No love for Hero?

[Dust Bunny]

I has a sad. :smallfrown:

I use the best, most optimal, most useful game system ever developed by humanity ... yet as I scope the "Other Systems" forum I find nary a mention of it. Not a peep, not a whisper, not even the sound of crickets.

Yes, I speak of the glory and majesty of the Hero System.

* And Dust Bunny stares in wonder as all the math-o-phobes run screaming from the thread. *

OK, it's an accountant's nightmare, combat can be an eternity in hell, and it's not nearly as popular as the system purveyed by the Sorcerers from the Shore. But do we have any love for Heroes here?

[Geostationary]

I played my first to campaigns in Hero. It was fun, but I also used a program to account for my points and powerbuilding, which makes things so much easier. I'm kind of surprised at how little it's mentioned here, but I really don't know what a reasonable amount would be.

[Erik Vale]

I honestly love It and don't know what your talking about for nightmare (other than for on-line play. It would hurt keeping track, with days taken do do a 12 second turn, depending on character speeds, not speeds of posting, but character speeds).

Someone tried to start a game a while ago but... Nothing ever happened with it. I even had a character. Ahh, to games that never start...

[Darth Stabber]

Currently playing hero, but wouldn't pick it if I had the decision making power.
Gurps < hero < mutants and masterminds

Basically I would never suggest playing a game of hero because mutants and masterminds exists. It's simpler and plays faster, while covering the same basic genre primarily (superheros). The other genres that hero tries to cover are even worse for it. Basically it was the best superhero game going and not great at much else, then green ronin printed m&m and I lost any and all interest it.

[Dust Bunny]

Currently playing hero, but wouldn't pick it if I had the decision making power.
Gurps < hero < mutants and masterminds

Oh, I should have specified: I don't play the superhero genre at all. Occasionally I make brief forays into modern paramilitary, but for the most part I'm a hardcore epic fantasy addict.

[Dust Bunny]

don't know what your talking about for nightmare.

That was the original objection of my current group, until they built their first characters. Now they're as addicted as I am.:smallbiggrin:

[Dust Bunny]

I played my first to campaigns in Hero. It was fun, but I also used a program to account for my points and powerbuilding, which makes things so much easier. I'm kind of surprised at how little it's mentioned here, but I really don't know what a reasonable amount would be.

Do you happen to remember what program that was? I use their official character creation software--it's great for fully developed characters, but a bit much for mooks and random NPCs.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I've played Freedom Force, does that half-count? :smallbiggrin:

(I really liked the highly-customizable approach, I just don't think I'd be such a fan of doing all the math myself.)

[Knaight]

I like Hero conceptually, but there is simply too much number crunching for my taste. It's not that it is too difficult (I've played around with HP systems with damage penalties where the HP was the integral of a curve, where penalties were determined by the y value of the upper bound, and HERO has nothing on that), but that there is just so much of it. Still, I am generally fond of generic systems, and if it weren't for Fudge, FATE, GURPS, Cortex, and a few others (most decidedly not Savage Worlds) I would probably play Hero with some frequency.

[eggs]

I like Hero conceptually, but there is simply too much number crunching for my taste. It's not that it is too difficult (I've played around with HP systems with damage penalties where the HP was the integral of a curve, where penalties were determined by the y value of the upper bound, and HERO has nothing on that), but that there is just so much of it.
That's basically been my take on it as well. The math isn't hard, intimidating or offputting on its own (and my main group's made up of statisticians and engineers, so numbers in general really aren't a problem), but when Hero requires a certain amount of paperwork and chargen time investment, and another game doesn't, it takes a danged good reason not to use that other game.

The one time I've seen Hero with that danged good reason was its Luchadores book. I ran a game of that once, and it was hilarious.

[Knaight]

That's basically been my take on it as well. The math isn't hard, intimidating or offputting on its own (and my main group's made up of statisticians and engineers, so numbers in general really aren't a problem), but when Hero requires a certain amount of paperwork and chargen time investment, and another game doesn't, it takes a danged good reason not to use that other game.

Precisely. I'd also note that I am the one official math-guy in my group, meaning I do all the math for the entire group while GMing. I can pull that off in something like Fudge really easily, and can manage it with the likes of GURPS, though it will detract from other aspects of GMing. HERO? That's not happening if I can avoid it.

[Jerthanis]

OK, it's an accountant's nightmare, combat can be an eternity in hell, and it's not nearly as popular as the system purveyed by the Sorcerers from the Shore. But do we have any love for Heroes here?

Well when you sell it so highly...

Personally, it's a game system I've only really heard of in the following contexts: Its book can stop a .22 and it's a more complicated version of GURPS. Also its book cost like, 60 dollars last I checked, although rechecking it was the 5th edition that cost that much and the newer 6th edition is 20... although that edition's size was compared to 'a coloring book' by a reviewer.

It's the kind of thing I'd be happy to play and have my mind changed, but nothing anyone has said about it, including those who are trying to convince me it's good, has made me wish to seek it out.

[Andrewmoreton]

Gurps < hero < mutants and masterminds


I would say exactly the opposite played M+M at conventions and owned the first edition. Terrible system totally sucked .
Have played Hero system (or champions as it was known) since the mid 80's best superhero game available, my go to choice for running any form of heroic high fantasy unrealistic game , Would use it for Star Wars and would prefer to use it for D+D style fantasy than D+D.
I cannot understand the comments about maths, there is a bit of basic arithmetic in character design but nothing beyond the maths ability of a 13-14 yr old (thats the age I first ran it). In play all you need is a few d6.
Using my test subject of a total beginner to gaming I find that she has had more problems with the numbers involved in D+D than Hero system.

For that you get unparalleled flexibility to design any character concept you can come up with , a massively flexible sliding scale for power and a combat system much easier to balance than D+D or Mutants and Masterminds .

For a more realistic game its a fairly poor choice as GURPS does the same thing with more realism.

I haven't done anything with the current edition but that because I was perfectly happy with 5th ed.

[Knaight]

Also its book cost like, 60 dollars last I checked, although rechecking it was the 5th edition that cost that much and the newer 6th edition is 20... although that edition's size was compared to 'a coloring book' by a reviewer.
The sixth splits the core book into two books. Both of them are still about 650 pages of dense text, they can probably both stop small caliber bullets fired by lighter pistols on their own and much more together, and comparing them to a coloring book is ludicrous.

[Dust Bunny]

I cannot understand the comments about maths, there is a bit of basic arithmetic in character design but nothing beyond the maths ability of a 13-14 yr old (thats the age I first ran it).

The maths complaints are mainly (in my experience, YMMV) from folks who don't like math, don't like "crunchy" games, or are just starting out and feeling overwhelmed. There is a learning curve, but once that curve is achieved, it's all fairly simple to run. To my mind, it's not a terribly realistic critique, but a de gustibus issue: if someone doesn't care for "crunch" in their games, they're not going to like it.

One critique I have heard that is realistic is that almost everything must be built from scratch. You want a spell--build it. You want a monster--build it. For me, because I like to tinker, this is a selling point: for someone who just wants to dive straight into a campaign, it can be a serious drawback.


For that you get unparalleled flexibility to design any character concept you can come up with , a massively flexible sliding scale for power and a combat system much easier to balance than D+D or Mutants and Masterminds .

Yup. In Hero, I can build anything. Literally.


For a more realistic game its a fairly poor choice as GURPS does the same thing with more realism.

One thing that I absolutely love about Hero that I didn't care for in GURPS--GURPS uses a semi-logarithmic sliding scale for characteristics. That makes a certain amount of "real-world" sense, I suppose, but (a) it's far more expensive for powerful characters, and (b) it seems illogical to me to praise "realism" in a system that is supposed to portray unrealistic things.

GURPS does have the advantage if you're playing low-level or "normal" characters: costs are reasonable, skills are plentiful and well worked out, stats are believable. But the moment you add things like magic, psionics, "bigger than life" characters, or hi-tech, things get expensive really fast.

[Knaight]

I cannot understand the comments about maths, there is a bit of basic arithmetic in character design but nothing beyond the maths ability of a 13-14 yr old (thats the age I first ran it). In play all you need is a few d6.
You do realize that the problem has been explicitly noted as the quantity of math, and not the difficulty? It's trivial math for the most part, that I'd estimate at the typical ability of 8-9 year olds. There is just a lot of it, most of which is generally seen as gratuitous.

[Dust Bunny]

Well when you sell it so highly...

More self-deprecating humor than selling point. :smallsmile:


It's the kind of thing I'd be happy to play and have my mind changed, but nothing anyone has said about it, including those who are trying to convince me it's good, has made me wish to seek it out.

If you like to tinker with mechanics, have ever felt straight-jacketed by the "class" system of mainstream RPGs, or wanted to build a character you've seen in a movie or a book, it's fantastic. As I've said before, you can literally build anything from a small housecat (one that won't kill an average human with a single blow) to nuclear armaments.

If you don't like to tinker, want to get gaming right away (without building your own campaign from scratch or nearly so), don't want to work with a system that is not as well supported as it could be, or prefer pre-made adventures or campaign settings, Hero is not going to be to your taste. Heck, I'd far rather seeing you play a system you have fun with.

Truth to tell, for all my grandiose talk, I know it's not a system that's going to appeal to everyone.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you like to tinker with mechanics, have ever felt straight-jacketed by the "class" system of mainstream RPGs, or wanted to build a character you've seen in a movie or a book, it's fantastic.

Those last two points fit practically any generic system (although I'm iffy about Cortex and its rules which try to straddle the line between "complete on arrival" and "rules-light" and just make me feel like there's not enough options). I think Fudge fits the first as well, being a modular system.

And the only mainstream TTRPG I know of with a class system is D&D. The next most popular are GURPS, Legend of the Five Rings (L5R), and FATE.

[Andrewmoreton]

You do realize that the problem has been explicitly noted as the quantity of math, and not the difficulty? It's trivial math for the most part, that I'd estimate at the typical ability of 8-9 year olds. There is just a lot of it, most of which is generally seen as gratuitous.

That was not the impression I got. However I don't find the maths to be gratuitous one session of adding up numbers at character design , then less problematic or certainly no more problematic maths than every other system heavy RPG.
I like a solid gaming system with massive flexibility and potential. If you like simplistic or Rule light systems (I know they are not the same thing) then enjoy them you can get the same level of flexibility from them but without the system crunch

[Andrewmoreton]

And the only mainstream TTRPG I know of with a class system is D&D. The next most popular are GURPS, Legend of the Five Rings (L5R), and FATE.

Where do you get the statistics for most popular systems? I am not sure how that would be measured but I would love to look at any statistics you have for that. It would not match my personal observations as I have never seen or heard of a game of L5R or FATE being run

[Dust Bunny]

Those last two points fit practically any generic system (although I'm iffy about Cortex and its rules which try to straddle the line between "complete on arrival" and "rules-light" and just make me feel like there's not enough options). I think Fudge fits the first as well, being a modular system.

Fudge does fit, but for me personally, there wasn't enough "crunch." I enjoy the nubmer-heavy simulation, and missed that in both Fudge and Fate. Definitely a de gustibus moment....


And the only mainstream TTRPG I know of with a class system is D&D. The next most popular are GURPS, Legend of the Five Rings (L5R), and FATE.

WoD has many elements of a class system without calling them classes, per se. Shadowrun, Rolemaster/MERPs, Traveller to some extent. And D&D covers a HUGE segment of the RPG market, even before considering all the clones, variants, 3rd party marketers, and such.

[The Glyphstone]

WoD is more template/pattern-based - I think the Anima RPG is similar, it's not 'class-based' in any sense that someone familiar with the term 'class-based' would recognize. You can theoretically get anything, it's just that specific types of characters get discounts on things.

[Dust Bunny]

WoD is more template/pattern-based - I think the Anima RPG is similar, it's not 'class-based' in any sense that someone familiar with the term 'class-based' would recognize. You can theoretically get anything, it's just that specific types of characters get discounts on things.

Hmmm ... by the same token, a (v.2 to v. 3.5) D&D character can buy any skill, but "specific types of characters get discounts on things."

I think there's room to interpret WoD either way, and while I can appreciate how you reached your analysis, m8ne seems to make more sense, at least subjectively.

:smallsmile:

PS. Is that a shark fin in the popcorn, or a tentacle? :smalleek:

[The Glyphstone]

Hmmm ... by the same token, a (v.2 to v. 3.5) D&D character can buy any skill, but "specific types of characters get discounts on things."

I think there's room to interpret WoD either way, and while I can appreciate how you reached your analysis, m8ne seems to make more sense, at least subjectively.

:smallsmile:

PS. Is that a shark fin in the popcorn, or a tentacle? :smalleek:

Skills aren't classes...you're trying to shoehorn in a game to a descriptor that doesn't fit it for an unknown reason. If a D&D character could buy his BAB, skills, feats, and spell levels or class features individually and at-will with certain characters getting discounts, or if you run a houseruled 'D&D' where everything is a skill check (Truenaming Gone Wild!), your analysis would make sense.

Actual, level-by-level class systems are an incredibly minor portion of the total RPG market, pretty much exclusively d20-based derivatives of D&D and its various editions.

As for the popcorn...yes.:smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

As for the popcorn...yes.:smallsmile:

Oh noes! It's a popsharktopus!

...There appears to be a tentacle poking out of your hat, too.

Hm... There are four possibilities.
1. There's a hatsharktopus lurking in there.
2. The hat is a shell for some hermit crab eldritch horror.
3. The hat hides the tentacles coming out of your head, whether you're a human shell or are being mind-controlled.
4. I am way off the mark.

Taking into account that any of the four may be true...

*throws a baseball at the hat*

[Dust Bunny]

Skills aren't classes...you're trying to shoehorn in a game to a descriptor that doesn't fit it for an unknown reason.

Meh. Perhaps I'm lumping two things together on a questionable association, perhaps I'm just looking at things from a different angle. Or perhaps I'm full of noxious brown stuff. :smallwink:

Actually where the problem probably comes in is, while I am familiar with the story and fluff of WoD, I'm not as familiar with the mechanics. I've only played Mage, not the biggest hitter of the lot.


Actual, level-by-level class systems are an incredibly minor portion of the total RPG market, pretty much exclusively d20-based derivatives of D&D and its various editions.

Huh? Glyphstone, D&D is the market. Admittedly, the last figures I've seen were from 2009, but just WotC D&D products (not counting 3rd party stuff, just what is published in-house) is 55-75% of the market. Once you add in 3rd party products (Paizo, Mongoose, Goodman, Kenzer, et al), you may have 90% of the market, especially since White Wolf had to cut back on production.

Now, if you count solely by titles available, sure ... but to my mind, that seems like comparing apples to kumquats.


As for the popcorn...yes.:smallsmile:

The quotes in your signature do not do the reality justice. :smalleek:

[Dust Bunny]

*throws a baseball at the hat*

Nooooooooo!

For the love of all that is scrumptuously crunchable, do not taunt the hat!

[The Glyphstone]

It's not the hat you have to worry about...or is it? Maybe the old man is like the glowy bit at the end of the lure, and the popcorn cart is the anglerfish...


As for the market share - you might be right, I have no idea what the numbers of actual sales are...but then, 2009 was probably the last time I bought a D&D book, so I'm not exactly up to date on that either.

[Dust Bunny]

It's not the hat you have to worry about...or is it? Maybe the old man is like the glowy bit at the end of the lure, and the popcorn cart is the anglerfish...

Frankly, I'm not taunting any of it. The stars might be right. :smallcool:


As for the market share - you might be right, I have no idea what the numbers of actual sales are...but then, 2009 was probably the last time I bought a D&D book, so I'm not exactly up to date on that either.

I can dig it--I looked at the previews for 4th Ed and decided I was happy sticking with Hero.

[TheEmerged]

It's my experience you're going to find more dislike for HERO on this board than like, DB.

I've played faaaaaaaaar more HERO than all other gaming systems combined myself. Oddly, I got out of the habit a bit when the place I worked started blocking any internet site with the word "game" in the title and just haven't gotten back (also, I rather enjoyed D&D 4th Edition).

There's a 6th Edition now? Can I ask if they rebalanced Suppress? It was too weak in previous editions, then they over-corrected in 5th to the point I essentially nerfed it for my own campaigns.

Also, my experience disagrees that HERO is just a superhero system trying to shoehorn its way into other genres. In fact, I'd say it handles an "action hero" and/or "fighting game" campaign better than GURPS. I've run it in a lot of other genres and the only two I don't think it worked were hyper-realistic modern (GURPS gets the edge here) and, perhaps ironically, the upper end of the superheroic (there are some non-scaling powers in HERO that get weird at the highest levels).

HERO really is less of a RPG itself than it is an RPG creation tool. At least that's how it has always worked best for me.

[Dust Bunny]

It's my experience you're going to find more dislike for HERO on this board than like, DB.

Eh, I can deal. I know I'm playing the best system in the history of the universe, so it's all good. :smallwink:


There's a 6th Edition now? Can I ask if they rebalanced Suppress? It was too weak in previous editions, then they over-corrected in 5th to the point I essentially nerfed it for my own campaigns.

They have. Cost is back up to 10 CP/d6, and "requires end" is a must.


HERO really is less of a RPG itself than it is an RPG creation tool. At least that's how it has always worked best for me.
Agreed! For a tinkerer like me, it's great.

[Telok]

I remember my introduction to Hero. We had a shapeshifting dragon from another dimension, an alcholic Jewish werewolf, a circus acrobat with an invisible friend, a teleporting beam-shooting mutant superhero, and a DIY cyborg tinkerer/mechanic. It worked beautifully, everyone was nicely balanced. The math was no problem either, by the end of the second session everyone was fine with it. Compare that with D&D where after eight years of playing we still have two people who can't get the grapple or metamagic rules right.

[Geostationary]

Do you happen to remember what program that was? I use their official character creation software--it's great for fully developed characters, but a bit much for mooks and random NPCs.

The group used Hero Designer v3, so the maths were not a problem; granted, it used a different edition or something from the 5e book we used, but it only really came up in the martial powers, which were described sufficiently in the program as for that to not be a problem.

I've used it for fantasy and heroic/sci-fi settings, and it's worked pretty well in both. The absurd flexibility is useful.

[Jay R]

I absolutely love it. My characters are exactly what I want them to be. The incredible ability to adjust character abilities perfectly also lets me have precisely the fluff I want as well.

Having said that, I have a Ph.D. in Operations Research (the mathematics of optimization). Playing with math is my job and my hobby.

The crucial thing to realize is that all the math is done in character design. I don't have to divide 60 by 9/4 during a session, unless I'm inventing a new power effect for a Power Pool on the spot.

Once the game starts, you just play the character, as described on the sheet. I have a friend with no interest in math at all. He tells me what he wants, I build it, and he plays it.

[Ganheim]

This may be betraying my ignorance of the many RPGs out there, but...which Hero system are you talking about? I know about Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier), but there's a couple that have Hero as part of the title or one of the common truncations.

[Jay R]

Hero Systems from Hero Games includes Champions, Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, etc.

[Knaight]

This may be betraying my ignorance of the many RPGs out there, but...which Hero system are you talking about? I know about Mutants & Masterminds (mentioned earlier), but there's a couple that have Hero as part of the title or one of the common truncations.

There is, specifically, a game called HERO. It's one of the generic systems that uses an acronym, along with GURPS, FATE, and formerly FUDGE (which is now Fudge, without an acronym).

[Tavar]

HERO system? I really like it. Very versatile, and can certainly support any type of game. Don't have the time to run a game in it, though, and I don't think I've ever seen a HERO game run on this board.

[Grod_The_Giant]

See... everything everyone's saying about balance* and flexibility in character design and fun and relative simplicity to play? Totally applies to Mutants and Masterminds (3e, at least; haven't played any others). In the words of a friend who played both systems, "[M&M] is like HERO, but it doesn't take 15 hours to make a character!


*There are some fiddly bits here and there, as there are in all systems, but 95% can be avoided by a little GM oversight during character creation-- as any system needs, really. It's probably the best-balanced system I've played.

[Dust Bunny]

See... everything everyone's saying about balance* and flexibility in character design and fun and relative simplicity to play? Totally applies to Mutants and Masterminds (3e, at least; haven't played any others). In the words of a friend who played both systems, "[M&M] is like HERO, but it doesn't take 15 hours to make a character!


*There are some fiddly bits here and there, as there are in all systems, but 95% can be avoided by a little GM oversight during character creation-- as any system needs, really. It's probably the best-balanced system I've played.

I don't think "relative simplicity" and "Heroes" are on the same continent. ;)

Now, that being said, character creation is actually the worst of the complexity. Once you're past that (unless you do complex "make it up on the fly" magic or some really odd stuff in combat), it's all good.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I don't think "relative simplicity" and "Heroes" are on the same continent. ;)

Now, that being said, character creation is actually the worst of the complexity. Once you're past that (unless you do complex "make it up on the fly" magic or some really odd stuff in combat), it's all good.

Yeah, but see... I'm pretty sure the reason that M&M, say, gets talked up more than HERO is that M&M does all the stuff that HERO claims to do much more simply. (At the very least, in character creation/making stuff up on the fly-- I've barely been playing for a year, and I could probably completely improvise a villain so well my players couldn't tell the difference)

[Dust Bunny]

Yeah, but see... I'm pretty sure the reason that M&M, say, gets talked up more than HERO is that M&M does all the stuff that HERO claims to do much more simply. (At the very least, in character creation/making stuff up on the fly-- I've barely been playing for a year, and I could probably completely improvise a villain so well my players couldn't tell the difference)

My only problem with M&M is I don't play anything in the Superhero genre. I'm a die-hard fantasy RPGer with occasional forays into sci-fi, but superhero games never kicked my trigger.

[hiryuu]

My only problem with M&M is I don't play anything in the Superhero genre. I'm a die-hard fantasy RPGer with occasional forays into sci-fi, but superhero games never kicked my trigger.

http://greywulf.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wnw.jpg

<_<


Seriously, though. I just got my hands on a pile of the old HERO books. There's some really nice worldbuilding going into them. Champions Universe has some great discussions on law and punishment in a world with powers (superheroes or no), and I'm really enjoying going through them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

My only problem with M&M is I don't play anything in the Superhero genre. I'm a die-hard fantasy RPGer with occasional forays into sci-fi, but superhero games never kicked my trigger.

...I'm in a campaign right now playing Exalted using the M&M rules as a base. Works just fine. Better than the Exalted rules, if you ask me. You might need to rewrite the Ranks and Measures table occasionally to scale more slowly (at least for Strength), but apart from that...

[Dust Bunny]

http://greywulf.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wnw.jpg

<_<

I've been eying that, but when I mentioned changing systems, my players threatened to rebel. Violently. Someone even mentioned veins between their teeth. I gave in. (I'm a very bullied GM.)

:smallbiggrin:

[Tavar]

...I'm in a campaign right now playing Exalted using the M&M rules as a base. Works just fine. Better than the Exalted rules, if you ask me. You might need to rewrite the Ranks and Measures table occasionally to scale more slowly (at least for Strength), but apart from that...

This is interesting, given that Exalted and M&M use very different core assumptions.

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is interesting, given that Exalted and M&M use very different core assumptions.

Not as much as you'd think. Both assume relatively cinematic gameplay, with players running exceptionally powerful individuals. 90% of the work was coming up with an analogue to anima. We wound up counting up instead of down, but that'd be easy enough to fix.

Here's a link to where I posted the rules we worked out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=14044941#post14044941)

The game's been working really, really well. I played in a semester-long Exalted campaign last year, and had a... somewhat frustrating time. I loved the setting, but was slightly confused and greatly frustrated by the system (I was playing a sorcerer, which Exalted is not good for). This time... it feels good. It feels like Exalted ought to, in fact-- I'm a sheer, utter bad***, but I have to hide it. I can do amazing things, but doing so has consequences.

[The Dark Fiddler]

I've played around with HP systems with damage penalties where the HP was the integral of a curve, where penalties were determined by the y value of the upper bound...

I would love to see this, if you've still got the name and the system is commercially available.

[Knaight]

I would love to see this, if you've still got the name and the system is commercially available.

Sadly, it was partially completed homebrew that I have since lost and/or deleted.