What do you think of Call of Cthulhu-rpg?

[Raimun]

I happened to play Call of Cthulhu-rpg recently and I have to say, I wasn't that impressed.

Now, I've read a few Cthulhu-stories. I'm not a big fan but I liked the ones I red and I do see the appeal of the mythos. The setting of these stories was intense and unsettling. As pieces of literature, the mythos is brilliant.

However, I don't really think the mythos makes a very good rpg. My main problem with the game is, as strange as it is, that "going against" eldritch abominations of immense power and their big stealth army of fanatically devoted cultists is kind of... boring.

Let me explain. First of all, the player characters are all regular human beings, with no knowledge of what's lurking in the shadows. They're unprepared, unpowered and seriously outnumbered. Second, the things that are trying to kill them during the game have all the imaginable tactical advantages, including the element of surprise. I can do the math. You'll be dead or worse.

It kind of kills the tension if you know the general outcome from the very beginning.

Basically, the only way to even survive is to avoid confrontations (like any sensible and normal human being) and use your head. I get that. I was an elderly academic type and I did try to approach the game this way. Let me tell you, even that doesn't work so well. The cultists (or worse) will become aware of a strange little group that's asking too many questions and they will act. :smallsigh:

Also, the setting kind of limits my effectiveness. If I'm supposed to make and play a regular human being, I will make and play a regular human being. Not a Sherlock Holmes, Rambo or Batman. I can't prepare for danger at the start, without breaking character. Once my character is aware of the danger, I will of course try to survive but at that point it will be too little, too late. I'd like to be alive at least so long I could catch a glimpse of a dark truth behind the edges of mortal knowledge or whatever.

In all fairness, it might be that it was just this one session. It seemed like a mystery at the beginning and we approached it like one, when suddenly, wham! Cultists jumped us at the start of our investigation (we didn't even find any clues or info), kidnapped me and I spent the rest of the game session their prisoner, "off-screen". At the end, we didn't even have a chance to find out anything and I was just told I died, without elaborating it. You try to think yourself out of that! :smallwink:

The worst part is that I might have to play this again. So I'm asking for advice. Do you enjoy games of Cthulhu? If so, what do you enjoy about them? Should I try to approach the game differently?

Ps. Is it just me or is the whole game just a conspiracy of GMs who got tired of the PCs just murdering their level appropriate monsters? It's very convienent, you know...

[Telok]

In all fairness, it might be that it was just this one session. It seemed like a mystery at the beginning and we approached it like one, when suddenly, wham! Cultists jumped us at the start of our investigation (we didn't even find any clues or info), kidnapped me and I spent the rest of the game session their prisoner, "off-screen". At the end, we didn't even have a chance to find out anything and I was just told I died, without elaborating it. You try to think yourself out of that!

Ouch. That's not a good intro. In fact it's such a bad intro that it's a classic "Do Not Do This" in most GM advice sections.

The best approach, in books and games, is that the protagonists get a warning from the cultists. This involves a beating, vandalisim, or just threatening notes to get out of town "or else." This gives people a chance to change tactics or arm themselves before a confrontation. Then, when there is a kidnapping, the antagonists normally talk to, or in front of the victim. This is a valuable tool to introduce information and clues before the attempted escape or rescue. In games the escape or rescue does not need to be a guaranteed success, but it absolutely does need to happen.

Call of Cthulhu tends to work best when the GM is aware of good story writing precepts and tries to treat the PCs as protagonists in a book. Ideally the game should run something like The Shadow Over Innsmouth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth) or one of the other core mythos tales. Your recounting sounds more like the GM skipped over the clue providing NPC and just killed the protagonist while he slept in his hotel room.

That said there is some optimization you can do with a character. But we'll need to know what system and version of CoC that you're playing. The d20 flup and the Chaosium basic PR system are very very different and they are only the two most common versions.

[Kiero]

No interest in horror in general or cosmic horror specifically, don't like percentile systems. So don't think much of CoC.

[SlyJohnny]

It seems like even if the cultists are an organized, intelligent group of infiltrators who always handle threats to OPSEC in an efficient and organized fashion that would make the CIA proud, they still can't murder anyone who might know anything. They don't want police attention; the authorities in Call of Cthulu tend to be a hindrance for both sides, but even the most inefficient and well-infiltrated police department isn't going to take kindly to pagan hoodlums hurting people and breaking things. The Tale of Inspector Legrasse (http://www.e-reading.org.ua/chapter.php/71293/2/Lovecraft_-_The_Call_of_Cthulhu.html) shows what happens when the cultists are too overt about abductions and suchlike.

In most games that concern investigating cults, the investigators and the cultists start off unaware of each other, unless something is setting a trap for the investigators, and even then the motivations at play tend to be more nebulous than "lure the humans into a prepared killzone and ambush them in overlapping fields of fire". The investigators slowly discover clues- eventually they might earn the ire of the cultists, but even then, they're dealing with semi-competent KKK-esque mother****ers, not paramilitary operatives- or they might brush up against whatever the cultists are trying to conceal or summon or what have you, but even then, it'll rarely be a fully-formed threat that efficiently goes about the task of quietly murdering them all. Not right away, anyhow.

[Hopeless]

Its nice for an occasional game, even better if you're playing in a group thats actually interested and not prone to messing around.

Well I've never played in a COC game where somebody wanted to mess around... given this is COC thats not going to go over well!:smallbiggrin:

Played a Dr Watson styled character as played by Sean Connery... well its certainly sets up an image!:smallwink:

Just no James Bondisms unfortunately!

[Raimun]

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

The system used was 6th edition by chaosium. The game listed some skills as valuable for the setting, most of them academic in nature. Since I was going for an academic type anyway, I increased many of them, including a bit of occultism, since he was a professor with a passing interest in those aspects of human culture, whether real or imagined.

I think next time I will make a more physical character... or I will go all Mr. Welch and make a total weirdo, a la people you might read from the papers. Perhaps a "real life superhero" facing the horrors of the mythos. :smallamused:

Edit: One other thing I don't like about the setting or more likely, the expected tropes within, is that it seems to encourage railroading, ie.: "All the players will die or worse, they don't stand a chance and something positive can't just randomly happen."

[Kesnit]

I ran a CoC game with an old gaming group, but have never played in a game run by someone else.

IMO, a good way to run a game is to make it personal. The PCs aren't just random passersby; they were there for a reason. In the game I ran, they were all tied to the case of the first man executed in the state penitentiary - the victim's sister, the jury foreman, a witness, etc. There was a cult at the pen, and the killer in question used the magic of the cult to set a trap for the PCs. They had to find the connection between all of them, find the clues to the cult, and finally stop the trap from springing.

As with any RPG, the Keeper has to be able to adapt to the actions of the party. From the sound of things, the Keeper in the game you were in told the story and the PCs were passive.

The PCs will not necessarily go insane and lose. In the game I ran, 1 PC spent a few rounds counting cracks in the corner of the room (failed a SAN check and got OCD), but the other PCs managed to hold out. Eventually, even the crazy one recovered enough to get back in the final fight and they managed to banish the avatar of the Outer God.

[Telok]

"All the players will die or worse, they don't stand a chance and something positive can't just randomly happen."

That's sub-optimal GMing.

Ok, survival optimization in traditional CoC. You want to play the Great White Hunter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreatWhiteHunter) (warning: TvTropes link).

Simply put you'll play the rich guy archtype that gets to choose his own "in class" skills. You want shooting (shotguns) and dodging, explained by your hunting. Driving and credit rating, explained by your race car driving hobby. Melee weapon (axe) and throwing, because you grew up on a farm and played baseball. You will NEVER learn any ancient language and should only speak English. If you can swing being illiterate that's even better. Do not show any interest in history, art, architecture, foreign language or culture, psychology, mythology, or visiting remote and isolated places. If any of your relatives ever dies or disappears and leaves you anything you will have your lawyer sell it without you ever laying eyes on it. Unless it is a book, then you give it to the old professor type so he can go insane from reading it.

Your kit will be the fastest car you can afford (Hispano-Suiza is good) and an old truck (used - cheap). In each vehicle you will keep two shovels (so you don't have to touch the books and a backup shovel to help bury bodies), four axes, a double barrled 12-gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot, a semiautomatic shotgun with a shoulder strap and loaded with slugs, ten sticks of dynamite, thirty feet of primer cord, two lighters, a full box of strike anywhere matches, electric and oil lanterns, an animal net, twenty feet of chain, several padlocks (keys in the glove compartment), and two first aid kits. The truck will have two sealed 55 gallon droms of gasoline in the back. In America during the 1920s there were still rural towns that did not have gas stations or regular fuel deliverys, plus a burning truck with ten sticks of dynamite and 100 gollons of gas should be enought to disrupt most evil ceremonies.

Never go somewhere alone, shoot first, run if that didn't stop it, and don't be afraid to leave the others behind (but always take at least one of them with you).

[Driderman]

Sounds like the OP had a case of a GM that didn't really understand the point of Call of Cthulhu. It plays a lot differently than your regular sword and board fantasy hero games and no, survival isn't guaranteed.
It's supposed to be that way and although the protagonists of a Call game can certainly triumph, death or insanity are supposed to be very real risks in the world of the Cthulhu mythos.

The case of an abducted, elderly academic is pretty much a staple of Cthulhu stories (or pulp, but they're closely related so there's that) but having the abducted character be a PC that pretty much gets locked out of the rest of the game smacks of inexperienced GM.

SlyJohnny makes some very good points and I'd elaborate by saying that if your GM tells you to play average people in an average world and then proceeds to spring killer-cultists with no regard for or fear of the authorities, the GM has (hopefully unwittingly) stacked the game against you from the start.
In a Call of Cthulhu game, the mundane authorities of the world are very real obstacles that hinder and help both protagonists and antagonists and the GM has to take this into consideration; Nobody wants to play a game of "the crazy cultists murder you all, but are then apprehended by the police so they didn't get to summon the Great Abomination anyway, game over for all!", at least not very often :smalltongue:

In the end, it sounds to me like your GM went into the Call game with the mindset for something completely different (like D&D) and that's what caused your problems, more than the game itself.
Call of Cthulhu, in my opinion, is best for shorter campaigns or just multi-session stories, as repeated character death or institutionalisation during a longer campaign can devalue the shock-factor of it.

Also, I hope you're joking Telok cause taking all those precautions is pretty much the epitome of a D&D "Kick in the door" approach to Call of Cthulhu which, in my opinion, is kinda ruining the whole point of the game...
Of course, to each their own :smallsmile:

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Every time I hear about Call of Cthulhu, I think of this (http://thekitchensink123.blogspot.com/2012/01/call-of-cthulhu-review-of-sorts.html). Telok reminded me of it. :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

That's sub-optimal GMing.

Ok, survival optimization in traditional CoC. You want to play the Great White Hunter (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GreatWhiteHunter) (warning: TvTropes link).

Simply put you'll play the rich guy archtype that gets to choose his own "in class" skills. You want shooting (shotguns) and dodging, explained by your hunting. Driving and credit rating, explained by your race car driving hobby. Melee weapon (axe) and throwing, because you grew up on a farm and played baseball. You will NEVER learn any ancient language and should only speak English. If you can swing being illiterate that's even better. Do not show any interest in history, art, architecture, foreign language or culture, psychology, mythology, or visiting remote and isolated places. If any of your relatives ever dies or disappears and leaves you anything you will have your lawyer sell it without you ever laying eyes on it. Unless it is a book, then you give it to the old professor type so he can go insane from reading it.

Your kit will be the fastest car you can afford (Hispano-Suiza is good) and an old truck (used - cheap). In each vehicle you will keep two shovels (so you don't have to touch the books and a backup shovel to help bury bodies), four axes, a double barrled 12-gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot, a semiautomatic shotgun with a shoulder strap and loaded with slugs, ten sticks of dynamite, thirty feet of primer cord, two lighters, a full box of strike anywhere matches, electric and oil lanterns, an animal net, twenty feet of chain, several padlocks (keys in the glove compartment), and two first aid kits. The truck will have two sealed 55 gallon droms of gasoline in the back. In America during the 1920s there were still rural towns that did not have gas stations or regular fuel deliverys, plus a burning truck with ten sticks of dynamite and 100 gollons of gas should be enought to disrupt most evil ceremonies.

Never go somewhere alone, shoot first, run if that didn't stop it, and don't be afraid to leave the others behind (but always take at least one of them with you).

You know, I'd actually like to do all that. I really like a good fight in rpgs (one more reason to dislike CoC-rpg) but I think that's a bit too prepared.

I do like to try and get into the spirit of the game when I try new ones. Also, the others seem to be bigger mythos-fans than me, so I don't want to spoil the game. Perhaps the next time will be better since there'll be a different GM, who has run cthulhu-games before.

On the other hand...


Every time I hear about Call of Cthulhu, I think of this. Telok reminded me of it.

Perhaps there will just have to be a compromise and I will still play a regular human being instead of Indiana Jones. The game is set on modern times, so I guess an ex-US marine corps EOD-guy is a regular human being. Kind of like the guy in The Hurt Locker. :smalltongue:

[Telok]

Oh it's modern times is it? The CoC default is set in the 1920's. Much of what I posted won't apply then.

Seriously though, firearms make getting people dead much easier. 4d6 for a close range shotgun blast to someone with 12 to 16 hit points? Fire fights are are a bad way to go. What I posted above is quite useful if your GM is playing a more D&Dish game or you actually avoid combat and still use the stuff in the kit.

The shotguns were there to find out if shooting worked. If it did then the double barrels of buckshot are about your best bet. If shooting is a failure tactic then you made a big noise and flash that works as a signal and might startle the target long enough for you to run away. The TNT and gasoline are really for terrain alterations like flattening the cultists hideout. None of this obviates the main thrust of the game, investigation and horror, it just prepares you for the inevitable breakdown of human/mythos relations. Real character survival is about not being alone, not being surprised, and knowing when to run away. Fighting does not lead to character survival.

I also do not play or run CoC like this. Simple character survival olny means that your descent into madness is slower than the average character's (in the modules knowing what is going on and failing to stop it costs you sanity too). If you want an... interesting... read then google for
The Insects from Shaggy
or
The Last Testament of Daphne Pickman
or
The Doom that came to the Mystery Machine

by John Biles

[Mordar]

Fair warning: I am a huge CoC fan. I *MUCH* prefer 20s era or Gaslight to modern, but that's still okay. I have played and ran many many stories, including a couple of long-running campaigns.

I agree with some of the other posts that indicate the problem isn't the game, but the setup/style in which your GM ran the story. There are some pretty common pitfalls for GMs in CoC, not least of which is the game's reputation.

CoC is not "Everyone goes crazy in game session 2 and is dead by session 3". Based on the nihilism of the Lovecraft stories, humanity will lose. Eventually. Your investigators are the brave souls that say "Not today." As such, I really disagree with Telok's "Don't learn anything" point, but like the final bit of advice (Don't go alone, if it isn't hurt by bullets, run (faster than your friends)).

CoC is not a story of taking up arms against unbeatable cosmic forces. Simply put, they are unbeatable. The people (and lesser beings like Deep Ones) trying to call the cosmic forces? They're beatable. Sometimes they're single whack-jobs that stumbled upon the wrong ancient artifact. Sometimes they're a family of inbred hillfolk looking for revenge on city-slickers. Sometimes they're a cult of like minded anti-social types who might pose as an organized force/tiny army. But even then, if they were too big or too effective, a bigger, more organized force (like the real army) would take notice and obliterate them.

tl;dr? Everyone plays in the shadows. If the bad guys are too big, obvious or militant, someone up the food chain notices and handles it. The investigators should be handling little fish, or unearthing things and turning them over to those who can handle the big fish.

Finally, CoC is not a combat game. It is an investigation/research game that may include some combat. Thus, every character needs to be able to contribute to "finding things out" but not every character needs to be able to contribute to "whooping somebody's tookus". Sure, after the first couple of stories it is reasonable that even old Dr. Bookenschmirtz might take a firearms class or two and pack a .38 snub nose, but keep it in character.

What can be done to make your game better?

Geez, now that's the hard question. I fear your GM "doesn't get it" and so there's not much you can do to help that. You could always have a chat with him/her on the topic, but I don't know if that'll help. Make it clear that the last time 'round wasn't enjoyable because of the threat being too strong. That a more manageable adversary might make a better story (heck, the books all feature *several* good intro stories) and to save the globe-spanning network of ninja-cultists for later in the campaign. Of course, you probably shouldn't say it exactly that way... :smallbiggrin:

The best you can do, I think, is mitigate the risk by being sure to have a combination character. Instead of a doddering old academic, you could be a Japanese scholar who happened to be a judo champion at University, or a cop-turned-private detective, or a military enlisted person who was assigned to intelligence services...something like those. This was a bit easier with the 20s era game, since it was pulpy and somewhat less overtly deadly (the expectation was bad guys with handguns and maybe an occasional shotgun or tommy gun, not M1s and RPGs), but the premise still has value.

In the end, it really seems like you "get it"...and so it legitimately saddens me that the GM doesn't, and the pitfalls are going to take someone who might have really enjoyed the game and helped it prosper and consign them to the "Tried it, died, lost interest" camp.

- M

[nedz]

I played some CoC a long time ago. Whether it worked or not came down to the DM. It is quite hard to run well. Obviously your DM has quite a lot to learn.

[Telok]

Oh hey, if you're playing modern times try to pick up the 1990s Handbook. It's slim, cheap (well it was at the time), and stocked with goodies. It details forensic stuff, aquiring fully automatic weapons, a two page spread of firearm stats, and the effects of tasers, pepper spray, and mace/teargas on mythos critters. Even better it also has military, para-military, and intelligence careers set out for your character. Army Reserve demolitionist? It's in there.

And that bit about not learning anything or reading the books? It's a good way for a character to survive (mostly-ish, sort of), but not really great for the game if more than one or two people adopt that style. You see, by taking the Great White Hunter approach you are committing yourself to being Dr. Watson to the other player's Sherlock Holmes. But do pay attention to the double-barrel-shotgun-and-run thing, that bit works OK.

[Driderman]

If you're playing modern day Call of Cthulhu, consider looking into Delta Green. It's a Call of Cthulhu sourcebook with the mythos adapted to fit the conspiracies and covert operations of the modern days and it sounds like it might fit your playstyle (and probably GMs too) better than regular Call.

[WalkingTarget]

If you're playing modern day Call of Cthulhu, consider looking into Delta Green. It's a Call of Cthulhu sourcebook with the mythos adapted to fit the conspiracies and covert operations of the modern days and it sounds like it might fit your playstyle (and probably GMs too) better than regular Call.

Well, it's set in the 1990s (or at least, the last I'd seen it hadn't been updated for a post-9/11 intelligence landscape). You could probably use it for more recent stuff, but some of the background information provided will be out of date.

Echoing what many have said here, though. CoC is not a combat-centric game. In D&D and many others, fighting is the plan. In CoC, fighting is what happens when the plan (and contingency plans if you have time to get that far) fails. This is demonstrated in the terminology of the game: PCs are "Investigators" regardless of in-setting profession.

It was my first-ever RPG and was the only one I ever ran a campaign for back in college. The Keeper (GM) is often tempted to bring out/show the players the big bads in the book (Cthulhu, etc.) but that's there for when things go really poorly. One of the best/most tense sessions I ever ran (as judged by player comments) was one in which the Investigators managed to sneak around and foil the attempts to summon some big nasty thing - they still wound up in a fight on the way out of the cultists' lair, but it wound up being against humans (one with supernatural weirdness, granted) instead of a monster.

[Driderman]

Well, it's set in the 1990s (or at least, the last I'd seen it hadn't been updated for a post-9/11 intelligence landscape). You could probably use it for more recent stuff, but some of the background information provided will be out of date.

Echoing what many have said here, though. CoC is not a combat-centric game. In D&D and many others, fighting is the plan. In CoC, fighting is what happens when the plan (and contingency plans if you have time to get that far) fails. This is demonstrated in the terminology of the game: PCs are "Investigators" regardless of in-setting profession.

It was my first-ever RPG and was the only one I ever ran a campaign for back in college. The Keeper (GM) is often tempted to bring out/show the players the big bads in the book (Cthulhu, etc.) but that's there for when things go really poorly. One of the best/most tense sessions I ever ran (as judged by player comments) was one in which the Investigators managed to sneak around and foil the attempts to summon some big nasty thing - they still wound up in a fight on the way out of the cultists' lair, but it wound up being against humans (one with supernatural weirdness, granted) instead of a monster.

I once played a 15-hour Call of Cthulhu horror session where the only real enemies were a statue and the players own imagination. Call is funny like that :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

So, after an another session with all new GM, all new characters and all new campaign, I have to say Cthulhu can indeed work. However, the quality of the game is much more dependant of the GM than any other RPG.

This time, the situation was still horrible beyond imagination and it really felt like we were trapped. Still, the game felt like it wasn't predetermined but was still, or because of that, much more intense.
... And we all actually survived the session with our sanity more or (much) less intact. Except for one guy who made a heroic sacrifice. Except he still survived because at the time he sacrificed himself, we weren't in our own reality. That was because of something... some thing was doing to us. Messing with our minds. I'm still not 100% who, what or why but I have theories... and it's not over yet! Dun-dun-duuun!

I did play the marine and was more comfortable playing a warrior again. While his personality had some movie influences, I was still able to play him as a more realistic person than someone who knows he's playing CoC or reacts to danger like D&D-character.
I did have some guns but I didn't feel like they really helped me that much. In fact, I have the creeping suspicion they made the situation worse after I had to shoot an NPC in self defense. He got psychotic and was going kill another man. I intercepted him first unarmed but had to draw my pistol and shoot him before he finished bludgeoning me to death. That was the only fight.

Whoever was messing with our minds was clearly making some sort of point, because the really weird and horrible stuff started right after that.

After the session he was slightly battered (because of the said NPC) but still mentally sound. Perhaps the horrors of war had toughened his spirit.

[Cirrylius]

I once played a 15-hour Call of Cthulhu horror session where the only real enemies were a statue and the players own imagination. Call is funny like that :smallbiggrin:

Sounds like a CoC rehash of Eric and the Gazebo.

[ohil]

I personally love COC it was the second game I ever played and I played it the day after I played my first one.

One of my favorite scenes is where I burned a priest with a cross claiming he was evil (my character had gotten a magic ring that made me evil an the priest tried to say I was).

But sounds like either your group missed a lot of clues or their were no clues for you to find. A good thing to do is ask your gm after if he could let you know what you missed. That way you can see what you didn't think to do.


On the other hand it needs a good story. If the players are stuck a clue has to appear, and while yes you may get kidnapped and not be able to escape depending on how you rp it out. You GM should of done a few scenes with you to see if you did anything that let you escape or get your self killed otherwise everyone who is caught would just auto die.


The problem with big groups like that is that they never respond with overwhelming force and just kill who ever is asking questions at least not in books. How would star wars of ended if Vader responded with the appropriate force for the death stars being stolen. Bombard the planet. Send a few armies down and their dies the rebellion. They didn't need the plans intact.



Now to counteract the Gm, while playing the way you want. Build a FBI agent while not much power then your still prepared, or a vet. Heck you could be a serviceman on leave and your car broke down in town. You are still a normal guy just little more prepared for the unexpected, and dont go in to the curch that's just asking to die.