal to 1/2 your Corruption Score.

Grasping Grab of Envy
Level: Initiate 5 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Oh, but look at that sword. Think how much better it would look in your hands......

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver as part of a single melee attack against an opponent holding a weapon in one or both of their hands. If it hits, then you and the opponent swap weapons automatically, each holding the other's weapon after the attack. All effects of holding a different weapon (too small/big, Holy/Unholy weapon causing negative levels, etc.) still apply to each of the affected parties.

Alluring Aura of Envy
Level: Initiate 6 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Oh, but how you have DREAMED of being loved! Now, all you have to d is let go of morality, and the world will be at your feet.....

Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
While in this stance, a creature attacking you must make a DC 10 + Corruption Rating + 1/2 Initiator Level or else their attack fails and they become dazed by you for one round. A creature can only be affected by this stance's effect once per encounter.

Megalomaniac Rebuke of Pride
Level: Initiate 7 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: Will Save

How dare they attack you! Can they not see perfection in their midst?! SHOW THEM YOUR TRUE POWER!

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver as part of making a saving throw. You gain a bonus to your saving throw equal to your Corruption Score.

Slumber of Sloth
Level: Initiate 8 (Stance)
Initiation Action: One Free Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Special (See Below)

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz............

Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
When you enter this stance, you immediately fall to the ground asleep, unconscious and unable to make any action other than to wake up. However, while in this stance you gain DR 50/Epic and Good, a +20 Profane Bonus to AC and immunity to any effect that would require you to make a save. In order to leave this stance and wake up you must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10 + Triple your Corruption Score. You may only make one Will Save equal round, and gain a +1 Bonus to the Will Save for every minute you are in this stance.

The Final Step
Level: Initiate 9 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Well, it's time to pay up on what's owed.........t'was nice knowing you, anyway.

You may initiate this maneuver as part of a single melee attack. If this attack hits, both you and your attacker are immediately consumed in an explosion of hellfire and damned to the Nine Hells, transformed into Lemures and rendered forever dead to all concerned, except to the most powerful Epic Spellcasters.

-=--=-=-=-=-=-

Other Stuff
Well, there's the basic shell of the idea. I guess I'm probably not the first to try this (Or am I?), but I thought it was a nice idea. Also, apologies for the fluff - I'm just not good at writing it, so in a way I didn't really try to. Other than that, I just need to put my thoughts into gaming terms, which should happen soon enough.
Also, any ideas for other Forbidden Schools?

Prime32
2012-11-18, 04:20 PM
I guess I'm probably not the first to try this (Or am I?)Nope. (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6375) :smalltongue:
(steal away)

Amechra
2012-11-18, 06:17 PM
You could do something with my Unrepentant Hunter discipline (I never finished it, sadly; it was based off of Love's Pain and Vile damage, as a really sadistic discipline that, well, was all based around finding someone and making them pay.)

JoshuaZ
2012-11-18, 08:43 PM
Also note that my Narrow Bridge discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) has a somewhat similar idea although it is more necromancy focused. I could see something connecting these two disciplines in some way, and I find the idea of paying a single feat to get access to all the maneuvers an interesting mechanic which may be of questionable balance.

TheGeckoKing
2012-11-18, 08:54 PM
So, the first draft of the Nine Bloody Hands is up. I fully expect you to tear into it (Ha! I made a funny!), as it's the first time I've ever meddled with ToB beyond the occasional PrC.


You could do something with my Unrepentant Hunter discipline (I never finished it, sadly; it was based off of Love's Pain and Vile damage, as a really sadistic discipline that, well, was all based around finding someone and making them pay.)

Hrrrrrrm. I like the idea of a discipline that requires a Frenzied Berserker type rage, in return for tearing them to shreds when you catch them. Or something like that, anyway.


Also note that my Narrow Bridge discipline (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113982) has a somewhat similar idea although it is more necromancy focused. I could see something connecting these two disciplines in some way, and I find the idea of paying a single feat to get access to all the maneuvers an interesting mechanic which may be of questionable balance.

Oooo, a Discipline that involves killing yourself mostly to death for Necromantic Powers intrigues me (Wait, was that a logic leap to far?). Anyway, I don't think the "One Feat, 9 maneuvers" is too bad, unless I go insane and make a feat that grants Wish - The Maneuver.

JoshuaZ
2012-11-19, 12:52 AM
Ok. So the immediate worries I have are that a) Someone can use magic to heal ability damage from this discipline. A level 1 binder dip into Naberius for example could make the price a lot less steep. At an even cheasier level, one who is immune to ability damage (say an undead) could use these maneuvers.

I'd suggest therefore a) You can't use the maneuvers if something renders you immune to the damage b) ability damage from these maneuvers cannot be healed other than by natural rest.

Bloody Handed Kamaha should probably allow a fortitude save and only have the result occur if they fail the save.

I wonder if there should be a stance associated with this discipline, but I'm not sure what it would do. Overall, I like the idea a lot.

Xefas
2012-11-19, 01:47 AM
ability damage from these maneuvers cannot be healed other than by natural rest.
Ability Burn? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#abilityBurn)


Hrrrrrrm. I like the idea of a discipline that requires a Frenzied Berserker type rage, in return for tearing them to shreds when you catch them. Or something like that, anyway.

There's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059) from the monster, unfortunately.

TheGeckoKing
2012-11-19, 01:25 PM
Ok. So the immediate worries I have are that a) Someone can use magic to heal ability damage from this discipline. A level 1 binder dip into Naberius for example could make the price a lot less steep. At an even cheasier level, one who is immune to ability damage (say an undead) could use these maneuvers.

Derp, I forgot about the Undead. I'll make a point about them.


I'd suggest therefore a) You can't use the maneuvers if something renders you immune to the damage b) ability damage from these maneuvers cannot be healed other than by natural rest.

So, Hellfire Clause and Ability Burn? Makes sense.


Bloody Handed Kamaha should probably allow a fortitude save and only have the result occur if they fail the save.
Hrrrrrrm. The idea was a "I'm taking you with me" attack, so I'm not sure about that.


I wonder if there should be a stance associated with this discipline, but I'm not sure what it would do. Overall, I like the idea a lot.

The stance (Bloody Handed Persistence) is to slightly alleviate the effects of the ability damage in return for a useless Reflex Save.


There's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059) from the monster, unfortunately.

Oh, well. I guess that saves me some work. :smalltongue:

Kazyan
2012-11-19, 01:49 PM
There's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176059) from the monster, unfortunately.

Just popping in to say that the [Common Sense] subtype is just...the best thing. It makes me happy.

DaTedinator
2012-11-19, 02:30 PM
I have a conceptual problem with the Bloody Hands maneuvers. You describe the maneuvers as being invented by an Ogre Mage, so he can just regenerate all the damage he deals to himself - which, by the way, is a concept that I love. The trouble is, only one of the maneuvers does HP damage - with any of the others, an ogre mage would be doing just as much damage to himself as a human would. You should consider either changing the fluff behind the school itself, or changing the maneuvers to deal HP damage.

On that note, you should specify how the HP damage in the first maneuver interacts with regeneration, DR, and that sort of thing.

Bloody Handed Bone-Remover, I'm not sure what's flavor text and what's actual crunch. Does using it automatically render one of my limbs inert, or is that just fluff to describe the ability burn?

TheGeckoKing
2012-11-19, 02:55 PM
I have a conceptual problem with the Bloody Hands maneuvers. You describe the maneuvers as being invented by an Ogre Mage, so he can just regenerate all the damage he deals to himself - which, by the way, is a concept that I love. The trouble is, only one of the maneuvers does HP damage - with any of the others, an ogre mage would be doing just as much damage to himself as a human would. You should consider either changing the fluff behind the school itself, or changing the maneuvers to deal HP damage.


*points to the Structural Regeneration feat* :smallwink:


On that note, you should specify how the HP damage in the first maneuver interacts with regeneration, DR, and that sort of thing.

Gotcha. By the way, if I don't make it clear in the edit, the damage is meant to ignore any method of damage prevention, but can be healed normally.


Bloody Handed Bone-Remover, I'm not sure what's flavor text and what's actual crunch. Does using it automatically render one of my limbs inert, or is that just fluff to describe the ability burn?

For now it's just fluff, and I'll modify it to be a bit less misleading. However, if I DID change it to disable a limb, how much buffing/changing do you think it would need?

DaTedinator
2012-11-19, 06:35 PM
*points to the Structural Regeneration feat* :smallwink:

Bahaha, yup, missed that completely.

That's probably too good of a feat, though, especially combined with this style. I'd drop it to healing 1 ability point per round if you have Fast Healing, plus 1 ability burn per minute if you have regeneration. Otherwise, anyone with that feat can just completely ignore ability damage from pretty much any source.


Gotcha. By the way, if I don't make it clear in the edit, the damage is meant to ignore any method of damage prevention, but can be healed normally.

Cool.


For now it's just fluff, and I'll modify it to be a bit less misleading. However, if I DID change it to disable a limb, how much buffing/changing do you think it would need?

If you did change it... Well, really, it probably needs changing as it is. 4d4 to each physical stat is often going to be enough to completely paralyze someone, or even kill them. I think the amount of damage dealt is fine if it completely disables your arm, but if you just take the ability burn, it should probably just deal 2d4 to each stat (or maybe 4d4 to one).

TheGeckoKing
2012-11-19, 06:44 PM
Bahaha, yup, missed that completely.

That's probably too good of a feat, though, especially combined with this style. I'd drop it to healing 1 ability point per round if you have Fast Healing, plus 1 ability burn per minute if you have regeneration. Otherwise, anyone with that feat can just completely ignore ability damage from pretty much any source.

You know, that sounds much better. Consider it done.


If you did change it... Well, really, it probably needs changing as it is. 4d4 to each physical stat is often going to be enough to completely paralyze someone, or even kill them. I think the amount of damage dealt is fine if it completely disables your arm, but if you just take the ability burn, it should probably just deal 2d4 to each stat (or maybe 4d4 to one).

Gah! I keep forgetting that this is going to be used every other round if it's too powerful. I'll lower the damage (I've not seen a limb damage ruleset that annoyed me in some way).

Arcanist
2012-12-26, 10:16 PM
When are you going to resume work on this? :smallconfused: I'd love to see the other Forbidden Techniques :smallsmile:

TheGeckoKing
2012-12-26, 11:09 PM
Honestly? I've got Writer's Block. I know more-or-less what I want the various schools to do, but can't think of appropriate penalties.


The Nine Steps to Damnation - I want the Initiator to wrack up some sort of "Damnation score" for every encounter they fight in a Forbidden Stance of the school, but I'm not exactly sure what penalties to inflict upon the initiator for a high score. I was thinking using the Taint system actually, but it seemed a bit heavy handed for a Devil's method of corruption.

Schismatic Cerebrex - I was going to go with mental damage at one point, but then I thought it would be too much like the Nine Bloody Hands. Sanity subsystem, maybe?

Martyr's Mercy - Yeah, I have NO idea what I'm doing with this one.

In short, if I get ideas on the appropriate penalties, then I could probably whip up an initial draft of my ideas.

Arcanist
2012-12-27, 12:55 AM
The Nine Steps to Damnation - I want the Initiator to wrack up some sort of "Damnation score" for every encounter they fight in a Forbidden Stance of the school, but I'm not exactly sure what penalties to inflict upon the initiator for a high score. I was thinking using the Taint system actually, but it seemed a bit heavy handed for a Devil's method of corruption.

Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is no easy task and requires you to embark on a task that even Reshar himself would not be set for the task. Setting foot on the road to Damnation requires the Martial Adapt to first contact an Evil Outsider of at least CR 9 and offer them your soul in exchange for your 1st step onto the correct path. The 1st step. The step of Wrath grants the Martial Adapt the feat "Walker of the Nine Sins" which allows for them to learn from The Nine Steps to Damnation discipline. It also grants them the 1st Maneuver.

Example Maneuver:


First Step: Wrath of the Overlord
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first step towards Damnation is often the hardest to perform, but let go of your fears my child, for that very first step will make you envious of the God's themselves...

Upon first initiating this maneuver you immediately gain 1 point to your corruption rating upon obtaining 9 your soul becomes beyond redemption and your final reword becomes the Nine Hells.

As part of this maneuver you perform a single melee attack. If it hits the subject immediately takes 1d10 damage times your total corruption rating.

Corruption Rating rules are detailed in the Fiendish Codex II page 30 Corrupt Acts

I recommend this have 9 Maneuvers with each one having a prerequisite of each other to advance further, granting an additional Corruption Rating for performing them the first time and becoming more powerful with your Corruption rating. Eventually you get a Martial Adapt that traded away his entire soul and any form of redemption for power... Perhaps when he is being tormented for all eternity he can lament his folly :smallamused:


Schismatic Cerebrex - I was going to go with mental damage at one point, but then I thought it would be too much like the Nine Bloody Hands. Sanity subsystem, maybe?

The Sanity subsystem would actually work fairly nicely for Schismatic Cerebrex. My idea was to use the Mindflayer as an example where you slowly become more and more alien in mindset and eventually become a Far Realm Abomination forgetting everything that you were and becoming a true monstrosity... Idk... I'd like to make an evolving template for the Schismatic Cerebrex (that is if you give me the honor too).


Martyr's Mercy - Yeah, I have NO idea what I'm doing with this one.

With this you can honestly go the way of the Bloody Hand, your final maneuver kills you and turns you into a Risen Martyr (BoED). I can honestly think of no greater punishment then making someone take levels in a worthless trash class :smalltongue: Better yet, have the player into taking Sacred Vows to learn the Maneuvers (and make them have prerequisites for each other so that they can't skip out on the path). I swear, I hate when people focus on certain aspects of Disciplines, but completely ignore other aspects :smalltongue:

Nightgaun7
2012-12-27, 01:16 AM
Why don't you at least start posting ideas for the maneuvers and such? Even if it's just what you want to do, it'll give us something to help you with

TheGeckoKing
2012-12-27, 04:18 PM
Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is no easy task and requires you to embark on a task that even Reshar himself would not be set for the task. Setting foot on the road to Damnation requires the Martial Adapt to first contact an Evil Outsider of at least CR 9 and offer them your soul in exchange for your 1st step onto the correct path. The 1st step. The step of Wrath grants the Martial Adapt the feat "Walker of the Nine Sins" which allows for them to learn from The Nine Steps to Damnation discipline. It also grants them the 1st Maneuver.

Example Maneuver:


First Step: Wrath of the Overlord
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first step towards Damnation is often the hardest to perform, but let go of your fears my child, for that very first step will make you envious of the God's themselves...

Upon first initiating this maneuver you immediately gain 1 point to your corruption rating upon obtaining 9 your soul becomes beyond redemption and your final reword becomes the Nine Hells.

As part of this maneuver you perform a single melee attack. If it hits the subject immediately takes 1d10 damage times your total corruption rating.

Corruption Rating rules are detailed in the Fiendish Codex II page 30 Corrupt Acts

I recommend this have 9 Maneuvers with each one having a prerequisite of each other to advance further, granting an additional Corruption Rating for performing them the first time and becoming more powerful with your Corruption rating. Eventually you get a Martial Adapt that traded away his entire soul and any form of redemption for power... Perhaps when he is being tormented for all eternity he can lament his folly :smallamused:



I'm stealing ALL of that, 'cause it's all awesome! :smallbiggrin:


The Sanity subsystem would actually work fairly nicely for Schismatic Cerebrex. My idea was to use the Mindflayer as an example where you slowly become more and more alien in mindset and eventually become a Far Realm Abomination forgetting everything that you were and becoming a true monstrosity... Idk... I'd like to make an evolving template for the Schismatic Cerebrex (that is if you give me the honor too).

You know, that's not a bad idea. If I could make ONE tweak to the idea, could you instead make a Symbiont that grants the maneuvers as bonus maneuvers? The idea I have is that every time you use the maneuvers, the symbiont eats away more of your psyche until it fully takes over and controls your body. The feat itself would grant "ownership" of this unremovable Symbiont.


With this you can honestly go the way of the Bloody Hand, your final maneuver kills you and turns you into a Risen Martyr (BoED). I can honestly think of no greater punishment then making someone take levels in a worthless trash class :smalltongue: Better yet, have the player into taking Sacred Vows to learn the Maneuvers (and make them have prerequisites for each other so that they can't skip out on the path). I swear, I hate when people focus on certain aspects of Disciplines, but completely ignore other aspects :smalltongue:

I have it! I'll add those special components to the maneuvers that the sanctified spells have - you need to refrain from certain actions for a certain amount of time to initiate the maneuvers, and every time you use the maneuver you rack up Judgement points. Enough points and the angels take you to Celestia and have you ascend to Angelhood or something (You become an NPC, anyway).

Anyway, I'll do what Nightgaun7 says and give you something to look at.

bobthe6th
2012-12-27, 04:45 PM
Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is no easy task and requires you to embark on a task that even Reshar himself would not be set for the task. Setting foot on the road to Damnation requires the Martial Adapt to first contact an Evil Outsider of at least CR 9 and offer them your soul in exchange for your 1st step onto the correct path. The 1st step. The step of Wrath grants the Martial Adapt the feat "Walker of the Nine Sins" which allows for them to learn from The Nine Steps to Damnation discipline. It also grants them the 1st Maneuver.

Example Maneuver:


First Step: Wrath of the Overlord
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first step towards Damnation is often the hardest to perform, but let go of your fears my child, for that very first step will make you envious of the God's themselves...

Upon first initiating this maneuver you immediately gain 1 point to your corruption rating upon obtaining 9 your soul becomes beyond redemption and your final reword becomes the Nine Hells.

As part of this maneuver you perform a single melee attack. If it hits the subject immediately takes 1d10 damage times your total corruption rating.

Corruption Rating rules are detailed in the Fiendish Codex II page 30 Corrupt Acts

I recommend this have 9 Maneuvers with each one having a prerequisite of each other to advance further, granting an additional Corruption Rating for performing them the first time and becoming more powerful with your Corruption rating. Eventually you get a Martial Adapt that traded away his entire soul and any form of redemption for power... Perhaps when he is being tormented for all eternity he can lament his folly :smallamused:


See, I just start thinking a paladin forced to make a deal for his soul to save others from evil/death. Would be a fun addition to a OOTS like campaign. As one of the heroes sees he can't beat the BBEG with just his sword, he seeks great power at any price. Hilarity ensues!

TheGeckoKing
2012-12-27, 05:19 PM
The Nine Steps to Damnation are up! Go progress!

bobthe6th
2012-12-27, 05:41 PM
Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is no easy task and requires you to embark on a task that even Reshar himself would not be set for the task.

task task task task spam task eggs spam task task...
Embarking upon The Nine Steps to Damnation is difficult, and requires you to walk a path that Reshar himself wouldn't brave.

PEACH
2012-12-27, 06:42 PM
I'll have a critique of individual maneuvers later, but at the moment I feel like a feat that gives you 9 maneuvers known is incredibly powerful. The corruption based maneuvers are also all absurd, simply because if you don't care about corruption then you've got completely uncapped damage potential and attack bonuses at all times; an evil PC becomes near invincible. The maneuvers need caps, and the ninth level manuever needs to be changed, simply because no save autokills are bad enough, and making them unressurectable seems silly if they're "merely" damned to hell.

Arcanist
2012-12-27, 07:15 PM
I'll have a critique of individual maneuvers later, but at the moment I feel like a feat that gives you 9 maneuvers known is incredibly powerful. The corruption based maneuvers are also all absurd, simply because if you don't care about corruption then you've got completely uncapped damage potential and attack bonuses at all times; an evil PC becomes near invincible. The maneuvers need caps, and the ninth level manuever needs to be changed, simply because no save autokills are bad enough, and making them unressurectable seems silly if they're "merely" damned to hell.

The user is damned the 9 hells as well so it's more of a suicide tactic and the cap is automatically 9 due to the Corruption Rating rules.

These attacks cap out at 9d4 damage for an average of 18 damage (not as much damage as I'd like, but it certainly gets the job done). Personally, Slumber of Sloth is a little... Hmm... WELL if you want to go to sleep, just go into that stance and you are immune to anything that would harm you. I say buff up Wrath of the Overlord to d8 damage and you have a simply, but noticable increase in power.

Personally, I would make grabing grasp of envy more along the lines of:

Example Maneuver

Grasping Grab of Envy
Level: Initiate 5 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Disarm check
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Oh, but look at that sword. Think how much better it would look in your hands......

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver as part of a single disarm check (with a competence bonus equal to your Corruption Rating) against an opponent holding a weapon in one or both of their hands. If you succeed, then you disarm and steal the opponents weapon from their hands. The item appears in your hand and you immediately drop the weapon in your hands. Your opponent may pick up your discarded weapon as a standard action.

Regardless, this is GeckoKing's discipline and I really don't consider myself knowledgeable in the Sublime way to actually homebrew an entire Discipline :smallredface:

Having said that I will gladly make a Symbiont that implements a self-preservation in it's host. The problem I'm coming across is how to justify having a Symbiont destroy the minds of it's host... I'm thinking along the lines of the Venom Symbiote where it makes the subject increasingly more aggressive and hostile, but grants them phenomenal strength and power (Rage into Frenzy, with a Maneuver (stance) that allows the Symbiont to feed off that rendering you calmed (as Calm Emotion).

On a side note: please be kind enough and remove my name from the Nine Steps of Damnation, I was merely spring boarding off of your idea :smallsmile:

On a side note of a side note: PLEASE for the love of Asmodeus, change the name of the final Maneuver for the Nine Steps of Damnation to something else. Devil's don't bluntly tell your "U DUN GOOF'D" until it's too late and a name like that will obviously be a strong hint. I recommend Final step: Nine-Fold Path into Perdition, but eh... just a recommendation :smallredface:

PEACH
2012-12-27, 08:18 PM
The user is damned the 9 hells as well so it's more of a suicide tactic and the cap is automatically 9 due to the Corruption Rating rules.

You are incorrect. In fact, the rules even explicitly say your corruption rating can be above 9.


Any lawful character who dies with a corruption rating of 9 or higher...

So yes, corruption is uncapped. Effectively, given the rules, 9 is a "cap" because there's no penalty for being above it or specific rules for removing corruption points above 9... but corruption is completely and totally uncapped.

As for a suicide attack... so? It doesn't matter if it's a suicide attack, no save kills are not good design, and for that matter, neither are explicitly suicide attacks. Especially because you can, again, easily just put these into the hands of evil characters. It's a maneuver that's only use is to either instagib a PC or to instagib a final boss, which simply isn't entertaining or on the same scale as other ninth level maneuvers.

Anyway, full maneuver criticisms ahead. Bear in mind, again, 9 maneuvers for a feat is generally just too good if the maneuvers are even somewhat good. I'd at least break these up into two or three feat chains.


Bloody Handed Strike
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first technique a Bloody Handed Initiate learns is also one that summarizes the core principle - blood for blood. With one swift blow, you smash your opponents bones, breaking your own hands in the process.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then you automatically take 10 points of damage, and the melee attack deals an extra 2 points of Con Damage.

Fairly poor. You're taking more damage than they are for a long while, and even when you aren't the extra damage is completely unexceptional. One point off fortitude saves isn't entirely useless, and you can try to target people who already have less HP than you so the tradeoff isn't as bad, but by the time you're facing things with 11+ HD this maneuver will be mostly irrelevant even though it now "wins" the trade.


Bloody Handed Rending
Level: Initiate 2 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

With a grandiose flourish, you twist your wrist into a knot, flaying the gash you create with your blow and creating a bleeding wound.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then you automatically take 1 point of Dex Damage, and your opponent takes one point of Con Damage every time they make a Move or Standard Action in the next round (the damage is cumulative).

Meh. Again, 2 con damage is really not much. You'd be far better off just making a full attack or using a strike with bonus damage or really anything.


Bloody Handed Spasm
Level: Initiate 3 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Free Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: None

As the hammer (literally) falls, you twist your back into a knot in order to avoid the crushing blow, taking momentary pain for continued survival.

When you would make a Reflex Save, you may initiate this boost as a free action, and take any amount of Con Damage at the same time (Min 1). You gain an Untyped Bonus on that Reflex Save equal to 4 times the amount of Con Damage you took as part of this maneuver.

This is pretty nice.


Bloody Handed Persistance
Level: Initiate 4 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

A relatively new addition to the school, you adopt a rigid stance that maximizes the blood flow in your body and accelerates the healing in an attempt to mend your ruined form, even at the cost of your momentary dexterity.

While in this stance, you heal 1 point of Damage to any ability of your choice, chosen at the end of each round. Also, you gain Fast Healing equal to 1/4 of your Initiator Level (rounded down). In return for this, your precise form imposes a -8 penalty to all Reflex Saves made while in this stance.

Really, really weak. If it were fast healing equal to your initiator level, it might be useful, but as is you're nearly guaranteeing you're taking full damage from reflex-save imposing attacks, which (assuming the enemy doesn't just ignore your sudden weakness) will negate a lot of the benefits you'd get. The ability damage on top of that just makes it even worse.

I guess it's not bad because you can essentially say "I fully heal after every combat," but that's not that big of a deal at seventh level.


Bloody Handed Misery
Level: Initiate 5 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: Will Save

With a swift flick, you tear strips out of your face and shock your enemies into fleeing.

As a swift action, you may activate this stance, which deals 1 point of Con and Cha Burn to you. In return, all enemies within 60ft of you must make a Will Save (DC 17 + 1/2 Initiator Level + Cha Ability Modifier) or become Panicked for 3 rounds.

This isn't a stance, so fix the wording. The save is also nonstandard and very high, so I'd make it a standard save if you really want to give such a powerful AoE CC (that'd be 15+Cha modifier). I'd honestly consider this a higher level maneuver than fifth, since three rounds of panic in a 60 ft AoE is absolutely massive at any point in the game unless everybody is fear immune.

For once, the ability also doesn't cost you far more than you gain from it, so that's nice.


Bloody Handed Headsmash
Level: Initiate 6 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

With a swift jump and a thwack, you slam your head into your opponent's head, and both of you stand around, dazed.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single unarmed attack, with a +5 bonus to the attack roll. If it hits, both you and the opponent take 2 points of Int Burn, you become Dazed for 1 round and the victim becomes Stunned for 1d4 rounds.

This isn't bad. I wouldn't use "daze" for the description if it stuns the enemy, though, and I'd honestly make the enemy get dazed simply because it's the more powerful condition (stun has very limited benefits over Daze and immunity to stunning is massively more common).


Bloody Handed Backbreaker
Level: Initiate 7 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

You'd rather break your back than bend your knee....so why not break their back while you're at it! With one giant charge, you charge at your opponent, leap and slam down on the opponent so strongly your break both their backs and your arms.

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee charge attack. If you strike an opponent with this attack, when you automatically take 2 points of Dex and Con Burn, and your opponent is Paralysed for 4 rounds and takes 4 points of Dex, Str and Con Burn.

Saveless instakill ability is a bad thing. Make this ninth with a save of some kind or get rid of it. (If you don't think autoparalyze is an instakill, you are incorrect).


Bloody Handed Bone-Remover
Level: Initiate 8 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Nearing the heights of perfection, you can carry such strength that you can remove your opponent's entire skeleton (or the equivalent) with a single blow!
Just remember to pick up your dislodged bones on the way out.

As part of this maneuver, you make make a single melee attack. If it succeeds, then you blast your opponents skeleton out of their body, and remove all traces of structure from their body. Also, kiss goodbye to any sort of good health you used to have. Upon succeeding, you take 2 points of Con, Str and Dex Burn, and your victim take 2d4 points of Con, Dex and Str Damage.


This is silly. Like, the maneuver itself does very limited damage (again, blocked if they're immune to ability damage), and is probably weaker overall than all of your maneuvers of fifth level or above, but the flavor implies that you're essentially instantly killing them. Hell, at the level this comes online, you're more likely to kill them by simply attacking them and dealing more damage, though the idea of being able to rip level 1 commoner's skeletons out without really inconveniencing them is pretty funny.


Bloody Handed Kamaha
Level: Initiate 9 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The final strike. The legendary strike. Named after its creator, the slayer of a thousand men, and bringer of doom.
By the way, say hello to Pelor when you meet him, OK?

As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, then both you and the victim die in a gory explosion, rending both bodies into mince meat, requiring a True Resurrection, Miracle or Wish spell to bring back either party to the realm of the living.

As I've said with the suicidal attack in the other school: It's a bad idea. There's no design space where "I instantly kill a foe and kill myself to do it" works in a tabletop RPG. If you give it to enemies, PCs get gibbed with no way to react; if you give it to players they're either never going to use it or only going to use it to blow up the final boss, so it doesn't occupy an interesting design space at all.

Overall: Many of these abilities are very weak, primarily due to overvaluing ability damage to a huge extent. However, all of your abilities that grant crowd control are very powerful, possibly to an extreme extent. Again, one feat for all of this would be too much, but half of the maneuvers are basically useless because attacking for almost no damage besides constitution damage is simply not a good idea.

Onto the next:


Wrath of the Overlord
Level: Initiate 1 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The first step towards Damnation is often the hardest to perform, but let go of your fears my child, for that very first step will make you envious of the God's themselves...

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
As part of this maneuver you perform a single melee attack. If it hits the subject immediately takes 1d4 damage times your total corruption rating.

Even assuming the 9d4 cap listed previously, this is pretty absurd at first level. Mediocre later on, but 18 damage on average as a first level maneuver (even if you have to get it at level 3) is still pretty good for a couple levels before your damage massively outclasses it. Uncapped it's obviously just broken.


Greed of the Miser
Level: Initiate 2 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

The whispers in your head grow, and grow as you ready your blade. Wait, is that a diamond? Can't you see it?! LOOK! SEE IT SPARKLE AND GLEAM! TAKE IT! TAKE IT NOW!

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain one point to your Corruption Rating.
As part of this maneuver, you make a single melee attack. If it hits, you automatically make a Sleight of Hand check to steal one of your opponent's items which are in view, with a bonus to the check equal to twice your Corruption Rating. You may not opt to decline making this check.

Sleight of Hand is broken in general. Sleight of Hand's only opposed DCs are spots to see it, and there's actually no sleight of hand check given to take an item off an opponent if it isn't small, so it's really impossible to judge this. If everything is just DC 20 it's absurd (and it's still pretty absurd if you can the magical artifact necklace during the fight but not the sword), but this needs to be written such that it's actually well defined.


Yawning Chasm of Gluttony
Level: Initiate 3 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: Will Save

Come along, little mortal, all you have to do is open your mouth! Wider! Wider!
WIDER!
*crack*
There we go......

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver after declaring to make a full attack action. If you do, you gain a Primary Bite Attack for one round that deals Xd4 damage, where X is your Corruption Rating.

Again: with 9 corruption it's pretty nice, with uncapped corruption it's absurd.


From Sin to Sword
Level: Initiate 4 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Yesssss.......Feel the hate flow into you.....and through you....NOW KILL THEM!


Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
While in this stance, you gain a profane bonus to Attack Rolls equal to 1/2 your Corruption Score.

+infinite to attack is crazy. +5 to attack at 9 corruption is nice and very strong for fourth level, but not the best stance ever.


Grasping Grab of Envy
Level: Initiate 5 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Oh, but look at that sword. Think how much better it would look in your hands......

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver as part of a single melee attack against an opponent holding a weapon in one or both of their hands. If it hits, then you and the opponent swap weapons automatically, each holding the other's weapon after the attack. All effects of holding a different weapon (too small/big, Holy/Unholy weapon causing negative levels, etc.) still apply to each of the affected parties.

I can't really say if this is strictly inferior to strike of greed, but it's likely pretty weak relative to it. I'd honestly swap the maneuvers around and make this the second level manuever, since "swapping weapons, when you're a PC and likely have a good one" is almost always worse than "chance to take the opponent's anything away without giving him my +whatever axe"


Alluring Aura of Envy
Level: Initiate 6 (Stance)
Initiation Action: Swift Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance

Oh, but how you have DREAMED of being loved! Now, all you have to d is let go of morality, and the world will be at your feet.....

Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
While in this stance, a creature attacking you must make a DC 10 + Corruption Rating + 1/2 Initiator Level or else their attack fails and they become fascinated by you for one round. A creature can only be affected by this stance's effect once per encounter.

The save on this is really high (19/infinite +1/2 initiator level is usually going to be higher than using a stat modifier), but I'm more concerned that it doesn't really do anything. Besides interrupt the action, the fascination effect is instantly broken because they're still in a hostile fight. Maybe make it daze? Unless -4 on skill checks is such a big deal, that'd be at least useful.


Megalomaniac Rebuke of Pride
Level: Initiate 7 (Boost)
Initiation Action: One Immediate Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Saving Throw: Will Save

How dare they attack you! Can they not see perfection in their midst?! SHOW THEM YOUR TRUE POWER!

Upon first initiating this maneuver, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
You may initiate this maneuver as part of making a saving throw. You gain a bonus to your saving throw equal to your Corruption Score.

+infinite/+9 to a single saving throw isn't bad. Seeing as you can essentially autopass some with Diamond Mind, this really isn't that powerful even if you get +infinite.


Slumber of Sloth
Level: Initiate 8 (Stance)
Initiation Action: One Free Action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Special (See Below)

ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz............

Upon first entering this stance, you immediately gain 1 point to your Corruption Rating.
When you enter this stance, you immediately fall to the ground asleep, unconscious and unable to make any action other than to wake up but completely immune to all effects both positive and negative. In order to leave this stance and wake up you must make a Will Save with a DC equal to 10 + Triple your Corruption Score. You may only make one Will Save equal round, and gain a +1 Bonus to the Will Save for every minute you are in this stance.

Yeah, this is absurd. It's the only one that doesn't benefit from +infinite to corruption, granted, but "total invincibility" isn't something you should be able to get at-will. Hell, honestly the strongest use of this discipline might well be to have a corruption score of 0 and just use this stance as often as possible while waking up on your turn, doing everything, and then knocking yourself back out. You could eventually win purely by Warblade refresh-attacking your way to victory.


Off to Hell We Go!
Level: Initiate 9 (Strike)
Initiation Action: Standard
Range: Melee Attack
Target: One Creature
Saving Throw: None

Well, it's time to pay up on what's owed.........t'was nice knowing you, anyway.

You may initiate this maneuver as part of a single melee attack. If this attack hits, both you and your attacker are immediately consumed in an explosion of hellfire and damned to the Nine Hells, transformed into Lemures and rendered forever dead to all concerned, except to the most powerful Epic Spellcasters.

See the complaint about the ninth from the other discipline.

Arcanist
2012-12-27, 08:57 PM
So yes, corruption is uncapped. Effectively, given the rules, 9 is a "cap" because there's no penalty for being above it or specific rules for removing corruption points above 9... but corruption is completely and totally uncapped.

Cool so we add a cap too it, make a clause saying that once you take the Walker of the Nine feat you only gain corruption rating from performing the Maneuvers and call it a day :smallsigh:


As for a suicide attack... so? It doesn't matter if it's a suicide attack, no save kills are not good design, and for that matter, neither are explicitly suicide attacks. Especially because you can, again, easily just put these into the hands of evil characters. It's a maneuver that's only use is to either instagib a PC or to instagib a final boss, which simply isn't entertaining or on the same scale as other ninth level maneuvers.

It's an example of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokeYourArmPunchingOutCthulhu). Performing any of the FT require sacrifice and ultimately will require you to throw away your life for power. In the hands of an Evil Character (or monster or whatever) you are still fighting with as sharp and as deadly of a double-edged sword as anyone else using it, unless of course you run your Goblins as suicide bombers with the idea that their lives are meaningless because they are just Goblins. :smalltongue:

It's like having a weapon that can destroy the entire world when you are at war. You can use it, but in doing so, you would be destroying yourself as well. Either way as a player I sure as hell wouldn't suicide bomb knowing full well that I can't come back :smalleek:

PEACH
2012-12-27, 09:13 PM
Cool so we add a cap too it, make a clause saying that once you take the Walker of the Nine feat you only gain corruption rating from performing the Maneuvers and call it a day :smallsigh:

But that isn't how they were written. Also, you'd require more rewriting for gaining corruption from using the maneuvers, because you only gain corruption from using the maneuvers once, so your corruption score would always be quite low even if you didn't get rid of it.

The easiest solution is just to impose a cap on how much your corruption rating can affect the maneuvers, and not entirely negate a previous system and say that you suddenly don't gain corruption from casually murdering people.



It's an example of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokeYourArmPunchingOutCthulhu). Performing any of the FT require sacrifice and ultimately will require you to throw away your life for power. In the hands of an Evil Character (or monster or whatever) you are still fighting with as sharp and as deadly of a double-edged sword as anyone else using it, unless of course you run your Goblins as suicide bombers with the idea that their lives are meaningless because they are just Goblins. :smalltongue:

It's like having a weapon that can destroy the entire world when you are at war. You can use it, but in doing so, you would be destroying yourself as well. Either way as a player I sure as hell wouldn't suicide bomb knowing full well that I can't come back :smalleek:

Linking a trope has nothing to do with how terrible it is from a design perspective as an ability you can pick up very easily. If you want some kind of big, self sacrificing, but guaranteed to work ability, that is much better suited to being a plot point in your campaign or a specific macguffin for a fight than an ability you can just pick up by taking a single feat.

Again, nothing you've stated has removed the point that the only purpose either ability has is either to instagib a PC or to instagib a final boss. It isn't an interesting design space, for the same reason that most no-save just die spells aren't interesting. And hell, considering one of the disciplines already has a no-save just die maneuver (the seventh level maneuver), it isn't even powerful relative to other maneuvers in the same discipline.

So if you want some sort of ultimate forbidden maneuver that can instantly kill the final boss in exchange for a sacrifice, cool. That isn't bad from a narrative sense, but I'm not talking about narratives, I'm talking about gameplay. And from a gameplay sense, "no save kills" are stupid.

Arcanist
2012-12-27, 09:53 PM
The easiest solution is just to impose a cap on how much your corruption rating can affect the maneuvers, and not entirely negate a previous system and say that you suddenly don't gain corruption from casually murdering people.

Wondrous. Progress is made :smallsmile:



Linking a trope has nothing to do with how terrible it is from a design perspective as an ability you can pick up very easily. If you want some kind of big, self sacrificing, but guaranteed to work ability, that is much better suited to being a plot point in your campaign or a specific macguffin for a fight than an ability you can just pick up by taking a single feat.

You'd be right if that trope didn't reference the initial purpose of the design, which is to obtain phenomenal power with sacrifice.

That would be a plot point and would be nothing else. It's liking explaining away someone dying by saying "A Wizard did it". Not only is it insulting to the reader and the players, but insulting to your own character as a writer. Now actually having a mechanical maneuver that performs that exact thing is something else since now you can explain why it can be done by pointing to a referable section instead of just saying "It just happens".


Again, nothing you've stated has removed the point that the only purpose either ability has is either to instagib a PC or to instagib a final boss. It isn't an interesting design space, for the same reason that most no-save just die spells aren't interesting. And hell, considering one of the disciplines already has a no-save just die maneuver (the seventh level maneuver), it isn't even powerful relative to other maneuvers in the same discipline.

These are more interesting then a No-save just die since with most No-save just die spells the enemy is dead and all you lost was spells,power points, or having to refresh a maneuver. With this you are actually losing something. To be more accurate, this would be a No-save Suicide Bombing. What makes this interesting is the idea that you have the option to completely and utterly destroy an opponent at any time, but you have to ask yourself "Is it really worth it?".

I do agree that some of the Maneuvers of Nine Bloody Hand need some work, but admittedly lack enough expertise to offer any aid. I will say that it needs methods of overcoming a creature with immunity to Ability Damage (like the Undead or Constructs) since that appears to be the basic premise of the discipline and speaking of NBH around that level (I'm assuming you are referring to the 8th and not the 7th) most of the things you can encounter (that give you XP) have well over 22 Constitution OR have flat out immunity to ability damage.

In case you are referring to the 7th Maneuver then I must agree with you since it is more or less a Stun-Lock (maybe if it were 1 round and that doesn't stack with previous uses or something... Hmm...), but regardless, it is not a No-Save just die. It is however a No-Save just suck, dying as a result of sucking is an entirely different matter.


So if you want some sort of ultimate forbidden maneuver that can instantly kill the final boss in exchange for a sacrifice, cool. That isn't bad from a narrative sense, but I'm not talking about narratives, I'm talking about gameplay. And from a gameplay sense, "no save kills" are stupid.

I'd have to agree with you here, No-saves just die are stupid, however not when the consequence are actually real interacting mechanics. Blowing yourself up to resolve a situation isn't bad gameplay as much is running around with Ditherbombs in a cave is bad gameplay.

I guess I won't even reference Forcecage and all the interesting Shenanigans it can do :smalltongue:

PEACH
2012-12-27, 10:06 PM
In case you are referring to the 7th Maneuver then I must agree with you since it is more or less a Stun-Lock (maybe if it were 1 round and that doesn't stack with previous uses or something... Hmm...), but regardless, it is not a No-Save just die. It is however a No-Save just suck, dying as a result of sucking is an entirely different matter.

Paralyzation is death. You're CDG'd and you die because nothing can make the fortitude save for a CDG even if you survive the hit point damage. It may take another action, but you've got four rounds and most combat at that level simply will not last that long unless the enemies are high save high HP types and you aren't throwing about a lot of optimized spells... in which case combat still only really lasts one round per opponent you have to personally paralyze.



I'd have to agree with you here, No-saves just die are stupid, however not when the consequence are actually real interacting mechanics. Blowing yourself up to resolve a situation isn't bad gameplay as much is running around with Ditherbombs in a cave is bad gameplay.

I guess I won't even reference Forcecage and all the interesting Shenanigans it can do :smalltongue:

The problem is that making it a "no save, both of us die" doesn't add any interesting gameplay to it. You can easily write in a mechanic for sacrificing yourself for the final battle, but making it into a maneuver isn't the way I would recommend; glass cannons are prevalent enough at high level without guaranteed death for both parties.

EDIT: Also, the "no save, just die, but you can be true-rezzed" maneuver doesn't even really have an effective penalty, since you're really only paying 25k for it.

TheGeckoKing
2012-12-28, 03:57 PM
Right, there's too much to individually respond to, but I can make a few general points;

9 Steps - I swore that corruption capped out at 9. I'll go fix that, anyway. The 8th level stance will get some tweaking so that it's not so lop-sided. The 9th level maneuver name will also be changed.
Bloody Hands - If Paralyzation is such a problem, then I have an idea on how to tweak it. I'll do some other tweaking on the lower level maneuvers, as well.