Prosthetics vs. Regeneration?

[Tactfultack]

I haven't seen a topic like this one at all but I wanted some advice on getting prosthetic versus regeneration, for a character of mine who has recently lost their arm (from the shoulder down). We're using pathfinder and I was looking at this page for potential Prosthetics (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/variant-rules/variant-rules-3rd-party/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/The-Loss-of-a-Body-Part/Prosthetics).

I'm debating the merits between getting a magical prosthetic, like a Mithril arm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/variant-rules/variant-rules-3rd-party/4-winds-fantasy-gaming/The-Loss-of-a-Body-Part/Prosthetics/magical-prosthetics/mithral-arm) or just finding a cleric that can cast a regeneration spell (I have mithral but my arm was destroyed)?

All that remains certain is that my character specializes in composite longbows, so I'll have to get an arm one way or another. I just wonder what is the merits and disadvantages of having such a prosthetic limb might be in this case? And if it's even a worthwhile pursuit or if I'm better off taking up regeneration?

Thanks in advance.

[tyckspoon]

If you can afford and acquire one, the Mithral Arm would be the best choice.. it's a +4 untyped Strength at a fairly reasonable price. Heck, after a certain point there are a number of characters who would cut off their own arm to wear one of those. Or both arms.

I haven't checked all of the list yet, but it doesn't look like any of the other prosthetics are as good (Grafted Arm is neat if you don't mind having a freaky ape/monster arm, tho), so if you can't get/afford the Mithral one just get a normal Regeneration.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The big question here is whether or not a regenerated arm is likely to be lost again.

If not, it's the obviously superior choice, IMO, since getting a prosthetic means having a sunder target attached to your shoulder. It's a choice between whether or not to give yourself an obvious point of weakness for a piddly +4 str or not.

If, on the otherhand, this is likely to happen again regardless the mithral arm isn't such an unattractive option. +4 is nothing when it comes with a glaring weakness like that, but it's comparable to, and stacks with, a belt of giant's strength, making it none-to-shabby if you're as likely as not to lose that arm again anyway.

[panaikhan]

There was a wonderful bit on prosthetics in the 2E splatbook on Drow.
Their prosthetics were made of the 'black' adamantine they produced (i.e. very hard to sunder), were purely mechanical (no real bonuses), but offered a little flavour.
People with prosthetic limbs could carry different 'attachments', including dress hands for social occations, weapon hands and utility hands.
Imagine the look on people's faces when your arm unfolds into an already-strung composite longbow...

As far as rules go, there were some nice ones in a 3rd-party swords & sorcery book, about making prosthetics from different materials or by different methods (including a secret society that practiced full-body replacement)

[Darth Stabber]

My last melee character would have happily cut off his own right arm for that mithral arm. Seriously, untyped bonus to strength? I'll sign up for that with my left hand (since i cut off the right one).

[Dr.Epic]

Well that depends: how much to you like the title character of FMA?

[LTwerewolf]

Which book is that arm in?

[HandofCrom]

Be careful with prosthetics. If FMA is anything to go by, it may cause you to be so short you lose a size category.

[Alleran]

Be careful with prosthetics. If FMA is anything to go by, it may cause you to be so short you lose a size category.
"Who are you calling an ant-sized half-pint?!"


Which book is that arm in?
A third party Pathfinder source. It's up on the d20PFSRD anyway, so you don't actually need the book.

[Mithril Leaf]

I personally like 3.5's mithral arm, giving +2 str, +2 dex, and +2 deflection to AC. But yeah, I've made a build based around spending tons of WBL on gaining additional limbs via graft and then cutting them off to put on mithral arms. +100 str by level 20. And a ton of arms for multiweapon fighting.

[Faer Gnomeblood]

Although it is not really a prosthetic there are rules in the 3.5 book libris mortis for undead arm, leg, eye etc grafts that could be adapted to pf they give bonuses typically to stats and some give spell like abilities

[T.G. Oskar]

My last melee character would have happily cut off his own right arm for that mithral arm. Seriously, untyped bonus to strength? I'll sign up for that with my left hand (since i cut off the right one).


There was a wonderful bit on prosthetics in the 2E splatbook on Drow.
Their prosthetics were made of the 'black' adamantine they produced (i.e. very hard to sunder), were purely mechanical (no real bonuses), but offered a little flavour.
People with prosthetic limbs could carry different 'attachments', including dress hands for social occations, weapon hands and utility hands.
Imagine the look on people's faces when your arm unfolds into an already-strung composite longbow...

As far as rules go, there were some nice ones in a 3rd-party swords & sorcery book, about making prosthetics from different materials or by different methods (including a secret society that practiced full-body replacement)


Well that depends: how much to you like the title character of FMA?


Be careful with prosthetics. If FMA is anything to go by, it may cause you to be so short you lose a size category.

Tsk tsk tsk... You only think about FMA? Let's make it better: there's another guy with a mechanical prosthetic arm, and he's more than 6' tall, wields a wicked blade and the weapon turns into a one-shot handcannon. That's definitely a melee character if I ever see one. Ed? That's for the Enlightened Fist that specializes in transmutation.

On topic: that's what you get when you mix 3rd party stuff with an "anything goes" hypertext SRD. A +4 untyped bonus to Strength borders the nice and the excessive, if only because it's a nice boon, but one that hints of "must-have", much like you MUST have a Belt of Strength because the game was built on those lines. It's just right between "it's a nice thing for melee" and "what the heck were those 3rd party writers thinking of?".

On the other hand: why Mithral? Shouldn't that be the province of Adamantine?

[Tactfultack]

Thanks for all the responses!

Although I've decided against it, on the grounds that while +4 to STR would be great, it does provide another weakness, I do not need in this campaign.




On the other hand: why Mithral? Shouldn't that be the province of Adamantine?

Mithral because the golems that tore off my character's arm were mithral golems- so we would have the materials to go off of. And for in-game reasons I'm under a vow of poverty of sorts, so gold is in short supply.

[White_Drake]

You need to target something specifically to sunder it. Does you character wear a long sleeve shirt? Congratulations, any enemies that haven't researched him know nothing about his weakness, thus making you immune to them sundering your arm.

[Tactfultack]

You need to target something specifically to sunder it. Does you character wear a long sleeve shirt? Congratulations, any enemies that haven't researched him know nothing about his weakness, thus making you immune to them sundering your arm.

Yes, it could be covered, but then when it comes to things like Anti-magic fields and dispel, my character would be rendered completely useless, at least combat wise.

[searlefm]

why not get 'Arms of the Naga' as well for en extra set of hands literally its only 56,000 gp
(savage species p 55)

[awa]

only 56 thousand? for a second set of arms that explicitly cant be used to give extra attacks (but may hold a shield) forces you to make a dc 19 save in stressful situations or take a -2 penalty to most rolls. this is a terrible choice.

[Phelix-Mu]

Hmm, well a prosthetic limb does make you very distinctive/tons of flavor. However, non-function in antimagic/dead magic zone is totally uncool, especially if you need both hands to wield your weapon. The strength bonus is cool, but only when it works.

I'll ditto the previous comments on how 3rd party stuff can be very unbalancing. Modified a 3rd party PrC for one of my characters, only to realize later that it was massively unbalanced; ended up giving a level adjustment along with the creature type-change capstone.

In a related note, availability of regeneration and other of the powerful healing spells has always made me wonder why there are any crippled/blind/maimed people in the world. Surely some retired clerics and churches would have had "vaccination campaigns" to remove all health ailments from anyone that lived in any kind of population center. Traveling clerics could easily cure all the abnormal people in a village over a couple days' downtime. It's nice to think that people don't have to live with such difficulties thanks to magic, but it also smacks of some kind of dystopian eugenics program that turns everyone into the perfect specimen of race x.

[awa]

regenerate is expensive. Depending on your level demographics running around and fixing every one could be impossible. particularly becuase any one strong enough to do that has better things to do with their time like fight evil.

also healing a lost limb does not equal eugenics

[Flickerdart]

Yes, it could be covered, but then when it comes to things like Anti-magic fields and dispel, my character would be rendered completely useless, at least combat wise.
IIRC grafts don't count as magic items, but I could be wrong.

[Phelix-Mu]

regenerate is expensive. Depending on your level demographics running around and fixing every one could be impossible. particularly becuase any one strong enough to do that has better things to do with their time like fight evil.

also healing a lost limb does not equal eugenics

Suggesting that high-level characters/npcs and multinational affiliations like major churches are under any major constraint because of wealth is not exactly in keeping with the amount of money that spellcasters can acquire.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it costs nothing for a divine caster to cast regenerate. If you want to buy it from a divine caster, than yes, that is likely to require a donation, but it any big church devoted to healing/helping people is going to be chock full of clerics that want to help people for free/reduce the suffering of commoners. Some churches might even make going on routine healing of the poor missions part of their member's religious devotion.

Between regenerate and heal, most every common ailment or disability, physical or mental, could be dealt with (though there is some DM interpretation here). And while this doesn't fit the real-world definition of eugenics, this would be a way of turning all the people that are normally weeded out of the gene pool by eugenics into average commoners, a good first step in any eugenics program.

I guess the flip side is just that we need some evil churches going around spreading blight, plague and infirmity. *checks list of existing churches in my campaign world* Mission accomplished.

[awa]

That assumes there are large numbers of high level casters who have no requirements on their time other then running around healing people. D&d has the assumption that their are large numbers of dangerous monsters so any one both powerful and altruistic enough that they want to spend their whole day saving people would find his time better spent stopping evil cults and rampaging monsters.

Definition of EUGENICS
: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditary qualities of a race or breed



healing disease and injuries and increasing the odds of "unfit" individuals survival is anti eugenics like the literal opposite. Also neither heal or regenerate would heal say a club foot or a hunched back and they certainly would not removed the genes for them

[Flickerdart]

That assumes there are large numbers of high level casters who have no requirements on their time other then running around healing people. D&d has the assumption that their are large numbers of dangerous monsters so any one both powerful and altruistic enough that they want to spend their whole day saving people would find his time better spent stopping evil cults and rampaging monsters.

The great thing about high-level casters is that they have absolutely no difficulty stopping rampaging monsters and cults while still having time to call an angel or whatever and get it to heal up a few villages in exchange for more worship for the angel's god.

[Phelix-Mu]

The great thing about high-level casters is that they have absolutely no difficulty stopping rampaging monsters and cults while still having time to call an angel or whatever and get it to heal up a few villages in exchange for more worship for the angel's god.

Moreover, the spells per day mechanic kind of guarantees that, during the days when the evil cult isn't a problem (and these days do crop up), that lots of impact can be wrought on the world of commoners. Even if you go by the mechanics for highest level of npcs in a community by population, you do typically end up with a fairly large number of casters living in a city. Over time, it wouldn't be hard to make an impact on numbers of, let's say, blind people.

The real world eugenics relies on breeding, but mostly focuses on creating a society of perfect people as the goal of the breeding. Irl, breeding is the only way to create such a society, but with magic you don't have to wait for the next generation to get rid of imperfections. It was, admittedly, not a usage of the word approved by Oxford's Dictionary of the English Language.

MAGIC.:smallbiggrin:

[awa]

people wont be perfect they will not be sick/ protected from a small array of physical imperfections. you will still have people born with club feet and and weak constitutions.

[Phelix-Mu]

people wont be perfect they will not be sick/ protected from a small array of physical imperfections. you will still have people born with club feet and and weak constitutions.

Actually, a fair number of congenital birth defects come from disease in the parents (i.e., cure the parents, no sick child...gonorrhea comes to mind). Admittedly, it would be beyond the scope of core spells to ensure that a baby was born healthy, but it's hardly beyond the scope of what magic would be used for in a fantasy setting. I believe such spells actually exist in some 3rd party stuff (BoEF perhaps).

Even "genetic alteration" is possible with magic, though I agree that this would be well beyond the scope of the kind of religious missionaries that would tend to the sickly.

To my original comment, I believe I said "smacks of," which means roughly "tastes like [eugenics]," which shouldn't be construed as "is literal equivalent of [eugenics]."

Anyway, now we venture well beyond the original topic of the thread.

[Flickerdart]

people wont be perfect they will not be sick/ protected from a small array of physical imperfections. you will still have people born with club feet and and weak constitutions.
For people with Con of less than 5 (who can't be brought up to par by abusing wishes) there's always Reincarnation and hoping that the DM doesn't roll "badger."

[Phelix-Mu]

For people with Con of less than 5 (who can't be brought up to par by abusing wishes) there's always Reincarnation and hoping that the DM doesn't roll "badger."

DM should always roll badger. At least, whenever it's funny. Which is usually the case. (Where do you think those wildren come from?)

A DM could certainly run some kind of prosthetic as a graft, just refluff the stats for a graft, get someone with high ranks in Heal and Knowledge (arcana) to bolt it on and maybe a spell or two (with instantaneous duration, so no dispel/antimagic suppression), and BAM, mithril-ish arm. I'd still stay away from silly +4 unnamed strength bonus. For fluff, it just runs off the energy of your life force (like other grafts), justifying some small cost in hp perhaps. Now it works in dead magic zones, and you won't have to worry about having a useless lump of metal hanging from your shoulder.

[awa]

"Anyway, now we venture well beyond the original topic of the thread."
I agree this particular topic no longer interests me and i believe all pertinent points have been mentioned.

[Randomguy]

A mechanical arm +4 seems better, since it costs the same and gives +4 to dex and str instead of just strength. But if your DM doesn't let you use the mithral golem materials to make one a mithral golem arm might be more convenient to get.

[Metahuman1]

If 3.5 material is on the table, maybe put a thin shell of Riverine over the arm and a bit of the connecting tissue to make it un-sunderable?


Though if anti-magic zones are the big problem I guess that doesn't really help.

[awa]

isn't riverine a mini wall of force?
walls of force are immune to anti-magic fields (don't ask me why)

[TuggyNE]

Though if anti-magic zones are the big problem I guess that doesn't really help.

Since riverine is a wall of force wrapped around magic water, it'll be fine.

[Metahuman1]

I was referring to the anti magic field apparently making the arm just a lump of immobile metal strapped to your shoulder.

If you had a way to fix that, then yeah, thin coating of Riverine would be just the ticket to keep you form loosing that arm again.

[awa]

excellent point it may be an indestructible lump of metal which is still not particularly useful

[Flickerdart]

AMF is blocked if it doesn't have line of effect, so coating your arm in riverine makes it immune.

[awa]

line of sight get wonky when you do stuff like that because by that logic wearing a stocking over your head so you have no exposed skin means no one has line of effect on you.

it's a can of worms that should not be opened in my opinion.

[Flickerdart]

Clothing doesn't block line of effect to you, because it's part of your person. The reason a riverine coating would block LoE to the arm is because while both items are part of you, they are not part of one another.

[awa]

if their attached to each other then they would be part of the same object.
if its just hanging on not attached it prevents you from using the arm entirely
edit actually by that logic you could protect all your items just be putting a layer of cloth over them. for example protect armor with a tabard.

just wear a shirt and glove and the arm its immune to ant magic

[Metahuman1]

An argument that since Riverine is basically tangible walls of force, and is unique as a result, that you can't Anti Magic it or things it's protecting, could be made. Stuffs pricey enough that it should be fair to get a coating of it and say "Ok, spent this much money and effort to protect the darn arm, can we please let me not worry about loosing it anymore?"

Hell, go a step further and put some traps into the arm that will trigger to use spells to stop things like Disjunction, Targeted Disintegrate, Rods of Cancellation and the like form messing up either the arm or the riverine shell.

You know, if that all works RAW, I suddenly have a hankering to play a character who has all prosthetic limbs to allow for such a hugh con and str boost that I can dump both stats when rolling/pointbuying for them and still be awesome in melee.