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Giegue
2012-11-19, 01:03 PM
As the title says. I have been told multiple times that there is an AD&D 1e stat generation system that allows customization of ability scores and is not much different from 3.5e's point buy system. I was told by one individual it was in unearthed arcana, but could not, for the life of me, find it in that book. Thus, I am turning to the playground. Where the heck can I find this system? In what soucebook and on what page? If you could tell me I'd be eternally grateful.

Lord Torath
2012-11-19, 02:29 PM
I suspect they may be referring to 2nd Edition's "Player's Option: Skills and Powers" book.

I'm not aware of any for 1st Edition AD&D.

Lapak
2012-11-19, 02:51 PM
I suspect they may be referring to 2nd Edition's "Player's Option: Skills and Powers" book.

I'm not aware of any for 1st Edition AD&D.2nd Edition also had a hybrid rolling/point assignment system in the PHB, where the points you got to assign were randomized. Method VI was 'everything starts at 8, roll 7(?)d6, assign the points from each die to an ability score.'

The closest thing I can think of from 1e was from Unearthed Arcana, and involved choosing how many dice you wanted to roll for each ability (that is, instead of 3d6, you might choose to roll 5d6b3 for Intelligence.) I don't remember any straight-up point buy method in 1st edition.

EDIT: That said, both editions had plenty of methods that allowed 'customization' of scores to some extent, ranging from 'you still roll 3d6 but get to choose what score goes where' on to the methods I mention above.

Joe the Rat
2012-11-19, 03:12 PM
Apologies in advance for the incomplete information - This is from my rather patchy memory:

Back in the day our group often set up using a point-built system of sorts. This was post-UA, so it used seven stats (Comeliness), and used 96 or 98 points (I keep forgetting which) to assign to your attributes. It worked reasonably well, in the sense you could build a character to meet the all the requisites for any class (min-maxer's delight). For fighters, I believe each step of exceptional strength required a point, though it's possible it was rolled.

I had never found a source for this method, but I suspect it was born or used in one of the Midwest conventions. The other source would have been a random article from one of the (not always mainstream) gaming mags. We tended to end up with a lot of semi-obscure article-based stuff in play.

Giegue
2012-11-19, 04:26 PM
Ok...If you got rid of comeliness how many points would you assign for such a method. I am sure it would have to be lower since you have one less stat to spend points on?

Greylond
2012-11-19, 10:30 PM
IIRC the 1st Edition version it was either in Greyhawk Adventures(hard cover) or it was an optional rule presented in a couple of modules. Possibly in a Dragon Magazine. It's been too long since I've seen it...

hamlet
2012-11-20, 09:25 AM
As the title says. I have been told multiple times that there is an AD&D 1e stat generation system that allows customization of ability scores and is not much different from 3.5e's point buy system. I was told by one individual it was in unearthed arcana, but could not, for the life of me, find it in that book. Thus, I am turning to the playground. Where the heck can I find this system? In what soucebook and on what page? If you could tell me I'd be eternally grateful.

Mentioned in the 2e DMG, though not really explained. Explained at length in the horrible Options and Powers books from AD&D 2.5. I seriously caution against using it as the randomness is part of what makes AD&D work the way it does.

If you want more customization, there's an alternate rolling method presented first, I think, in Masque of the Red Death that involved rolling 18d6 and assigning the dice (not the totals, but each individual die) to ability scores as you wished providing that no score went over 18 and none under 3. It works out fairly well and I've used it once or twice for a crowd of much more story telling oriented players, but it still maintains a strong element of the random that makes character creation in AD&D what it is.

Joe the Rat
2012-11-20, 12:51 PM
Ok...If you got rid of comeliness how many points would you assign for such a method. I am sure it would have to be lower since you have one less stat to spend points on?

Thinking over the numbers on my drive home, It occurs to me that may be a little high (98 by 7, average is 14!). But given the absolute minimum for UA-era Paladins is 88points of stats (had to meet cavalier standards, and that's with Comeliness 3), it might be on target.

Dropping Comeliness, UA Paladins required 85 points of stats. 86 or 88 would be a workable total (Pally gets a whole 1-3 points to customize :smallbiggrin:) If you're into numerical meanings, they're both amusing. the average still comes out over 14.

Keep in mind that as raw score assignment, there's no scaling for assigning high stats. 18(01)/18/18/11/10/10 is a valid point spread. You might want to tweak that by switching to 2/1 above some point. Then again, if you aren't using cavaliers and paladin-as-cavalier, the totals can come down a bit. Your minimum requirements for classes fall into the 60's. 76 has a nice feel to it, but that's guesswork.

(Okay, so now I'm basically building one rather than finding one. Shoot me.)

Balain
2012-11-21, 02:12 AM
It's been a long time since I played 1st edition but thinking of starting a few adventures in 1st edition again. What I recall was all point buy systems were house ruled. I think e used some where around 85 points, 1 - 10 or 1 - 12 cost 1 point each. then 2 points for 11 - 16's and 3 for 17 - 18 ad each 5% str was 1 point....nope to few points....any ways if you do the math you can come up with a the right number depending if you want average, below average or above average.

viking vince
2012-11-21, 10:51 AM
I have never played 3.5, only 1e. I have never seen a 'point buy' system. There is the alternate generation method in UA already discussed, which is looked upon with disdain my most regular 1e players.

Thialfi
2012-11-21, 11:56 AM
I don't know of any point buy systems and I wouldn't suggest them. 1e/2e isn't balanced for it like 3e/4e is. In 1e/2e min-maxers would sell their characters souls for an 18 (especially for fighters to obtain that exceptional strength roll) and there is little price to pay in game when they do so. In 1e/2e there is no practical difference between a score of 8 and a score of 14.

Let's say you went 32 point buy.

This fighter character - 18 str, 8 int, 8 wis, 18 dex, 8 con, 8 cha

is so outstanding as to be unbalanced. The character pays no penalty at all for having 4 scores of 8 and gains an exceptional strength roll, +4 to their armor class, and will probably dual wield to gain an extra attack each round.

Why would someone rolling a fighter choose a different option?

Water_Bear
2012-11-21, 07:08 PM
But on the other hand, because of the ability score requirements it's ludicrously difficult to roll up a Paladin and even with classes like Bards or Specialist Wizards it's not a sure thing even with 4d6b3. Not to mention that the vast majority of PC Wizards will never be able to cast 9th level spells no matter what level they rise to.

Maybe that's a feature rather than a flaw, I've never actually played the game despite having read the books, but it really seems counter-productive to put in a mechanic which stops people from being able to make characters of their chosen class (or even race!) based on random chance.

Balain
2012-11-22, 03:19 AM
I think the idea was that there are very few paladins, not many people can live up to the standards, and not many high level wizards throwing 9th level spells about. So there was the limits on stats. It sounds good in practice, the problem is some people want to play a paladin and can't because the dice rolls bad. Who wants to play a below average wizard? Besides shouldn't an adventurer/hero/super villain be above average?

I could see some roleplaying opportunities with a below average wizard, but most people want to be able to cast those high level spells if their character gains enough levels.

MeeposFire
2012-11-23, 10:33 PM
Point buy would be difficult to devise because unlike 3e or 4e the value of a single point changes drastically between abilities and between numbers.

In 3e and 4e we know that every two points is a +1 so it makes it easier to make a system that makes higher abilities more expensive.

In 1e and 2e ability scores are not remotely similar. Dex gives no bonus to AC until 15 and then gives a +1 bonus through to 18 but then not on 19. Str does not give a bonus until level 16 which is just damage and then gives +1 to hit at 17. I have no idea how you coud get that to work.

In Baldurs gate/Icewind Dale series they rolled stats with you always getting the minimum for your class/race and then you could take points away from a score and put it into another (subject to minimums and maximums).

Balain
2012-11-25, 03:49 AM
that reminds me,we did exactly that. Rolled 4d6 best 3 for stats, each roll pkaced in what ever stat we wanted and could move a number of points from stat to stat,either 1:1 or 2:1. if total rolled for all stats was 10(or some othe beliw average number) you could re-roll all stats.

SowZ
2012-11-25, 09:47 PM
I think the rarity of a class or race should be built into the setting, not a limitation on PCs. PCs should be able to 'be' the rarity unless the tone of that campaign calls for something else. But I digress. Other rolling variants-

-Everyone rolls a stat array, either 3d6 or 4b3. People can then choose to use other peoples arrays if they wish and assign the scores differently.

-You roll 3d6 three times. Those are three of your stats. Your other three stats are those first three subtracted from 25. (So for every eighteen, you get a seven. For every 7, you get an eighteen.) This can be done in order or out of order.

Both of these variants are ways to keep the randomness of stat rolling but maintain some semblance of party balance. Nothing like what you are describing, though. They may be ways of doing what you are looking for, though.

hamlet
2012-11-26, 09:46 AM
I think the rarity of a class or race should be built into the setting, not a limitation on PCs. PCs should be able to 'be' the rarity unless the tone of that campaign calls for something else. But I digress. Other rolling variants-


It was, originally, actually. Most people fail to recall that AD&D books were very specifically for the Greyhawk setting and Gary encouraged people, almost required one could say, to change as appropriate to reflect their own milieu/preferences.

The original AD&D books were D&D in Greyhawk, and people just conveniently . . . "forgot" that and the rules just carried over into 2nd edition without alteration, really and people railed against it and then 3rd edition was born without them.

Joe the Rat
2012-11-27, 09:29 AM
-You roll 3d6 three times. Those are three of your stats. Your other three stats are those first three subtracted from 25. (So for every eighteen, you get a seven. For every 7, you get an eighteen.) This can be done in order or out of order.

I actually rather like this idea, it gives you 75 points-worth of random stat values. Now we only need to figure out how to handle rolls < 7 (19s were mostly from racial stat bonuses, and only for specific maximums - anything higher requires extensive and repetitive use of a library.) Either you set aside the overflow for point swapping, or take the hit and smile at the fact that you got in the neighborhood of a 1 in 6 shot at an 18, and enjoy the +4hp (+2 if you're not a fighter) per level.

If you do assignment, and combine this with a point swap, it should be good.

My latest game (which is a bit more Basic), the DM had us do 4d6, best 3, assigned as you roll. It puts more of a gamble in your stats (do I assign this decent score here, or hold out for something higher?), plus gives you the random surprise on your final stat. Which is totally not point buy, but can be amusing.

Back on topic...

Point buy would be difficult to devise because unlike 3e or 4e the value of a single point changes drastically between abilities and between numbers.

In 3e and 4e we know that every two points is a +1 so it makes it easier to make a system that makes higher abilities more expensive.

In 1e and 2e ability scores are not remotely similar. Dex gives no bonus to AC until 15 and then gives a +1 bonus through to 18 but then not on 19. Str does not give a bonus until level 16 which is just damage and then gives +1 to hit at 17. I have no idea how you coud get that to work.

Yeah, this was one of the issues of 1 & 2 - unless you had really exceptional stats (good or bad), the stat scores are mostly empty. I say mostly, because there were detailed shifts in carrying capacity, bar-bending %ages, languages, system shock %ages, maximum henchmen, etc. Straight-up bonuses from stats were the exceptions, not the rule. To be truly balanced, you would need to have some sort of scaling for high stats. Point-for-point up to about 14, then up the game to +2 per up to 17, and +3 for the 18. (Let exceptional strength be bought +1 per table row from there?)

This also makes sure they are popping a bit extra at creation in order to get that high requisite 10% xp bonus (where applicable).

Again, figure out the most expensive minimums for the classes you are allowing (I don't think there are any race/class minimums that would cost more than some of the fiddlier human-only classes), maybe toss in a few extra points for them to customize, and you're golden.

Lord Torath
2012-11-27, 02:20 PM
This website (http://home.earthlink.net/~duanevp/dnd/stat_generation.htm) gives an in-depth breakdown of the most common ability score generation methods. It's a bit of a read, but really interesting.

I really like the 6x6 matrix method, but it takes a lot of rolling (unless you've set up a bunch of formulas and random number generators in Excel).