Full attack Mechanics

[Tylorious]

How does full attack work with two-weapon fighting and feats like double shot.

[Cranthis]

How does full attack work with two-weapon fighting and feats like double shot.

Well, reading the player's handbook helps here. But its actually quite simple.

Two weapon fighting gives you an extra attack, at your best BAB.

[Darius Kane]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting

[Ashtagon]

Well, reading the player's handbook helps here. But its actually quite simple.

Two weapon fighting gives you an extra attack, at your best BAB.

Pretty much this.

Note that TWF does not get you iterative attacks with your second weapon. No matter how many iterative attacks you have with your primary weapon, you still only get a single attack with your secondary weapon.

There is a separate feat chain to let you have additional attacks with your second weapon. That is quite an extraordinary level of feat tax.

Many people house rule that the second weapon automatically gets the same number of iterative attacks as the primary weapon.

[Tylorious]

What about double shot though

[Diarmuid]

What is Double Shot and where does it come from?

[Tylorious]

i'm sorry, rapid shot

[Seharvepernfan]

Rapid shot just adds another attack to your full attack, but all attacks in that full attack suffer a -2 penalty. You can only use rapid shot during a full attack. It's all right there in the Rapid Shot entry on page 99.

[Diarmuid]

Rapid Shot and TWF stack together. You would get an extra "offhand attack" at max BAB, and then an extra "ranged attack" at max BAB along with your normal iteratives, but all attacks for the round would be made at -4 (assuming you meet requirements to reduce dual wielding penalties as much as possible).

If you had Quick Draw and were throwing daggers with both hands, you'd have something like this as an attack routine (assuming BAB 6, and 18 dex and normal daggers)

MH: +6
MH: +1
OH: +6
RS: +6

[Tylorious]

thank you guys

[mattie_p]

Rapid Shot and TWF stack together. You would get an extra "offhand attack" at max BAB, and then an extra "ranged attack" at max BAB along with your normal iteratives, but all attacks for the round would be made at -4 (assuming you meet requirements to reduce dual wielding penalties as much as possible).

If you had Quick Draw and were throwing daggers with both hands, you'd have something like this as an attack routine (assuming BAB 6, and 18 dex and normal daggers)

MH: +6
OH: +6
RS: +6
MH: +1

Main hand iterative attack goes last, otherwise exactly correct.

[Diarmuid]

Citation?

I know you have to take your iteratives in the order of highest to lowest, but I havent seen anything saying you take "extra attacks" before your lower iteratives.

[mattie_p]

As in the other thread, Full Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.

The second paragraph is where the meat is, the first paragraph explains why (so you can see how earlier attacks turn out before attacking more).

[Kornaki]

It says that any extra attacks from having a high base attack bonus have to go in the order of BAB. The first paragraph mentions extra attacks from feats, but it specifically excludes them in the sentence in question

[mattie_p]

Presumably because, for the purposes of rapidshot, the two attacks (from that hand) are identical, using whatever arrow or dagger you have selected for that attack. In other words, attacks could go

Main Hand
Rapid Shot
Off Hand
Main hand 2

or
Off hand
Rapid shot
Main hand 1
Main hand 2

So long as main hand 2 goes last, it really doesn't matter what order you go in.

[Diarmuid]

The only specification about taking attacks in order is that iterative attacks must be taken highest BAB to lowest BAB.

The sentence above that says you can take extras from other sources whenever you want, only specifying that you must use a Full Attack Action to get those extra attacks.

[mattie_p]

I'm not sure what you are asking now. Is it mixing in the off-hand and rapid shot?

This only comes up if you have iterative attacks. If you have no iterative attacks, you could do:
MH - OH - RS, or MH - RS - OH, or OH - RS - MH. It doesn't matter what order.

However, all of those attacks are at the same attack bonus. Once you mix in an iterative attack (at -5 compared to your BAB), then the clause I quoted takes effect. All attacks at the highest bonus take place, then, if you still need or want to, your next iterative attack takes place.

[Diarmuid]

Ah, now I see your confusion.


If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest.

The above identifies what attacks it's referring to. Attacks gained due to high BAB and the order in which they have to be taken.

Attacks gained via other methods are not bound by that rule and are explicitly called out to be handled in another manner by the other section you quoted.

Iterative Attacks |= Extra Attack gained that uses highest BAB

I see it being a reasonable houserule or RAI, but by RAW it doesnt apply.

[mattie_p]

You are correct that other rules handle alternate means to get extra attacks. I'm saying that the iteratives are the ones affected by the rule we've both been quoting, not the other ones.


Rapidshot: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a -2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Haste: When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation.

I don't think it matters how many extra attacks there are. Any iteratives go from highest to lowest BAB. You get three attacks at your highest BAB? Fine. TWF? Great. Natural weapons? Outstanding. Do all those attacks at your highest AB, because then the rule for iteratives attacks takes effect: make the iterative attacks from highest to lowest attack bonus.

[Diarmuid]

Iteratives |= Extra attacks

The rule applies to iteratives, defined as "number of attacks gained due to BAB".

I understand what you're trying to do and even acceded that it makes sense as a houserule/interpretation.

Think about this example.

Fighter with 6 BAB, Quick Draw, TWF, and Rapid Shot wielding 2 Shortswords.

No penalties taken into account below
MH 6 BAB
OH 6 BAB
MH 1 BAB
Drops swords as free action, draws bow and fires again (via Rapid Shot)
RS 6 BAB

This is impossible by your logic, but would seem to be perfectly legal by RAW. Sure, he's taking -4 to all his attacks in the round in penalties, but there's no reason he shouldnt be able to do this.

[mattie_p]

It goes back to the rules we've both quoted several times regarding iterative attacks. Basically, iteratives below your full BAB go last, after attacks at your full BAB.

I'm not arguing the order of rapidshot or TWF, instead I'm arguing that the paragraph we're discussing ensures that iterative attacks go after attacks at full BAB (otherwise, the iteratives would not be from highest to lowest, because all the bonus attacks are keyed off your full BAB). It might be semantics, but that is what RAW discussions are all about.

[Diarmuid]

The problem is that the RS/TWF attacks are not "iteratives". You keep calling them that because they use BAB to determine attack bonus, but they are not iterative attacks.

[mattie_p]

I agree that they are not iteratives, but they are keyed off of the full BAB attack (the first iterative attack, for those who have more than one attack per round due to BAB).

At this point I don't think we're getting anywhere, so I'll shake hands with you and move on, as we are now repeating the same points.

[Diarmuid]

Agreed


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