Is this legal? (3.5)

[Seharvepernfan]

Could a twfighter use all his off-hand attacks in a full-attack action, drop his off-hand weapon, then use his main-hand weapon two handed for the rest of his attacks? Could he then let go and quick-draw another off-hand weapon at the end of his turn?

EDIT: Or quick-draw a bow and use his main-hand attacks with it?

[mattie_p]

No, but mostly because "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest." This is found in Full Attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)

[Darrin]

Could a twfighter use all his off-hand attacks in a full-attack action, drop his off-hand weapon, then use his main-hand weapon two handed for the rest of his attacks?


No. The combat rules state you must make your attacks from your highest BAB to your lowest. If both your primary and offhand attack occur at the same BAB, then you can roll for either one first, but your second offhand attack must occur after your higher BAB attacks have been rolled.

If the attacker wants to drop his offhand weapon after he's completed one or more of his offhand attacks, he could do so as a free action. He could then regrip his primary weapon two-handed (getting a better Str bonus) as a free action (this isn't entirely clear by RAW, but regripping is usually treated as a free action) and then continue with the rest of his attacks.



Could he then let go and quick-draw another off-hand weapon at the end of his turn?


Dropping a weapon (or removing one of your hands) is a free action, as is using quickdraw, so yes.



EDIT: Or quick-draw a bow and use his main-hand attacks with it?

He could, yes. If he has iterative attacks left, he could shoot arrows, or use it as an improvised melee weapon (-4 attack penalty, 1d4 bludgeoning damage).

[Diarmuid]

No, but mostly because "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest." This is found in Full Attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)

The extra attacks coming from TWF or something like Rapid Shot are not gained "because your base attack bonus is high enough" so I dont see why you're applying this rule to them for odering.

[mattie_p]

Could a twfighter use all his off-hand attacks in a full-attack action, drop his off-hand weapon, then use his main-hand weapon two handed for the rest of his attacks? Could he then let go and quick-draw another off-hand weapon at the end of his turn?

EDIT: Or quick-draw a bow and use his main-hand attacks with it?


The extra attacks coming from TWF or something like Rapid Shot are not gained "because your base attack bonus is high enough" so I dont see why you're applying this rule to them for odering.

If he has more than one off-hand attack, the only way to do that is via iterative attacks with Improved two-weapon fighting and higher on the TWF tree (that or more than two hands, but he asked about TWF not multiweapon). All attacks are taken in order from highest attack bonus to lowest, but attacks with more than one weapon at the same attack bonus can be taken in any order.

[Rejakor]

Pretty sure you're wrong about that.

The TWF/ITWF/GTWF feats grant you an extra attack IF you have an extra attack from BAB. It is not called an iterative in any of the feats. It's an 'extra attack'. As such it would probably be allowed to be taken whenever.

That said there's nothing stopping this theoretical dude from 2hing his first attack, drawing a shortsword and 1hing his first offhand attack, dropping the shortsword and 2hing his first iterative, drawing another shortsword and 1hing his 2nd offhand attack, and so on and so forth.

[KillianHawkeye]

Recall that the books suggest placing a reasonable limit on the number of free actions that can be taken in a single turn.

[Rejakor]

There is no way to pursue that argument without ruling that knife-throwers can't throw knives at people using the Quick-Draw feat.

Or allowing it for knife throwers but not for the other kind of quick drawing. Which is quite deep into houserule territory.

[Curmudgeon]

The extra attacks coming from TWF or something like Rapid Shot are not gained "because your base attack bonus is high enough" so I dont see why you're applying this rule to them for odering. The reason mattie_p is applying this rule is because he's following exactly what it says. If you get more than one attack because your BAB is 6+, all your attacks must be in descending AB order. The rule is conditional on having multiple iterative attacks, but not limited in scope to those attacks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Save some steps, use a two-handed weapon with armor spikes.

[panaikhan]

Save some steps, use a two-handed reach weapon with armor spikes.
Fixed that for you.

[Ashtagon]

Could a twfighter use all his off-hand attacks in a full-attack action, drop his off-hand weapon, then use his main-hand weapon two handed for the rest of his attacks? Could he then let go and quick-draw another off-hand weapon at the end of his turn?

EDIT: Or quick-draw a bow and use his main-hand attacks with it?

"all his off-hand attacks"? Unless you've been investing in a certain feat chain, off-hand attacks only happen once per round, regardless of your BAB. A 20th level warblade with no specialist feats would get four iterative attacks with his main weapon, plus a single attack with his secondary weapon.

You could make a single attack with your secondary weapon. You could then drop it (free action), shift your grip on the primary weapon to two-handed (free action if you have Quick Draw), and 2HW with your iterative attacks.

He could then switch back to one-handed grip and quick draw another off-hand weapon. However, unless you have your spare weapons stowed appropriately, you can't quick draw them (or even draw them; they count as being in a backpack or other inappropriate container, requiring a move action to extract at best). At most, I'd allow a total of two Medium or Light weapons to be stowed on a belt, and a larger number of smaller-than-Light (3.0e Tiny) weapons to be stowed on a bandoleer.

You could in theory quick-draw a bow. However, I'd normally rule that long bows (or any Large weapon really) can't be quick-drawn because they can't be placed in a suitable holster. Such weapons are normally either carried in hand, or stowed on your back. A shortbow could be stowed on a belt, albeit somewhat awkwardly. And the back is no place to draw a weapon from in a hurry (no more than it is a place to draw a backpack from).


No, but mostly because "If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest." This is found in Full Attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#fullAttack)

That specifically applies to the iterative attacks. It doesn't apply to attacks from off-hand weapons or from having multiple natural attacks, or from flurry of misses, or from Rapid Shot, or even from having Chocolate Flavour Teeth.

[gr8artist]

Save some steps, use a two-handed weapon with armor spikes.
Does that work? Can you use TWF and THF like this?
Assuming you're a 11th level fighter (Pathfinder) with TWF, I-TWF, G-TWF, armor spikes and a greatsword, could your full attack be:
sword +11 /spikes +11/ sword +6/ spikes +6/ sword +1/ spikes +1
and you'd get 1.5x STR on all the sword attacks, and 1/2 STR on all the spikes?

[mishka_shaw]

There is no way to pursue that argument without ruling that knife-throwers can't throw knives at people using the Quick-Draw feat.

Or allowing it for knife throwers but not for the other kind of quick drawing. Which is quite deep into houserule territory.

Well quickdraw says that a character with this feat can throw knifes per attack which could be seen as removing the need for free-actions.

To the OP, from what I read it does seem completely legal although I am unsure as to how useful it actually is. Also yes you can quickdraw a bow although you will invoke attacks of opportunity if in melee (and get -4 to attack if an ally is threatening) still.

To summarise, he can do this as long as he has weapons sheathed on himself for it (so there may be a limit to the amount of weapons you can lash onto yourself). Also the DM can set a limit on the amount of free-actions that can be taken in combat, most don't bother as it never really causes issues although I do wonder how many free things you can do in one turn if you stack them all up.

[Andezzar]

Does that work? Can you use TWF and THF like this?
Assuming you're a 11th level fighter (Pathfinder) with TWF, I-TWF, G-TWF, armor spikes and a greatsword, could your full attack be:
sword +11 /spikes +11/ sword +6/ spikes +6/ sword +1/ spikes +1
and you'd get 1.5x STR on all the sword attacks, and 1/2 STR on all the spikes?I don't know about pathfinder, but in 3.5 you forgot the -2 to all attacks. Otherwise it is correct.

For the combination of a two-handed reach weapon, it would better be spiked chain. Most other reach weapons cannot attack adjacent squares, so you could not use all attacks on a single opponent.

[Curmudgeon]

That specifically applies to the iterative attacks. It doesn't apply to attacks from off-hand weapons or from having multiple natural attacks, or from flurry of misses, or from Rapid Shot, or even from having Chocolate Flavour Teeth.
Can you cite an actual rule to support this claim? I haven't been able to find one.

[Diarmuid]

Full Attack

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first.


The first and last paragraphs are separate thoughts. The first discusses how to handle extra attacks other than your iteratives, the third specifies that iteratives have to be taken from highest to lowest.