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CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-19, 09:34 PM
Hello everybody,

As you may have known if you're stalking me (stop that, it's not nice), I'm planning on running a 3.5 campaign in which the players are merchants from Fantasy Europe (Fantasy Hanseatic League, to be specific) being sent to Fantasy China to explore new trade opportunities. One of the things I'm aiming for is to make sure the setting feels exotic to them and convey that they really are fish-out-of-water types. With that in mind, I'm going to disallow them from taking any Asian weapons as starting equipment (so no nunchaku, shuriken, kukris, etc.), although they would find them for sale once they've made the trip. That should be easy enough to do.

The question, then, is what to do with the monk. Obviously, I'll be having quite a few monk NPCs in the game, but if I want the players to feel like strangers in a strange land, I'm not sure if I should make it an available class.

One of the things I've considered is to make some changes to the class to make it less "I know Kung Fu" and more "I'm so strong I can KILL YOU WITH MY BARE HANDS". To that avail, I thought of removing the alignment restriction, doing away with special monk weapons (except maybe the quarterstaff), and reskinning ki as more of inner reserves of strength and fighting spirit. However, a lot of the class abilities seem to have been written with Shaolin monks in mind, and I'm starting to think that I'd need to do a lot of rewriting to present it as free of Eastern influences, and then there's the matter of if a monk without many of the class abilities would still be worth it.

So, any advice? Should I disallow monk PCs entirely? Should I give it a substantial rewrite? Should I make up a new class for brawler-types? Is that even worth the trouble (all things considered, I was thinking it could be fun to have an unarmed combat specialist in the party so they could participate in a martial arts tournament)? Would it be possible to reskin everything to work? Where should I go from here?

awa
2012-11-19, 10:06 PM
Unarmed fighting styles have evolved on every continent not just Asia.
No reason to limit monks

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-19, 10:10 PM
That may be true, but the 3.5 monk class seems to be primarily based on Shaolin monks. Most of the class abilities, primarily the later ones, are grounded in Buddhist mysticism (like becoming immune to poisons, not aging, speaking to animals, and becoming ethereal), and I feel that these would be harder to translate into a Western-styled boxer or wrestler without rewriting things entirely.

The Glyphstone
2012-11-19, 10:14 PM
Unarmed fighting styles have evolved on every continent not just Asia.
No reason to limit monks

Anyone can take Improved Unarmed Strike (and Superior Unarmed Strike in non-core), but as mentioned, the actual Monk is basically Kung Fu Movie (all of them): The Class.

I'd back restricting the Monk, because I don't really see any downside. It won't hurt your PCs' effectiveness to be barred from the weakest class in the PHB, and if your players are remotely similar to the average gamer, just the act of blocking it as a choice OOC will attach a 'mysticism' to it in their eyes, reinforcing the exoticism it has IC.

awa
2012-11-19, 10:30 PM
If your starting your game at level 1 by the time they start getting the supernatural abbilities wont they have been in the asian area for quite awhile?

Jallorn
2012-11-19, 10:33 PM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8331781) could be presented as an alternate. It'll probably outclass the Monk though, so you might want to give NPC Monks a boost or find a fix for that class if you go this route.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-19, 10:37 PM
If your starting your game at level 1 by the time they start getting the supernatural abbilities wont they have been in the asian area for quite awhile?
I'm thinking of starting at low levels, probably around 5 or so. Also, I plan to get the players established by doing some local jobs before they get their big trip, so they might well be higher leveled by that point. Of course, I'd be open to the idea of players training under a shifu willing to share his secrets with outsiders and gaining some monk levels if they so desire.

Jallorn: I might have to refer players to that if someone wants to be a monk. It seems like the sort of thing I'd want PC monks to be in this game.

CthulhuEatYou
2012-11-20, 04:28 AM
Use Friar Tuck from Robin Hood as an example and give your monks quarterstaffs and robes.
European monks were often beer brewers and gardeners, and some even "scientists" and educated men coming from universities and the like. So somthing related to that might be interesting as well. Would justify Drunken Masters, unlike the current Monks.

pffh
2012-11-20, 06:20 AM
Wouldn't cloistered clerics work for those sort of monks?

prufock
2012-11-20, 08:44 AM
I'd just restrict the class. An unarmed swordsage is strictly better anyway, and doesn't have that "kung fu potpourri" feeling to its class features. A more "brawler" type could be a barbarian/fighter with Improved unarmed strike. Nunchuku and shurikens are already listed as "exotic" weapons, so making them unavailable outside of the Asian setting makes sense.

You should similarly restrict other Eastern-flavoured classes - samurai, wu jen, etc.

Eldan
2012-11-20, 09:48 AM
The simplest approach, though reallyn ot a very strong one, is to grab a fighter and give him improved unarmed attack, superior unarmed attack, improved natural weapon and a monk's belt. He should be able to keep up with a monk in unarmed damage that way.

Zahhak
2012-11-20, 12:49 PM
It isn't quite what you're thinking of, but real world Europe did have what could be called martial arts schools. They normally taught wrestling, boxing and sword fighting. I think in order to replicate a European martial artist though, you'd basically have to make an entire class. First level improved unarmed strike and improved grapple as class features, after that their abilities are basically going to be about building up the focus on a particular weapon. We often think of the foil type sword as the most common European sword, and foil fencing is the dominate style currently, but in the real world they used all kinds of swords, and even knives, axes, and polearms in some fencing schools.

SowZ
2012-11-21, 03:17 AM
I'm thinking of starting at low levels, probably around 5 or so. Also, I plan to get the players established by doing some local jobs before they get their big trip, so they might well be higher leveled by that point. Of course, I'd be open to the idea of players training under a shifu willing to share his secrets with outsiders and gaining some monk levels if they so desire.

Jallorn: I might have to refer players to that if someone wants to be a monk. It seems like the sort of thing I'd want PC monks to be in this game.

Since the average person is level 1, very skilled people are usually level 2-3, and levels 4-5 being the edge of skill before reaching supernatural heroic status, level 5 isn't that low unless you have a high-level setting. But yeah, just ban Monk. A person can easily build a fighter as an unarmed grappler type.

Berenger
2012-11-21, 10:40 AM
So, any advice? Should I disallow monk PCs entirely?

Just make them like the average german monk, LASKO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasko_%E2%80%93_Die_Faust_Gottes) - God's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NscAm1Sa31k&feature=related) Fist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdbujjVNg0&feature=relmfu) :smallamused:

Siegel
2012-11-21, 10:49 AM
Just make them like the average german monk, LASKO (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lasko_%E2%80%93_Die_Faust_Gottes) - God's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NscAm1Sa31k&feature=related) Fist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPdbujjVNg0&feature=relmfu) :smallamused:

thanks for reminding me of this piece of ***** television idea...

scurv
2012-11-21, 10:52 AM
Monastic orders are not unknown in European settings. They just focused on things other then unarmed fighting.
But the frier tuck from robin hood example could work. A staff fighting monk. And monks being educated in the day had quite the access to lore due to being the ones employed as scribes (quite often)

Clawhound
2012-11-21, 11:01 AM
Also remember that many people retired and became monks.

"I used to be a commando," said the monk.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-21, 11:47 AM
I'm well aware of monks in Western settings, but those are rather different than Buddhist Shaolin monks (in fact, there's even a trope about it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMonksKnowKungFu)). I agree with the idea that if someone wants to be Friar Tuck, they can just be a cloistered cleric.

Also, wasn't it Little John who had the quarterstaff?

Spiryt
2012-11-21, 12:22 PM
I'm well aware of monks in Western settings, but those are rather different than Buddhist Shaolin monks (in fact, there's even a trope about it (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AllMonksKnowKungFu)). I agree with the idea that if someone wants to be Friar Tuck, they can just be a cloistered cleric.

Also, wasn't it Little John who had the quarterstaff?

All of them Merrymen traditionally had quarterstaffs, those were simple, yet effective weapons.

As far as OP goes, I think that 'European' fighting monk should probably just have Fighter/Paladin/Warrior/whatever levels, mixed up with praying, writing, herbs, mendicants and other monk 'abilities'. :smallbiggrin:

Ye Olde Medievale Monks certainly could fight well quite often, but obviously we don't know about any specifically 'martial' orders that later gathered Kung-fu Hollywood mysticism around them.

I. 33 (http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/i33/i33.htm)

Dust Bunny
2012-11-21, 12:29 PM
One possibility--look at Savate. Admittedly, it doesn't have some of the more stereotypical "Oh, look, I'm a monk" abilities, but it is a good foundation for a European monk.

Immunity to poisons could simply be translated as a CON bonus. Etheriality won't work, but it will translate as an AC or Reflex save bonus. Cleave and Great Cleave, one-hit disabling strikes, grappling, nerve holds ... it's all there.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-11-21, 12:43 PM
I say don't restrict it. Limiting people to Shaolin monks is very close minded. Monk is just a word in most respects I saw my Monk when I played him as a fallen priest.

Other possibilities:

Hermit living as a survivor
Personal body guard/thug, expert in hand to hand
Survivor
Street Brawler


Boil it down to it's main features you can work something that isn't shaolin.

NotScaryBats
2012-11-21, 02:42 PM
As long as you have Craft (Illumination) and shaved head, you are a European Monk as far as I know. Oh, and Perform (Chanting)

A Tad Insane
2012-11-21, 02:47 PM
Friar Tuck, maybe
He only used his staff, but he could floor most people, in between his drinks though.

DontEatRawHagis
2012-11-21, 02:58 PM
Shepard Book from Firefly anyone?

Dust Bunny
2012-11-21, 03:08 PM
One possibility--look at Savate. Admittedly, it doesn't have some of the more stereotypical "Oh, look, I'm a monk" abilities, but it is a good foundation for a European monk.

Immunity to poisons could simply be translated as a CON bonus. Etheriality won't work, but it will translate as an AC or Reflex save bonus. Cleave and Great Cleave, one-hit disabling strikes, grappling, nerve holds ... it's all there.

A couple more ideas I thought of.
* Eastern monks are stereotypically self controlled, quiet, and contemplative. Make Western monks loud, boisterous, and active--which indicates a tendency toward Chaos, as opposed to Law. (This plays in to my second bullet point....)
* Eastern monks work with ki. Have your Western monks work with some similar principle--perhaps call it "vita" from the word for life, or arete, from the Greek word for excellence.
* Monks have ki focuses--you could even have arete focuses.

In a lot of ways, this will be a class of bare-knuckle, swash-buckling, swing-from-the-chandeliers brawler. Give them a class-name that reflects their free-wheeling ways, make sure you have level bonuses that are level-equivalent to monks, and you're good to go.

Slipperychicken
2012-11-21, 08:58 PM
I agree with the idea that if someone wants to be Friar Tuck, they can just be a cloistered cleric.


It depends on how much magic you want in the system. If a God giving out magic powers is something really special (or at least reserved for the truly devoted), then you'll probably want a lot of nonmagical clergy (experts, aristocrats, etc) involved.

Thames
2012-11-23, 12:05 AM
Friar Tuck was an expert in Pankration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration.

And Yes, Non-asiatic Monks are very possible - it depends on your setting; If you are going to introduce racial and cultural requirements on one class due to setting, be sure to apply the same principal to other classes. If you wish to base this on the real world consider how you will then apply criteria to the Paladin, Ranger, Cleric and especially the Druid and Bard.

Saintheart
2012-11-23, 06:06 AM
As long as you have Craft (Illumination) and shaved head, you are a European Monk as far as I know. Oh, and Perform (Chanting)

PIE JESU DOMINE, DONA ES REQUIEM...
*whack self in head with board*
PIE JESU DOMINE, DONA ES REQUIEM...
*whack self in head with board*

:smallbiggrin:

Morph Bark
2012-11-23, 07:27 AM
Friar Tuck was an expert in Pankration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration.

And Yes, Non-asiatic Monks are very possible - it depends on your setting; If you are going to introduce racial and cultural requirements on one class due to setting, be sure to apply the same principal to other classes. If you wish to base this on the real world consider how you will then apply criteria to the Paladin, Ranger, Cleric and especially the Druid and Bard.

He was? That's awesome.

And yes, the Paladin, Cleric, Druid and Bard are basically unavailable in the Rokugan setting, which is based on Medieval Japan. Wizards are a possibility, I believe, but only in very limited fashion.


PIE JESU DOMINE, DONA ES REQUIEM...
*whack self in head with board*
PIE JESU DOMINE, DONA ES REQUIEM...
*whack self in head with board*

:smallbiggrin:

*eis

:smallwink:

Roderick_BR
2012-11-23, 10:17 AM
Semi-quoting Roy: "What is this... Asia, you speak of?"
Just allow. It's a specific training for a type of combat without heavy armor or weapon. You may have it be a specific country or region thing, or just let every place have it's own style. You could look those style variant rules, allowing each region of your game world to adopt one, for variety.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-23, 11:44 AM
And yes, the Paladin, Cleric, Druid and Bard are basically unavailable in the Rokugan setting, which is based on Medieval Japan. Wizards are a possibility, I believe, but only in very limited fashion.
I'm basing this setting primarily off of China, with some influences from India and Southeast Asia, because I feel that Fantasy Japans are overdone and that there's a lot of interesting stuff in Asian history and mythology that doesn't get explored enough in fantasy. Not sure how that's going to affect things.

In any case, the players, like I've said, aren't from this region, so it wouldn't really affect them, although I might allow them to roll up a native who joins the party if their character dies. In any case, I'm not sure if all of those classes are necessarily incompatible - for example, I don't see what's wrong with a bard who plays the sitar or the bamboo flute.

Giegue
2012-11-23, 12:27 PM
Yeah, the no bards in rokugan thing was silly. Rokugan, however, was far from the ideal fanatasy Japan setting. The best take on Fantasy Japan I've ever seen was Kitsunemori, which was a 3rd party book for 3.5e. It was surprisingly accurate and really drew heavily from the lore of Japan. It just captured the idea of a fantastic version of Japan very, very well....far better then Rokugan, at least to me.

Anyway...all of this has a point to it. In Kitsunemori, The monk class was turned into a prestige class. I think that, if you want to make the monk more exotic it would be best to make it a PrC that had the entry requirement of being taught by a master, or something. That way, it's not limited, but still keeps it's exotic" nature because it can only be obtained in the Asiatic lands. Heck, you could even tell your players that initially, the monk IS banned only to present them the opportunity to train and take on the monk PrC later. If you don't want to brew something yourself, I highly suggest you pick up Kitsinemori. Even though it is a fantasy Japan supplement it's VERY well done and worth every penny of it's price.

Morph Bark
2012-11-23, 01:44 PM
I'm basing this setting primarily off of China, with some influences from India and Southeast Asia, because I feel that Fantasy Japans are overdone and that there's a lot of interesting stuff in Asian history and mythology that doesn't get explored enough in fantasy. Not sure how that's going to affect things.

Well, I presume Wu Jen would replace Wizards? Wu Jen are based on mainland Asia's mythology, supposedly (there were alternative names in the Oriental Adventures book even that drew from other Asian languages), including the five elements being different from Europe's/Japan's.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-23, 03:00 PM
Well, I presume Wu Jen would replace Wizards? Wu Jen are based on mainland Asia's mythology, supposedly (there were alternative names in the Oriental Adventures book even that drew from other Asian languages), including the five elements being different from Europe's/Japan's.
Yeah, that'd probably work. I was going to look at Oriental Adventures to see if there was anything I might want to use, so I might have to make my decision after I've seen it, but it's worth considering.

huttj509
2012-11-23, 04:42 PM
I'm really confused as to the issue here. It seems people have different understandings of what's being asked for, and there's a lot of people not on the same page.

Here's my understanding of the OP:

Players are European characters entering a Chinese setting.

In order to retain the "different" feel, the OP wants to disallow the Shaolin-influenced monk class, since if a PC's a 'kung fu monk' they wouldn't be as out of place in an Asian setting.

However, the OP would prefer to leave options available, and is thus wondering how to remove the Asian influence from the monk class, leaving the class available while still having it stand out from the society around it.

Hjolnai
2012-11-23, 05:08 PM
If you want a PC to be able to fight in martial arts tournaments, I suggest giving Fighter-types bonuses for grappling. Why? Well, that was one of the best ways to deal with armoured knights - pin them in a position where you can put a dagger through their eyeslot. Hence grappling was an important part of military training.

That lets you have competitive unarmed PCs without requiring anyone to choose a monk-like class.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-23, 06:10 PM
Here's my understanding of the OP:

Players are European characters entering a Chinese setting.

In order to retain the "different" feel, the OP wants to disallow the Shaolin-influenced monk class, since if a PC's a 'kung fu monk' they wouldn't be as out of place in an Asian setting.

However, the OP would prefer to leave options available, and is thus wondering how to remove the Asian influence from the monk class, leaving the class available while still having it stand out from the society around it.
That's pretty much right on the money.

It's not that I necessarily NEED to have a monk in the party, just that I want to have some plan in case someone really wants to be an unarmed fighter. The martial arts tournament idea isn't a necessity, it was just a potential adventure idea I could work in in case we did have an unarmed fighter. It's just one of the common tropes of East Asian settings, and I thought I'd take advantage of that. In case no one's eligible, I could still build adventures around it that don't involve participating as a fighter (eg. the players discover that one of the fighters is plotting to poison his opponent before their match).

Gildedragon
2012-11-23, 06:39 PM
Renaming the abilities is a good start, but first you have to figure out if you want the monk class to be a spiritually oriented class or not.

If you want spiritual western monks:
Allow multiclassing with Paladin & Cleric without restriction
Drop ki-strike, replace it with Holy Strike (CC)
Lay on Hands or Prayerful Meditation instead of Still Mind or Evasion (though I'd use Wis instead of Cha)
Allow them to replace Kn. Arcana with Kn. Nature
Ask what are some of the rules of the order they belong to
Monk outfit is a robe

El Dorado
2012-11-24, 09:32 PM
For a visual, I picture Jason Statham's fight scene in Expendables 2 where he's fighting in a monk's robe. It was amazing.

blackseven
2012-11-24, 11:35 PM
Why not unarmed Swordsage?

You can rule the Swordsage's flashier stuff to be arcane powered, and set up the class to be a practical marriage of arcane techniques and unarmed fighting.

Instead of making them spiritual and contemplative like monks, make them practical and very worldly. They train to be hired out as elite skirmishers or some such. Their fighting system is developed scientifically by examining many other fighting systems (including, possibly, limited contact with the Asia analogue), stripping them to their essentials, and blending in arcane enhancements.

toapat
2012-11-24, 11:53 PM
Semi-quoting Roy: "What is this... Asia, you speak of?"

That line was Miko.

Anyway: People saying there has to be a western monk: There is, in dragon 310: Its the Fighter Variant: Kensai.

blackseven
2012-11-25, 12:03 AM
Its the Fighter Variant: Kensai.

Ironic that the non-Asian monk replacement class variant still has an Asian name.

CaptainLhurgoyf
2012-11-25, 12:21 AM
I don't necessarily need monks in this setting to be monks, I'm just looking for a way to present an unarmed fighter in case someone wants to be one. Currently, my best options seem to be using the brawler class, going with Dust Bunny's idea, or just using fighters with unarmed combat proficiency. Swordsages I'm not so sure about, because I want the European setting to be low-magic, while the Asian one has much more access to magic and mysticism. I don't need something to fill the niche of a mystical unarmed fighter, just an unarmed fighter.

Gildedragon
2012-11-25, 12:54 AM
Allow a fighter to trade in armor proficiency for monk style ac, martial weapon proficiency for monk unarmed damage scaling

toapat
2012-11-25, 01:02 AM
Ironic that the non-Asian monk replacement class variant still has an Asian name.

Ironically i dont actually think the Dragon 310 Kensai is actually a better weapons master then normal fighter. It is just that they happen to get free weapon proficiency of something of their choice.

*one rifle through his 7/4/07 CK index later*

yep, you can also then buyback Heavy armor proficiency, and take the Fortification varient fighter. combined that gives you at lvl 20 +100% fort and +5/+5 to Attack and damage with the one weapon you are proficient with. Problem is, the Kensai smaller list and the kensai specific feats are negatives.

spectralphoenix
2012-11-25, 01:06 AM
I don't necessarily need monks in this setting to be monks, I'm just looking for a way to present an unarmed fighter in case someone wants to be one.

Maybe you should ask your players and see if anyone actually wants to play one? If one does, talk to him/her and try to figure out what exactly the player wants from the class, which will tell you what you want from a replacement. If they don't, say the monk class doesn't exist in the West and be done with it.

Zadhadras
2012-11-25, 08:03 AM
You can take the monk and change some names. Call your western martial artist a "Pit Fighter". Your models will be guys like Mike Tyson, Chuck Liddell and Hulk Hogan. Instead of Chi, the fighter works off of Determination. His body isn't forged by mystical powers, but through his incredible training, conditioning and determination. Replace the name of the monkly powers with more western sounding names.

erikun
2012-11-25, 11:42 AM
Isn't there a 3e Monk variant that is composed more of grappling and unarmed fighting, and less on running around and falling down walls? It probably wouldn't take much to scrub the more asian influences out of the Monk class (movement speed, slow fall, empty body) and replace them with more greco-roman wrestling style abilities.

Starbuck_II
2012-11-25, 11:56 AM
Hello everybody,

As you may have known if you're stalking me (stop that, it's not nice), I'm planning on running a 3.5 campaign in which the players are merchants from Fantasy Europe (Fantasy Hanseatic League, to be specific) being sent to Fantasy China to explore new trade opportunities. One of the things I'm aiming for is to make sure the setting feels exotic to them and convey that they really are fish-out-of-water types. With that in mind, I'm going to disallow them from taking any Asian weapons as starting equipment (so no nunchaku, shuriken, kukris, etc.), although they would find them for sale once they've made the trip. That should be easy enough to do.

So, any advice? Should I disallow monk PCs entirely? Should I give it a substantial rewrite? Should I make up a new class for brawler-types? Is that even worth the trouble (all things considered, I was thinking it could be fun to have an unarmed combat specialist in the party so they could participate in a martial arts tournament)? Would it be possible to reskin everything to work? Where should I go from here?

Let them Flurry with all simple weapons and darts, make them proficient with all simple weapons and darts, and that covers the weapon issue.

Really most of monk exotic weapons are just simple weapons that can be flurried. Darts are the simple version of shuriken, sickle are the simple version of kama (no change except flurry), sais provide no bonus to disarm contrary to discription (because they are light weapons), etc.

Hanuman
2012-11-25, 12:35 PM
Religious and proficient with unarmed strikes.
Monks came from fascist cultural suppression forcing martial art to take shelter within temples. There's no actual link between the martial arts and religion, but it may be a large reason why a huge amount of blanket terms exist to describe difficult to describe martial art principles that require large amounts of study most people are unwilling, unable to do or haven't done yet as a prerequisite.

Physics, anatomy, physiology, tensegrity, nutrition, dance, cellular biology and neurology are all great fields to lead into martial arts with as it's best to learn the body before you start shaping it and using application of principles you haven't actually learned.

What you don't see in DnD much is weapon an unarmed strikes being used together seamlessly, and not in the Monk's flailing of blows. Would be nice to get some combos in with the monk if you hit multiple times.

hamishspence
2012-11-25, 05:53 PM
Friar Tuck, maybe
He only used his staff, but he could floor most people, in between his drinks though.

In the first encounter he has with Robin he duels him to a standstill with his sword.

Starshade
2012-11-25, 06:30 PM
Hm, I think outcasts and hermits, and lower classes make a good source of unarmed martial artists, not all is rich, or want to carry weapons, but train some unarmed martial art is often possible.
Outside having some temples teach unarmed fighting (could be some gods don't believe in raising weapons, or something like it?), I imagine some influence from Githzerai, or other unusual race could be a good source. (I don't mean having Githzerai's everywhere, just one or two as an Order's "Yoda" so to say).

Morph Bark
2012-11-26, 07:15 AM
Isn't there a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian variant that trades out stuff for IUS progression? I think it's even in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD.

TuggyNE
2012-11-26, 08:08 PM
Isn't there a Druid, Ranger or Barbarian variant that trades out stuff for IUS progression? I think it's even in Unearthed Arcana and the SRD.

There might be, but UA's variants don't contain that: the class variants that take from Monk borrow other things like AC bonus and fast movement.

The_Shaman
2012-11-27, 10:15 AM
Let's look at it this way: what parts of the monk class are the OP's players interested in?

I'd say that fighters, especially PF fighters (I've switched to PF for my 3e needs, really), rangers and a few others can do many of the things a monk can. The discipline or lack thereof should not have been a fixed class feature to begin with - imo if your class powers are not contingent on a conscious higher authority (i.e. a deity) that can rescind them at will, alignment is not necessarily an issue.

If they want a more monastic "feel" for their warriors, well, Europe was not exactly lacking in these either. Look at the various orders that came up in defense of the Crusader States, in Spain and elsewhere. They tended to fight with "real" armor and weapons because, well, they did not have any problem in doing so. Many martial arts traditions arose from people who had to deal with either not having access to, or being forbidden from using "real" weapons and armor.

So:
- flurry can be matched by TWF and various other feats that give more attacks in certain situations (i.e. the bounding blitz chain).
- the various ki options can be represented as inspiration or grit, there is a 3.5 class working off inspiration (I think it appeared in dungeonscape)
- higher unarmed damage can be handled by feats and, if in PF, by weapon training. A brawler archetype PF fighter can put out some very, very serious unarmed damage.
- being able to fight better in light or nor armor, well, that can be imported or handled via a PrC mechanic like what the Duelist has.

tbok1992
2012-11-27, 12:07 PM
I'd say if you wanted a non-asiatic monk, you might want to use the stars of those cheezy martial arts movies from the 80s as your models, IE. Steven Segal, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Cynthia Rothrock, Patrick Swaze in Roadhouse, ect. But, that's just me.

Flame of Anor
2012-11-29, 01:42 AM
Ye Olde Medievale Monks certainly could fight well quite often, but obviously we don't know about any specifically 'martial' orders that later gathered Kung-fu Hollywood mysticism around them.

I would say the Knights Templar gathered at least as much Hollywood mysticism as any Oriental monastic order.

Demonix
2012-11-29, 10:52 PM
I don't see a need to restrict the monk class in this case as long as the player understands that his character wont necessarily fit the idea of the monk as presented. Most of the Monk's abilities can be described as superior physical conditioning or the result of a special (but easily acquired)diet practiced by his particular 'order'. there may even be some prestige or alternate templates that give a more european feel, and others that you simply cant take.