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Tanuki Tales
2012-11-18, 10:20 PM
So, I'm sitting down to do some campaign setting crafting and a question started to wiggle it's way to the forefront of my brain:

How does one explain the total integration of multiple races into one socioeconomic complex without the use of slavery (either current or long abolished) or without all said races really being subspecies of one another and are fully aware of it or divine intervention or other "quick and easy" potentially plothole filled explanations? And I don't mean just one city where you have Humans, Orcs and Dwarves playing buddy buddy like Sharn or Anhk-Morpork and their are still racial cities everywhere, but a complete integration across all nations.

raspberrybadger
2012-11-18, 11:40 PM
One force promoting (very) partial integration would be economics. Different races would have comparative advantage in producing different things. In short, there is an incentive to specialize, then trade between races. That's more efficient if you don't have all the elves on the west side of the continent, and all the elves on the east side. If humans can make money by moving to places with few humans, some will do it.

Also, some settings have gods whose worshippers span multiple races. For some members of those races, religion, wars of good and evil, and so on, might be stronger forces than race.

There could be other stuff going on. Needing to band together against monsters, wildlife, invasion from other planes of existence, and so on.

Of course, as the modern world shows, large scale integration doesn't always mean there isn't racism, races preferring to do various things with their own kind, and so on.

Xefas
2012-11-18, 11:54 PM
Once, long ago, the many people of the world were scattered.
Some were actively hostile to one another, others held together be a tenuous peace born of mutual disinterest.
They went about their lives, concerned with their petty personal trifles, completely unaware of what lurked Outside.

From the endless darkness without, an alien creature, beautiful and monstrous, scanned the bleak heavens with ten thousand terrible eyes, and caught sight of a jewel worthy of its notice.
It gazed down on the world, and saw its fractured people, so weak, and so unsuspecting.

While it could have ended things there, devouring the morsel with its thousand shrieking mouths, the monster would not waste such a treat - swallowing it raw when it could be further prepared with the most delicious application of chaos and misery.
And so, it hatched a plan, as it had done so with countless worlds before.

Through the cities and towns and communities of the world, unseen cultists of the monster strode, sowing war and paranoia, shattering what little trust each nation of the world had in one another.
The skies darkened, blood ran in every street, and the end was nigh.

The monster rejoiced, and it drew itself out of the inky nothingness from which it had been spectating, slavering from a thousand jowls, keening from a thousand throats.
It descended, and every man, woman, and child stood in horrified silence as everything came crashing down.

That would have been the end. That should have been the end.
But it wasn't.
At the last moment, the world met the monster's ten-thousand tentacles with a million swords, and drowned out its thousand cries with a million voices.
Elves stood with Dwarves, Minotaurs, Naga, Harpy, and far stranger - a clenched fist to declare this world their own.

The conflict was long and brutal.
Centuries passed, a period of carnage that shook the earth to its very foundations, and saw generations of every race be born, fight shoulder-to-shoulder with one another, lives in one another's hands, die fighting, and be replaced by a new generation that would do the same.

On and on it went, until the day the monster was finally slain - or fled, say the most cynical.
By that time, the nations of the world had all but dissolved, their populations fleeing the wrath of the Outsider, or else stalking it from one corner of the world to the other and back.
Now, it was time to draw new lines, and make new nations, and laws, and peoples; to rebuild.

Of course, that was farther back than even the eldest grandfathers of the oldest elves could've remembered. And the only written records we have read like fairy tales. Maybe because they are. Probably just a lot of hot air, all things considered. But it's what I like to think - I like to think that if this world were ever in danger again...

...we'd be ready to stand together and fight.

Stubbazubba
2012-11-19, 12:03 AM
Outcasts from the several cultures begin to culminate and form their own culture on the fringe of civilization, which gradually increases in both numbers and acceptance. Perhaps they become travelling entertainers or gypsies. Something like that. They create their own historical narratives about liberty and how the mono-cultures surrounding them have squashed it in favor of easily controlled sameness. In the aftermath of a huge war, their far-flung society rises to greater prominence, and with the once-dominant nations so weak, people flee to them for help and for purpose. They become a major force and establish a homeland, which quickly becomes a center of trade and art.

The reason they were outcasts in the first place could be physical, political, religious, etc., etc. That would shape their development some.

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-19, 12:28 AM
-snip-

That....That was glorious. :smalleek:

Fhaolan
2012-11-19, 12:53 AM
To answer the question, you have to ask a more basic question. If you have a completely integrated societ, why are there multiple 'races' in the first place? What narrative purpose do they serve in your campaign world?

It's possible that the history of the world is so long that the only reason the races haven't completely blended together is because they are not interfertile. They may no longer have different cultures or languages at all, reducing the differences between the races purely statistical.

snikrept
2012-11-19, 01:32 AM
Mutualism. Species A does a trick that Species B needs. Meanwhile Species B does a trick that Species A needs. Perhaps A are great artificers while B are gifted warriors. Cities with significant populations of both A and B dominate xenophobic cities of only A or only B, until by natural selection in wars, only A-B cities of any size and power remain.

Common enemy. Species A and B tolerate each other because Species C is out to get them and would crush them individually. This has been going on for so long that the trust barriers are pretty much eliminated between A and B. If C were to vanish, A and B would probably have their own differences.

Nonintersecting goals. Species A and Species B don't compete for the same foods, don't need the same requirements for housing, etc. Maybe A lives on the ground and eats chickens and B lives in the trees above and scoops mana out of the air. Nothing to fight over, so why not live near each other and exchange ideas?

Diaspora. Once upon a time Species A conquered Species B and exiled them out of their ancestral homelands throughout the A empire as slaves. A spread cities throughout the lands, taking B with them wherever they went. Then A underwent an enlightenment and B got their freedom. However no members of B now living recall where the ancestral homelands were, and its history has passed into legend, so they go on living admixed with A as equals.

EDIT: Terraforming. Species A created Species B sometime in the distant past, so B is naturally predisposed to like A and live near them. Perhaps then A suffered a calamity (climate change? outside invaders? disease? hubris-related industrial accident?) and lost their ancient arts, so now A and B are pretty much equal tech-wise.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-19, 03:06 AM
I had an idea where, fed up with all the raiding and pillaging, several stronger nations of the traditional 'good guy' nations banded together to form an alliance to conquer the 'bad guy' races.
Surprisingly, this worked.
That's where things get a little gray. After the war, the 'bad guy' races were basically enslaved as a form of repartition. This ended about half a century ago, but most orcs, trolls, and goblins live apart on marginal land in the countryside and in the poorer sections of cities, still de facto second class citizens. It's a very advanced society magic-technology wise, especially with the discovery of the principle that allows multiple low level casters to act together as a single higher level caster, with teleportation circles built into every market town square, allowing the fast and efficient delivery of goods, people, and troops throughout the immense Imperial Republic of Valdon.
A tarnished age of gold.:smallamused:

Stubbazubba
2012-11-19, 03:13 AM
I don't think economic specialization would create an integrated society. It would lead to racial tolerance, albeit a tolerance marked by exaggerated racial stereotypes and racism, but not integration; in fact, for specialization to work, the races would have to keep themselves separate to maintain their comparative advantage. Specialization would face the races away from each other and then erect barriers to entry which would work against integration.

snikrept
2012-11-19, 04:05 AM
Agreed. It would probably be a strict caste-based society. But it would explain why they all live together instead of separated into Elfwood and Dwarvenholme and Orkreach. It might also play well with the usual pseudo-medieval D&D setting, where the son of the blacksmith is 100% guaranteed to be the next blacksmith and so forth.

Perhaps homogeneous is a better word than integrated, since the latter has all sorts of real-world baggage associated, regarding political rights.

Ravens_cry
2012-11-19, 05:13 AM
Given the number of sentient species existing in D&D and in many fantasy settings, it's actually not all that homogeneous or integrated.

Thinker
2012-11-19, 07:19 AM
So, I'm sitting down to do some campaign setting crafting and a question started to wiggle it's way to the forefront of my brain:

How does one explain the total integration of multiple races into one socioeconomic complex without the use of slavery (either current or long abolished) or without all said races really being subspecies of one another and are fully aware of it or divine intervention or other "quick and easy" potentially plothole filled explanations? And I don't mean just one city where you have Humans, Orcs and Dwarves playing buddy buddy like Sharn or Anhk-Morpork and their are still racial cities everywhere, but a complete integration across all nations.

Groups are bound together or driven apart by some sort of ideology. If you are using the fantasy races as allegories for ethnicities and races in the real world, this is relatively simple to figure out. Entire countries can be driven by an ideology such as nationalism or religion, but there are many types of ideology that can be applied. They can include ethics, politics, epistemology, legality, economy, sexuality, race and religion.

Ethics is about the assumption of what is right versus what is wrong; for example, in the fantasy nation of Merchantia it is considered correct for traders to try to price-gouge tourists and many will complain if natives try to assist a visitor.
Politics refers to either a system of government, e.g. democracy, monarchy, theocracy, or to different parties discussing how to rule, such as one group favoring a strong royal family, while another favors powerful nobility.
Epistemology is about the best way to determine the truth, such as faith versus reason.
Legality is the nature of justice, which is not quite the same thing as ethics, though they can go hand in hand. It refers to the laws (based on ethics) and the punishments for violating them. To use the Merchantia example again, while the traders feel it's not right for locals to help tourists in the trading market, there is no punishment doled out for doing so anyway.
Economy is about the best way to distribute wealth and manage economic growth. Is it better to have all wealth and property available at the whim of the king or based on the merits of the nobility/merchants.
Sexuality is about the role of the sexes in society; should men stay home to defend the homestead while women work the fields?
Race is about how to define races and whether or not races even exist; should dwarfs be considered their own race or are they simply a subgroup of gnomes?
Religion is about which religion is correct and about the merits of various religious texts and their role in society. Is the Book of Pelor complete or does it also require the Hymns of Drammon and the Prophecy of Nentai?

Zrak
2012-11-19, 07:37 AM
I'm running a campaign right now in a setting where the world is flooding continually and fairly rapidly. Anyone who doesn't want to drown gets "buddy buddy" on sufficiently high ground. Of course, it's not so much integrated in a lovey-dovey multicultural way so much as a crapsack noir world full of racism, corruption, and classism.

hymer
2012-11-19, 07:49 AM
Time will do it if there's enough of it. When I look out the windows, I see people entirely integrated that would have been considered races apart a millenium ago (well, I do when people walk by anyway). If we learn to disregard haircolour as a means of distinguishing 'race', we can certainly learn to disregard the keenness of eyesight, differing life expectancy or prominence of incisers. I'm considered part of the same ethnicity as people that are so different from me in weight or height, it's hard to believe we're the same species. Facial hair vs. clean shaven chin is a staggering difference, but we don't really think that much about it. We're used to it.

But I agree with Fhaolan. And if you really integrate everyone, they'll find some other way of grouping, based on economy, class, geography, profession, philosophy, religion... Unless they're of a kind that don't have that mindset to begin with. In that sense a lot of races are just humans in funny suits in that regard (too).

Friv
2012-11-19, 10:15 AM
An international alliance to settle a new world because your previous world is falling apart due to a magical, technological, or natural apocalypse would do the trick. Because everyone is working together, the groups become blended quite quickly, and if the individual races were working together well ahead of time new divisions are likely to be along political rather than speciest lines.

Of course, the old world would remain racialized, but it would presumably be obliterated prior to the start of the game so that's not really an issue.

Kitten Champion
2012-11-19, 01:49 PM
Many empires throughout history have been multicultural for basic practicality. One society grows into an the economic and military super-power and establishes transnational political organization in which -- over time -- forms a global mono-culture over important things like laws, language, economics, and philosophical or religious outlook. The empire allows for a degree of autonomy and democratic input by its component members -- a senate is formed which is more and more representative of the world's population as time goes by. People of all races are given freedom of mobility to live anywhere within the empire. As economic and weather conditions change, it's not uncommon to see diaspora.

Different races come to see themselves as members of the same community, racially distinct perhaps but all imperial subjects nevertheless. Eventually the empire elapses into a republic, power is decentralized, territories become more self-sufficient with advancements in technology, these territories fight to become autonomous states, the republic collapses leaving behind it thousands of years of interracial interaction. These new states form cultures all their own, national identities arise, and over time the imperial society become antiquity.

In the end you've got a world which accepts racial integration is normative, but is ultimately divided by economics and political authorities who've done their hardest to provide a distinct hegemonic culture for their society.

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-19, 03:36 PM
Everyone has made very good points and have all given me things to think on and mull over, but I wanted to address this one in particular:


To answer the question, you have to ask a more basic question. If you have a completely integrated societ, why are there multiple 'races' in the first place? What narrative purpose do they serve in your campaign world?

It's possible that the history of the world is so long that the only reason the races haven't completely blended together is because they are not interfertile. They may no longer have different cultures or languages at all, reducing the differences between the races purely statistical.

Isn't the rise of an integrated society likely to occur in a much smaller length of time than is required for the multitude of races to interbreed themselves into just one specific descendant race?

hymer
2012-11-19, 03:48 PM
Possibly. You could decide for or against it as GM, as it's a philosophical question with no equivalent in the real world.

Fhaolan
2012-11-19, 11:21 PM
Isn't the rise of an integrated society likely to occur in a much smaller length of time than is required for the multitude of races to interbreed themselves into just one specific descendant race?

Reasonably possible, but we have no real proof of that using RL models. I can't really go into further detail because that would involve not just RL politics and the like, but *current* RL politics, which is a forum no-no.

snoopy13a
2012-11-19, 11:49 PM
Isn't the rise of an integrated society likely to occur in a much smaller length of time than is required for the multitude of races to interbreed themselves into just one specific descendant race?

They might not be able to interbreed or offspring may be sterile. I'm sure half-dwarves, half-halflings, half-elf-lings, dwelves, halfaves, elforcs, dworcs, gnomelings, gnoelves, dwomes, half-gnomes, gnorcs, and orclings are in some settings, but I don't see them too often.

Tanuki Tales
2012-11-20, 11:50 AM
They might not be able to interbreed or offspring may be sterile. I'm sure half-dwarves, half-halflings, half-elf-lings, dwelves, halfaves, elforcs, dworcs, gnomelings, gnoelves, dwomes, half-gnomes, gnorcs, and orclings are in some settings, but I don't see them too often.

Fhaolan just put forth the viewpoint that an integrated society wouldn't occur until all the races had interbred (if they could) completely and I was just curious of the reasoning behind that.

EccentricCircle
2012-11-21, 05:24 AM
I agree that the distinction between race and nationality is very important. I've never really liked the idea of there being a Dwarf Nation and an Elf Nation. people move, whether through trade, war, exploration, religious expansion or any other reason. I think that most cities which aren't xenophobically isolationist will pretty quickly aquire ethnic minorities. how integrated those minorities are will vary from place to place.

In the traditional dwarven homelands which have been conquered by a powerful "Human" empire integration might be very poor. In a trade city on the silk road between a large human dominated empire and an elvish dominated one the populations might be far more mixed.

Tarrinese elves may have a strong cultural identity based on their ancient elvish traditions and religions, but would still consider themselves to be Tarrinese first and elvish second. If the neighbouring Lakrian elves were to invade then some Tarrinese elves might be torn between loyalties, but i'd expect most of them to side with their nation over their ethnicity. and of course you really get in trouble when the elves and the dwarves both believe that the city of Rune/Aestrial is their holy land for entirely different reasons.

Thinker
2012-11-21, 07:27 AM
I agree that the distinction between race and nationality is very important. I've never really liked the idea of there being a Dwarf Nation and an Elf Nation. people move, whether through trade, war, exploration, religious expansion or any other reason. I think that most cities which aren't xenophobically isolationist will pretty quickly aquire ethnic minorities. how integrated those minorities are will vary from place to place.

In the traditional dwarven homelands which have been conquered by a powerful "Human" empire integration might be very poor. In a trade city on the silk road between a large human dominated empire and an elvish dominated one the populations might be far more mixed.

Tarrinese elves may have a strong cultural identity based on their ancient elvish traditions and religions, but would still consider themselves to be Tarrinese first and elvish second. If the neighbouring Lakrian elves were to invade then some Tarrinese elves might be torn between loyalties, but i'd expect most of them to side with their nation over their ethnicity. and of course you really get in trouble when the elves and the dwarves both believe that the city of Rune/Aestrial is their holy land for entirely different reasons.

History has often conflated race, culture, and ethnicity. This is compounded by the idea in many fantasy games that race = species. Additionally, if you think of the elves as being the Aesir and the Tuatha de Danaan being something completely different, it becomes easy to differentiate culture based on race.