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lsfreak
2012-11-19, 02:24 PM
I've ever-so-slowly been working on rewriting some melee, but I figured a better place to start than with the classes is with what they have in common: the set of combat actions that can be taken besides just attack/full attack.

The thing is, most of them suck. They require feats or other costs in order to be made useable. A number of them have an action cost that's far too limiting (feinting), while others have a downside too risky to use without a clear advantage (tripping and disarming provoke and let someone return the favor if you fail?). An easy way of spicing up a melee's life would be to make the actions worth the risk without any investment, just like a spellcaster can cast a spell they know without having to choose feats that make it worth casting.

Another thing to make it more interesting is to break up trading full attacks for more movement. The best you get with default mechanics tends to be a slow retreat or advance with 5-foot-steps every round, which isn't particularly interesting.

What I'm looking for:
Any kind of feedback, really. Things that don't make sense, balance, tricks I clearly didn't think through, possibly abuses, things that stand out as something you like/dislike...

Note on Other Rules:
I'm using a vitality system and 3d6 instead of d20, hopefully I didn't miss any changes in the main text, but I'm also including this stuff here for a bit of feedback before I continue on. Also I'm coming at this from E6, rather than normal 1-20. These are rules that compliment the combat options that are included as the core text of this post.

Modified Wound System:
- Upon reaching half vitality, a character becomes fatigued (unless they are already exhausted or collapsed)
- Upon losing all vitality or taking wound damage, a character is exhausted (unless already collapsed), unless the ability explicitly states that its wound damage does not cause exhaustion.
- A character with any wound damage is always fatigued, unless immune to the fatigue condition
- Critical hits deal wound damage only for the base weapon damage + half the weapon's ability modifier + the first point of damage from any bonus die of damage (such as sneak attack). The remainder of the damage is applied to vitality. “Half the weapon's ability modifier” means, for example, that a greatax wielded with a +6 Strength normally deals +9 damage, but on a crit deals 3 damage to wounds and the remaining 6 to vitality. This keeps critical hits dangerous, but also limits the one-shot capability, especially in the face of sneak attack or power attack.
- If an attack beats the target's AC by more than 10, the attack is an automatic critical. This does not apply to spells or spell-like abilities targeting touch AC.
[The goal here is to make combat grittier than normal, but not as unforgiving as a normal vitality system, especially when it comes to random criticals]

New Condition Rules:
In addition to conditions seeming a bit strong (especially given they are another thing that tends to be easy as a caster, damned hard as a melee), they also seemed to impact melee especially hard.
Weariness Scale:
This replaces the default fatigue and exhaustion.
Fatigued: -2Str/-2Dex penalty. If a character runs or charges, at the beginning of their next round they may either spend a move action catching their breath or they are immediately exhausted. Resting for 4 hours removes the Fatigued condition, unless the character has wound damage.
Exhausted: -4Str/-4Dex penalty. The character moves at half speed. Running or charging collapses the character after the action is completed. Resting for 1 hour moves the character up to Fatigued.
Collapsed: -8Str/-8Dex penalty. The character's movement speed drops to 5 feet or one-tenth their normal move speed, whichever is faster. Resting for 5 minutes moves a character up to Exhausted.
[I'm considering adding a mental fatigue state for spellcasters, or simply tacking it on to this, especially with fatigue/exhaustion coming into play with the vitality system.]

Impairment Scale:
This replaces the sickened and nauseated conditions, as distracted and overwhelmed. The impairment scale is used not only for nausea, but also pain, horrific sights, and so on.
Sickened (Distracted): -2 penalty on all attack and weapon damage rolls, on skill and ability checks, and a -1 penalty to caster level.
Nauseated (Overwhelmed): -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks, and a -1 penalty to caster level and save DC's of spells and spell-like abilities. A nauseated character can take a single move action, or can take a full-round action to perform what would otherwise be a standard action. Actions that are normally full-round actions cannot be taken.
Incapacitated: An incapacitated character is denied their Dex bonus to AC, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill and ability checks, and a -1 penalty to caster level and save DC's of spells and spell-like abilities. They may only take a single move action, or a standard action if attempting to end the effect requires a standard action. This does not extend to casting spells or using abilities to end the condition.


Miscellaneous Rules
Full Attacking:
A full attack action with a melee weapon can be taken as a standard action. Full attacks involving both ranged weapons and melee weapons may be taken as standard actions, provided there are as many or more melee attacks as ranged.

5-foot step:
There is no more 5-foot step. Instead, a character can move 10 feet (in a single 10-foot movement or as two 5-foot adjustments) without provoking an attack of opportunity provided the following:
- They have not moved normally this round
- They have made a melee attack, or are moving into position to make such an attack, or are otherwise engaged in melee. I can't seem to find any adequate wording; the intent of this is to allow melee some freedom of movement while engaged, but to disallow archers or spellcasters a free escape from AoO's.
A character character with a speed penalty instead moves 5 feet, unless their movement speed is currently 5 feet or lower.

Casting Defensively:
Casting a spell or using a spell-like ability normally provokes an attack of opportunity. Increasing the casting time to a full round action (or one extra round, if multiple rounds) allows a spell to be cast defensively. Attacks of opportunity may still be made and damage is still rolled, but this damage is not applied and only used to see how difficult a Concentration check casting the spell will be.

Outnumbered:
If a character is threatened by 3 or more creatures, and at least two of them are flanking, all of them are considered flanking.

Movement and Standard Actions:
You may split movement and attacks up around other actions in a round. Moving, making an attack, and then finishing movement (Spring Attack), or making the first attack of a standard-action full attack, moving, and then finishing the attack are the most basic forms of this, but one could also make the first attack, demoralize an opponent, and then finish the attack. You may only split one action per round – you cannot move, attack, move, and attack, as two actions would then be split.

Fighting Styles
Some melee weapons lend themselves to be used with agility. In addition to all light weapons, longswords, greatswords, scimitars, falchions, rapiers, courtblades, javelins, spears, and quarterstaves can use either Strength or Dexterity for their melee attack and damage rolls, whichever is higher when using them.
All classes with at least 3/4BAB provide proficiency with unarmed attacks (i.e. they never take nonprofiency penalties nor provoke)
Bows and crossbows may use your Dex or Int modifier for attack rolls. This is also added to the damage roll.

Fighting Styles:
Bows and crossbows do not benefit from these, except hand crossbows can be used to gain the Single-Handed bonus, the Two-Handed bonus if also wielding a melee weapon, and the Two-Weapon Attacking option.
Single-Handed: You add half your Dexterity modifier as a dodge bonus to AC as long as your offhand is free. You cannot gain both this bonus and the Two-Handed bonus in a single round. Fighting unarmed is counted as single-handed.
Two-Handed: You add an extra half of your Strength bonus on damage rolls with the weapon.
Two-Weapon: You add one quarter of your BAB as a shield bonus to AC.
Shield: Gain the shield's bonus to AC.

Two-Weapon Attacking: When using a shield or an offhand weapon, you may attack with your offhand weapon instead of your mainhand weapon when making an attack. You may, instead, take a -2 penalty to all attacks for the round in order to make a single, extra attack at your highest BAB with your offhand weapon or shield, which gains only half your Strength bonus on its damage roll. Using a weapon that's not light in your offhand increases the penalty to -4.
You may use an unarmed strike as an offhand to two-weapon fight even when using a two-handed weapon; in this case, your two-handed weapon gains only your Strength modifier on its damage roll.

Attack Options
Changes on Core options should be noted in italics for emphasis.
Power Attack
As part of an attack, you may subtract a number from your attacks up to your BAB. You gain a bonus on your damage rolls with your mainhand weapon equal to twice this penalty, or one each of two weapons equal to the penalty. While termed “power attack,” this can be just as much a dagger through a tiny opening in armor as a berserker with a huge axe swinging widely.
Driving Attack
As part of a melee attack, you may choose to sacrifice 10 feet of movement (whether from normal movement, a charge, or a 10-foot adjustment) in order to drive an opponent back. If your attack is successful, your opponent is driven 5 feet away from you (directly away if you are charging, or they choose directly or at an angle otherwise) and you may follow up with 5 feet of your own movement. You may sacrifice an additional 10 feet of movement to move them an additional 5 feet, either by sacrificing 20, 30, or more speed with a single attack, or by taking multiple attacks each with 10 feet of movement.
Your opponent may instead resist your driving attack, in which case you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls with weapons against them but take a -1 penalty to AC until the beginning of your next turn, for each 10 feet of movement speed you sacrificed. An opponent who cannot move back (e.g. they're up against a wall already) is forced to take this option. An opponent knows how strongly you are driving with the attack before choosing whether to resist, and may choose to resist only some.
For example, Alice wants to set Bob up to be bull rushed off a cliff, so she attempts to drive him closer with 30 feet of movement (15 feet of drive). She can attempt this with a single attack (in which case Bob would choose to resist the last 5 feet of drive and give Alice -1AC/+2dmg for the rest of her attacks); however, she decides for reliability and attacks three times each with 5 feet of drive rather than risking her first and only diving attack misses entirely.
You may not make a driving attack with an attack of opportunity.
Fighting Defensively
As part of an attack or full attack action, you may take a -4 penalty to attacks until the beginning of your next turn in order to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same duration. At 4 BAB, you may instead take -6 to attacks for a +4 dodge bonus.
Total Defense
As a standard action, gain a +4 dodge bonus to AC. At 4 BAB, this increases to +8. In addition, you cannot be overwhelmed. You may not make any attacks, including attacks of opportunity, while in total defense, but see Riposte, below.

Combat Actions
None of the options that normally provoke an attack of opportunity (except Coup de Grace) or require a special weapon to trigger have this requirement anymore, and failure does not trigger a counter-attempt. All other changes on Core options should be noted in italics for emphasis.
Bull Rush
You may, as an attack, make a bull rush to attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging them. You and the defender make opposed Strength checks, modified by your sizes (+4 for every size greater than Medium, -4 for every size smaller). You gain a +2 bonus if you are charging, and the defender gets a +4 bonus if they have more than two legs or are especially stable in some other way. If you beat the defender's Strength check result, you push them back 5 feet. You may move with the target in order to push them back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defender's check result. You can't, however, exceed your normal movement limit. In addition, if you bull rush someone into a wall or other solid object, you deal 2d6+Str points of damage. [Removed: Flat size limit, AoOs]
Calculated Strike
As a full-round action, you can make a single, dedicated strike against an opponent. Before making your attack roll, make a concentration check. If this check beats your target’s AC, you ignore any miss chance they have due to cover or concealment (but not total cover or total concealment). In addition, you may treat the target as one range increment closer for the purpose of range penalties, sneak attack, and similar effects.
Coup de Grace
You may make an attack against a helpless target as a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity. It is otherwise an automatic critical strike, and if the target fails a Fort save of DC 10 + total damage dealt, they die outright. You cannot make a coup de grace against a target that has no anatomy.
Covering Fire
You may, as an attack, attempt to provide cover for another creature when you wield a ranged weapon. Any time before the beginning of your next turn, when an ally within 30 feet is attacked with a melee attack, you may declare you are using one of these cover fires and roll an attack. Your ally may use their AC or your attack roll, whichever is higher, to determine whether or not the melee attack hit.
Death Attack
You may spend 3 rounds studying a target within 60 feet. You cannot do anything during these 3 rounds except something as distracting as light conversation. You must be able to see them, and they cannot recognize you as an enemy. After these 3 rounds of study, you have 3 rounds to land an attack without your target realizing you are an enemy. If your first attack against them is successful, it is an automatic critical hit, and your target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 your hit dice + your Int, Dex, or Str mod) or take double damage.
Demoralize
As a move action, you can attempt to demoralize an enemy within 30 feet. This opponent must have an Intelligence of at least 3, and must be able to see or hear you. If you succeed on an Intimidate check of DC 10 + the opposing character's level + any bonuses they have against fear, that opponent is shaken until the beginning of your next turn.
Distracting Shot
As an attack, you may attempt to throw an enemy off and open them to an attack. If you are wielding a ranged weapon and are within one range increment (or 30 feet, whichever is farther) of an enemy threatened in melee, you may replace an attack with a roll of d20 + your BAB + your Wisdom modifier, against DC 10 + your target's BAB + your target's Wisdom modifier. If you are successful, they immediately provoke an attack of opportunity from one creature who threatens them. If they are threatened by multiple creatures, you choose which one gets to make the attack. This does not entitle a creature to more attacks of opportunity than they can normally make, it merely provides a possibility for them to make one if they are able and choose to.
Feint
If you threaten an opponent in melee, you may take a move action to try and catch them off-guard. Make a Wisdom check with your BAB added as a bonus, against DC of 10 + your opponent's BAB + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. You take a -4 penalty against nonhumanoids and a -8 penalty against creatures of animal intelligence. If you can successful, they are denied their Dexterity bonus to AC against your next attack, made before the end of your next turn.
Recovery
You may take a standard action to attempt to catch your breath. You gain your Con modifier plus your character level in hit points (up to a maximum of half your total hit points). If you successfully repel any attacks or spells until the beginning of your next turn, you gain this benefit again. If you are taking a total defense action, recovery is instead a move action.
Riposte
While you are gaining the benefits of a Total Defense action, if an enemy you threaten attempts a melee attack against you but fails, you may use an immediate action to end the benefits of Total Defense and make an attack of opportunity in response.

lsfreak
2012-11-19, 02:26 PM
New Feats:
Have a few.
Improved Bull Rush Requires Strength 13
You gain a +4 bonus on all bull rush attempts. For every 5 feet you could have pushed the target, but they were blocked by a solid object, you deal an additional 2d6 + 1/2Str damage. If you push them into an area of difficult terrain or a non-solid object (such as bushes), they are subject to a trip attempt (using the same die roll -5 as your bull rush).
Improved Disarm
You gain a +4 bonus on disarm attempts. When you disarm an opponent, you may fling their weapon up to 20 feet. If your opponent lacks a weapon (such as fighting unarmed, or fighting with a natural weapon), you may still attempt to “disarm” them of an attack, such as straining a wrist or making a painful hit on a fang, inflicting a -2 penalty on attack rolls and -4 penalty to damage rolls with that particular attack (non-stacking). This penalty lasts until they can rest for 10 minutes.
Improved Trip
You gain a +4 bonus on trip attempts. If you successfully trip an opponent in melee combat, you may immediately make a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn't used your attack for the trip attempt.
Combat Expertise
When fighting defensively, you may instead subtract any number from your attacks up to your BAB and add that amount to your AC as a dodge bonus.
Expert Feint Requires Int 13
You may add your Intelligence modifier to your rolls for attempting a feint, in place of or in addition to your Wisdom modifier. You may feint as a swift action, move action, or as an attack. If you successfully feint, you may either gain your Intelligence modifier on the damage roll of your next attack against the target, or move 5 feet without provoking to another square where you threaten your target (you may not move if your movement has been reduced by half or more).
Fencer Requires Int 13
You can make riposte attacks while fighting defensively with at least a -2 penalty to attack. If you riposte during total defense and you use the attack of opportunity to make a disarm or feint, if you are successful, you may make another attack as if you hadn't used your attack for the disarm or feint.
Expert Fencer Requires Fencer, Int 13
You gain an extra immediate action per round, which can be used for a riposte attack that does not count against your normal number of attacks of opportunity. You may instead use this immediate action to regain the benefits of total defense after losing it to make a riposte. This immediate action cannot be used for any other purpose.
Deadly Distraction
When you use covering fire, any shot that replaces an ally's AC also acts as an attack roll against the character that made the melee attack roll, albeit at a -4 penalty.
Sniper's Shot Requires Spot 4 ranks
When making a Calculated Strike with a ranged weapon, you may make a Spot check instead of a Concentration check, and you ignore an additional range increment. A successful calculated strike with a ranged weapon deals extra damage, either twice your ability modifier or double the number of bonus damage die from one source (such as sneak attack).
Subversive Combat Requires Bluff 4 ranks
When making a feint or distracting shot, you may substitute your BAB+Wis for your Bluff modifier. If this is done, you must overcome the higher of 10+BAB+Wis or 10+Sense Motive for your opponent. You may feint as a swift action, move action, or as an attack. If you succeed on a distracting shot by at least 5 points, your target is denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack of opportunity you provided.
Sudden Death
You can make a coup de grace as am attack instead of a standard action. Enemies that become stunned provoke an attack of opportunity from you.
Decisive Strike
When you make a Calculated Strike with a melee or natural weapon, or with an unarmed strike, your attack becomes a melee touch attack.
Two-Weapon Offense Requires Dex 13
When you take the penalty to gain extra attacks with your offhand, instead of a single attack you gain as many attacks, at the same attack bonuses, as with your mainhand. In addition, you may take penalties as if you are attacking with both weapons, without gaining the extra attacks; if you do this, you may flank your target by yourself.

WyvernLord
2012-11-19, 04:44 PM
Title is misleading.

You are fixing mundane combat options not just melee.
Love this so far. Expert fencer is cool. Parry, riposte, set defense. Going to see if I can get this on a character it would fit him well.

tarkisflux
2012-11-19, 05:56 PM
5-foot step:
There is no more 5-foot step. Instead, a character can move 10 feet (in a single 10-foot movement or as two 5-foot adjustments) without provoking an attack of opportunity provided the following:
- They have not moved normally this round
- They have made a melee attack, or are moving into position to make such an attack, or are otherwise engaged in melee. I can't seem to find any adequate wording; the intent of this is to allow melee some freedom of movement while engaged, but to disallow archers or spellcasters a free escape from AoO's.
A character character with a speed penalty instead moves 5 feet, unless their movement speed is currently 5 feet or lower.


Since you indicated you were having trouble with the wording, here's a suggestion for getting the melee adjustments without also getting caster / archer disengagements (suggestions on other things will need to wait for further rules digestion):

5-foot step:
As a full-round action, you may move 5' without provoking attacks of opportunity. If your base speed is less than 10' you may not take this action.

Adjust Position:
As a move action, you may move up to half your base speed (rounded down). If you make a melee attack immediately before or after you take this action, the movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Hope that is helpful :-)

Centric
2012-11-20, 03:45 AM
Melee Movement:
Before or after your melee attack, or when threatened in melee, you may move two five-foot squares as a special move, replacing/before any other form of movement (can a 10-foot and normal move be done, as long as the 10-foot comes first, or only one?) and provoking no Attack of Opportunity. While suffering a movement penalty, you may move only 5 feet in this way, or not at all if your speed is below 5 feet. If disengaging without attacking your standard action that an attack would have used is consumed anyway.

My attempt. I extrapolated a bit, but did I go in the right direction? :smallredface:

NeoSeraphi
2012-11-20, 03:55 AM
Here's a few relevant issues I have with your suggestions:

1) A full attack action can be taken as a standard action-

There are two obvious problems this suggestion poses. The first is one that I am sure that you did not intend, which is that now archers can constantly move to put distance between themselves and pursuers while continously firing a volley of deadly arrows their way. Archers already have a feat for this (Manyshot) and it's a tax on them, one that they need because otherwise archery would just be too good since you could just start far away from your target and never let them catch up to you.

The second problem is a little trickier, but let me reason it out for you: By removing the character's reliance on full-round actions, you are punishing tanks and bruisers, characters who rely on standing head to head with their enemies in a toe to toe brawl.

If there's absolutely no reward for facing your enemy head on and not giving them an inch, then why do it? But more importantly, most fights will STILL be two characters who are engaged in melee and using their full-round attacks on each other. So...what do they do with their new move actions? You don't give any options to use them. What's the point of giving someone the ability to move and full attack if you don't give them anything to do with that move when they don't need to move.

A lot of people on this forum argue that melee characters need Pounce to be effective at higher levels, and sure, Pounce is a nice thing to have. But once the gap between you and your target is closed, you're both just going to stand there and slug it out anyway, and if your goal was to change melee to give it more options, well, you haven't done that since you haven't given them options to use in close quarters.

My suggestion? If you want to keep this "move and full attack" thing viable, at least give melee some things to do with their move actions. Things like giving yourself a bonus to AC as you collect your thoughts or bonus to your damage rolls as you are able to put more oomph into them. Something. Reward the man who stands against his enemy, since you're already rewarding the swift fighter who leaps from foe to foe.

lsfreak
2013-01-29, 11:53 PM
Hey look at this. I completely forgot I even posted this.


Title is misleading.
Fixed. EDIT: Or not. Am I blind or do I have to do something like Report Post and ask for it to be changed?

The attempts at rewordings aren't quite what I'm looking for. If nothing else, I suppose I could just go with "provided you have not cast a spell with a cast time of greater than one Swift Action, or have not attacked with a projectile weapon." But I was trying to word it in a positive way (can use it when doing this) rather than a negative (can't use it when doing this), mostly in order to accommodate things like hand crossbow + dagger rogues or duskblades, which may violate the negative rewording. A character should be able to stand up and demoralize an opponent - something that requires no attacking - and still make the 10 feet of adjustment.


The first is one that I am sure that you did not intend, which is that now archers can constantly move to put distance between themselves and pursuers while continously firing a volley of deadly arrows their way.
Right you are. How's this? "A full attack action with a melee weapon can be taken as a standard action. Full attacks involving both ranged weapons and melee weapons may be taken as standard actions, provided there are as many or more melee attacks as ranged." It allows dagger-and-hand-crossbow, attacking with a spear and then throwing it, etc, without being too convoluted.


If there's absolutely no reward for facing your enemy head on and not giving them an inch, then why do it?
Well, in part that was exactly the goal, but also...

So...what do they do with their new move actions? You don't give any options to use them. What's the point of giving someone the ability to move and full attack if you don't give them anything to do with that move when they don't need to move.
At the time I figured I'd done enough - feinting and demoralizing while full-attacking, and for people who aren't using their movement, driving attack becomes an option; plus anything else you'd need to do that normally spends an action.

But you're right that, after vaguely thinking about it for two months, this doesn't quite seem enough. Part of the problem is that adding bonuses like that means you have both Power Attack and "spend a move action to boost damage;" I now partially see why Legend switched Fighting Defensively to a move action even though I don't like the nerf. I also don't want an overwhelming number of options in combat, and am rather comfortable with the number that are here now, between originals and the stuff I added. And I'd still prefer encouraging mobile melee rather than rewarding standing still. So I guess I'm not entirely sure what to do right now.

A few barely-thought-through ideas:
Intercept: Spend your move action. In response to a creature moving, you may spend an immediate action to take your move action. You must end your movement so that you threaten the creature. If you do, gain a bonus on d20 AoO rolls of +2 (be it attacks, disarms, trips...).
Defensive Stance: Spend a move action. Between the end of your turn and the beginning of your next turn, your threatened area increases by 5 feet for the purposes of making AoO's (though not vertically, unless you have a means of flying).
Flurry: You may make a full attack as a full-round action instead of a standard action. If you do this, take a -2 penalty to all attacks, and make an additional attack at your highest BAB.
Combat Meditation: Focus with your move action. Gain a +1 bonus on attacks, AC, or one type of saves, or a +2 bonus to damage, or DR2/-. These last until the beginning of your next turn.

TuggyNE
2013-01-30, 02:45 AM
Fixed. EDIT: Or not. Am I blind or do I have to do something like Report Post and ask for it to be changed?

It's been too long; you'll need to ask a mod to change it.

Dragonxan
2013-01-30, 05:20 PM
I like the way your adding different options to break up how mundane combat can be but a few of these options are already in the book, like coup de grace, I still like it but i'm not sure how well it would work with some of my players, might just be I need to try it out though :smallsmile:

Yakk
2013-02-05, 06:19 PM
What if we aim for theater of the mind?

You are Engaged with enemies you have attacked since the start of your last turn. Note while people who attacked you are Engaged with you, you are not always Engaged with them.

You can Adjust Position around enemies who you are Engaged with without provoking AoO.

Adjust Position movement costs twice standard. Charge movement costs standard.

The Attack full-round action consists of an optional Charge, followed by one or more iterative attacks, and Adjust Position movement after attacks. Once you Adjust Position none of your attacks may be ranged attacks.

...

Downside: While combat is more mobile, there is a lack of way to "lock down" people in melee.

Ideally, melee should be a ridiculously strong control effect.

A problem is that quite often, monsters are better at melee than PCs are. They have more reach and often they have more attacks. In many cases, they even have more feats, because of their large numbers of HD (many monsters have more HD than they have CR).

A measly 5' or 10' reach control effect is hard to balance against a 30' control effect of a Dragon.

...

Too many of your abilities are tied to AC. 1/2 dex, 1/4 BaB and shield?

Tie fighting styles to something else.

...

A lot of the combat moves are aimed at "humanoid melee dude fighting humanoid melee dude, both with weapons and shields". Much of D&D combat is against monsters, and these monsters often don't have armor/shields/weapons and are often quite large.

There needs be more mechanics centered around jumping onto the back of monsters, running between monster's legs, called shots to parts of the body of a monster (with such called shots being easier if the monster is larger -- hitting the eyeball or foot of a human is hard, hitting the eyeball or foot of a 50' giant is much easier), etc.

There are lots of combat moves aimed at disarming someone's weapons, breaking their armor or shield, etc. But this is magical world.

There needs be combat moves aimed specifically at magical effects and wizards. Not just a "wizard slaying stance", but things like cutting component pouches off, sticking your sword not into the wizard but into the spell such that it changes the spell's effect (magic is words and gestures, make your sword part of the gesture by shoving it at the right spot, and the spell changes), learning curses to utter to invoke the aid of an enemy deity or spirit to counter divine magic (while the might only grant miracles to their faithful, blocking the miracles of their enemies may be a different matter)...

...

Grabbing isn't about just grappling. Jumping on the back of an Ogre is a Grab, even though you aren't trying to pin the Ogre.

...

Disarm is just a targeted attack on the enemies weapon. As is Sunder -- or maybe Sunder is a response to a Parry?. Trip is just a targeted attack on the enemies legs.

If we talk about targeted attacks rather than particular maneuvers, and each creature type has a bunch of targeted attacks that work on them, things can get interesting.

Targeting the Wings of a Dragon can now have particular effects. Same with the Eyes of creatures (where the penalties for hitting the Eyes of a same-sized creature are quite large, and scale back as the creature gets larger). In effect, each creature gets a bunch of target locations you can go after.

Humanoids:
Legs and Feet. Arms, Hands and Weapons. Eyes.

Flying critters often have Wings.

Slimes and Cubes might have Attachment points to the surface they are on.

Zombies have Brains that can be targeted.

Skeletons have many of the humanoid targets (but no eyes!), plus the Spine.

...

Parry should be big. Shields should give you one or more Parries per round. TWF might let you Parry with your offhand, and unused Parries can be turned into attacks.

Ideally, Parry should work on both targeted spells and on area spell saves. A Parry might give you a successful save, or might redirect the target of the spell to your weapon/shield.

Melee attacks might get to Sunder the tool that Parries their attack, or maybe that only happens if you have a feat and/or your original attack was a critical.

PairO'Dice Lost
2013-02-05, 07:45 PM
I like the way you think, Yakk. A few comments on your suggestions:


You can Adjust Position around enemies who you are Engaged with without provoking AoO.

One suggestion I've seen to make melee control work better is to make Stand Still-type effects standard: rather than saying that you can move through threatened areas by default and take a special maneuver to avoid AoOs, flip that around to say that movement stops at a threatened area by default (at the first square you enter in a threatened area, if using the grid) and you can take a special maneuver to move through a threatened area without stopping at the cost of provoking an AoO.

There's already the Overrun maneuver which nobody really uses much that could be modified to serve that purpose, and paired with Adjust Position that would make it easy to approach someone in melee, possible to circle around them to flank and such, and difficult to break away from them, which is what we really want to make melee more sticky.


called shots to parts of the body of a monster (with such called shots being easier if the monster is larger -- hitting the eyeball or foot of a human is hard, hitting the eyeball or foot of a 50' giant is much easier), etc.

The main problem with called shots in d20-based systems is that if the penalty is too small people try for it all the time, and if the penalty is too large they'll just hope for crits, meaning combat is either too slow or too swingy. I'd suggest just requiring called shots to target opponents a size category or two larger than you instead of trying to balance it for two Medium humanoids constantly aiming for each other's eyes. Gaining the ability to inflict called shots on similarly-sized enemies could then be a special perk for roguish types, similar to (or replacing) Ambush feats.


Parry should be big. Shields should give you one or more Parries per round. TWF might let you Parry with your offhand, and unused Parries can be turned into attacks.

Ideally, Parry should work on both targeted spells and on area spell saves. A Parry might give you a successful save, or might redirect the target of the spell to your weapon/shield.

I don't think Parry should work on area spells by default, as the idea of blocking fireballs with daggers is a bit silly. I'd say parrying AoEs should be a special feature of shields only, both to incentivize their use and to differentiate the sword-and-board and two-weapon defense styles a bit more. Also, I'd say Parries and AoOs should use the same resource; using a single resource is simpler, and shield-users are probably more tank-y and so would want more AoOs for control anyway. Otherwise, great idea here.


Melee attacks might get to Sunder the tool that Parries their attack, or maybe that only happens if you have a feat and/or your original attack was a critical.

Perhaps it could be an option for the defender: you can't normally parry massive attacks like a giant's mace or a dragon's tail slam or the like, but you can attempt to parry them in exchange for a successful parry resulting in a sunder attack against the parrying implement.

Yakk
2013-02-10, 09:24 PM
Shield should be able to parry fireballs, even if the effect isn't total.

Parry
You can expend any number of Parry Points to parry an attack. Roll (strength or dex + enhancement + parry points)+1d20, and if you beat the attack roll, the attack misses.

If you parry with a shield, instead add your shield bonus plus twice the enhancement bonus to the roll.

For Ranged attacks, weapons suffer a -10 penalty to Parry, and Sunder damage is halved for both parties.

The attacker can choose to Sunder a parry. If they do so, both sides roll damage. Whomever rolls more damage deals that damage to the other weapon (or, in the case of ranged weapons, to the ammunition).

For the purpose of the opposed damage rolls, shields deal 1d6 damage per Parry point, but cannot damage the attacking weapon.

Parrying Spells
Ranged attack spells: Work like ranged weapons, except Sunder damage is not halved.

Area attack spells: If the spell allows a save for half damage, a successful Parry with a shield will also halve the damage you take, with the shield suffering a Sunder for the other half.

Sunder Deal damage to the weapon. If there is leftover damage on the part of the attacker, the attacker gets to reroll the attack on the target, and if it hits any leftover damage is applied to the defender.

Magic Weapons and Armor
Magic weapons and armor repair themselves at a rate of 1 HP per round per +1 bonus.

The hardness of a magic weapon or blade increases by 5 for every +1 bonus, and its HP doubles for every +1 bonus.

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The idea is that the attacker, after the parry, can say "I can overpower this parry" and turn it into a sunder. Mundane shields will crack under heavy blows. Magical shields require much heavier blows, and eventually become effectively invulnerable (a +5 heavy adamantium shield has 45 hardness 850 HP and regenerates 5 HP/round).

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Test:
A stone giant does a full power-attack on a level 1 Fighter (16 strength) who is using plate and heavy steel shield.

Fighter AC is 20.

Giant rolls +7 vs AC, getting a 22. Damage is 2d8+32, or ~41.

The fighter rolls to parry. d20+3+2+1, and gets lucky with a 17+6=23.

The Giant chooses to sunder (why not? It is a shield!)

The shield has 10 hardness and 10 HP. The fighter rolls 1d6+3, and cannot match the 41 from the Giant. The blow goes through the shield, destroying it with 21 points of blowthrough.

The Giant rolls to hit with the blowthrough, getting a 11+7 = 18, and kills the fighter.

A level 8 fighter steps up next (8 parry points), in +2 Plate and +2 Shield (24 AC). The Giant charges and does a half-power attack, +13 to hit for 31 damage.

11+23 = 24, a hit (just barely).

The 20 strength fighter really doesn't want to take that blow, and it is one-on-one, so blows all 8 parry points.

d20+19 easily blocks the blow. The sunder occurs.

The Fighter rolls 8d6+6 = 34, which beats the giant's damage and means that the sunder fails. But because the parry was with a shield, no damage is done to the giant's club.

Had the sunder succeeded, the +2 steel shield has 20 hardness and 40 HP, and would have lost 11 HP. The shield would regenerate 2 HP/round until it had full HP again if it isn't beat down by later blows and destroyed.

Sadly, this is probably too complex.